What happens when we die?

[omegaflare]

Hello:

I am unable to find a direct answer on this forum and it wasn't even posted on tentmaker.org website. I searched everywhere.

1) Stephen spirit was departed before he got stoned to death - he saw the gate of heaven being opened. This completely negate soul-sleep.

2) During the Old Testament, most of the spirit of both unbelievers and believers were imprisoned (aka death).

3) Moses and Elijah spoke with the Lord at mount transfiguration. If spirit is not conscious and yet Moses and Elijah spoke with the lord at that time. 

4) After Christ died, all of the spirit in the prison were opened, old-testament saints and sinners alike (resurrection?).

Let me get this straight: when I die, my spirit (conscious) will depart and be with the lord determining whether I will participate in the 1st or 2nd resurrection. Meanwhile, my body will remain in the grave sleeping lifeless remembering nothing. This happened to Stephen.

- Seventh-Day Adventist upholds Soul-Sleep and has been debunked numerous of time.
- Mormon and JW are very similar to SDA.
- Baptist upholds the view of hell and has been debunked by several well known author such as tentmaker.org or universal salvationist.

Direct answer please, no vague answer otherwise wouldn't that make God the author of confusion if the Bible is so difficult to comprehend?

EDIT: here are some scriptural evidence:

Scripture assures believers of their souls' destiny at death:

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6–8, emphasis added)

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (Philippians 1:21–24)

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last. (Luke 23:46)

So when Jesus died his body became lifeless, remembers nothing. But according to Luke 23:46 - his spirit went back to his father, consciously. Baptist preachers said he went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights - nowhere taught in the scripture.

The stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:54–59).
The transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–8; Mark 9:1–8; Luke 9:28–36) - represented as having bodies.
Rachel's soul departing when she died (Genesis 35:18).
Putting death to the flesh (1 Peter 3:18).
Spiritual body after death (2 Corinthians 5:1–5).
Redemption of our spiritual bodies (Romans 8:23-24).
Unsure (John 5:28-29). Resurrection of life and Resurrection of damnation.
Unbelievers and believers alike will be raised (Acts 24:15)

Two more passages bear further discussion. First, John 11:23–27:

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Notice Jesus corrected Martha's belief that her brother would only "live" in the resurrection. In contrast, Jesus revealed that believers will live even if they die, and in fact, they will never die in the way that our bodies do.

Luke 23:42–43. Instead of, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise," they argue Jesus really said, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." But Scripture includes no other instance of Jesus saying, "I say to you today." This adds to the likelihood that, as every English translation indicates, Jesus was emphasizing that today was the time He and the thief would be together in paradise. And even Jesus's statement, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit," points to His being spiritually in God's presence immediately upon death.

Samuel was angry because his sleep had been disturbed. However, sleep is not mentioned in the passage. The text only says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Samuel 28:15). Further, as Thomas Constable noted, "This passage does not say that the witch brought up Samuel from the dead. God revealed Samuel to Saul."

For Christians, death means we will finally, immediately be face-to-face with our Father?

Thanks! Grace to you all!

[Aerex]

I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

[omegaflare]

I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

This is a teaching uphold by Seventh-Day Adventist, notably Soul-Sleep. I assume you're Seventh-Day Adventist? Elijah and Moses SPOKE with Jesus - how can this be a vision?

Matthew 17:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Nowhere in Matthew chapter 17 indicate that there was vision. It wasn't mentioned.

And also, my original post was edited.

EDIT: look at 1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV):

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If it's true that everyone's asleep then apparently Christ's death is meaningless? Is death still victorious? Then your argument would stand correct.

[GodIsLove]

I would be interested in the answer to this question too, with quotes from scripture. I am also confused about this. It sounds like many on here believe in souls sleep until Jesus comes/resurrection, and other Christians beleive when people die they go to heaven/hell right away (or purgatory for Catholics). If the latter is true what is the point of the ressurection, or don't they believe in it?

[omegaflare]

I would be interested in the answer to this question too, with quotes from scripture. I am also confused about this. It sounds like many on here believe in souls sleep until Jesus comes/resurrection, and other Christians beleive when people die they go to heaven/hell right away (or purgatory for Catholics). If the latter is true what is the point of the ressurection, or don't they believe in it?

The point of Resurrection is to have their glorified bodies - those who are IN CHRIST - that's the 1st resurrection! The wicked will partake in the 2nd resurrection of the wicked with their old Adam nature - cast into the fire, old Adam nature burned up (crucify their flesh as Christ did), and the spirit is now in Christ. This is how I see it, I could be wrong.

