Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.
I believe as far as Ananias and his wife were concerned...it was really more about satan being dealt with swiftly.
satan embolded you and put in your heart..to sin against the Holy spirit........
So if Satan is in you God has to kill you? Can't God tell him to leave the person besides Satan can't do anything unless God commands it, therefore I dont see how dealing with Satan is relevant here.
I cannot answer your question, but I believe that "killed" is not the proper term. Yes, they died, expired, gave up the ghost, but I don't think killed is what happened. Still the Lord has His reasons. Sheila's point is worth thought. :2c: :Peace2:
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.
It was to set an example that God's holy calling is sacred and can not be bought. God wants us to give of ourselves freely to God for service and trust in God to help us to do that. Our servitude to God is a result of his love for us not to gain God's love.
God wants our surrender and complete devotion and commitment but out of his empowerment and not our own.
God is not a taskmaster and though he expects the utmost from us it is through the Christ working in us because our lives are hid in him and we are not our own.
Let us not put on a false front with God, and if we come short and we do, then to ask God for help with out short comings but not to pretend in our devotions and service because God knows our motives for all we think and do.
In the days when we had the ark of the covenant it was forbidden to touch it unless you die. The arc of the covenant was holy and precious and thus is our faith in God who has purchased us with his blood. God has called us to him with a holy calling and to be pretensions with God is like touching the ark of the covenant.
Ananias and his wife mocked God with their false piety:
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Surely God will provide salvation for Ananias and his wife but they did reap what they sowed and God chose them to be an example so that we would have true reverence for the Lord.
Now, our walk in Christ as the result of Jesus atonement and it comes at a great cost that Jesus purchased for us. So let us not despise what Christ has done for us by pretentious in our walk.
Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Thank you all for your responses but I still have some trouble understanding some of it. I do understand that God can't be mocked and I am not saying that what they did was right. I am just concern about the severity of the punishment. Ibget that Ananias was trying to trick God but why didn't God try to resolve this issue. Why was Ananias and his wife doing this? Ironically, the second Peter asked this question they were instantly killed. We will never know the answer in this life.
When I read this and that except from the old testament with the carrying of the tabernacle I don't love God more I fear him. This is the exactly the response the ecclesia had when you his happen. I can't believe this is the type of environment God wants for his children.
Maybe I am taking this far more than I need to because of the persona life I had with my earthly father growing up that I can't deal with this type of thing with God. Maybe I think I am better than God because I think with all of Gods power he could think of a better non violent solution. Of course there are people who are going to mock God but is killing them the answer. Is there a better way to teach them that God is better than what they are seeking because I am not getting that message here.
consider what had just occurred...offspring of viper spirits had managed to 'seat' themselves on the religious leaders in Israel....
.....God had sent His son to find the lost[as religious leaders should had been leading the people in the true way of God.]
and restore to pure worship. He had called out a people and poured out His spirit on them...to proclaim truth and deliver them
from error . and right there in the very midst of the people of whom the Holy spirit was dwelling...Satan again makes a move
to seat himself on Ananais and his wife....the very spirit of the liar and adversary coming to destroy what He was restoring and
where His spirit was dwelling.
Paul and Jude speak about 'certain' men..who had infiltrated the Holy congregation.......eyes full of adultery etc....and today
we call them wolves in sheep's clothing. the congregation of the twice dead...represent the power's and principalities adversarial
offspring of viper's that seek high positions in congregations. Hypocritical wolves in sheeps clothing......they come to kill destroy
the flock.
their hypocrisy is not as what Paul spoke of.......the good that I do..I do not do..it is no longer I,but the sin dwelling in my flesh
no their hypocrisy is the very spirit of the adversary on such in operation. God may crush the mind of that spirit speedily.....
......and He most certainly will seperate,bind up and burn all such tares[an enemy has sown them] from wheat.
men are played as pawns of the devil...I am certain that Ananais and his wife have learned righteousness through that swift judgement
of God.they may not have been aware of the magnitude of what satan was trying to do through them at the time,but I am sure they
know now .All men must learn you can not lie to God. Truth must be in our inward parts[or the spirit that is in us]
The lying spirit is the spirit of the adversary...and it seeks to rob and kill and destroy. Jesus come to break up the wicked works
of the devil[liar] And He has all authority and power to do just that.And He give authority to his disciples to trample on serpents
and scorpions,too. whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven...whatever you loose on earth is loosed in heaven.
I see what took place as satan being bound from lying and using Ananais and his wife to do much harm to the congregation...
and Ananais and his wife being delivered/loosed from that lying spirit in order that the spirit be saved.
I'm just sharing some of my reasoning......
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 04:27:10 PM
Thank you all for your responses but I still have some trouble understanding some of it. I do understand that God can't be mocked and I am not saying that what they did was right. I am just concern about the severity of the punishment. Ibget that Ananias was trying to trick God but why didn't God try to resolve this issue. Why was Ananias and his wife doing this? Ironically, the second Peter asked this question they were instantly killed. We will never know the answer in this life.
When I read this and that except from the old testament with the carrying of the tabernacle I don't love God more I fear him. This is the exactly the response the ecclesia had when you his happen. I can't believe this is the type of environment God wants for his children.
Maybe I am taking this far more than I need to because of the persona life I had with my earthly father growing up that I can't deal with this type of thing with God. Maybe I think I am better than God because I think with all of Gods power he could think of a better non violent solution. Of course there are people who are going to mock God but is killing them the answer. Is there a better way to teach them that God is better than what they are seeking because I am not getting that message here.
God makes examples of us in the way that God pleases and though that may be difficult to understand man lives in contrast to the tree of good and evil which they choose to eat of. Man reaps what he sows.
Now, what happens to the tree of good and evil when one has the tree of life? Is there still a contrast between the law of sin and death and the law of the Spirit and life even in a believer?
How are we going to see this contrast and the results of what we sow that God has put in place for us for our good?
The theme of the scriptures is that God is creating Adam in God's image but God wants us to see how that is worked out which is contrast.
There is the old Adam that is earthly under the law of sin and death and the new Adam in Christ that is under the law of the Spirit and life.
There are the heathen and unrighteous and there are the called and chosen who are in a righteous relationship with God.
However, in the righteous relationship realm with God is a progressive relationship of coming out of Egypt through God's deliverance and God delivering Egypt from us which is another deliverance.
Now, in both realms of the old Adam and the new Adam God makes examples out of it.
Jesus is our example and he went through death with us and was a sacrificial lamb without spot to atone for our sins.
Yes, God does make examples of us such as Judas who betrayed the Lord and hung himself. Tell me who does Judas epitomize?
God bless you,
SeventhDay
my thoughts on touching the ark of the covenant. what I take from it is the immense POWER OF GOD and His spirit. and though
His spirit may appear weak and tottering to our fleshly eyes at times...we do not 'help the spirit out' by our fleshly arm......as if
God's will being done was dependant on our flesh.especially by doing something He told us specifically not to do.
sometimes our instinctive reactions[such as an arm of flesh] puts us to death...spiritually speaking.
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2015, 04:50:39 PM
my thoughts on touching the ark of the covenant. what I take from it is the immense POWER OF GOD and His spirit. and though
His spirit may appear weak and tottering to our fleshly eyes at times...we do not 'help the spirit out' by our fleshly arm......as if
God's will being done was dependant on our flesh.especially by doing something He told us specifically not to do.
sometimes our instinctive reactions[such as an arm of flesh] puts us to death...spiritually speaking.
Now, when we sin or think with the carnal mind and not think with our spiritual mind and walk in the Spirit as believers in Christ are we not touching the arc of the covenant and showing disrespect to Jesus who atoned foe us?
Does not God make an example of this for the sake of the body of Christ? :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
all of these expierences of our ancestors are for us to learn by them. I can hear Judas saying ...'O brothers beware the snare of satan
as to the love of money....such sorrow I would not desire for you" or King Saul..o'children wait on the Lord..presumptiousness
is the same sin as witch-craft...keep away from the strange woman,such torment and vexing of that spirit I would not desire for you'
Just as parents today..do not want their children to fall into the same greivous errors...and lessons learned the hard way...but
choose instead..that they learn from their expierences and avoid these .
To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.
I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.
I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 05:31:44 PM
To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.
I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.
I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.
We have to accept the way God is working out his purposes and seek God for understanding and God will reveal what he chooses that is best for us in God's timing.
Here is a scripture that is difficult to understand but it is concerning election and contrast is involved and it is necessary in the way God is operating in creating Adam in God's image.
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Now, we do get understanding for the way God has worked things out concerning Esau and Jacob which both represent types: One is the natural man and the other is the spiritual man. One is the called and chosen and one is not.
However, the one that is called is responsible to work with God to see that those who are not called to God are:
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
We all go through contrast and God does make examples out of humanity but it is for the benifit of all.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
read up on 1John 5;16 too. what if you had the power to kill and make alive? what if the corrupt image had to die so that the new
incorrupt image could live.?
say your child needed a heart transplant[I'm reasoning like a man,here] and they actually had to stop your child's heart[put to death] to
do the transplant....so that she could live? she sleeps[goes unconscious/heart ceases beating] and awakes with her new heart?
unto a healed vigorous life...not the sickly dying life she was existing in before.
what if Jesus was the one who give her the new heart? and give up His life so that she could live?
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2015, 06:09:54 PM
what if Jesus was the one who give her the new heart? and give up His life so that she could live?
Jesus has done that for all and the outworking of Jesus atonement is to reconcile of all of humanity so that they can come into spiritual maturity as sons and daughters of the most high and no one is exempt from this orderly arrangement in God's timing. :dsunny:
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
This one is a hard one.. I think.. I like to merely skim this section in my readings - :eek: :laughing7: Not the proper attitude I know..
I'm thinking it's like with Israel.. and the stonings.. tiny Israel was chosen to be swaddling cloths / birthplace for Jesus.. a place somewhat prepared for Messiah's birth, as opposed to His being born in the midst of tree worshipers or something..
The Father is the husbandman/farmer/gardener, and he does do pruning.. This seed of deceit and disobedience at this important time must have had to be dealt with.. and He knew their hearts and we don't.. And knew the future which would come from it..
:2c:
in man in the corrupted image..you see various degrees of corruption in their flesh..genetics and birth-defects[imperfection] cancers
blindness,mental illness....all multiple examples of a lack of perfection in their fleshly organism. some of the imperfections bring death
much quicker then the 70-80 years of the average lifespan....but death is the outcome......sooner or later.
some are born with defects so severe..it is incompatible with supporting life at all.
under the old law covenant only those sound[whole] in the flesh could serve as priests. leprosy..etc would exclude from
service and ministering before the Lord unto the people. wholeness/holiness unto the Lord to come into His presence was
commanded. When Miriam was stricken with leprosy she had to stay outside the camp for 7 days.
Father only accepted whole unblemished sacrifices[whole heart.mind/body.] that may seem unfair to all us sinsick diseased
men in Adam. BUT WHAT IT REALLY SPEAKS IS THE FATHER"S HEART THAT MAN DWELLING IN SUCH A CORRUPT/SICK STATE
IS NOT TO BE ACCEPTABLE/TOLERATED ....THAT HE CAN HARDLY BEAR THE PRESENCE OF IT> AND THROUGH HIS SON AND THE
HEALING , FORGIVENESS AND RESTORATION OF MAN WE SHALL ALL DWELL TOGATHER>.IN WHOLENESS/HOLINESS
AND PERFECTION....WHICH IS LOVE.
yes...some of these things are difficult to fathom...but it always helps to know His heart motivation;Father is love.....His 'tough' love
at times..isn't always pleasant. But learn we will...for our own good.Our temporary sorrow is nothing compared to what
peace and joy will be ours .
Quote from: sheila on November 19, 2015, 07:12:42 PM
yes...some of these things are difficult to fathom...but it always helps to know His heart motivation;Father is love.....His 'tough' love
at times..isn't always pleasant. But learn we will...for our own good.Our temporary sorrow is nothing compared to what
peace and joy will be ours .
Amen! :dsunny:
God bless you,
SeventhDay
Good question and answers all around :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
When trying to understand the Word of God , It helped to understand that Annias and saphaphia were doing the deeds of the flesh , lying to the Holy Spirit .
the lying and murdering is of the devil [ below earthly sensual and devilish world of corruption ] no flesh pleases God
We Know the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth .
Finding that Jesus Christ come in the likeness or image of sinful flesh and yet WE KNOW JESUS CHRIST IS THE SPIRIT AND LIFE
But we also know Jesus Christ is the very IMAGE and likeness of the FATHER WHOM IS described in the WORD as LOVE , SPIRIT & TRUTH , HOLY AND consuming Fire and mostly to me lately seeing it is LIVING , no death at all , no corruption
Romans 8 No Condemnation in Christ
...2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
there is life i9n the Spirit and death when walking in the flesh
just an observation
God bless
:dsunny:
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals rather forgiving them and helping them improve the actual problem. Also, the story says that the ecclesia were covered due to the incident. I thought love cast it out a fear. Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.
I guess that like most in the Bible, there is more to it than what's on the surface.
The story doesn't say that God killed them.
Acts 5:12 says that through the hands of the apostles, many signs and wonders were taking place. Maybe this was one of their doing. Or maybe Peter drew his sword again. Verse 13 says no one else dared to associate with them.
A separate question from me: Maybe this was a Jewish thing, but why did they take Ananias out and bury him right then?
About the ark and touching it, I've always figured it was a natural thing like when God told Moses to tell the people to stay back from the mountain (of His Presence) lest He break forth and they be killed.. I've never thought of that as "lest I cannot control myself and slaughter them" but that it was an effect of being imperfect, in that His pure Spirit consumes all which is not perfect..
Same with the ark of His Presence.. I figure :smile: :2c:
Today I've been thinking about Ananias and Saphira.. their deaths actually were quite easy (and I don't mean to sound callous) kind of like dying in your sleep, as opposed to so many other ways.. and they died together, or that is together in the same day.. And not one widowed and bereaved.. etc..
And I also figure the next thing they'll know, they will be hearing the Lord's voice and waking up from their graves.. so in effect it will be like leaving this life and being with the Lord.. Likely they will regret missing and sharing in those exciting new testament days.. working in behalf of God's kingdom..
....? :2c: :smile:
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 05:31:44 PM
To answer your question I think Judas epitomizes the weakness of man. It does not seem like Judas really had a choice because Satan went in him just like he went into Ananias. If that is really the case I don't see how it is just for God to kill them and the Bible says we can't question God. I get it God can do whatever he wants but if this is a relationship I need to understand some of it.
I know kill might not be the right word but I don't know how to describe it right now.
I understand that God is teaching us the contrast between good and evil I just don't understand that it leads to death for some especially in this incident. Also, I know scripture says that the wages of sin is death. We will all die someday but that does not mean we have to die now. Ananias is dead and he is not going to learn anything until he is resurrected. I don't even know if the ecclesia learned anything because all the bible says is that they were afraid. I should go read that chapter again. My main contention is that I want to emulate God but I can't punish someone as severe certainly to my own children. I wish the Bible could provide some more context it seown to be missing a lot of important to really understand what is happening. Why is that? Like what could drive a man like Cain to murder his own brother. I know he was jealous but normal people do not do this. Maybe he was a narcissist or maybe he had a mental illness. Who knows. I think maybe it is not important for us but could it be for the people involved.
Judas was "sent" and he was obedient.
I like Rob Bell, though recently he has been sounding a bit new-agey. Anyway, I read a blog article he wrote about this story and some of his main points:
1) Peter was harsh to them because of his history (he denied Jesus 3x) therefore honesty was important to him...it wasn't about the money but about the dishonesty
2) nowhere does it say God killed them, and since the details are left out we really can't know exactly what happened
Here is the last bit of his article, I think it is great:
"Luke wants us to know that the resurrection led to the formation of a community of generous and honest people who gave themselves to the well being of each other, doing whatever they needed to do to make sure everyone had their needs met. They were highly aware of the divine presence in their midst, leading them and convicting them and giving them hope that a better world really is possible, right here and right how when we all do our part.
Is there a God who struck them down? *
Did Peter actually know that they were about to die?
Is this an example of supernatural judgment?
I have no idea.
No one does.
Let the story be what it is.
Let the Bible be what it is.
And then go take care of someone's needs.
And don't pretend you're more righteous than you are.
That'll kill you."
*yikes. I just re read this. I thought it said "is God who struck them down" ...that's how I would word it and that's how he worded it elsewhere in the article.
I think in all this it is worth noting that:
1 - Judgment begins with the house of God.
2 - Judgment can be severe not pleasant - indeed, it is likened to scourging (He scourges every son He receives).
3 - Death does not look to God how it looks to us.
I have no problem with God disciplining His children How He sees fit, any more than I have a problem with an earthly father spanking a naughty child. God's love is for our maturity into the image of Christ and all things tend towards that end. It is not the love of an indulgent pushover who just brings us candy to rot our teeth.
Much of the New Testament was written in code. The story of Hananias and Saphhira is no exception. It is not to be taken literally but instead it is really a funny little story about the early christians. Note the names, Hananias means "God is gracious" and Saphhira means "precious jewel". At that time none of the believers had died in Christ yet and this was the precious jewel of God's grace. Then Hananias died and they found some money in his pocket, so as a joke they said, he has stolen it from God, and that was his sin, and that is why he died. Then Saphhira died and they found nothing in her pocket. So they said she has no gift for us, that is why she died. It was written in code because the Old Testament was also written in code. Remember these were early oral traditions that only later were written down on papyrus or parchment. Either way, God is love and has not punished Hananias, he would have simply asked them to give their money, maybe with a threat of excommunication. But this did not happen so it must be a concealed story like I showed it. The Old Testament is full of these concealed stories. The NT writers tried to produce the same. Condemnation in the sense of damnation without a way out is impossible with Jesus Christ.