[omegaflare]

I would appreciate if the author of tentmaker.org can ADDRESS this very issue at hand via website on their tract section.

This is a must. I am shocked they didn't even bother to bring this up.

[GodIsLove]

So according to the scriptures you quoted and parts of revelation it seems like the saints' souls go to God immediately...what about "the wicked" ... Do they wait for the second ressurection while soul sleeping?

[Lazarus Short]

We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

[Dandelion]

Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.   

[jabcat]

may help, maybe not..worth a shot :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/please-define-death/msg138867/#msg138867

[Shev]

Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.

I love what you wrote, Dandelion! I would like to finish the quoted passage though, if I may:

...But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10)

Please don't take that as a rude contradiction - I thought what you wrote was awesome! I just think the next verse after 9 shows the reality of God revealing things to us by His Spirit that would not be revealed otherwise...and yet, they must indeed be revealed, not clutched at by the natural mind.

I think you are so right about heaven. Man tends to think of heaven in earthly terms, like a baby in a womb thinking the outside world will be "dark and wet" once he is born. But I agree that it will also be completely familiar, as the reality that has been growing within us like a cocoon ever since the light of Christ shone within.

[Aerex]

I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

This is a teaching uphold by Seventh-Day Adventist, notably Soul-Sleep. I assume you're Seventh-Day Adventist? Elijah and Moses SPOKE with Jesus - how can this be a vision?

Matthew 17:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Nowhere in Matthew chapter 17 indicate that there was vision. It wasn't mentioned.

And also, my original post was edited.

EDIT: look at 1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV):

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If it's true that everyone's asleep then apparently Christ's death is meaningless? Is death still victorious? Then your argument would stand correct.

No I am not a seventh day adventist.  If this is what they believe i guess i agree on this.The whole point of Jesus resurrected is so that we can be alive after death. If spirits are immortal then Jesus resurrection would be redundant.

I think Lazarus Short has it right. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience not the other way around.

[micah7:9]

We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[sheila]

  I don't have all the answer's...but don't forget to take into consideration the texts regarding there is a terrestial body and celestial body

  and also this...a corn of wheat is sown[seed] and it has a body....this being true with a human body[terrestial] conception..[flesh

  begetting flesh]   and then KNOWING GOD'S GOOD SEED spirit begetting....having it's own celestial body.........you MUST be

  born again from above[the celestial body]

     I was told you have two souls...see Proverbs 31  wool and flax/double garmented=all men bear image[garment] of corrupt/and

so,too,all men shall bear image[garment] of the incorrupt........  the terrestial/natural/corruptible man..has no life in himself.....

  he is born of man's will   of the TOKOGAE..and as a sheep clothed in wool[1st Adam]  the last Adam/spiritual man in incorruptible

image /born of the will of God,flax/linen garment/celestial garment/son of God/TOL.


   that which is mortal must put on immortality.   A change of garments...see shadow as outlined in law and priestly functions.and also

   Joshua the High Priest being clothed in filthy garments..and as a branch snatched out of the fire...with satan resisting and

the change to clean garments....Satan rebuked by the LORD who has chosen.   God has chosen to make over all men that have

bore the image of the corrupt...into the image of the incorruptible[let us make man in OUR image]

    a NEW CREATURE

[sheila]

ps  TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE=TODAY YOU HAVE BECOME MY SON=BORN AGAIN OF HEAVEN

[joeteekay]

I believe all of us agree that we who are alive are living souls. But is there a thing such as a dead soul? what happens at death?

The scriptures tell us that a living human being consists of body, soul and spirit. So what is the soul? What happens to it at death? I

Thes. 5:23 tells us that man consists of body, soul and spirit.

(KJV) 
1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Also:

Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


The human body is simply a vessel to house the soul and the spirit.

The breathing man is a living soul.

(KJV)  Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Can a soul die? Sure it can. It most certainly is not immortal. The vast majority of nominal Christianity teach that it is immortal. Not true.

(KJV)  Eze_18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

BUT what happens to the soul at death?

(KJV)  Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Concordant Literal Version)  Mat. 10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.


Can something which is destroyed, like the soul, be reconstituted?

Destroy, perish and lost all are translated from the one Greek word Apollumni ( Strong's G622). It never carries the meaning of total annihilation or extermination. Gone forever? No.