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on November 20, 2015, 08:26:26 AM
Much of the New Testament was written in code. The story of Hananias and Saphhira is no exception. It is not to be taken literally but instead it is really a funny little story about the early christians. Note the names, Hananias means "God is gracious" and Saphhira means "precious jewel". At that time none of the believers had died in Christ yet and this was the precious jewel of God's grace. Then Hananias died and they found some money in his pocket, so as a joke they said, he has stolen it from God, and that was his sin, and that is why he died. Then Saphhira died and they found nothing in her pocket. So they said she has no gift for us, that is why she died. It was written in code because the Old Testament was also written in code. Remember these were early oral traditions that only later were written down on papyrus or parchment. Either way, God is love and has not punished Hananias, he would have simply asked them to give their money, maybe with a threat of excommunication. But this did not happen so it must be a concealed story like I showed it. The Old Testament is full of these concealed stories. The NT writers tried to produce the same. Condemnation in the sense of damnation without a way out is impossible with Jesus Christ.
It is certainly important to know when the scriptures are being literal, and when they are being figurative, but to me the narratives are usually intended as factual accounts. Luke prefaces the Gospel - of which Acts is Part 2 - with it being a faithful account of the things having taken place among them. The apostles places emphasis on being eye witnesses, but if they were going to just make up non-factual stories, why does the witnessing matter?
The account above bears some parallel to 1 Corinthians 11:29-31 also:
For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner[a] eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
This again shows the reality of judgment in the house of God - not to be confused with punishing or condemning us for the sins Christ has died for once for all, but rather the process by which the house of God will be brought to conformity to Christ.
Hi Shev,
this is exactly what I would question. In ancient times, the art of interpreting scripture was better than it is now. We either take scripture literally or we ignore them, and both of this is wrong. We must lay out the meaning of scripture by analyzing its language and looking for the words that sound similar. The surface reading of scripture only gives one story, and usually this story did not happen like it literally says, but differently. Oral tradition took these surface stories and used them as a binder for the books, but we must discover what really happened. And if you read the literal account of Hananias and Sapphira, it is easy to see that it is rather absurd. Jesus dies for the forgiveness of our sin and then people get killed for it for small sins and misunderstandings? This should not be because it would darken our faith life too much. It is similar with the mosaic law, it was never to be taken literally. Scripture is not an inerrant guide to life but provides learning and teaching material ... not laws and orders that are binding. Of the latter there are only the 10 commandments which come close to that. And the commandment of Christ to love one another, the only one he ever spelled out. That should tell you what scripture really is, the code messages of a people that were persecuted and needed a cover.
Blessings!
Daniel
Quote from: Shev on November 20, 2015, 07:46:50 AMI have no problem with God disciplining His children How He sees fit, any more than I have a problem with an earthly father spanking a naughty child. God's love is for our maturity into the image of Christ and all things tend towards that end. It is not the love of an indulgent pushover who just brings us candy to rot our teeth.
This is exactly my problem. My father beat me for very little things and it bothers me a lot that my heavenly father is no different than my father. If I do have children I will never lay a hand on them. There is always a better way to discipline a children without being violent. This is something I can't imitate or agree with God.
Hi Aerex, God never beats his children. We are supposed to talk and learn understanding and use our minds together. Problems are supposed to be solved through wisdom and not through force. My dad never spanked me but just once, and for that I have much love and respect for him. Teaching people through application of pain only works out if the force really meets someone with evil intentions. But more often than not this goes astray and the violence hits someone not guilty. Or, it hits someone who would have cooperated had we resorted to civil dialogue. God is a good parent and doesn't think of doing evil to his children. That is what we should learn for our lives too, to have peaceful and wise ways to prevent our children from going all rogue, and that relies mostly on our ability to apply truthful and wise love in our educating of our children.
Quote from: Aerex on November 20, 2015, 03:00:22 PM
Quote from: Shev on November 20, 2015, 07:46:50 AMI have no problem with God disciplining His children How He sees fit, any more than I have a problem with an earthly father spanking a naughty child. God's love is for our maturity into the image of Christ and all things tend towards that end. It is not the love of an indulgent pushover who just brings us candy to rot our teeth.
This is exactly my problem. My father beat me for very little things and it bothers me a lot that my heavenly father is no different than my father. If I do have children I will never lay a hand on them. There is always a better way to discipline a children without being violent. This is something I can't imitate or agree with God.
God only 'beats' the very evil.. If I saw someone abducting a child I would not hesitate to get violent in order to rescue that child from some real horror..
the "rod of discipline" God speaks of is the Word.. Jesus "will rule the nations with a rod of iron":.. it is iron, because it is un-breakable.. one doesn't break God's law, one breaks their self upon it (and Jesus became the broken one for us)
"Discipline" is not to beat.. any parent who beats their child and for small reasons is simply being mean.
God, our heavenly Father is not like that. This life is simply the letting people's ability to choose (tho limited) to run its course, otherwise He could have made us to be robots.. And if He did the choosing for us (other than election) what would the point and logic of that be?
Hence life as we presently know it.. and we all need deep healing from Him.. The laws for Israel, a tiny slice upon the earth, were indeed strict. a place prepared for messiah to be born into must have been needed (as opposed to His coming in the midst of tree worshipers or something). And yes there were stonings.. and the next thing such ones know will be resurrection and the opportunity for and the bending of the knee in awe, love and worship and their transformation..
Yet had witchcraft, rampant fornication, etc been allowed.. Well, Israel has had a hard road.. because Satan (who apparently, also is able to make choices, tho thankfully also very limited) hates Israel SO much.. but God has promised to bless them all the more because of it..
And the wars between Israel and the nations around them.. well, those nations were into human sacrifice, especially the placing of live babies into the fires of Molech.. And what God worth His salt would not want them
gone!
The opposite of God, I believe, is predatorness (dog eat dog, and onward) and is a bottomless pit of potential.. And He has interfered two or three times, otherwise, humanity likely would have destroyed itself long ago. (And we would have never been born.)
It's my firm belief the adversary stands in front of God (seemingly from our viewpoint) and declares to be God.. We can see the viciousness of that one said to be 'god' in the mid east, inspiring great acts of barbarity in the world today, for instance. And the same of anyone who beats others in the name of YHWH or who
take delight in the idea of 'hell'.. they are very deceived.. following a false 'god'. A demon. And, or their own mean-ness.
God bless.. :Peace2: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: anti_nietzsche on November 20, 2015, 10:02:30 AM
Hi Shev,
this is exactly what I would question. In ancient times, the art of interpreting scripture was better than it is now. We either take scripture literally or we ignore them, and both of this is wrong. We must lay out the meaning of scripture by analyzing its language and looking for the words that sound similar. The surface reading of scripture only gives one story, and usually this story did not happen like it literally says, but differently. Oral tradition took these surface stories and used them as a binder for the books, but we must discover what really happened. And if you read the literal account of Hananias and Sapphira, it is easy to see that it is rather absurd. Jesus dies for the forgiveness of our sin and then people get killed for it for small sins and misunderstandings? This should not be because it would darken our faith life too much. It is similar with the mosaic law, it was never to be taken literally. Scripture is not an inerrant guide to life but provides learning and teaching material ... not laws and orders that are binding. Of the latter there are only the 10 commandments which come close to that. And the commandment of Christ to love one another, the only one he ever spelled out. That should tell you what scripture really is, the code messages of a people that were persecuted and needed a cover.
Blessings!
Daniel
So do you think the narratives concerning Jesus happened?
I don't say that to be confrontational, but to me it is a short road between 'the narratives are not factual', to 'the cross is a metaphor, not an actual event'. For if one narrative story is completely unreliable, how can we trust any of them? That is not to say there is no symbolism involved, but to me it is layer upon layer, just as literal feasts have spiritual fulfillment.
I believe in metaphor and symbolism, with the scriptures being so full of prophecy and parable, but I also believe the narratives - especially those of the gospels - were intended as faithful accounts. Yes, there was oral tradition, but the writers themselves were either eye witnesses or friends/protégés of eye witnesses, and this reality of having been an eye witness was taken seriously, as the apostles were indeed charged with relating factual accounts. There are some exceptions, such as the nature of the death of Judas, but these tend to be things that are not central to the gospel, or that the writers were eye witnesses to.
For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (1 Peter 1:16-17)
And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they[e] killed by hanging on a tree. 40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. (Acts 10:39-41)Rather than telling the stones (hard sayings of God) to become bread (sweet, satisfying words), we live out of every word that proceeds from His mouth.
Hi Shev,
well it is my point of view that the bible is really a normal book, some of which is true, some is not, and where it is not factually true, there is symbolism and another level of meaning if you dig deeper into the text. So I don't think Hananias and Sapphira were killed by God, that does not match Christ's grace to his new congregation in Jerusalem. Instead we know for sure that these early christians were persecuted much and they also sought to match their stories with the stories of the Old Testament of which many are allegorical and metaphorical and have another meaning than the literal first glance reading would suggest. But to understand that you need to know the Hebrew and the Greek and cannot rely on a translated bible. The outlayed bible is usually true and profitable to read and know, the common and translated bible, literally read, is a locked book. We must be aware that we have a loving God in Yahweh and in Jesus Christ who do not seek to kill or make us afraid of them, for what would be the point? We have one sign from God, the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that sign speaks forgiveness and love to everyone. So I am binding myself to this sign and know that I have salvation in it. And it explains how Jesus is Lord, as he took the dreaded Day of the Lord on himself so that humans would live and love again.
Blessings!
Daniel
Hey Daniel,
I appreciate your response! I also agree with your comments on love and forgiveness being the sign of God. I suppose this conversation could turn into a discussion on the way God's love is demonstrated, as I believe fully in His love, and indeed Him being love, while also believing that love can be (and sometimes has to be) expressed in discipline.
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:5-11)
My contention is not that God hates Ananias and his wife, if the story is true as told. Nor were they paying the penalty for their sin debt, which was paid by Christ. But if the story is true, and they died, then I have no problem with it being a form of discipline, with God ending their sojourn in the flesh and bringing them into the Spirit realm to continue their learning.
The passage I quoted above could be a kind of manifesto for loving discipline in Christ. It may sound harsh to defend hard things from the hand of God towards those He loves. But to me it builds faith to understand why we are chastised, rather than pulling down faith. If we can see the loving hand of God even in our trials and pains - and see it as compassionate discipline rather than punishment - then we will be prepared indeed for the rigors of life. On the other hand, I believe there is a danger in believing that God's love can only manifest in overly warm, emotionally soothing ways.
God bless, brother!
:dsunny:
Quote from: Shev on November 21, 2015, 09:24:32 AM
Hey Daniel,
I appreciate your response! I also agree with your comments on love and forgiveness being the sign of God. I suppose this conversation could turn into a discussion on the way God's love is demonstrated, as I believe fully in His love, and indeed Him being love, while also believing that love can be (and sometimes has to be) expressed in discipline.
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6
For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."[a]
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Hebrews 12:5-11)
My contention is not that God hates Ananias and his wife, if the story is true as told. Nor were they paying the penalty for their sin debt, which was paid by Christ. But if the story is true, and they died, then I have no problem with it being a form of discipline, with God ending their sojourn in the flesh and bringing them into the Spirit realm to continue their learning.
The passage I quoted above could be a kind of manifesto for loving discipline in Christ. It may sound harsh to defend hard things from the hand of God towards those He loves. But to me it builds faith to understand why we are chastised, rather than pulling down faith. If we can see the loving hand of God even in our trials and pains - and see it as compassionate discipline rather than punishment - then we will be prepared indeed for the rigors of life. On the other hand, I believe there is a danger in believing that God's love can only manifest in overly warm, emotionally soothing ways.
God bless, brother!
:dsunny:
The fact is that our Sovereign God is in control of all influences that come into play in which man chooses from. If God is in control of all influences and God is in control then God actually determines these influences though man chooses out of his own volition.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
You see God is determining the end from the beginning and not man. God made man with the mind he has whether it be a spiritual mind or a carnal mind and God influences both.
Now, God's will is being done in the righteous and the wicked and we who were once dead in trespasses and sin God has made us alive in Christ!
Thus, before we consider the outcome of what choices we make we ought to consider what God is doing that determines what choices we will make of our own volition and what God is doing to create us in the express image of Christ who is God at work in an anointed body set apart for God's purpose.