God can destroy the soul. But what happens to it at death. Well it becomes a dead soul. So is there such a thing as a dead soul? If there is, can a dead soul be brought back to life? Yes, by the resurrection. Consider the first resurrection, notice what the Apostle

Paul wrote:

(KJV) 1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The dead shall be raised incorruptible. The dead (dead soul) will be raised most likely from the place where the person died and will be raised an immortal spirit being.

(KJV)  Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


(Concordant Literal Version)  Dan 12:2  From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion


It appears that the soul will be raised from the grave and become spirit, just as Jesus is Spirit. Just like the living soul is an invisible entity, so must the dead soul be some invisible essence. It is not the body which is resurrected (flesh which has decayed and returned into the dust). It is the soul that shall be awakened by God and raised to aeonian life.

At the first resurrection those who are alive shall be changed instantly from physical body, soul and spirit into a spiritual body and made immortal. And those who are dead in hades (the imperceptible) will also be raised to immortality as spiritual bodies. The dead rise first and those of us who are alive at the 7th trumpet, them first and then us in the twinkling of an eye. Then we become a spiritual body, not a physical body and not a soul which required the physical body to live and be a living soul.

What is the purpose of being raised from the dead? Could God raise His children to spiritual bodies another way? Could He make His children spirit beings without a resurrection from the dead? Probably. But He has chosen by His grand purpose for the dead to be raised (revived) from the imperceptible

Look at the way this same word nephesh (H5315) is used in Lev. 19:28,  21:1,  22:4 and in Num 5:2, 6:11 and 9: 6,7, 10. Can Nephesh only be a living soul? Or can it be dead soul?

Selecting one of these scriptures as an example :

Num 9:6  And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (H5315 - nephesh) of a man, that they could not keep the Passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:


The other scriptures referred to in Lev. and Num. refer to nephesh as dead or dead body. Therefore a soul (nephesh) can be either alive or dead.

Death is referred to as sleep. Asleep in the grave - the imperceptible. Why is it called the imperceptible? Something not perceived still exists, but it cannot be detected by the physical senses.

All that are in the grave shall hear His voice. How can they hear unless there is something that God wakes up (through His Spirit) for them to hear. He has a voice that will be heard. That is real.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ... And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgment).


Other scriptures on this topic of the soul worth looking at are Isa. 26:19, Rev. 6 : 9-10 and Ps. 146:4.

This topic was also alluded to in the subject of "soul sleep"

That's my 2 cents.  :2c: :2c:

[marie glen]

hi! :hiya: I figure "surely.. you won't.. die.." was the first lie.. or one of the very first. It just seems logical to me that the whole lesson, good from evil, is also life from death (as nonlife). That nonlife "perishing" is the very real potential for each and every one of us.. and of all "in heaven and earth". THE ultimate foundation lesson that all are learning. Good from evil, which is, Life from nonlife (true from untrue).

And Jesus said "I will raise them up at the last day". And Paul wrote "we which are alive and remain shall not precede those who are asleep, but the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in the air" at His coming "and so shall we" (all believers) ever be with the Lord"

Jesus said "unless you repent, ye shall all likewise perish". It seems to me the whole lesson is God is both Life and Perfection. So all imperfect can only perish/fade. When God created rational creatures surely it opened up a whole Pandora's box because with thinking ability, sooner or later, is the ability to make choices. (Even if they are so totally limited.. thank goodness.)

I'm truly convinced that once anyone in any tiny way (in thought, word or deed) differs with what God our Father chooses, they become imPerfect, the opposite of Life. Hence the rescue/redemption/reconciliation needed. That imperfection is an irreversible path. Imperfect cannot reverse its course and make itself perfect, what with being imperfect. Thus are the angels who left their first position in chains of darkness (and evil confusion) awaiting judgment, because they cannot reverse their course but are locked into darkness.

We know 1 Corinthians 15:52 (or thereabouts?) says at the last trump(et) the dead in Christ shall rise and we shall "put on perfection and immortality". If we already had either of those two (or are they the same?) I'm thinking we wouldn't have to put them on at the (1st) resurrection, at the last day.

It's only the 'immortal soul' idea which seems to require a hell. (Which is such an insult (blasphemy of a high order).

I have thought perhaps after Jesus crucifixion and rising, maybe all asleep in faith rose.. but then I consider, for instance 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 says "all in Christ made alive but each in their own order, Jesus the firstfruit, then, those which are His at His coming, (and, then when He delivers the kingdom to the Father" -Rev 21:3-5?)

Stephen's "seeing the heavens opened and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", I think, was just that..

Moses and Elijah on the mount may be simply vision, or came in from outside of time..? :dontknow: Or possibly some old saints were raised at the crucifixion, but then that would make Jesus not the first to rise. ("Firstfruits" was one of the holy days of the ancient Spring Feasts instituted by God the Father, which were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent.)

"rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" and "having the desire to depart and be with Christ.." I fully expect when I die, the next instant I am aware of will be the resurrection.

"Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." Our breath and our psyche belong to God and we all commit them to Him.. I have to think He is very organized.. What are all those immortal souls doing for hundreds of years..

Spiritual body after death (2 Corinthians 5:1–5) -- 4 "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."
        1 Corinthians 15:51-55
        53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when
        this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality,
        then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
        51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a
        moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and
        the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

:Chinscratch: That there would be a rising of the soul, then a rising of the body, doesn't make any sense to me. I read somewhere, where it seemed like this was what was believed to be the 1st and 2nd resurrections and I wanted to say "beg pardon? but doesn't the 2nd resurrection happen after the millennial kingdom of Jesus?" ..Putting it 1000 years after the first resurrection.. would we each have our own 1000 years between the rising of psyche (called soul) and body?

Romans 8:23-24
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
- eagerly waiting for the adoption.. we would be orphans in heaven? for hundreds of years perhaps, waiting for heaven to be restored to Earth - "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow".

Resurrection of life and Resurrection of damnation. Actually, in the language originally written it would read more like "resurrection of life and (or) resurrection of judgment" (here again, the 1st and the 2nd.)

"he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die" in the original it's more like "not may be dying into the age.." (instead of "never":)

Anyway, that's the way I see it.. that nonlife is "the result of imperfection is death" nonlife.. I can't see death as simply another kind of living.. and anyone who doesn't repent would perish(Lev 23:29).. imperfection is death.. to wander from God in any teeny tiny way is to become imPerfect, opposite of Life. And He is writing/engraving this upon every heart and psyche/mind.

God bless! :smile:

[Dandelion]

Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.

I love what you wrote, Dandelion! I would like to finish the quoted passage though, if I may:

...But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10)

Please don't take that as a rude contradiction - I thought what you wrote was awesome! I just think the next verse after 9 shows the reality of God revealing things to us by His Spirit that would not be revealed otherwise...and yet, they must indeed be revealed, not clutched at by the natural mind.

I think you are so right about heaven. Man tends to think of heaven in earthly terms, like a baby in a womb thinking the outside world will be "dark and wet" once he is born. But I agree that it will also be completely familiar, as the reality that has been growing within us like a cocoon ever since the light of Christ shone within.

Funny you did this, Shev.

I just got home from work, looked at my post here, and thought, I really should have mentioned that the Holy Spirit will give us insight, as well.

When I put that quote, I googled part of it, and that segment came up on the computer, so I copied and pasted it, never bothering to find the rest of it.

And, lo and behold, you put it. And it is truly a beautiful piece! And says exactly what it should now.   

Thank you!

D. 

:dsunny:

[marie glen]

...that's very interesting.. I never think of 'heaven'. As I think of the millennium as occurring upon Earth, judgment day I guess I think of as occurring upon Earth (spiritually in front of God's throne :Chinscratch: ) and then God the Father comes to the Earth to tabernacle with man.. so I think of 'heaven' as coming to the Earth, as perfection and paradise according to the original blueprint of God at creation and in His mind.. I guess i think of pre-creation as being of the mind.. Or that is more specifically in the mind of God.. Or, I guess as simply God. His undifferentiated Spirit, the pure Spirit of love, intellect, and bliss.

I've never thought of heaven as a place. :smile:
But I think after this question of good and evil has been thoroughly proven (to all of us in spirit and earth) that life will spread throughout the universe.. the heavens.. After all, all people from the beginning will be quite a population.. I may, of course, be wrong about that.. But I think of eternity and the ages as being 'earthly' though of a perfect nature, perhaps what could be called of a finer substance, even as our new bodies will be (and creation as even more colorful).. And hurrah, incorruptible. To me God the Father is creating creation, not merely as some sort of testing ground, to be tossed out when no longer needed, but as a beautiful creation, more wondrous than we presently have any idea of.. (Mostly because we are to different degrees distracted by the world mankind has created.)

[Dandelion]

...that's very interesting.. I never think of 'heaven'. As I think of the millennium as occurring upon Earth, judgment day I guess I think of as occurring upon Earth (spiritually in front of God's throne :Chinscratch: ) and then God the Father comes to the Earth to tabernacle with man.. so I think of 'heaven' as coming to the Earth, as perfection and paradise according to the original blueprint of God at creation and in His mind.. I guess i think of pre-creation as being of the mind.. Or that is more specifically in the mind of God.. Or, I guess as simply God. His undifferentiated Spirit, the pure Spirit of love, intellect, and bliss.