God bless you,
SeventhDay
In the narrative of acts we see that awesome things were happening and the presence of God was abundantly manifest. It was as if(and indeed was imo) the holy of holies was opened and the saints were gathered within it. To enter that place... To stand on that holy ground... And try to con the saints of God as if He does not see thru the schemes of men was(is) a grievous transgression. God is love...but He is no fool to b openly mocked. The lesson of Annanias and Saphira is that God is awesome and holy and to b respected. He was there in all His glory...to disregard that is to become a lightning rod, imo.
I guess we can mock Jesus but we can't mock God despite the fact they are one in the same. Certainly I am not considering we do this but when Jesus was mocked he didn't call a bolt of lightning. There has to be reason why God decided to end the two people's lives because as others have said it contradicts in my mind what Christ taught.
The only thing that will ease my mind is if this was the only decision that could be made. It would be a problem if there were other solutions and God just arbitrary chose the sword.
it's the sin against the Holy spirit. all things men say against God and Jesus Christ would be forgiven..but the sin against the Holy spirit is
is not[but brings a judgement with it.] Jesus was doing great and powerful works[just as what was going on with the congregation
at the very time of Ananis and his wife's sin] when He spoke of this particular transgression.
satan would perform 'lying signs' to deceive...even the very elect if it were possible. that is the very sin that was accomplished here.
lie to the Holy spirit....a false sign[appearance of holding all things in common] But,that is not possible with the elect..for the
spirit of truth is in/with them...and reveals it.
I,myself.....have had the Holy spirit reveal to me..when someone was lying to me[doesn't always happen...wish it did.] I would hear
'you are dwelling in the midst of deception". the spirit of truth deliver's us from all deception..when we are walking in obedience...
but at the same time I do not have a great outworking of His Holy spirit at this time. Maybe a time will come..when He desires
to do something like this again...and if/when He does..you may very well expect that the Holy spirit/truth..will most certainly
uncover such things.
there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. consider under the Old law covenant..when it become known God was displeased and
someone in the congregation of Israel had transgressed..and God was not willing to overlook it,but desired to deal with it.
the very breastplate and urim and thummin[lights and perfection] uncovered it.
Thus sinning against/grieving the Holy spirit....the Heart of God is LOVE AND TRUTH....and the power of LOVE to overcome all
the power of the enemy requires LOVE AND TRUTH. Ananais and sapphira were overcome of satan in this manner..d/t not holding to a
love of truth/love to their fellowmen. and just as Judas,also was overcome..such lose their position in the congregation of God.
satan like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. Jesus come to 'break up' these machinations of the devil.....and the
helper and comforter[POWER}..most certainly will.
Quote from: Aerex on November 23, 2015, 05:13:38 PM
I guess we can mock Jesus but we can't mock God despite the fact they are one in the same. Certainly I am not considering we do this but when Jesus was mocked he didn't call a bolt of lightning. There has to be reason why God decided to end the two people's lives because as others have said it contradicts in my mind what Christ taught.
The only thing that will ease my mind is if this was the only decision that could be made. It would be a problem if there were other solutions and God just arbitrary chose the sword.
Your question is certainly one for thought. I have read that incident in Acts many times but your question never entered my thoughts. They dropped dead because they withheld and lied, and right after reading about the works of Jesus in the four Apostles who spoke of His love and nowhere did I read that He reacted or repaid in such a way. Yes your question is one for thought, but these thoughts are only my :2c: :Peace2:
Quote from: Aerex on November 23, 2015, 05:13:38 PM
I guess we can mock Jesus but we can't mock God despite the fact they are one in the same. Certainly I am not considering we do this but when Jesus was mocked he didn't call a bolt of lightning. There has to be reason why God decided to end the two people's lives because as others have said it contradicts in my mind what Christ taught.
The only thing that will ease my mind is if this was the only decision that could be made. It would be a problem if there were other solutions and God just arbitrary chose the sword.
In my opinion there are far worse punishments than falling asleep. There are fates much worse than what happened to those two. I don't think what happened to them contradicts what Jesus taught. He predicted 70 AD after all. He warned about God's judgement all through his ministry. He just didn't have much respect for the wrath of man. That's why, I think, Paul tells us to let vengeance be God's area.
Also, I wonder how long God allowed their temptations before they became Chrstians. So, to me there's not enough here to say that God acted suddenly with them. He knew them since they were born and what the very cause and moment of their death would be. It was just their time.
Perhaps that is the answer, "It was just their time." :dontknow:
Quote from: Aerex on November 23, 2015, 05:13:38 PM
I guess we can mock Jesus but we can't mock God despite the fact they are one in the same. Certainly I am not considering we do this but when Jesus was mocked he didn't call a bolt of lightning. There has to be reason why God decided to end the two people's lives because as others have said it contradicts in my mind what Christ taught.
The only thing that will ease my mind is if this was the only decision that could be made. It would be a problem if there were other solutions and God just arbitrary chose the sword.
Jesus being mocked by His enemies is different than God being mocked by two believers in the midst of the outpouring of the Spirit.
And Jesus threatened the Pharisees when they mocked His miracles, "His works are done by Baalzebub", and spoke about it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit and the serious consequences of that.
Attempting to remove the judgment of God from the scriptures is misrerpresenting His character imo. His mercy will overwhelm His judgement, but His judgment is real and to be respected.
IMO God killed them.
" Attempting to remove the judgment of God from the scriptures is misrepresenting His character imo. His mercy will overwhelm His judgement, but His judgment is real and to be respected."
Indeed. Seems the whole misuse of the term judgment and what that means as well as entails causes many disagreements about the purpose of the cross.
To comprehend the mercy one needs to comprehend the accusation.
The law and the grace that follows are the key point Paul talks about. He emphasises the mercy of God as imperative.
To grasp judgment one also needs to understand that this process clarifies in full what has happened, what one should have done, and the need for Christ to pay for those mistakes. Correction is never pleasant- and I prefer the term "serious correction" than eternal condemnation.
I agree Ross. Serious correction is a good way to describe "kolassis"(punishment)
There are several different Greek words that are translated "judgment"(krisis, krino, diakrino) and that is part of the reason there is so much confusion. One emeans "to weigh objectively" while another means "to impute a sentence".
Also "condemn" means something different now than it did in the 16th century. When God "judges" he does not "condemn" beyond the point of correction, and that is His "judgment"- to correct. The word condemn comes from the same root as the word "indemnify" and meant to rectify an injustice or repay a deficit- not to burn in hell forever in torment.
His judgement involves the "whys" of the "wise" purposes of God in all things- which is to set the creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God, and is never about mere retribution.
Quote from: eagleswayJesus being mocked by His enemies is different than God being mocked by two believers in the midst of the outpouring of the Spirit.
I don't see how it is different considering they are one in the same; however Jesus did say
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.(Matthew 12:31-32)
I never really understood
why this is the case considering the responses from both of them are different (Jesus will forgive you but God won't). It doesn't make sense to me, especially since Jesus says you should always forgive.
Quote from: RossTo grasp judgment one also needs to understand that this process clarifies in full what has happened, what one should have done, and the need for Christ to pay for those mistakes. Correction is never pleasant- and I prefer the term "serious correction" than eternal condemnation.
This is making the assumption that man is capable of obeying. It seems misleading that God will judge on things we have no ability of changing or doing right. Of course, Jesus did die to save us from the consequences of our sin but is God blaming us for our sin as if we could have prevented them? Keep in mind, I am not saying God should not judge I just have a problem with the severity of the judgement if there is alternate solution.
Let me provide an example, Peter had a dream about a bunch of unclean animals and Jesus says to eat them and Peter says he should not eat unclean meat. Jesus says do not call anything impure that God has made clean. Later on he decides not to eat with the Gentiles when a bunch of Jews come to a gathering and Paul calls him out. I am not really sure if these stories are chronological considering one if in Acts and the other in Galatians. If my argument is valid why did God just strike him down after disobeying God after getting a direct revelation from Jesus?
Is it because of this verse?
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. (Romans 9:15)
Yes, we should respect God's judgement because they are wise and good not because we are afraid of the consequences if we don't.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 21, 2015, 11:31:59 PM
In the narrative of acts we see that awesome things were happening and the presence of God was abundantly manifest. It was as if(and indeed was imo) the holy of holies was opened and the saints were gathered within it. To enter that place... To stand on that holy ground... And try to con the saints of God as if He does not see thru the schemes of men was(is) a grievous transgression. God is love...but He is no fool to b openly mocked. The lesson of Annanias and Saphira is that God is awesome and holy and to b respected. He was there in all His glory...to disregard that is to become a lightning rod, imo.
:iagree: with this :goodpost: :smile:
I believe this whole life, all of history is a very important lesson (and unavoidable, unless we're to be robots or something). I get the sense that God is life itself and also perfection, and to be imperfect therefor is the opposite of life. And we all would naturally perish. And not only that, but I believe to wander from Him is a bottomless pit (abyss) of potential.. Which this life and history is proving to every heart and mind in heaven and earth.. A truth that needs to be a part of every rational creatures foundation and a foundation lesson for all creation.. Central, integral, unavoidable.. And very very serious. To not learn it, to me, equals to perish. Because imperfection (unholy) is the opposite of life/God.
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals.... Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.
A hot-tempered Peter killed them. Peter noticed Jesus' successful cursing of the fig tree, and Peter killed the husband and wife that lied about monetary donations.
Hmm, I'm not going to comment on this yet. I'm just going to ask everyone a question I thought of last time I considered this story and I want you to try to answer from memory without looking back to the story. When you read this, what age do you imagine Ananais and Sapphira to be?
I just now read the account again, and saw no indication of their age. Young men carted their corpses away.
Quote from: DavidFord on August 28, 2018, 06:47:10 AM
Quote from: Aerex on November 19, 2015, 02:55:59 PM
Can anyone tell me why God felt it necessary to kill these two individuals.... Is this the type of behavior we should expect from God.
A hot-tempered Peter killed them. Peter noticed Jesus' successful cursing of the fig tree, and Peter killed the husband and wife that lied about monetary donations.
Verse 4 -
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (Peter said)
Was it not yours until it was sold? And after it was sold, again you had power over its proceeds. Why have you set your heart to do this thing? You have not cheated men but God."
Verse 5 -
Young's Literal Translation
and Ananias hearing these words, having fallen down, did expire, and great fear came upon all who heard these things,
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And when Khanan-Yah heard these words, he dropped dead and great fear came upon all those who heard.
Verse 7 - 11Young's Literal
7 And it came to pass, about three hours after, that his wife, not knowing what hath happened, came in,
8 and Peter answered her, `Tell me if for so much ye sold the place;' and she said, `Yes, for so much.'
9 And Peter said unto her, `How was it agreed by you, to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? lo, the feet of those who did bury thy husband [are] at the door, and they shall carry thee forth;'
10 and she fell down presently at his feet, and expired, and the young men having come in, found her dead, and having carried forth, they buried [her] by her husband;
11 and great fear came upon all the assembly, and upon all who heard these things.
Quote from: DavidFord on August 28, 2018, 05:12:17 PM
I just now read the account again, and saw no indication of their age. Young men carted their corpses away.
Grrr, I thought I was very clear I wanted you to answer this question without looking at the text. I wanted to know how you and others saw Ananais and Sapphira when they were reading the text naturall,y I felt it more important at this point. That said that 'do' in the last line maybe should have been a 'did' to entirely avoid that confusion.
You were clear. I've read the text many times. Do you think the husband and wife that Peter killed: went to sheol upon dying? had dependents?
Acts 5, based on Younan, dukhrana.com
1. And a certain man whose name was Khanan-Yah [Yah is Merciful], with his wife whose name was Shapeera [Beauty], sold his field. 2. And he took from its sale price and he hid it while his wife knew of it. And he brought with him some of the money [or: silver] and placed it before the feet of the Shelikha [Apostles]. 3. And Shimon said to him, "Khanan-Yah, why is it that Satana has filled your heart thus that you should lie in (the presence of) the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness], and that you should hide some of the money of the proceeds of the field? 4. Was it not yours before it was sold? And after it was sold, again you were in control over its proceeds. Why have you decided [literally: placed in your heart] to do this spectacle? You have not lied in (the presence of) men, but in (the presence of) Allaha [God]."
[In ancient Semitic thought the heart, not the brain, was the seat of intelligence. --Younan]
5. And after Khanan-Yah heard these words, he fell down and died. And there was a great fear among all those who heard. 6. And those who were young among them rose up and they gathered him together, took him outside, and buried him.
7. And after three hours had passed, his wife also entered while not knowing what happened. 8. Shimon said to her,
"Tell me whether you sold the field for these proceeds." And she said, "Yes, for these proceeds." Shimon said to her, "Because you have deliberated to tempt of MarYa Rukheh [Master YHWH His Spirit], behold the feet of the grave diggers of your husband (are) at the door, and they will take you out." 10. And at that moment, she fell before their feet and she died. And those young men entered and found her dead, and they gathered (her) up, took her away, and buried her next to her husband. 11. And there was a great fear in all the eidta [congregation], and in all those who heard.
Quote from: CST on August 28, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Hmm, I'm not going to comment on this yet. I'm just going to ask everyone a question I thought of last time I considered this story and I want you to try to answer from memory without looking back to the story. When you read this, what age do you imagine Ananais and Sapphira to be?
:Chinscratch: When I read it, it seems to me, I "imagine" them to be sort of 'young'.. no children..
Quote from: DavidFord on August 29, 2018, 04:54:00 PM
5. And after Khanan-Yah heard these words, he fell down and died.
At most, I would say the words Peter spoke may have slain them.. Not an act of Peter slaying them.. I tend to think it was God, aka, the pristine blazing holiness of God.. And truth as a sword..
:Peace2:
Quote from: marie glen on August 29, 2018, 07:36:24 PM
And truth as a sword..
:Peace2:
Maybe this is relevant
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have
to doG2254 G3056 .
Hey MG, look what do here is in Strong's!
G3056λόγος
logoslog'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
Total KJV occurrences: 330
You may be onto something! I remember in Revelation it says He will slay the wicked with the sword of His mouth! With truth..(?) untruth cannot stand..(?)
Untruth cannot stand,
But is like the shifting sand.
:mblush: um, once in a while I feel like writing a poem, but that's all I got..
I love the meaning of the word Logos -
google dictionary says -
Lo·gos
ˈlōɡōs/Submit
nounTHEOLOGY
the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order ( :cloud9: ), identified in the Gospel of John with the second person of the Trinity incarnate in Jesus Christ.
(in Jungian psychology) the principle of reason and judgment, associated with the animus.
But this is my favorite - " 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words." (From biblehub's #G3056)] Of course, "the" logos - God's reasoning! (Infinitely better than man's word!)
....And.. root of the word logic! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :banana:
Quote from: marie glen on August 29, 2018, 07:36:24 PMAt most, I would say the words Peter spoke may have slain them.. Not an act of Peter slaying them.. I tend to think it was God, aka, the pristine blazing holiness of God.. And truth as a sword..
What's your take on this temporary blinding?:
Acts 13, based on Younan, dukhrana.com
6. And after they had traveled the entire island up to the medintha [city] Papos, they found a certain man, a Yehudean sorcerer whose name was Bar-Shuma, who was a false nabia [prophet], 7. this man who a wise man was following who was the proconsul and was called Sargius-Polous. And the proconsul called to Shaul [Saul] and to Bar-Naba [Barnabus] and was seeking to hear the Word of Allaha from them. 8. Now he was standing against them, this sorcerer Bar-Shuma, his name which is interpreted Alumas [Magician] because he was desiring to turn the proconsul away from faith. 9. And Shaul-- he who was called Polous [Paul]-- was filled by the Rukha d'Qudsha [Spirit of Holiness] and stared at him, 10. and he said,
"O son of Akelqartza [Accuser/ Slanderer/ Backbiter], full of deceits and all evils and enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to pervert the straight paths of Mar-Ya? [Master YHWH] 11. And now the hand of Mar-Ya is upon you, and you will be blind and you will not see the sun for a time."
And at that moment obscurity and darkness fell upon him and he was wandering about and seeking someone who would take (him) by his hand. 12. And after the proconsul saw the thing which had happened, he marveled and he believed in the teaching of Mar-Ya.
the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order ( :cloud9: )
7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. :winkgrin:
Beginning also has principle in Strong's, and from there is probably a whole lot more.
Untruth cannot stand,
But is like the shifting sand.
When waves batter on it,
And fires melt it down.
Its noise beats as a snare,
Clanging ever so loudly.
Consumes itself in death,
Makes its promise in her.
But your voice,
In peace and stillness,
Calms the mighty waters,
And their voices at bay.
Your wings overshadow me,
Through them shines your Light.
The quieting of my soul,
Where I lay to rest.
Does that work?
Rev 3;15-17 " I know your works are neither cold, nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
So because you are lukewarm, you are neither hot nor cold, I am about to vomit you out of my mouth.
Because you say,
' I am rich and have prospered; I need nothing,'
but do you not realise you are wretched and miserable, poor, blind, and naked.."
Seems to be like Ananias and the wife.
T'was all about the lies and deceit- pretty much like many claiming to know Christ, but He never knew them.
Anianias was selfish, and his wife knew. They were trying to keep all bases covered just in case things did not go to 'their' expectations.
Rev 3;19 " Those I love I reprove and discipline, so be earnest and repent."
No mediocrity.
Quote from: marie glen on August 29, 2018, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: CST on August 28, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Hmm, I'm not going to comment on this yet. I'm just going to ask everyone a question I thought of last time I considered this story and I want you to try to answer from memory without looking back to the story. When you read this, what age do you imagine Ananais and Sapphira to be?
:Chinscratch: When I read it, it seems to me, I "imagine" them to be sort of 'young'.. no children..
Good, thank you. Any other takers?
Quote from: CST on August 30, 2018, 01:24:21 PM
Quote from: marie glen on August 29, 2018, 07:36:24 PM
Quote from: CST on August 28, 2018, 01:47:02 PM
Hmm, I'm not going to comment on this yet. I'm just going to ask everyone a question I thought of last time I considered this story and I want you to try to answer from memory without looking back to the story. When you read this, what age do you imagine Ananais and Sapphira to be?
:Chinscratch: When I read it, it seems to me, I "imagine" them to be sort of 'young'.. no children..
Good, thank you. Any other takers?
Middle aged no kids
Thanks, GIL. Anyone else.