I've never thought of heaven as a place. :smile:
But I think after this question of good and evil has been thoroughly proven (to all of us in spirit and earth) that life will spread throughout the universe.. the heavens.. After all, all people from the beginning will be quite a population.. I may, of course, be wrong about that.. But I think of eternity and the ages as being 'earthly' though of a perfect nature, perhaps what could be called of a finer substance, even as our new bodies will be (and creation as even more colorful).. And hurrah, incorruptible. To me God the Father is creating creation, not merely as some sort of testing ground, to be tossed out when no longer needed, but as a beautiful creation, more wondrous than we presently have any idea of.. (Mostly because we are to different degrees distracted by the world mankind has created.)

Since before I could remember, Heaven was a place to me. I guess we can point to the Baltimore Catechism, of the Catholic Church, for that. 

I do realize though that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

This is one of the things I love about this place.......one gets so many new and interesting perspectives, on aspects of our faith.

Thank you, Marie Glenn!

:thumbsup:

D. 

[joeteekay]

I know this topic on what happens when we die has been discussed many times ( see Jabcats link in post #9).  I will not post again on this thread.

I just want to make one addition point to what I wrote in post #15.

Laz gave us this equation in his post #7:

DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Simple math would seem to suggest this is so, but I do not believe it gives the full story. I would put it this way:

BODY (DUST OF THE EARTH) + BREATH + SPIRIT
   = A LIVING SOUL (NEPESH)

The physical body is a shell, a container which houses the soul and spirit. A soul lives because it has breath.  Breath ceases when a person dies. Does this automatically mean that the soul is gone when one dies and only exists in a living person? No IMO.

BREATH GIVEN AND MAN BECOMES A LIVING SOUL

SO A LIVING SOUL IS COMPOSED OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH AND THE BREATH OF LIFE (WHICH ALL CREATURES HAVE AT BIRTH) AND SPIRIT WHICH IS GIVEN BY GOD AT BIRTH

ON DEATH - BODY BECOMES DUST

THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT

UPON DEATH  BREATH CEASES AND MAN BECOMES A DEAD SOUL.

I do not see why it is necessary for the soul to become non-existent when a person dies. I do not want to reiterate the scriptural proofs we on this forum agree with - that there is no such thing as an immortal soul and the dead have no consciousness until they are awaken at a resurrection.  The dead know nothing.  I think the term soul sleep is a poor choice of words. It does not appear in scripture.

Last point - What happened to Christ when He died? Did His soul disappear into oblivion and only His body remain?  Or did His soul still exist when He was dead? He certainly died and had no breath.

PROOF:

Act_2:27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

A more accurate translation is:

Acts 2:27 (CLV) For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul (psuche G5590)  in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay.

The dead Christ, His soul and body (which did not decay) was in the tomb (grave - the unseen or imperceptible) until the Father raised Him from the dead.

[Aerex]

I don't know what unseen means in the Jewish context. I do know that energy can not be created nor can it be destroyed. If the soul is some type of energy (breath) it merely may be transformed into something else but certainly isn't conscious of anything.

:Chinscratch:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: My  :2c: The spirit returns to the One who sent it, the soul stays trapped for a season in whatever it did not overcome through Christ during it's time in the flesh body. This is why the Jews pray for up to a year, for the deceased, and why the Word says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation there is same word for deliverance, and the deliverance of our soul from the things that "spot" it, is overcoming.

I had a personal experience with the Lord in His intercession and deliverance of my mother's soul, about 8 months after she passed. This is why I believe like I do, and to me, the basis for His universal reconciliation. He will always go after the one sheep and get it out of the pit.

The soul has 4 parts, it's what makes us, US. They are the mind, will, emotions and desires, which correspond to the four horns on the altar that we are to make ourselves a living sacrifice with, by being tied down with cords of love.

The RE-union of the soul and spirit, is the first resurrection. Paul mentioned that this is possible to happen without the body dying, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. Blessings...

[micah7:9]

We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

Believe what the Bible says about what happens when one dies, without all of man's natural thinking, speculations, assumptions, ideas, and denominational doctrines. It would clear up much. And should one except what Laz wrote which is scripture and biblical  that you DO NOT have a soul...YOU ARE A SOUL one would have calm seas.
:2c: :dsunny: