Tentmaker Forum

Hello:

I am unable to find a direct answer on this forum and it wasn't even posted on tentmaker.org website. I searched everywhere.

1) Stephen spirit was departed before he got stoned to death - he saw the gate of heaven being opened. This completely negate soul-sleep.

2) During the Old Testament, most of the spirit of both unbelievers and believers were imprisoned (aka death).

3) Moses and Elijah spoke with the Lord at mount transfiguration. If spirit is not conscious and yet Moses and Elijah spoke with the lord at that time. 

4) After Christ died, all of the spirit in the prison were opened, old-testament saints and sinners alike (resurrection?).

Let me get this straight: when I die, my spirit (conscious) will depart and be with the lord determining whether I will participate in the 1st or 2nd resurrection. Meanwhile, my body will remain in the grave sleeping lifeless remembering nothing. This happened to Stephen.

- Seventh-Day Adventist upholds Soul-Sleep and has been debunked numerous of time.
- Mormon and JW are very similar to SDA.
- Baptist upholds the view of hell and has been debunked by several well known author such as tentmaker.org or universal salvationist.

Direct answer please, no vague answer otherwise wouldn't that make God the author of confusion if the Bible is so difficult to comprehend?

EDIT: here are some scriptural evidence:

Scripture assures believers of their souls' destiny at death:

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6–8, emphasis added)

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (Philippians 1:21–24)

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last. (Luke 23:46)

So when Jesus died his body became lifeless, remembers nothing. But according to Luke 23:46 - his spirit went back to his father, consciously. Baptist preachers said he went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights - nowhere taught in the scripture.

The stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:54–59).
The transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–8; Mark 9:1–8; Luke 9:28–36) - represented as having bodies.
Rachel's soul departing when she died (Genesis 35:18).
Putting death to the flesh (1 Peter 3:18).
Spiritual body after death (2 Corinthians 5:1–5).
Redemption of our spiritual bodies (Romans 8:23-24).
Unsure (John 5:28-29). Resurrection of life and Resurrection of damnation.
Unbelievers and believers alike will be raised (Acts 24:15)

Two more passages bear further discussion. First, John 11:23–27:

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Notice Jesus corrected Martha's belief that her brother would only "live" in the resurrection. In contrast, Jesus revealed that believers will live even if they die, and in fact, they will never die in the way that our bodies do.

Luke 23:42–43. Instead of, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise," they argue Jesus really said, "Truly I say to you today, you shall be with Me in Paradise." But Scripture includes no other instance of Jesus saying, "I say to you today." This adds to the likelihood that, as every English translation indicates, Jesus was emphasizing that today was the time He and the thief would be together in paradise. And even Jesus's statement, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit," points to His being spiritually in God's presence immediately upon death.

Samuel was angry because his sleep had been disturbed. However, sleep is not mentioned in the passage. The text only says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Samuel 28:15). Further, as Thomas Constable noted, "This passage does not say that the witch brought up Samuel from the dead. God revealed Samuel to Saul."

For Christians, death means we will finally, immediately be face-to-face with our Father?

Thanks! Grace to you all!

I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

Quote from: Aerex on October 02, 2015, 04:00:27 AM
I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

This is a teaching uphold by Seventh-Day Adventist, notably Soul-Sleep. I assume you're Seventh-Day Adventist? Elijah and Moses SPOKE with Jesus - how can this be a vision?

Matthew 17:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Nowhere in Matthew chapter 17 indicate that there was vision. It wasn't mentioned.

And also, my original post was edited.

EDIT: look at 1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV):

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If it's true that everyone's asleep then apparently Christ's death is meaningless? Is death still victorious? Then your argument would stand correct.

I would be interested in the answer to this question too, with quotes from scripture. I am also confused about this. It sounds like many on here believe in souls sleep until Jesus comes/resurrection, and other Christians beleive when people die they go to heaven/hell right away (or purgatory for Catholics). If the latter is true what is the point of the ressurection, or don't they believe in it?

Quote from: GodIsLove on October 02, 2015, 04:24:12 AM
I would be interested in the answer to this question too, with quotes from scripture. I am also confused about this. It sounds like many on here believe in souls sleep until Jesus comes/resurrection, and other Christians beleive when people die they go to heaven/hell right away (or purgatory for Catholics). If the latter is true what is the point of the ressurection, or don't they believe in it?

The point of Resurrection is to have their glorified bodies - those who are IN CHRIST - that's the 1st resurrection! The wicked will partake in the 2nd resurrection of the wicked with their old Adam nature - cast into the fire, old Adam nature burned up (crucify their flesh as Christ did), and the spirit is now in Christ. This is how I see it, I could be wrong.

I would appreciate if the author of tentmaker.org can ADDRESS this very issue at hand via website on their tract section.

This is a must. I am shocked they didn't even bother to bring this up.

So according to the scriptures you quoted and parts of revelation it seems like the saints' souls go to God immediately...what about "the wicked" ... Do they wait for the second ressurection while soul sleeping?

We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.   

may help, maybe not..worth a shot :)

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/please-define-death/msg138867/#msg138867

Quote from: Dandelion on October 02, 2015, 05:28:52 AM
Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.

I love what you wrote, Dandelion! I would like to finish the quoted passage though, if I may:

...But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10)

Please don't take that as a rude contradiction - I thought what you wrote was awesome! I just think the next verse after 9 shows the reality of God revealing things to us by His Spirit that would not be revealed otherwise...and yet, they must indeed be revealed, not clutched at by the natural mind.

I think you are so right about heaven. Man tends to think of heaven in earthly terms, like a baby in a womb thinking the outside world will be "dark and wet" once he is born. But I agree that it will also be completely familiar, as the reality that has been growing within us like a cocoon ever since the light of Christ shone within.

Quote from: omegaflare on October 02, 2015, 04:18:49 AM

Quote from: Aerex on October 02, 2015, 04:00:27 AM
I thought 1) and 3) were all vision meaning they didn't really happen. I don't think that was Elijah and Moses but merely representation of the old covenant. The real Elijah and Moses are dead/sleep until Christ comes back. This goes the same for #1 what Stephen saw was a vision because no man has seen God except the Son. Besides, God is spiritual when he reveals himself it would be a manifestation physically that we can relate to.

I think when you die God's spirt that has sustained your life returns to God and your physical body goes to the ground. (Read Ecclesiastes). Your soul in the combination of God's spirit and your body. The personality, memories and everything else is a sleep. When you are sleep you are not aware of what is going on around you hence the phrase the dead know nothing. Some people say they visited hell or heaven but really it is all just a dream created from the mind. You will be a live when Christ wakes you up like he did with the little girl.

:2c:

This is a teaching uphold by Seventh-Day Adventist, notably Soul-Sleep. I assume you're Seventh-Day Adventist? Elijah and Moses SPOKE with Jesus - how can this be a vision?

Matthew 17:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Nowhere in Matthew chapter 17 indicate that there was vision. It wasn't mentioned.

And also, my original post was edited.

EDIT: look at 1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV):

"O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

If it's true that everyone's asleep then apparently Christ's death is meaningless? Is death still victorious? Then your argument would stand correct.

No I am not a seventh day adventist.  If this is what they believe i guess i agree on this.The whole point of Jesus resurrected is so that we can be alive after death. If spirits are immortal then Jesus resurrection would be redundant.

I think Lazarus Short has it right. We are physical beings having a spiritual experience not the other way around.

Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 02, 2015, 05:01:00 AM
We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

  I don't have all the answer's...but don't forget to take into consideration the texts regarding there is a terrestial body and celestial body

  and also this...a corn of wheat is sown[seed] and it has a body....this being true with a human body[terrestial] conception..[flesh

  begetting flesh]   and then KNOWING GOD'S GOOD SEED spirit begetting....having it's own celestial body.........you MUST be

  born again from above[the celestial body]

     I was told you have two souls...see Proverbs 31  wool and flax/double garmented=all men bear image[garment] of corrupt/and

so,too,all men shall bear image[garment] of the incorrupt........  the terrestial/natural/corruptible man..has no life in himself.....

  he is born of man's will   of the TOKOGAE..and as a sheep clothed in wool[1st Adam]  the last Adam/spiritual man in incorruptible

image /born of the will of God,flax/linen garment/celestial garment/son of God/TOL.


   that which is mortal must put on immortality.   A change of garments...see shadow as outlined in law and priestly functions.and also

   Joshua the High Priest being clothed in filthy garments..and as a branch snatched out of the fire...with satan resisting and

the change to clean garments....Satan rebuked by the LORD who has chosen.   God has chosen to make over all men that have

bore the image of the corrupt...into the image of the incorruptible[let us make man in OUR image]

    a NEW CREATURE

ps  TODAY YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE=TODAY YOU HAVE BECOME MY SON=BORN AGAIN OF HEAVEN

I believe all of us agree that we who are alive are living souls. But is there a thing such as a dead soul? what happens at death?

The scriptures tell us that a living human being consists of body, soul and spirit. So what is the soul? What happens to it at death? I

Thes. 5:23 tells us that man consists of body, soul and spirit.

(KJV) 
1Th_5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Also:

Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


The human body is simply a vessel to house the soul and the spirit.

The breathing man is a living soul.

(KJV)  Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Can a soul die? Sure it can. It most certainly is not immortal. The vast majority of nominal Christianity teach that it is immortal. Not true.

(KJV)  Eze_18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

BUT what happens to the soul at death?

(KJV)  Mat_10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Concordant Literal Version)  Mat. 10:28 "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.


Can something which is destroyed, like the soul, be reconstituted?

Destroy, perish and lost all are translated from the one Greek word Apollumni ( Strong's G622). It never carries the meaning of total annihilation or extermination. Gone forever? No.

God can destroy the soul. But what happens to it at death. Well it becomes a dead soul. So is there such a thing as a dead soul? If there is, can a dead soul be brought back to life? Yes, by the resurrection. Consider the first resurrection, notice what the Apostle

Paul wrote:

(KJV) 1Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


The dead shall be raised incorruptible. The dead (dead soul) will be raised most likely from the place where the person died and will be raised an immortal spirit being.

(KJV)  Daniel 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


(Concordant Literal Version)  Dan 12:2  From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life and these to reproach for eonian repulsion


It appears that the soul will be raised from the grave and become spirit, just as Jesus is Spirit. Just like the living soul is an invisible entity, so must the dead soul be some invisible essence. It is not the body which is resurrected (flesh which has decayed and returned into the dust). It is the soul that shall be awakened by God and raised to aeonian life.

At the first resurrection those who are alive shall be changed instantly from physical body, soul and spirit into a spiritual body and made immortal. And those who are dead in hades (the imperceptible) will also be raised to immortality as spiritual bodies. The dead rise first and those of us who are alive at the 7th trumpet, them first and then us in the twinkling of an eye. Then we become a spiritual body, not a physical body and not a soul which required the physical body to live and be a living soul.

What is the purpose of being raised from the dead? Could God raise His children to spiritual bodies another way? Could He make His children spirit beings without a resurrection from the dead? Probably. But He has chosen by His grand purpose for the dead to be raised (revived) from the imperceptible

Look at the way this same word nephesh (H5315) is used in Lev. 19:28,  21:1,  22:4 and in Num 5:2, 6:11 and 9: 6,7, 10. Can Nephesh only be a living soul? Or can it be dead soul?

Selecting one of these scriptures as an example :

Num 9:6  And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body (H5315 - nephesh) of a man, that they could not keep the Passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:


The other scriptures referred to in Lev. and Num. refer to nephesh as dead or dead body. Therefore a soul (nephesh) can be either alive or dead.

Death is referred to as sleep. Asleep in the grave - the imperceptible. Why is it called the imperceptible? Something not perceived still exists, but it cannot be detected by the physical senses.

All that are in the grave shall hear His voice. How can they hear unless there is something that God wakes up (through His Spirit) for them to hear. He has a voice that will be heard. That is real.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, ... And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation (judgment).


Other scriptures on this topic of the soul worth looking at are Isa. 26:19, Rev. 6 : 9-10 and Ps. 146:4.

This topic was also alluded to in the subject of "soul sleep"

That's my 2 cents.  :2c: :2c:

hi! :hiya: I figure "surely.. you won't.. die.." was the first lie.. or one of the very first. It just seems logical to me that the whole lesson, good from evil, is also life from death (as nonlife). That nonlife "perishing" is the very real potential for each and every one of us.. and of all "in heaven and earth". THE ultimate foundation lesson that all are learning. Good from evil, which is, Life from nonlife (true from untrue).

And Jesus said "I will raise them up at the last day". And Paul wrote "we which are alive and remain shall not precede those who are asleep, but the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in the air" at His coming "and so shall we" (all believers) ever be with the Lord"

Jesus said "unless you repent, ye shall all likewise perish". It seems to me the whole lesson is God is both Life and Perfection. So all imperfect can only perish/fade. When God created rational creatures surely it opened up a whole Pandora's box because with thinking ability, sooner or later, is the ability to make choices. (Even if they are so totally limited.. thank goodness.)

I'm truly convinced that once anyone in any tiny way (in thought, word or deed) differs with what God our Father chooses, they become imPerfect, the opposite of Life. Hence the rescue/redemption/reconciliation needed. That imperfection is an irreversible path. Imperfect cannot reverse its course and make itself perfect, what with being imperfect. Thus are the angels who left their first position in chains of darkness (and evil confusion) awaiting judgment, because they cannot reverse their course but are locked into darkness.

We know 1 Corinthians 15:52 (or thereabouts?) says at the last trump(et) the dead in Christ shall rise and we shall "put on perfection and immortality". If we already had either of those two (or are they the same?) I'm thinking we wouldn't have to put them on at the (1st) resurrection, at the last day.

It's only the 'immortal soul' idea which seems to require a hell. (Which is such an insult (blasphemy of a high order).

I have thought perhaps after Jesus crucifixion and rising, maybe all asleep in faith rose.. but then I consider, for instance 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 says "all in Christ made alive but each in their own order, Jesus the firstfruit, then, those which are His at His coming, (and, then when He delivers the kingdom to the Father" -Rev 21:3-5?)

Stephen's "seeing the heavens opened and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God", I think, was just that..

Moses and Elijah on the mount may be simply vision, or came in from outside of time..? :dontknow: Or possibly some old saints were raised at the crucifixion, but then that would make Jesus not the first to rise. ("Firstfruits" was one of the holy days of the ancient Spring Feasts instituted by God the Father, which were fulfilled by Jesus' first advent.)

"rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord" and "having the desire to depart and be with Christ.." I fully expect when I die, the next instant I am aware of will be the resurrection.

"Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." Our breath and our psyche belong to God and we all commit them to Him.. I have to think He is very organized.. What are all those immortal souls doing for hundreds of years..

Spiritual body after death (2 Corinthians 5:1–5) -- 4 "For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life."
        1 Corinthians 15:51-55
        53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when
        this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality,
        then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
        51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a
        moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and
        the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

:Chinscratch: That there would be a rising of the soul, then a rising of the body, doesn't make any sense to me. I read somewhere, where it seemed like this was what was believed to be the 1st and 2nd resurrections and I wanted to say "beg pardon? but doesn't the 2nd resurrection happen after the millennial kingdom of Jesus?" ..Putting it 1000 years after the first resurrection.. would we each have our own 1000 years between the rising of psyche (called soul) and body?

Romans 8:23-24
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
- eagerly waiting for the adoption.. we would be orphans in heaven? for hundreds of years perhaps, waiting for heaven to be restored to Earth - "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow".

Resurrection of life and Resurrection of damnation. Actually, in the language originally written it would read more like "resurrection of life and (or) resurrection of judgment" (here again, the 1st and the 2nd.)

"he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die" in the original it's more like "not may be dying into the age.." (instead of "never":)

Anyway, that's the way I see it.. that nonlife is "the result of imperfection is death" nonlife.. I can't see death as simply another kind of living.. and anyone who doesn't repent would perish(Lev 23:29).. imperfection is death.. to wander from God in any teeny tiny way is to become imPerfect, opposite of Life. And He is writing/engraving this upon every heart and psyche/mind.

God bless! :smile:

Quote from: Shev on October 02, 2015, 09:22:00 AM

Quote from: Dandelion on October 02, 2015, 05:28:52 AM
Two things quickly.

God is not the author of confusion. We are his creatures, who are trying to understand an Almighty God, who so surpasses us, and whose ways are not our ways.

Next, I don't know if all the pieces of the puzzle you are trying to solve are given to us. The Bible gives us some.

And, on a personal note, I think about it sometimes, but, as we do while we are on earth, for me it is fine to trust the particulars up to Him. 

I don't think we can imagine Heaven.....it will be so different than anything we know here......yet, I have a feeling when we do get there, it will all seem to fit together, seamlessly. And we will know we are finally home. 

However, as it is written: "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--  1 Corinthians 2:9

:2c:    D.

I love what you wrote, Dandelion! I would like to finish the quoted passage though, if I may:

...But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10)

Please don't take that as a rude contradiction - I thought what you wrote was awesome! I just think the next verse after 9 shows the reality of God revealing things to us by His Spirit that would not be revealed otherwise...and yet, they must indeed be revealed, not clutched at by the natural mind.

I think you are so right about heaven. Man tends to think of heaven in earthly terms, like a baby in a womb thinking the outside world will be "dark and wet" once he is born. But I agree that it will also be completely familiar, as the reality that has been growing within us like a cocoon ever since the light of Christ shone within.

Funny you did this, Shev.

I just got home from work, looked at my post here, and thought, I really should have mentioned that the Holy Spirit will give us insight, as well.

When I put that quote, I googled part of it, and that segment came up on the computer, so I copied and pasted it, never bothering to find the rest of it.

And, lo and behold, you put it. And it is truly a beautiful piece! And says exactly what it should now.   

Thank you!

D. 

:dsunny:

...that's very interesting.. I never think of 'heaven'. As I think of the millennium as occurring upon Earth, judgment day I guess I think of as occurring upon Earth (spiritually in front of God's throne :Chinscratch: ) and then God the Father comes to the Earth to tabernacle with man.. so I think of 'heaven' as coming to the Earth, as perfection and paradise according to the original blueprint of God at creation and in His mind.. I guess i think of pre-creation as being of the mind.. Or that is more specifically in the mind of God.. Or, I guess as simply God. His undifferentiated Spirit, the pure Spirit of love, intellect, and bliss.

I've never thought of heaven as a place. :smile:
But I think after this question of good and evil has been thoroughly proven (to all of us in spirit and earth) that life will spread throughout the universe.. the heavens.. After all, all people from the beginning will be quite a population.. I may, of course, be wrong about that.. But I think of eternity and the ages as being 'earthly' though of a perfect nature, perhaps what could be called of a finer substance, even as our new bodies will be (and creation as even more colorful).. And hurrah, incorruptible. To me God the Father is creating creation, not merely as some sort of testing ground, to be tossed out when no longer needed, but as a beautiful creation, more wondrous than we presently have any idea of.. (Mostly because we are to different degrees distracted by the world mankind has created.)

Quote from: marie glen on October 03, 2015, 06:36:34 AM
...that's very interesting.. I never think of 'heaven'. As I think of the millennium as occurring upon Earth, judgment day I guess I think of as occurring upon Earth (spiritually in front of God's throne :Chinscratch: ) and then God the Father comes to the Earth to tabernacle with man.. so I think of 'heaven' as coming to the Earth, as perfection and paradise according to the original blueprint of God at creation and in His mind.. I guess i think of pre-creation as being of the mind.. Or that is more specifically in the mind of God.. Or, I guess as simply God. His undifferentiated Spirit, the pure Spirit of love, intellect, and bliss.

I've never thought of heaven as a place. :smile:
But I think after this question of good and evil has been thoroughly proven (to all of us in spirit and earth) that life will spread throughout the universe.. the heavens.. After all, all people from the beginning will be quite a population.. I may, of course, be wrong about that.. But I think of eternity and the ages as being 'earthly' though of a perfect nature, perhaps what could be called of a finer substance, even as our new bodies will be (and creation as even more colorful).. And hurrah, incorruptible. To me God the Father is creating creation, not merely as some sort of testing ground, to be tossed out when no longer needed, but as a beautiful creation, more wondrous than we presently have any idea of.. (Mostly because we are to different degrees distracted by the world mankind has created.)

Since before I could remember, Heaven was a place to me. I guess we can point to the Baltimore Catechism, of the Catholic Church, for that. 

I do realize though that there will be a new heaven and a new earth.

This is one of the things I love about this place.......one gets so many new and interesting perspectives, on aspects of our faith.

Thank you, Marie Glenn!

:thumbsup:

D. 

I know this topic on what happens when we die has been discussed many times ( see Jabcats link in post #9).  I will not post again on this thread.

I just want to make one addition point to what I wrote in post #15.

Laz gave us this equation in his post #7:

DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Simple math would seem to suggest this is so, but I do not believe it gives the full story. I would put it this way:

BODY (DUST OF THE EARTH) + BREATH + SPIRIT
   = A LIVING SOUL (NEPESH)

The physical body is a shell, a container which houses the soul and spirit. A soul lives because it has breath.  Breath ceases when a person dies. Does this automatically mean that the soul is gone when one dies and only exists in a living person? No IMO.

BREATH GIVEN AND MAN BECOMES A LIVING SOUL

SO A LIVING SOUL IS COMPOSED OF THE DUST OF THE EARTH AND THE BREATH OF LIFE (WHICH ALL CREATURES HAVE AT BIRTH) AND SPIRIT WHICH IS GIVEN BY GOD AT BIRTH

ON DEATH - BODY BECOMES DUST

THE SPIRIT RETURNS TO GOD WHO GAVE IT

UPON DEATH  BREATH CEASES AND MAN BECOMES A DEAD SOUL.

I do not see why it is necessary for the soul to become non-existent when a person dies. I do not want to reiterate the scriptural proofs we on this forum agree with - that there is no such thing as an immortal soul and the dead have no consciousness until they are awaken at a resurrection.  The dead know nothing.  I think the term soul sleep is a poor choice of words. It does not appear in scripture.

Last point - What happened to Christ when He died? Did His soul disappear into oblivion and only His body remain?  Or did His soul still exist when He was dead? He certainly died and had no breath.

PROOF:

Act_2:27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

A more accurate translation is:

Acts 2:27 (CLV) For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul (psuche G5590)  in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay.

The dead Christ, His soul and body (which did not decay) was in the tomb (grave - the unseen or imperceptible) until the Father raised Him from the dead.

I don't know what unseen means in the Jewish context. I do know that energy can not be created nor can it be destroyed. If the soul is some type of energy (breath) it merely may be transformed into something else but certainly isn't conscious of anything.

:Chinscratch:

 :cloud9: My  :2c: The spirit returns to the One who sent it, the soul stays trapped for a season in whatever it did not overcome through Christ during it's time in the flesh body. This is why the Jews pray for up to a year, for the deceased, and why the Word says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Salvation there is same word for deliverance, and the deliverance of our soul from the things that "spot" it, is overcoming.

I had a personal experience with the Lord in His intercession and deliverance of my mother's soul, about 8 months after she passed. This is why I believe like I do, and to me, the basis for His universal reconciliation. He will always go after the one sheep and get it out of the pit.

The soul has 4 parts, it's what makes us, US. They are the mind, will, emotions and desires, which correspond to the four horns on the altar that we are to make ourselves a living sacrifice with, by being tied down with cords of love.

The RE-union of the soul and spirit, is the first resurrection. Paul mentioned that this is possible to happen without the body dying, ie. mortality swallowed up of immortality. Blessings...

Quote from: Lazarus Short on October 02, 2015, 05:01:00 AM
We all know what a body is, dead or alive, but there is a large measure of misunderstanding between "soul" and "spirit."  As in most such matters, it helps to go back to Genesis.  Here is Laz's view on the matter, for what it's worth:


What are we, anyway?  God tells us in Genesis, for He was there.  From the KJV II:  "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.  And man became a living soul."  [Genesis 2:7]  Now a lot is said in this one verse – let's see how these parts, dust, breath, and soul fit together.  I think it is safe to say that God used the "dust of the ground" to make Adam's body, and for this see also Genesis 3:19 "...for dust you are, and to dust you shall return."  OK, we have a body, but it is lifeless, but then God breathed into it – He breathed into the lifeless body "the breath of life" or "ruach."  The word covers a range of meanings - breath, wind, spirit - and is fairly close to the Greek "pneuma," the Latin "spiritus," and the English "breath."  However, the word "soul" is never far away, for they are closely associated.  Back to our story, we have a dust/dirt body, now with breath/life-force/spirit, and what results?  Man then becomes a "living soul."  Note that!  Genesis, God's Word is telling us that Adam/man does not HAVE a soul – no, Adam/man IS a soul, a living soul.  It is common for Christians of just about any persuasion to talk about "your soul," but that is just plain wrong.  We are souls, living souls, living persons.  I learned all this in the SDA church, by the way, and in that, they were entirely correct.

To reiterate: 
DEAD BODY + BREATH OF LIFE = LIVING SOUL

If so, then this also must be true: 
LIVING SOUL – BREATH OF LIFE = DEAD BODY

Looking through my Strong's Concordance at the entries for the word "soul," I see that the English language so often treats it as something that one possesses, rather than is, so I think this may be how the "your soul" usage came about.  But no, as a good friend once told me, your soul doesn't go flipping off to Heaven when you die.  What returns to God is the breath/spirti which He gave in the beginning.  The Revelation states that there are seven Spirts of God, and elsewhere the Holy Bible says that God is Spirit.  The part of us which is Spirit is God's portion, and therefore it returns to Him on our death.  Perhaps no one has said it better than Solomon, though his view is dark and despairing:

"For one event is for the sons of Adam, and one event for the animals; - and the one event that is to them is; - as these die, so those die; and the same breath is to all;  - and man dies the same as the cattle!  Is not the whole vanity?  The whole go to one place; the whole come from dust; and the whole return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of the sons of Adam when it goes, ascends?  And that the breath of the cattle, when it goes down, departs to the earth?-"  [Eccleiastes 3:19-21 Ferrar Fenton Version]

What are we left with then, when we die?  The breath/Spirit has returned to God who gave it.  The living soul is no more because the breath has departed, and the body begins to return to dirt/dust.

:thumbsup: :dsunny:

Believe what the Bible says about what happens when one dies, without all of man's natural thinking, speculations, assumptions, ideas, and denominational doctrines. It would clear up much. And should one except what Laz wrote which is scripture and biblical  that you DO NOT have a soul...YOU ARE A SOUL one would have calm seas.
:2c: :dsunny:

You know when scriptures say through him we have our being it does mean that considering we are are alive because God is alive.

We are Blessed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDmfAB42z0

Luke 19:40

Christ said God is a God of the living, and in the same time He is God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, meaning that they are all alive now and not simply dead. I think that generally, the souls of the departed go to God and when they love Him and listen to Him, they stay with Him who is light and love. If they do not want to stay with God, they go to the hellish realms to entertain sin and evil there together with devils and demons, but they are generally weak and wretched, ie they pose no threat. The book of Revelation speaks about this in the last chapter that has the New Jerusalem, the heavenly civilisation, being a city with doors. But outside are those who love sin and evil, in that way they cannot enter the New Jerusalem and have to repent of their evil first. But I also believe that often groups of saints and angels wander the hellish realms to search for these men and to convert them to repentance and faith in Jesus. At that point they can enter the New Jerusalem and live the sacred, honest and happy life together with all the others.

Although some proponents of UR claim that there is no consciousness between physical death and physical resurrection, my view is that consciousness does continue after physical death. I base this on 2 Corinthians 5:1 - "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal [eonian] in the heavens."

Also, the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16. Although I don't think the parable was meant to be a literal depiction of the afterlife, I find it hard to believe that Jesus would have used that parable if there was no immediate afterlife with contrasting conditions.

Scripture also indicates it is possible to be judged, and suffer loss (through fire), without one's self being destroyed (1 Cor. 3:15). This passage was directed to believers. I think this is the course for those who died, knowing Christ as their Savior, but not having put away all sin yet. I think this may also be the course for those who died as unbelievers but sought to live according to their conscience as best as they knew how.

Romans 2:13-14 - "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God's sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves."

Nobody completely does what the law requires, neither in letter nor conscience. Thus, I think that in this passage, being "justified" by works does not mean escaping all judgment, but rather, being spared from the Second Death despite being judged through fire.

I personally think that the Second Death which occurs through the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20) is reserved for those whom Sin has taken a very firm grip. I feel that the best way to understand the Second Death is to think about the strong resistance to righteousness that people face in this life. I believe that the "Lake of Fire," which is referred to as the "Second Death," essentially burns up the core of one's being that is corrupted by sin. I think that this is not physical torture given that, a simple solution to sin in the flesh is to destroy the body, which I believe the Lake of Fire will do. However, spiritually and emotionally, the Second Death will be extremely painful. If Sin's grasp on a person was light, the person would have repented in this life. I believe that what emerges from the Lake of Fire, is a new creation.

For what concerns me, I believe that hereafter has three fundamental states: hell and heaven. I believe that hell is a state in which the departed sinners are separated from God until they call unto Him, who will set them free. Since very probably heaven and hell are not "time-states", and since God is impartial, we could assume that the process known as the "Harrowing of hell" (Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrowing_of_Hell) ) has not happened on the day of Jesus' death, but is everyday-happening. Also many early Christians believed in this. I believe that on the other side of the grave sinners experience their spiritual inner state (which is different from what is properly judgement), the "death of their soul". Since salvation is by grace, I believe that a sinner who calls upon God in hell will be set free. On the other side, heaven is a state in which a deep relationship with God is revealed in all its beauty and glory. But I believe these states are not the ones that await after the resurrection, nor do I believe they're properly judgement. In that day, we'll receive glorified bodies, and everybody will be judged according to his works.
It might also be that, since God is above time, we find ourselves in Judgement Day immediately after our death... who knows?
For what concerns me, I believe the harrowing of hell to be true.
Anyway, "in manus tuas, Pater, commendo spiritum meum".

 :cloud9: Once again, if one would study the Tabernacle pattern, which IS the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things, these questions are not as difficult or as simple as some would make them. Blessings....

You become expired, dead, no breathing, begin returning to dust. :2c:

Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2015, 09:10:27 AM
:cloud9: Once again, if one would study the Tabernacle pattern, which IS the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things, these questions are not as difficult or as simple as some would make them. Blessings....

Forgive my ignorance. What is the tabernacle pattern? The OT tabernacle Moses built?

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 29, 2015, 07:34:40 PM
You become expired, dead, no breathing, begin returning to dust. :2c:

:cloud9: For sure the body does, but not the robe of the spirit (soul). Blessings....

Quote from: GodIsLove on November 29, 2015, 09:14:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2015, 09:10:27 AM
:cloud9: Once again, if one would study the Tabernacle pattern, which IS the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things, these questions are not as difficult or as simple as some would make them. Blessings....

Forgive my ignorance. What is the tabernacle pattern? The OT tabernacle Moses built?

:cloud9: Yes.....read some studies about it here......in conjunction with Hebrews, particularly chapters 6,7, and 9.    Blessings....

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/

Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2015, 10:02:25 PM

Quote from: GodIsLove on November 29, 2015, 09:14:49 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2015, 09:10:27 AM
:cloud9: Once again, if one would study the Tabernacle pattern, which IS the pattern of heavenly or spiritual things, these questions are not as difficult or as simple as some would make them. Blessings....

Forgive my ignorance. What is the tabernacle pattern? The OT tabernacle Moses built?

:cloud9: Yes.....read some studies about it here......in conjunction with Hebrews, particularly chapters 6,7, and 9.    Blessings....

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/experiencing-the-tabernacle/

Thanks!

Quote from: Cardinal on November 29, 2015, 10:00:32 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 29, 2015, 07:34:40 PM
You become expired, dead, no breathing, begin returning to dust. :2c:

:cloud9: For sure the body does, but not the robe of the spirit (soul). Blessings....

".... the robe of the spirit(soul) where did that come from? Man became a living soul(Gen. 2:7) a living soul is a person. Soul...is not an entity of its self, man does not have a soul...man IS a soul. :Peace2:

When a soul dies they are dead, Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Can or will we believe the Word of God? Jesus died, without death there can be no resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised:
1Co 15:14  and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain.

" Can or will we believe the Word of God? Jesus died, without death there can be no resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:13  But if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither hath Christ been raised:
1Co 15:14  and if Christ hath not been raised, then is our preaching vain, your faith also is vain."

The first lie in the bible says "you will never die."

We were sown in mortal to be raised in immortal.
The last enemy destroyed is death.
Christ came to give us life in full.

Why is this even important, really, in the scheme of things we know so little about how time and eternity intersect on the other side of the veil, I would think people would be less emphatic and schismatic about issues such as

"What happens when we die?"

I mean, I have my opinion, and it is different than yours- so what?

I agree that all men will die, I just dont agree that you fully understand death.... or resurrection...or the relationship of spirit, soul, body. I certainly dont.

I also see enough scripture on both sides of the debate that I kno there is a deeper truth being missed somewhere, because like with EVERY OTHER debate where Christians use their 5 verses to prove a point and both sides act like their verses are higher, deeper, wider and more important than the other's....

It always turns out in such debates that the spiritual reality is a little further on down the road between and beyond the two polar arguments.  :2c:

It aint important can't see why it was brought up :dontknow:

 :cloud9: My  :2c:  You ever see how passionate people are about their experiences when they say they have died and gone to heaven? They rarely keep it to themselves, they are changed to all around them, and they tell anyone who will listen. That is what an EXPERIENCE does to people, as opposed to head knowledge.

Then add to that, the responsibility of being faithful to the Lord and being held accountable for what you know, as well as accountable for what you share (or don't), and this pretty much sums up why I will resolutely continue to share what I have been shown and experienced.

It matters not to me who chooses to believe it at this moment in time, because I'm not the husbandman waiting for the fruit in it's own season, but it does matter to me that I not withhold from my brethren anything that has potential to help Him write another page in the book of their heart, and free them from a little more death while they are still in the body. Blessings....

PS. I am not a soul. I have a soul. I am not a mind. I have a mind. I am not my emotions. I have emotions. I am not my will. I have a will. I am not desires. I have desires. The soul is; mind, will, emotions and desires. It's what makes us, us, and not Him. The Spirit uses our soul to express Himself through, when we surrender same to Him.

I keep pondering "He is the God of the living not the dead".

 :thumbsup: and this... all live unto God.  because the 'word' was with God from the beginning...and His spirit /word that He  sends

forth does not return to Him void.The 'word of God come in flesh" said 'I AM the resurrection" no wonder all live unto God! :dsunny:

    without Him nothing was made.  the Lord of the living and the dead..the I am the resurrection.


    I have a testimony,too. He took me up to heaven..and I saw those who had died coming into the Holy city. He even let me speak to one

of them[that was when I knew he had passed]  the gates are open continually up there..bringing in all in Adam that He has redeemed.

   

when we pass-over..we ex[it]odus[t] of this world[egypt/with the prince of this world..that held our body as a slave to sin works]..and

   go to the real promised/beautiful land.our heavenly inheritance.

Put biblically simple, we die and begin to return to dust. The One who gave us the breath holds it, sorts it and with all His Wisdom is ready to deal and offer that breath back... in all His Wisdom.... but until The Day, all souls that quit breathing, expired, died.... await the resurrection. Why is that a problem?
We like to quote, Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Notice the word God.......God is a title not a name. I really like Paul's understanding...

Rom 14:9 For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living."

What is so hard in leaving death in the Hands of the Lord? Should we, as mortal man consider an outcome that ONLY He Knows? When i die, expire, quit the breath, embalmed for a casket, coffin, or tomb or cremated my only hope is the resurrection.
I, that's me, hope for the first resurrection, but that is only my hope.

1Co 15:21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead."
1Co 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6  Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
He Is Risen :dsunny:

Quote from: sheila on December 01, 2015, 01:49:41 AM
:thumbsup: and this... all live unto God.  because the 'word' was with God from the beginning...and His spirit /word that He  sends

forth does not return to Him void.The 'word of God come in flesh" said 'I AM the resurrection" no wonder all live unto God! :dsunny:

    without Him nothing was made.  the Lord of the living and the dead..the I am the resurrection.


    I have a testimony,too. He took me up to heaven..and I saw those who had died coming into the Holy city. He even let me speak to one

of them[that was when I knew he had passed]  the gates are open continually up there..bringing in all in Adam that He has redeemed.

:cloud9: :thumbsup:  He gave me a funny confirmation dream recently. I was standing and a school bus pulled up. I saw that all the riders had a box of Tide detergent next to them. Then some of them disembark and I see a 30 year old man who walks by me and addresses me by name, asking me how I'm doing. I said, "I'm doing ok, GRANDPA, how are you?" I have no idea in the natural what my grandfather looked like at when 30 years of age, but I knew by the Spirit that it was him, and that he was 30. He died decades ago at age 85.

The Tide was because their garments (souls) are being cleansed of every SPOT and wrinkle, lol....

The resurrection of the dead in Christ has begun, and those of us who are alive and remain, ARE NEXT. Blessings....

  truly....Tidings of comfort and joy!!

Cardinal,
These things happen a lot this time of year. The Yule Tide sneaks in to our dreams.

Sheila,
Look what you started!

 :laugh:  :girlheart:  now you Brother's know..that when He raised from the dead..the women were the first to see Him..so don't go being

Doubting Thomas'es.    :dsunny:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 01, 2015, 04:39:18 AM
Put biblically simple, we die and begin to return to dust. The One who gave us the breath holds it, sorts it and with all His Wisdom is ready to deal and offer that breath back... in all His Wisdom.... but until The Day, all souls that quit breathing, expired, died.... await the resurrection. Why is that a problem?
We like to quote, Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
Notice the word God.......God is a title not a name. I really like Paul's understanding...

Rom 14:9 For for this Christ died and lives, that He should be Lord of the dead as well as of the living."

What is so hard in leaving death in the Hands of the Lord? Should we, as mortal man consider an outcome that ONLY He Knows? When i die, expire, quit the breath, embalmed for a casket, coffin, or tomb or cremated my only hope is the resurrection.
I, that's me, hope for the first resurrection, but that is only my hope.

1Co 15:21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead."
1Co 15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."

Job 14:5  Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6  Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
He Is Risen :dsunny:

:thumbsup:

We live  to die and then we die to live (by joeteekay)

Quote from: sheila on December 01, 2015, 06:28:47 PM
:laugh:  :girlheart:  now you Brother's know..that when He raised from the dead..the women were the first to see Him..so don't go being

Doubting Thomas'es.    :dsunny:

:cloud9: AMEN! Even a woman (soul) who had 7 (fullness) devils (of darkness) cast out of "her", was the first to see He was risen, and it was witnessed by 2 angels (the ark pattern of 2 cherubim and the Christ in the middle cloud, and the pattern on the mount of transfiguration). And so it shall be with us: prophet, priest, and king ministry. Blessings...

The Bible refers to death as sleep. So doesn't that mean when we die it is like being asleep. When we are asleep we know nothing, except in dreams, we are not conscious.
When we lie down to sleep we know nothing until we wake, time has passed without our knowledge. In sleep we are not dead but our consciousness stops.
In death, are we not like a light that has had it's cord pulled from the socket and lights back up when the cord is plugged back in?

How can we know for sure about this until we experience it? If there are those who have died and are in heaven conscious of everything, why doesn't anyone of them come back and let us know for sure how it is? Now some say they have seen those who have died but I wonder about that?   :dontknow: Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

 :cloud9: There is nothing hidden that will not be revealed and that INCLUDES what happens on the other side of the veil. It's like anything else, we must press in to receive it. So I can't agree with people saying we can't know until we ourselves die; if we die to self pressing in, that is just something else we can be shown, as I was.  My  :2c: Blessings...

(1Kings 17:21-22) And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

Verse 22 says and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived. 

To me this sounds like the soul is seperate from the body.

Micah, maybe you see this different, could you explain this please?

CHB

...and the child 'sneezed' 7 times.....7 unclean spirits came out....though the righteous stumble even 7 times..I will make him get up.

Quote from: CHB on December 01, 2015, 08:32:04 PM
The Bible refers to death as sleep. So doesn't that mean when we die it is like being asleep. When we are asleep we know nothing, except in dreams, we are not conscious.
When we lie down to sleep we know nothing until we wake, time has passed without our knowledge. In sleep we are not dead but our consciousness stops.
In death, are we not like a light that has had it's cord pulled from the socket and lights back up when the cord is plugged back in?

How can we know for sure about this until we experience it? If there are those who have died and are in heaven conscious of everything, why doesn't anyone of them come back and let us know for sure how it is? Now some say they have seen those who have died but I wonder about that?   :dontknow: Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

There are some things that the closest we can get to understanding by pressing in is to see through a glass darkly..... until we know as we are known. IMO Not all things are given to full revelation- altho by all means I am not saying I kno exactly what they are and I certainly believe people can press into revelations that I dont have or even be aware of as revelation.

But Paul said we see some things through a glass darkly. We know in part, and prophesy in part. He speaks of "now" and "then"

John said, "Brethren we know not yet what we shall be, but when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

IMO that is the then.

I believe everything about the resurrection has to do with knowing Him....as He said Himself, "Depart from me I never knew you"

Paul spoke of tthe first rez and spoke of "Pressing in to know Him"- in that context.("that if by any means I might attain to the resurrection from the dead")

"Behold I show you a mystery we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed", If the full details of this were revealed to Paul, he did not reveal them to us in this vague portion of scripture which tells us what and when but not how".... only, "In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...."

And all this had to do with these issues surrounding death without giving any clues as to the absolute nature of the  soul in death except to categorize it as "sleep"(which I believe is literally as close as one can get to it. But what do I kno LOL..... forums are about opinions and evidence)

So in my opinion pressing in to know Him and pressing in to know things in the spirit are not always the same and sometimes counter one another, but only God knows for sure in some things- and while I personally believe not all secrets have been revealed in full, yet, "We have the mind of Christ"... so I read Paul that we are not to strive with each other over such.



Also, while some have come back from death, in my opinion they never got in further than the "lobby"(just my take on it) and besides- we can never tell who to believe because there is so much money and glory awaiting those who come back from hell or heaven :laugh:.

Eaglesway I agree,

CHB

 :cloud9: @ eaglesway.....did you ever notice that none of them ever said they made it into the city? They were always outside the gates....Peace

 :cloud9: You know, I don't think anyone has realized why this is so important to understand in THIS life. Let's say I die without overcoming a whole lot of things. Those things keep my soul in bondage until the Master comes. This is why the Jews pray kaddish for up to a year after a death. This is what He meant by dying in our sins.

The less we die in bondage to (if it be we have to die and are not one reckoned for the resurrection Paul talked about while still in the body), the less time our soul will be spending in the darkness of our own stony heart with the things WE gave birth to. We are judged by the fruit of our own lips and reproved with our own wickedness.

He took Eve, Adam's stony (calcium is a mineral) heart out of him so he could see what it looked like. That was really Adam's moment of death, when he was put to sleep and divided. We too, will be put to sleep and divided (a second time), and have to see face to face what the wife of our spirit, looks like. What will we see? Will she be a virtuous virgin "woman", betrothed only to her husband/spirit? Or will she be as a prostitute laden with sins, joining herself to the flesh continually?

The soul is like a womb and it reproduces whatever seed is planted in it. This is why He said hate and murder are as the same sin. Hate is the seed, but murder is the fruit of that seed. Same with stubbornness and idolatry. Same with rebellion and witchcraft. This is why He told the Pharisees that they have to clean the INSIDE of the cup as well. You can't see your soul/heart, but it must be cleansed as well. This is why He told us to work out our own salvation (word there also means deliverance) with fear and trembling. Cleansing the soul is a process, not a one time thing. We are saved, spirit, soul, and body. My  :2c: Blessings....

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need

 :cloud9: Ok, let me just summarize this for you........BUILD AN ARK, BUILD AN ARK, BUILD AN ARK....... :laughing7: Blessings  :HeartThrob:

The only ark is the secret place of the most high. Get ye in it! :O)

 :eek:  :sigh:

The hull is grace the door is trust :o)

               

Quote from: eaglesway on December 01, 2015, 09:49:27 PM

Quote from: CHB on December 01, 2015, 08:32:04 PM
The Bible refers to death as sleep. So doesn't that mean when we die it is like being asleep. When we are asleep we know nothing, except in dreams, we are not conscious.
When we lie down to sleep we know nothing until we wake, time has passed without our knowledge. In sleep we are not dead but our consciousness stops.
In death, are we not like a light that has had it's cord pulled from the socket and lights back up when the cord is plugged back in?

How can we know for sure about this until we experience it? If there are those who have died and are in heaven conscious of everything, why doesn't anyone of them come back and let us know for sure how it is? Now some say they have seen those who have died but I wonder about that?   :dontknow: Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

There are some things that the closest we can get to understanding by pressing in is to see through a glass darkly..... until we know as we are known. IMO Not all things are given to full revelation- altho by all means I am not saying I kno exactly what they are and I certainly believe people can press into revelations that I dont have or even be aware of as revelation.

But Paul said we see some things through a glass darkly. We know in part, and prophesy in part. He speaks of "now" and "then"

John said, "Brethren we know not yet what we shall be, but when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is."

IMO that is the then.

I believe everything about the resurrection has to do with knowing Him....as He said Himself, "Depart from me I never knew you"

Paul spoke of tthe first rez and spoke of "Pressing in to know Him"- in that context.("that if by any means I might attain to the resurrection from the dead")

"Behold I show you a mystery we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed", If the full details of this were revealed to Paul, he did not reveal them to us in this vague portion of scripture which tells us what and when but not how".... only, "In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the last trump...."

And all this had to do with these issues surrounding death without giving any clues as to the absolute nature of the  soul in death except to categorize it as "sleep"(which I believe is literally as close as one can get to it. But what do I kno LOL..... forums are about opinions and evidence)

So in my opinion pressing in to know Him and pressing in to know things in the spirit are not always the same and sometimes counter one another, but only God knows for sure in some things- and while I personally believe not all secrets have been revealed in full, yet, "We have the mind of Christ"... so I read Paul that we are not to strive with each other over such.



Also, while some have come back from death, in my opinion they never got in further than the "lobby"(just my take on it) and besides- we can never tell who to believe because there is so much money and glory awaiting those who come back from hell or heaven :laugh:.

Some thoughts to consider  also   about , the moment when we die .

Those whom died in faith are with Jesus Christ judging the world now  as many are being joined to Him daily , HE IS THE DAY /resurrection and the children of the DAY are His

  I do and will always believe that when Jesus  went to His cross to die for the sins of the whole world   in the fulness of time Jesus christ come and died  making the open show  and nailing those  ordinances    no one could keep , to HIS   own CROSS   

   , that includes  past present and future  tenses   , this is why Jesus could say , it is finished ''  the work the Father gave Him to do  , this glorified    Jesus Christ  as being the   Master of the dead and the living , giving HIM  TOTAL RIGHT   to all  that come and knee/ bow l before   HIM .

in their time and moment of death being the last enemy  to overcome .
   Jesus has already overcome the  world    /death and all that is in it ..

This one of the very main reasons I believe in UR    !  Because what Jesus Christ has done  on HIS CROSS !

HE IS THE ONLY ONE   whom has a right to judge

When my sister   Pam was in the throes[A severe pang or spasm of pain, as in childbirth. See Synonyms at pain. 2. throes A condition of extreme difficulty or trouble of death the   first time     she was dying   from bleeding to death from an arterial bleed ,
  She was raised      into the presence     of   the LORD JESUS CHRIST    and was able to look down at her mortal body     and  see it , but she said this was not her ,  she was   a being that was experiencing a peace and love  she said she had never ever felt  while being  in her mortal body her whole life .

  I was  shocked by her  testimony  , and she went on the explain  how the paramedics were working frantically on her mortal body to bring her back down into it .

  She did not want   to leave   Jesus Christ presence  ...

  But I will say this  much , SHE CHANGED !!   , she become more spiritually aware    and   her shame become    Gods glory  , and  begin  to glorify GOD  and genuinely try to please God from that moment on ...........
  Later  in life she  developed a brain tumor    and  literally died  at 51 , but was NOT AFRAID     to die ,  this blew me away !!

She glorified God though the whole experience and was a   powerful witness  to the LOVE OF GOD , it changed my perspective as well .

  How I see things,  when it comes to God and death and  dying ...       

  For me  faith is the very substance     that the new creature in Christ is formed  out of  by the HOLY SPIRIT anointing it  and the WORD  is that very  seed planted   made  new   and whole in Him ..

  No man can  even fathom     that work of God  in and though Jesus Christ  , It really is a Holy Spirit  experience  ,  a new birth  come the moment  she knew  Jesus Christ personally  and I believe  with all my heart everyone gets their chance  here or there  ,      because God is that fair ... and JUST and true ... 

Those things will always be hard for the world to understand and never will  , I do believe the Holy Spirit  is teaching us these things  and that is why I do believe in UR  , they have the HOLY SPIRIT   ,GOD   WHOM IS LOVE  ,  LOVE guides us to all truth     , I can say   confidently   now she loved God when she knew Him .

  Makes me love Him more  ,  what mercy and grace flows in the Holy Spirit of Gods love  for us all .

Quote from: eaglesway on December 07, 2015, 08:18:27 AM
The hull is grace the door is trust :o)

:cloud9: Amen. I was shown the Door. It was Spirit, alive, set the heavens, visible over the clouds.

Here's the thing. Both clean and unclean beasts went into the ark. The ark had 3 levels, corresponding to the 3 heavens; the waters below the firmament, the firmament, and the waters above the firmament.

The animals were on the bottom level, and the only way they were going to be RAISED out of that state, was after the judgment of the flesh, and the things holding them in place removed. They stayed there until it was done, and a MAN came down to release them and set them free on the mountaintop.

Same pattern when Moses asked for the Israelites to be allowed to go 3 days into the wilderness to worship Him. It takes 3 days, the 3rd compartment scaled, to be able to worship Him on the mountaintop.

Same pattern with what the Lord did; He stayed in the place of souls, 3 days, feeding the ones enslaved to the carnal beastly natures they had enrobed themselves with, until they were changed and freed to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth after they arose with Him.

Same pattern with the snake of Moses that swallowed the Pharoah's magician's snakes. It was the rod of authority, but took on the image of sinful flesh (serpent nature), that it might be lowered/humbled, and thus raised back up in power and authority, able to display the power of God, which IS the cross (humbling) and the resurrection.

Everyone wants to be resurrected, but no one wants to be humbled first. And so, death, humbles us all, either in dying to self NOW, or going to the place of souls to be made painfully aware of where we missed it.

My message to everyone, as one who has BEEN THERE, is press in now, cleanse the garment (soul) spotted by the flesh (lust, pride, avarice, ect.) and gain the right Paul talked about, the resurrection that takes place while still in the body, mortality swallowed up of immortality.

The pattern was shown us on the mount; there are two ways to be with Him. Elijah was caught up while in the body, Moses had to die physically. The choice is His, but it's to our advantage to press in that we might by any means attain the resurrection, as Paul said. My  :2c: :2c: Blessings...

It's the same pattern with the soul, bound up with the carnal beastly natures she attached herself to.

""Some thoughts to consider  also   about , the moment when we die .

Those whom died in faith are with Jesus Christ judging the world now  as many are being joined to Him daily , HE IS THE DAY /resurrection and the children of the DAY are His ." (rosered)

These are your thoughts, right? What do I do with.....
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

1Co 15:13  and if there be no rising again[resurrection] of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

Joh 6:54  he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Ecc 9:6 Both their love and their hate as well as their jealousy have perished already, And there is no further portion for them for the eon In all that is done under the sun."


I am just asking? :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2015, 07:03:08 PM
""Some thoughts to consider  also   about , the moment when we die .

Those whom died in faith are with Jesus Christ judging the world now  as many are being joined to Him daily , HE IS THE DAY /resurrection and the children of the DAY are His ." (rosered)

These are your thoughts, right? What do I do with.....
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

1Co 15:13  and if there be no rising again[resurrection] of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Joh 3:13 And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."

Joh 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who is beholding the Son and believing in Him may have life eonian, and I shall be raising him in the last day."

Joh 6:54  he who is eating my flesh, and is drinking my blood, hath life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day;

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever; There is no further hire for them; Indeed remembrance of them is forgotten."
Ecc 9:6 Both their love and their hate as well as their jealousy have perished already, And there is no further portion for them for the eon In all that is done under the sun."


I am just asking? :HeartThrob:

  I am always glad when someone asks  Micah ,   

About my faith     in the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ  :dsunny:

But first ........  your scripture

Quote1Co 15:13  and if there be no rising again[resurrection] of dead persons, neither hath Christ risen;

than your faith is in vain 
Lets use this very   scripture  in its context
The Resurrection of the Dead
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection( Jesus christ is the firstborn of the new creation ) of the dead?


13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.

14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.


15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.


16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.


18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.   Hebrews 11   those who fell asleep in Jesus are risen in Christ     NOW  19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

  Jesus Christ Holds all power over   hell / grave and death     ....  satan lost that control the moment one is born again of faith  in the Lord Jesus Christ     


I ask you      than , Do you believe Jesus IS the resurrection and the Life and all things are possible with God ? 

  I am convinced  that this IS what the cross of Jesus Christ is about    , making  everything new

  JESUS IS THE DAY [1000yrs  is a DAY unto the LORD ] the First day , last Day and everything in between       ALL IS HIS  it always was and is and will be .

  The old testament is a witness to the new testament , the very Spirit of prophecy [ unveiling of Jesus Christ  by revelation     John was in the Spirit on the Lords DAY ... not in the flesh..  it inherits squat ]   IT  is Jesus Christ own testimony , I am the resurrection and the life and I believe Jesus  that TODAY  IS THE DAY   and    the Life  Is not Jesus Christ our life and He lives in us ?   He come down  to dwell with mankind    Hebrews 13

Jesus Christ is the Same
...7Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you;

and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited....
   Jesus speaks
  John 11 ...24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...


It is ok Micah  by the Holy Spirit are we even able to  be  praying for one another  :HeartThrob:

Love  and Jesus peace to you and yours this day and always

Please go on, I missed something. If you answered me I did not get it. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

QuoteThese are your thoughts, right? What do I do with.....
Php 3:11 if somehow I should be attaining to the resurrection that is out from among the dead.

I just want to address this  question   Michah , and see the Spiritual growth and measure of the Spirit in  Paul's personal journey in Jesus Christ  being with Him

   at this time was Paul  still under the sufferings of Jesus Christ  and enduring  as his faith was tested  and not reigning  with the Lord yet ...

   We have the place in Scripture where  Paul come to the place where He is  ''fully confident ''  and  no   longer judges  himself  but testifies that it is   the Lord judging  Him  , this is the judgment seat of Christ ....      and GOD sees    him  and judges Him accordingly     to his faith  ,  and if trustworthy will   receive more

To those  given ,  more will be added .. Paul was   by the increase  of Gods grace , given   more revelation or unveiling of Jesus Christ in His Spiritual walk with the Lord  keeping his conscience  clean  of wrongdoing    and exercising faith and fruits of the Spirit being given  as spiritual food   for strength and  endurance    for the inner man   of the heart ..  Paul's joy   in the Lord  , also become the   planting of seeds in men's heart according to the gospel of Jesus Christ a worker in the field   /world and   for the LORD OF HARVEST     ..   

   ...2In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.

4For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord....


The Lord Jesus Christ is His name and He is the judge of the dead and the living

  dying in the Lord or dying in sins   HIS WORD is what judges us in the last day       according to what you were given and How you handled the Word of Life ..   

It is the Holy Spirit working in one whom changes the minds and hearts of mankind , we can only witness and tell  it as we know   it .

  May the peace of Jesus Christ rest upon us all ...

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2015, 07:55:38 PM
Please go on, I missed something. If you answered me I did not get it. :sigh: :HeartThrob:

  It is ok ,  for me  , I just believe it is how we SEE JESUS  , perceive Him   , God knows and you are loved Brother

    You are here for Gods  reason , just the same as  all of us ,    We  are here are to Learn of Him  to the full  :HeartThrob:

So, after quickly re reading this thread "What happens when we die?" The answer is? :dontknow:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2015, 08:28:54 PM
So, after quickly re reading this thread "What happens when we die?" The answer is? :dontknow:

  Some are abiding in death [world ]    not knowing God at all , Micah , they have never lived if they have not been born again   , They have been dead in sin [1 john 3 ]


You want a simple answer  , and  with God everyone is dealt with differently ....
   What you  you  see as death Micah ?       :dontknow:

Quote from: rosered on December 07, 2015, 08:38:52 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2015, 08:28:54 PM
So, after quickly re reading this thread "What happens when we die?" The answer is? :dontknow:

  Some are abiding in death [world ]    not knowing God at all , Micah , they have never lived if they have not been born again   , They have been dead in sin [1 john 3 ]


You want a simple answer  , and  with God everyone is dealt with differently ....
   What you  you  see as death Micah ?       :dontknow:

Under the circumstances, I would say, yes,  :dontknow:, is the best answer-  because we dont need to  :bdh:, or :swordfight: or  :soap: or :BangHead:

Quote from: eaglesway on December 07, 2015, 09:20:11 PM
Under the circumstances, I would say, yes,  :dontknow:, is the best answer because we dont need to  :bdh:, or :swordfight: or  :soap: or :BangHead:

I am so sorry if you think I am arguing with Micah ,
  I am not what so ever John  ,  not  hurt or angry or having to be right   ..lol

   I was only trying to  explain what   death is to me  personally ....

Not that it matters much  :friendstu:

Quote from: rosered on December 07, 2015, 08:38:52 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2015, 08:28:54 PM
So, after quickly re reading this thread "What happens when we die?" The answer is? :dontknow:

  Some are abiding in death [world ]    not knowing God at all , Micah , they have never lived if they have not been born again   , They have been dead in sin [1 john 3 ]


You want a simple answer  , and  with God everyone is dealt with differently ....
   What you  you  see as death Micah ?       :dontknow:

Rosered to answer your question would be  :bdh: been asked and answered. I have no intention of :swordfight: with you, I just honestly do not understand your thoughts. Death is the same for humanity. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

 
I wasnt moderating, I was just expressing my opinion and having fun with smilies.... but

This subject has been discussed and debated endlessly for years and nothing has ever changed that I have seen- people just have different opinions on it, and the original poster dropped out of the discussion long ago.

I have seen this on the threads for years, where a newer member asks an honest question not realizing the can of worms they have opened- then the same endless merry-go-round begins, usually with the same people re-posting the same opinions they posted last time it came around.

I think it would be better to just have something like Micah suggested on the Christmas thread.... some reference threads saying...."On this issue there are two(or three or whatever) basic schools of thought and briefly, and they were fully discussed here- with links to threads were it was beaten to death and buried :o).....


Stuff like.....

What happens when we die

Sovereignity/ free will

preterist view versus historical view

triniarianism vs monotheism

Christmas

All these issues and a few more like them crop up from time to time and are never resolved. Thats no surprise, these positions have been divided and entrenched for 500 years.

There are other sites for debating those issues, and to tell the truth I would rather see no discussion at all than have to sit through another discussion on any of them...

Thats just my personal feeling as a member.   :skittles:

 :thumbsup: :skittles:

I agree John , it is a dead horse     and  nothing has changed     for  many   years ..

  Only Gods  Spirit  has that right  :dsunny:

:HeartThrob:   

 :cloud9: I understand what you're saying John, and to a point I agree.

Since we're sharing opinions.....here's mine, pertaining to this topic this time around.....maybe GOD is having the newbies ask? If it's His board and I for sure believe He uses it, then isn't it possible He might want to be able to deal with the hearts of people with the least amount of muzzling the oxen as possible, which surely is THIS board? Not many, if any, have the freedom we have without food fights.

I know He used it for me today; I received more corroborating evidence (revelation) on this thread today. My view on this subject in general is that it enhances the subject of UR. UR says He saves all, some parts of scripture prove HOW He does it "legally" after the all the parts have been scattered to the wind (died).

You know that annoying kid that took apart all their toys to see how they were made? You're lookin' at her. (so to speak  :laughing7:) Blessings....

Yes, I agree that the Spirit spurs questionings in new believers. I just dont think the kind of cyclical debate that develops from those questions really serves them or the purpose of the site. That is why I think we need an alternate solution, so we can direct them where they can objectively(since all the various positions usually get expressed in these threads) study for themselves without having to re-engage these long repetitive torturous threads.

One thing that makes me pretty sure about that is that without fail I have seen that the asker in the OP nearly always quickly disappears from the thread, leading me to believe that the nature of these arguments is confusing and often gets a little "stinky" (as dead horses usually do lol)- so I dont think it serves them any better than it serves the purpose that the Lord had in leading Gary to establish this site, to promote UR.  :2c:


maybe a category of sticky posts on the main questions that fit the category, like theo ones we all know

Is the devil and entity or a principle

Trinity versus Monotheism

Calvinism versus Arminianism

Preterism versus historical view

etc, etc.

Micah   said ,,

QuoteRosered to answer your question would be  :bdh: been asked and answered. I have no intention of :swordfight: with you, I just honestly do not understand your thoughts. Death is the same for humanity. :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

  I just believe sometimes   the Bible/ Word describes death and its not  always   so literal  or to be taken so carnally .

Death has many  facets  in it   when described in the Word  , that  many ,  especially the newbies   in UR ,  have not even considered yet ...


death is just being carnally minded and  wars against the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE ... :dsunny:


   :bdh:  The dead horse is some can never ever get past  that  understanding  , it takes the Quickening of the Holy Spirit to help us  see   it ,

  But it will never be  seen when the Spirit is quenched     , by not allowing the Word to be written down and shared when the   Holy Spirit  moves on this forum

Years ago I may not have understood something  , so it  made me go digging  deeper   ,

and would have never   done that if   there was nothing to "spark " that    Light  in me to seek  , knock and    and the Good Lord would open   and answer ..


I know that sometimes  when we think we are helping we are hindering  , and  times hinder when we think we are helping  ..

If the Holy Spirit is  NOT  teaching  nor comforting us  , learning to LOVE  one another with practice in these   things ,   than the head knowledge  just "puffs up "   as you pointed out in a tread , I read the other day John and the blessing was in it to remind me     , and the is the Holy Spirit reminding us of JESUS WORDS  SPOKEN  in the New testament  to lead us and guild us  to ALL TRUTH     ...    and not to keep us in the dark .

  We are    them serving  instruments in Gods divine plan    to let the Light of the gospel Shine   though   that  darkness    and satan comes along for the ride ...

Because  he does his work in the dark   hearts of mankind's stinking  thinking  ,     the pride of mankind

Matt 23 11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.

12"Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

13"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in....

   That law of the knowledge of good and evil    is where satan's seat   is  , where the judgment without mercy is  known 

The law of Life  is Love  , Jesus  has   proven this with His own WORDS   and how they  tried to trap Him , because He was bringing life to those whom were  as dead men walking  and devouring one another  " full of dead men's bones  ", and they   desired  and  wanted HIM DEAD   for it ....
  Trying to shut  hinder  the  WORD OF LIFE  , stop the ears from hearing what the Spirit is saying .
Just  :2c:

quote - opening post.. I can never resist a good quiz! :girlheart:

:Chinscratch: does UR require human inherent immortality? (I don't see why..) I think it's possible believers are conscious in death.. but not for the not (yet) saved, as I believe "only He is immortal" therefor no need for any sort of 'hell' or any sort of holding cell.. but they will wake to 'Day' of Judgment/Atonement. (Being 2 ages, the resurrection to life and, or the resurrection to judgment/Atonement,imo. (Lev.23 as the patterns of the 2 advents of Christ)
--------------------

Quote
Hello:

I am unable to find a direct answer on this forum and it wasn't even posted on tentmaker.org website. I searched everywhere.

1) Stephen spirit was departed before he got stoned to death - he saw the gate of heaven being opened. This completely negate soul-sleep.

:Chinscratch: It was a vision? which there is other accounts of occurring to others who did not die afterwards?

Quote
2) During the Old Testament, most of the spirit of both unbelievers and believers were imprisoned (aka death).

It was the place where all go.. Jacob said he would go to sheol grieving.. Job or Jacob, I can never remember which, asked God to hide him in sheol.. and Ecclesiastes 9:10 says to do all which you can now because in sheol there is neither thought nor doing. And Psalm 30, describes sheol as "can the dust praise You?" Isaiah 14 says it is where worms are the bed and blanket..

But I think believers are softly sleeping in His arms (and heart) awaiting His voice, which "all in the tombs will hear". It was a deception in the very early church, of a certain sect to say the resurrection had occurred.. Is that in 1 Timothy? :dontknow:

Quote
3) Moses and Elijah spoke with the Lord at mount transfiguration. If spirit is not conscious and yet Moses and Elijah spoke with the lord at that time. 

:dontknow: I do know the scripture says "He alone is immortal.." I've heard the theory they came into time from the eternal kingdom.. or that the disciples only thought it was Moses and Elijah.. Elijah of course did not die but was taken up in a heavenly chariot.. And Enoch, "God took him"..

Quote
4) After Christ died, all of the spirit in the prison were opened, old-testament saints and sinners alike (resurrection?).

Actually it doesn't say all.. but some.. and it doesn't say they continued alive.. that's the only note of it in all history

Quote
Let me get this straight: when I die, my spirit (conscious) will depart and be with the lord determining whether I will participate in the 1st or 2nd resurrection. Meanwhile, my body will remain in the grave sleeping lifeless remembering nothing. This happened to Stephen.

- Seventh-Day Adventist upholds Soul-Sleep and has been debunked numerous of time.
- Mormon and JW are very similar to SDA.
- Baptist upholds the view of hell and has been debunked by several well known author such as tentmaker.org or universal salvationist.

Direct answer please, no vague answer otherwise wouldn't that make God the author of confusion if the Bible is so difficult to comprehend?

EDIT: here are some scriptural evidence:

Scripture assures believers of their souls' destiny at death:

Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—for we walk by faith, not by sight—we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6–8, emphasis added)

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake. (Philippians 1:21–24)

I agree it makes no sense that "resurrection" means only of the body. ..When I die, I expect the next thing I know I'll be with the Lord.. I believe all are resurrected into an age.. believers "at His return" to a "resurrection of life" and that "the rest of the dead live not again until after the thousand years" but rise to a "resurrection of Judgment"/discernment/'Day`of Atonement"/"Great 'Day' of Forgiveness as the CEV says it. :gsmile:

Quote

And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My Spirit." Having said this, He breathed His last. (Luke 23:46)

So when Jesus died his body became lifeless, remembers nothing. But according to Luke 23:46 - his spirit went back to his father, consciously. Baptist preachers said he went to hell for 3 days and 3 nights - nowhere taught in the scripture.

The stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:54–59).
The transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–8; Mark 9:1–8; Luke 9:28–36) - represented as having bodies.
Rachel's soul departing when she died (Genesis 35:18).

18And with her last breath— for she was dying— she named him Ben-oni. But his father called him Benjamin. 19So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem

Quote
Putting death to the flesh (1 Peter 3:18).

"Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the spirit,"

"death could not hold Him" Acts 2:24

Quote
Spiritual body after death (2 Corinthians 5:1–5).

"5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee."

1 Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and, the dead, will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then, shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

1 Thessalonians 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 5:28 - "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves, will hear His voice, 29 and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."

Quote
Redemption of our spiritual bodies (Romans 8:23-24).

23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly
- waiting for - the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees

Quote
(John 5:28-29). Resurrection of life and Resurrection of damnation.

"Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment

Quote
Unbelievers and believers alike will be raised (Acts 24:15)

Absolutely! If some are lost why raise them?!

"I have hope (Greek, expectation!) in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust."

Quote
Two more passages bear further discussion. First, John 11:23–27:

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."

Notice Jesus corrected Martha's belief that her brother would only "live" in the resurrection. In contrast, Jesus revealed that believers will live even if they die, and in fact, they will never die in the way that our bodies do.

"will live even if he dies" - we have to take into account all pertaining verses.. so if we keep reading year after year.. i believe all untruth will fade away from our understanding..

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Luke 23:42–43. Instead of, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise," they argue Jesus really said, "Truly I say to you today, - you shall be with Me in Paradise." But Scripture includes no other instance of Jesus saying, "I say to you today." This adds to the likelihood that, as every English translation indicates, Jesus was emphasizing that today was the time He and the thief would be together in paradise. And even Jesus's statement, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit," points to His being spiritually in God's presence immediately upon death.

Jesus told Mary on the 3rd day after His death and after He rose, that He had nit yet ascended to the Father..

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Samuel was angry because his sleep had been disturbed. However, sleep is not mentioned in the passage.the text only says, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" (1 Samuel 28:15). Further, as Thomas Constable noted, "This passage does not say that the witch brought up Samuel from the dead. God revealed Samuel to Saul."

For Christians, death means we will finally, immediately be face-to-face with our Father?

I see this as possible but not for the not (yet) saved.. as I believe "He alone is immortal" and thus no need for a 'hell' of any sort!
    :Peace2: "gsmile"

Quote
Thanks! Grace to you all!

     :girlheart: :friendstu: Great study!

"sheol" comes from the hebrew word "sa'al" which means "ask". The root concept is "unknown"(thats why we "ask").  Most internet defintions are "conjecture" as are many dictionary definitions, based on Greek thought and historic translations like "hades"(Gr.); "inferno"(Latin); "hell"(norse) which all had nothing to do with any true etymology but were implanted because of their mythological relationships to the abode of the dead in the underworld in those mythological cosmologies.

The Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon sorts all these and basically says that there is no accepted absolute etymological root connection to these translations and that they are conjecture.

The word "unkown" or "ask" became connected with the grave because no one knows what is on the other side of this life.... and that is the reason(imo) why there is no sound systematic theological answer to what happens when we die that doesnt involve ignoring some part of scripture. Paul says we "sleep", the Ecclesiastes says the "dead know nothing" and even tho Ecclesiastes is a book of metaphors, poetry and analogies, people have build a "rock solid" theology about death from that. The truth(imo) is that no one knows and all attempts to build a construct on these staements are just the arrogance of man, who cant stand saying, "I am not sure" or"there are some scriptures that make me think this may be true" or "there are some scriptures that make me think that might be true" when really, "Well, I see through a glass darkly but I think this" is th most honest answer available.

I dont believe anyone has it "right", or "down pat" because we cant see it yet and God ain't giving it out in handbook form to anyone.  :2c:

 :thumbsup: Amen, yet we can know that "He alone is immortal".. 

 

  I dont know , it seems to me   we have more knowledge increased than ever before ,   and know things that   just the very generations  before us were , just 300  years ago , were  hidden   and still mysteries  ,  Like the U.S.   was not a  nation yet   till July 4, 1776 , now look at the  advancements of technology ,   people have gone and come back to life and got the glimpse  , such as Paul did  way back than to describe    things  of God never known to mankind .
  How long ago was it there was no bibles  to read   just by word of mouth ?    just the sacred scripts  given  from the mouth of prophets   to share with the chosen few .

  Now we have more bibles and translations than  ever   and yet , the WORD OF GOD   says   ,  its not  a famine   for the WORD OF GOD  that is   going to be the  problem , it is the famine for ''hearing ''   the Word of God ...Amos 8:11-12


or to me it is ,  Hearing what the Holy Spirit is saying . 

Because the  3 things   that  Paul gives as  most important   things to posses  is faith , hope and love
  and Jesus    describes    this in His testimony /witness 
When I return will I find faith on the earth ?
  and hope   is not hope    if we cannot keep the faith works of the Holy Spirit  alive in us !

  and the love  , well because we see so much iniquity abounding all the more  , the love is  lacking  as the outward appearances  of seeing  things and yet  it is the unseen     that is working  everything to the glory of God  yet to be known  to all His creation  .

    Jesus Christ  gave us hope eternal by the  Holy Spirits   works of faith for Loves sake


Romans 4:18
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, "So shall your offspring be."

Romans 8:20
For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope  21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.

23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all.

Who hopes for what he can already see?


25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently

.26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness.


For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words.

27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:18
So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

2 Corinthians 5:7
For we walk by faith, not by sight.

1 Thessalonians 5:8
But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.

Titus 3:7
so that, having been justified by His grace, we would become heirs with the hope of eternal life.

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.


If we are looking   like the pharisees  said they see  , their sin remains ,    Faith is really what Jesus was trying to convey

  it is not seen but heard by the Spirit  and felt  and known by   the love of God in the heart ....   to me  as I can tell .

Absolutely! For one thing, the way the world is, it seems kind of crazy to believe one day it will be a perfect paradise.. :dsunny: :friendstu:

 :cloud9: For my  :2c:.....at death we have conscious knowledge that the soul and spirit of man are divided asunder, like a woman and man divorced, which is what happened in the garden. The soul stays trapped temporarily in whatever "she" did not overcome while still in the body, until the time appointed of the Lord for her visitation (Him going after the "one"), whereas the spirit returns to the one that sent it. The first resurrection is the reunion of soul and spirit, in Him. Paul spoke of a superior resurrection, ie. one while still in the body, where mortality is swallowed up of immortality, which is the promised to the overcomer in this life. Our soul is like a womb and she reproduces whatever seed is "planted" in her. This is what the parable is referring to regarding someone planting seed in a field while he was asleep. Adam was put to sleep but you cannot find where He ever woke him up until we read, "Arise and shine, for thy light is come", which is a reference to He that died so we might live. Matt. 13 shows how these seeds, these tares are dealt with in the end of OUR world, our mortal body with it's soul, the field that has been planted in. It is the bad seeds, the tares that are cast into the fire.

I don't expect anyone to believe me, but He took me with Him in Spirit and I felt "myself" pass through the floor, then down through the earth until He reached one of His and set her free to ascend. I had 5 witnesses to what was happening and they were praying and made aware by Him of what was happening and what she needed to be delivered from, as it happened, to set her soul free. I knew the person He went after, she was saved according to doctrine and baptized in the Holy Ghost, while still alive. He begins a work in our souls and it is not finished until we are every whit WHOLE again, IN HIM. That IS truly, the good news! Blessings to all....

 :2c: what God has joined togather let no man[of sin]put asunder.Jesus asks..where is your Mother's certificate of divorcement?and

calls her back toHim.

especially considering nothing can separate us from the Loveof God.Unto the woman caught in the very act of adultery..He said,neither

do I condemn thee.

  however,..there is another '[spirit]man' the man of 'sin 'prince of 'this' world...he hates the harlot/whore..exposes her nakedness/shame

instead of covering it in love

 :2c: Eccl3;21 who knows if the spirit of man rises UP...and if the spirit of the 'beast' goes down into the earth?

   when an animals flesh dies....fleas/lice etc....jump 'ship' lest they too..go down into the earth..and have a continuous fall..they

may even come up'out of the earth" again..jump some other earthly body to ride. that's the second resurrection..the likeness of

what all satan and his expierence...never to rise to heaven...only awaiting their final judgement/LOF.

   when God calls a man up..that sWORD cuts[circumcises]his spirit from his fleshly vessel..and his spirit rise unto heaven..andis

clothed with the BEST ROBE[celestial/incorruptible/immortal body]His body vesselis lowered into the earth[in the imageof the corrupt

one]a big 'CHANGE"of garments happens. We shall all be changed :2c:

He is creating a world and reality where ALL will be love, and ALL ruled by Love.. by Him / Love :cloud9: (no room in that for eternal conscious torment for sure! ..and I don't believe in any sort of temporary torture either) :gsmile:

We may differ in our thoughts on how His program (administration) is administered.. rolled out.. proceeds and is fulfilled.. But we are agreed on the end result! :friendstu: :cloud9: :thumbsup:

 :2c:when the 'beast'comes up out of the earth and'jumps' another man..he makes 'the living dead'and spiritual zombies out of them..

they become'out of their [right[eous]mind[Christ's]the hapless man..so jumped..becomes a leg-I-on for these liar/thieving and murdering

wicked spirits..they make such men as'tombs"of the living dead.

 :2c:   John 5;28 the hour is coming,and is now..when all those in the tombs shall hear his voice and come out....those who have

done good[all men are good/righteous] shall rise to live,and those who have done evil[satans wicked works of the devil] will rise[upout of

earth dead body of man they killed] to be condemned/cursed...to LOF 2nd death-eternal death.Why we curse no man,but BLESS ALL


   all men get the free gift of righteousness and eternal life through the works done by God through His son Jesus...that is why our

salvation is not of works.


  Phillipians 2;10  that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow,in heaven and on earth and UNDER THE EARTH.......

yes,the enemy shall bow and acknowledge[confess] him as Lord before their execution in the LOF


all men's flesh died through the devils works.[a taste of death..but not true eternal death[LOF].

and all men's spirits shall live through God's..and through His son's works of SALVATION[mine own right arm,[Jesus] worked salvation.

Death broken up by life eternal.BY THE RESURRECTION..AND BY MY SPIRIT


  satan and evil spirits will remain here[and not rise to heaven] God's curse[condemnation] remains on them..until fire comes down

from heaven and consumes them.  But,ye sons of men are not consumed because of His great love.  IT IS WRITTEN BY THE FINGER

OF GOD...and will NOT return unto Him void.His word and His spirit is victorious over all the power of the enemy.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  When Michael stands up..ALL your people are delivered..not just a few 'special' but ALL.

 :cloud9: @ Sheila........More like when......"His Spirit descended into the earth/heart of man for 3 days, then arose BRINGING MANY WITH HIM"......for a pattern......3rd day and 7th day converging, a double Sabbath happening, a Jubilee also when every man's possessions returned to him, in this case HIS house was restored to Him, because it's ALL about Him.

Actually, it's the fulfillment of the all the feasts in one, just like all the feasts occurred on one day mentioned in OT, because those feasts are patterns/messages of what is to come to men. The fulfillment of the 7th day also means a planned "crop failure", because of Jubilee all those things that were planted in the soul that had him bound are not allowed to come to full harvest. He IS the 7th day, no part darkness, He IS the resurrection, and He raises up all men according to His will and timing, as He is also the Lord of the HARVESTS.  Blessings....

Now,drink of the juice of the pomegranate..of a CR[y[IST-AL[l] glass. Be comforted with  A P[p]LE A assures[pleasure of His will]

and be strengthened with the RAISI[N}G'S [resurrection]OF THE SONS OF GOD[for those faint of love]

they will faint not but renew strength as on the wings of an eagle they shall rise up. :2c:SOS

Quote from: marie glen on May 14, 2019, 05:46:35 PM
He is creating a world and reality where ALL will be love, and ALL ruled by Love.. by Him / Love :cloud9: (no room in that for eternal conscious torment for sure! ..and I don't believe in any sort of temporary torture either) :gsmile:

We may differ in our thoughts on how His program (administration) is administered.. rolled out.. proceeds and is fulfilled.. But we are agreed on the end result! :friendstu: :cloud9: :thumbsup:

What I am referring to is not a "temporary torture", we are told we will eat of the fruit of our OWN LIPS and be reproved with our OWN wickedness. He doesn't inflict anything, we do it to ourselves, reaping what was sown in our own soul, but indeed we do have a Redeemer of spirit, SOUL, and body and He comes to all in due season.....my  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: sheila on May 14, 2019, 06:57:32 PM
Now,drink of the juice of the pomegranate..of a CR[y[IST-AL[l] glass. Be comforted with  A P[p]LE A assures[pleasure of His will]

and be strengthened with the RAISI[N}G'S [resurrection]OF THE SONS OF GOD[for those faint of love]

they will faint not but renew strength as on the wings of an eagle they shall rise up. :2c:SOS

Amen, fruitfulness of wisdom in the redeemed soul, a soul no longer seeing through a darkened glass = a soul no longer spotted with the sins of the flesh instead of the light/understanding of Christ and a soul no longer wrinkled by the inability to produce a garment that is seamless in doctrine and both sides of the "fold" match up perfectly, ie. line up line, precept upon precept, the sons of God (which is not one but two in union/His covenant, He called THEIR name Adam, as it was so in the beginning). Blessings.....

 :2c:   :thumbsup:  Bex.......when we believe the lie of the devil..that men are put in the LOF..we suffer torment from believing

the lie/plague. Believing the liar[demon]is our own iniquity.TRUTH and Peace from God. Come out of her My people,lest ye receive of

her plagues...such as ET ED,LOF/HELLFIRE,HADES

  Passing -OVER from death to LIFE=OVERCOMING ALL OF THE POWER OF THE WICKED ONE TO DECIEVE.  Taking no pleasure in the lie

but rejoicing in the truth.  The Holy Spirit leads into ALL truth..and the truth sets free..free of thecurse[LOF] freeof death..freeof the

power of the enemy..

  Our spirits were 'firstborn' in heaven [stars] on the fourth creation day. Allof Father's spirit infants fell to the earth whenHe sowed

[planted] them as trees of righteousness. We know stars rise in the night...and are really su

• ns...and we must be born again into[of]
  
  heaven..the daystar[sun/son]must rise with healing in it's wings.
  
  so we do have3 and seven..but also 4 and 8. :girlheart:

 :2c: the restoration of the soul is like the joy that cometh in the morning[weeping in the night],because a son is born in the world] and a

daystar rising in your heart. :girlheart:

not many believe unto the saving of the soul.

 :2c:Listen..the 'torment'of the LOGOS is the hole in His side......a great volume was written...LO!I come to do your will,of me it is written

certain books,through an evil tribunal..were rejected.Some things ,hard to understand,were twisted to our own destruction.These things

left a 'breach' or' wound' in the Body of Christ's fullness.HOLY..is whole.

the earth[present earth] can not contain all of the books written.I have many things yet to declare unto you..but at present you cannot

bear them.Love doesn't heap up loads impossible to bear.......thus we are not saved by knowledge. Star differs from star in their

constellations...and we all function as part of one body with differing members[feet/eye/arm etc]neither one body member puffed up

over other's..but for edifying of all

I was simply told to read/follow, digest and assimiliate what I was able to...........and share...... :girlheart:

 :2c:  Bex..even if a man of [carnal mind of a beast] fall in a ditch [blind=3 days of darkness]on the Sabbath he is got out. :thumbsup:

many mens 3 days journey in the wilderness of this earth have been a groping about in the darkness...and lost..or they followed the

blind..and they both ended up in the ditch[been there..done that] :girlheart:

 I enjoyed this exchange very much , thank you all for sharing   , so helpful

the serpent mind is keeping us'' bound up ''in  disobedience /rebellion and  DEATH .

the keys to the kingdom is all about   MERCY setting  the prisoners free  by the TRUTH

  the Lord Jesus Christ is that key  by that CROSS  that opens HEAVEN !!!    :2c:

:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on May 14, 2019, 06:58:19 PM

Quote from: marie glen on May 14, 2019, 05:46:35 PM
He is creating a world and reality where ALL will be love, and ALL ruled by Love.. by Him / Love :cloud9: (no room in that for eternal conscious torment for sure! ..and I don't believe in any sort of temporary torture either) :gsmile:

We may differ in our thoughts on how His program (administration) is administered.. rolled out.. proceeds and is fulfilled.. But we are agreed on the end result! :friendstu: :cloud9: :thumbsup:

What I am referring to is not a "temporary torture", we are told we will eat of the fruit of our OWN LIPS and be reproved with our OWN wickedness. He doesn't inflict anything, we do it to ourselves, reaping what was sown in our own soul, but indeed we do have a Redeemer of spirit, SOUL, and body and He comes to all in due season.....my  :2c: Blessings....

oh.. I didn't think you were.. we are in agreement, I believe, that any torment upon Judgment 'Day' is within.. And earthly judgments are (usually) results and consequences of ones own doings.. words, and thoughts.. I was just clarifying my own belief.. Sorry to not be clearer.. God bless! :gsmile:

Quote from: sheila on May 14, 2019, 07:22:23 PM


  Our spirits were 'firstborn' in heaven [stars] on the fourth creation day. Allof Father's spirit infants fell to the earth whenHe sowed ...

Do you have a, or scriptures which cause you to believe that? thanks..

Sisters, how do you interpret 1 Tim.6:16 - "He alone is immortal.."

"The wages of sin is death" - I understand so many believe this to be not death itself.. I've always thought that's how hell crept in so easily.

I can't help thinking if the idea of human inherent immortality didn't exist, neither would the idea of hell.

The Hebrews via the OT (not their Talmudic myths, which Jesus poked fun of with the Lazarus and rich man parable?) did not believe in human immortality but the grave (dust of, ps.30, etc) but the nations did.. via torment for all those disobedient citizens..

no immortal soul (psyche) = no hell.

And lof as man's doings, results, consequences fully mushroomed at Armageddon which Jesus returns in the midst of lest all perish.. (again, no hell) 2 Thess.1:7-8

[the other 2 mentions in Rev. are the final defeat of the adversary; and at the "all, in all" event at Rev.21:1-5]

And voila! With those 2 (truths?) hell vanishes..

Please forgive if my post causes any sort of stress.. I have never understood a 'biblically' based idea of inherent immortality.. and I have always blamed it for the hell myth.. as its support..
   :Peace2: :girlheart: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: marie glen on May 15, 2019, 04:07:49 PM
Sisters, how do you interpret 1 Tim.6:16 - "He alone is immortal.."

"The wages of sin is death" - I understand so many believe this to be not death itself.. I've always thought that's how hell crept in so easily.

I can't help thinking if the idea of human inherent immortality didn't exist, neither would the idea of hell.

The Hebrews via the OT (not their Talmudic myths, which Jesus poked fun of with the Lazarus and rich man parable?) did not believe in human immortality but the grave (dust of, ps.30, etc) but the nations did.. via torment for all those disobedient citizens..

no immortal soul (psyche) = no hell.

And lof as man's doings, results, consequences fully mushroomed at Armageddon which Jesus returns in the midst of lest all perish.. (again, no hell) 2 Thess.1:7-8

[the other 2 mentions in Rev. are the final defeat of the adversary; and at the "all, in all" event at Rev.21:1-5]

And voila! With those 2 (truths?) hell vanishes..

Please forgive if my post causes any sort of stress.. I have never understood a 'biblically' based idea of inherent immortality.. and I have always blamed it for the hell myth.. as its support..
   :Peace2: :girlheart: :HeartThrob:

  No stress to me sister Marie ,
   Had the grandsons all day and could not post ........

  This is just my own faith  , everyone can  have their own beliefs
  But   do not mind sharing  mine

When it says He alone is IMMORTAL   ,,,   in the context 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

  1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us.


I am convinced we are a part of the being born again of the incorruptible seed  , being His offspring and  having the Christ in you the hope of Glory is the  putting on the immortality
    because in Him He holds everything together in him and by him and for Him , nothing was made that was not made   COL 3

are we immortal in the sense of   after death of the body[no flesh inherits anything but death ]  .......    the soul and spirit lives on because it is GODS  substance  and nature

1 Corinthians 15:53-55(AMPC)
53 For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished forever) in and unto victory.

55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?

I believe Jesus when He says some  have passed from death to Life already  and have put on immortality and will never die     

  John 11 ...25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies. 26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
and He alone gives immortal/ETERNAL   life to whom ever he wants to..


JOHN 3 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him....
:HeartThrob:

Quote from: rosered on May 16, 2019, 01:07:20 AM

I believe Jesus when He says some  have passed from death to Life already  and have put on immortality and will never die     

1 John 3;14 " We KNOW that we have passed FROM death TO life because we love the brothers."

1 John 3;24 " And this is how we KNOW that HE lives in us; by the spirit which He has GIVEN us."

1 John 4;1 " Dear friends do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to find out whether they are from God,
                   because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

We live amongst those false spirits today.

1 John 4;13-15 " By this we know that we live in God and He in us because He has given us of His spirit.
                         And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son as the savior of the world.
                         If anyone confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God."

This is the key to the reality of what we have been taught about who Christ actually is and what He has done.
Many churches talk about Jesus, which I.M.O is the start of their coming to understand.
Been there, done that.
Then Paul makes one of those interesting observations to the Corinthians after he has written to them about love and how to live;

2 Cor 13;5 " Examine yourselves to see if you are in the faith.
                   Test yourselves.
                   Or do you not realize Christ is in you- unless of course you fail the test?"

I.M.O this is the teachings about the Ecclesia/chosen who know the truth.
We are in Christ's faith, not our own, and are starting to see everything from His perspective as we grow in His faith.
Hence it is no longer I who lives, but Christ who lives in me.
This is the one faith, one body... Christ alone.
We become immortal when He reveals and teaches us. This differentiates between the spirit of life, which all living creatures have, and the Holy Spirit which He gives us at our appointed time. Just like physical birth happens when the seed is planted, the same for the spiritual birth.

I.M.O this is why we no longer hate anyone, just their actions. We know that they to will come to the resurrection and life, just like we have, when Christ speaks and deals with them- heaps of that in the coming ages.

1 Cor 2;14-16 " The natural man DOES NOT RECEIVE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD,
                        for they are foolish to him;
                        HE CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
                        BUT THE SPIRITUAL PERSON DISCERNS ALL THINGS,
                        and is not himself subject to anyone's scrutiny.
                        For who has know the mind of Christ so as to advise Him?
                         But we have the mind of Christ."

 
  Thanks Ross amazing !  I do not think GOD is a respecter of persons  ever at all , eternal life is the FREE GIFT OF GOD , not earned , but mercy and grace  by GOD s own power  demonstrated though JESUS CHRIST/THE LOVE OF GOD manifested  to us ,  pouring out His  Spirit   on all flesh .

  I   do see eternal life  / always  and immortality /incorruptible  as being the same   thing not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

John 10;28   27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father's hand....

   I see it as the promise   in Christ  as a new creation given immortal/eternal life  from HIS  death is the last enemy ALREADY WON  , BECAUSE HE DID FINISHED THIS WORK ON THE CROSS 
being dead before in sin  is  all mankind / adam  and now alive in Christ as a new creation by His own Power to save the world


Ephesian 2 5 Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).

6 And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).

7 He did this that He might clearly demonstrate through the ages to come the immeasurable (limitless, surpassing) riches of His free grace (His unmerited favor) in [His] kindness and goodness of heart toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]

10 For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

Strong's G166 - aiōnios
αἰώνιος
Transliteration

aiōnios

Pronunciation

ī-ō'-nē-os (Key)


Part of Speech

adjective
Root Word (Etymology)

From αἰών (G165)

Outline of Biblical Usage
without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

without beginning

without end, never to cease, everlasting

Strong's G861 - aphtharsia
ἀφθαρσία
Transliteration

aphtharsia

Pronunciation

ä-fthär-sē'-ä (Key)


Part of Speech

feminine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

From ἄφθαρτος (G862)

outline of Biblical Usage
incorruption, perpetuity

purity, sincerity, incorrupt   

I see this as the  WORD of truth  by the Spirit of Truth setting us  ALL  free    in  the Lord Jesus Christ IN ALL  because by Him and though HIM does everything exist and without Him nothing does exist  ! 
     this is what changed my own mind  a   long while  ago

4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all....

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Ephesians 4:13
until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, as we mature to the full measure of the stature of Christ.

I do believe  GOD does have mercy on all   ,  the mercy seat is the  key to understanding Gods will that none should perish

and understanding the DAY OF THE LORD and the making of  the children of ONE  DAY  , The DAY    2Peter The Day of the Lord
...8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

10But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and its works will be laid bare....

   for me , Repentance   is found  when  every knee will bow and tongue confess the LORD JESUS CHRIST SEEING HIM AS HE IS  :HeartThrob:
the HOLY ONE   till  it be known   as  God being  all in all ...    :HeartThrob:   this is my    faith   believing openly  expressed  in the power of GOD   to save  anyone any time and anywhere  He chooses to do so  :2c:

Genesis1;14-19...stars created[mens spirits]

   Secrets of Enoch ch 25..the visible and invisble comes down[see bride descending from heaven...Rev 21;2]

   SOE ch 30 4-6

    SOE 30;12 I conceived a cunning saying to say,I created man from invisible and visible nature,

                     OF BOTH ARE HIS DEATH AND LIFE AND IMAGE

    1 Cor 15;35-50....as we have born the image of the earthly,we shall also bear the image of the heavenly


   we are both fearfully and wonderfully made.

   Basically mans spirit is made in the image of God..and TOL is our natural family tree...we are spirit creatures/children of God...our

  natural spirit has God's divine nature

Jesus granted we live from it.   TOKOGAE is ADAM/man of flesh..what is visible...corruptible image...that God's spiritual seed is sown in

   there is no law against LOVE...GOD IS LOVE...and our spirits are conceived in LOVE.

   for those awake/spiritualy quickened while here in flesh..our challenge is too 'rule over" the evil contrast/subject it to Christ and

bring forth the love nature/spirit visibly-good of TOKOGAE[God only good-thus good works.

Jesus said..make the tree good or make the tree evil....and we know from the beginning God's stated purpose of making man in HIS

image and likeness=TOL..mans metamorphesusor "CHANGED" til then we wrestle with sin/the adversary for reign over this weakened

corruptible vessel[body of death] Jesus come down and fulfilled the law covenant[TOKOGAE-and showed us the goodness of God..let

us know any failure with wrestling the adversary[sin] while in this weak corruptible vessel would not result in our losing the freegift

of eternallife..that God was not counting it against our spirit life. However, the devil on the loose and not restrained would bring us

great woe.Keep His commandments...don't fear the death of this temporal body of death..or satans accusations and desire to have

our spirits destroyed eternally..or tortured after we rise..for any failure while in this weakend corruptible body of death.He has

shown mercy unto His sons that serve him. God granted Jesus to have life in HIMSELF[tol]AND TO GIVE IT FREELEY UNTO ALL MEN

to comfort them in the midstof their suffering the wickedness and evil in this world.He also left us a perfect example of what pleases

our Father..and showed us by laying down our lives in this world...the way HOME UNTO OUR FATHER. That we should be merciful

unto all men also...in their suffering..that if one member of the body suffer,so do we all.To relieve,encourage,forgive,comfort one another

as best we can. To pray for any fellowman that satan has gained control over and is using in a wicked way todo his will. :2c:

   But resist satan..exercise self-control and do your utmost to be a vessel for honourable use

Amen, we should seek to show ourselves approved by every word of God..

I think it's possible BELIEVERS have immortality now, and put on the body at His return.. "put on immortality" - of course many think His return is an individual thing (?) not so much gobal?

But those not saved are STILL "perishing".

     NO inherent immortality (b4 redemption) ='s NO hell, or even holding cell..

So it's ok if we disagree - as to the state of the saved dead.

BUT human inherent immortality - BEFORE RECONCILIATION - I think directly contradicts God's words.. "He alone is immortal."

I also think the gray area called afterlife keeps UR from being obvious. :sigh:

Quote from: marie glen on May 16, 2019, 04:48:04 PM
Amen, we should seek to show ourselves approved by every word of God..

I think it's possible BELIEVERS have immortality now, and put on the body at His return.. "put on immortality" - of course many think His return is an individual thing (?) not so much gobal?

But those not saved are STILL "perishing".

     NO inherent immortality (b4 redemption) ='s NO hell, or even holding cell..

So it's ok if we disagree - as to the state of the saved dead.

BUT human inherent immortality - BEFORE RECONCILIATION - I think directly contradicts God's words.. "He alone is immortal."

I also think the gray area called afterlife keeps UR from being obvious. :sigh:

sister Marie , you are right about UR being   the hidden treasure  of the heart .

  I just believe many  are saved though death by being the last enemy 

FROM  Jesus Christ being the immortal ONE /Resurrection = Basically   OUR Everything  =Total  SUM 

the total amount resulting from the addition of two or more numbers, amounts, or items.
"the sum of two prime numbers"   
synonyms:   total, sum total, grand total, tally, aggregate, summation, gross; answer

  Being both the LORD of the dead and the Living =  total sum

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.

John 12:24
Truly, truly, I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.


I believe the Spirit moves  in hearts that the flesh does not have   a clue about  and yes , I am one whom sees it   as individually

  an example ;  God  made it impossible for us to judge by appearances .or what seems to be .

  you have 3 different people and one type of pill

  what might heal one , will cause the other to not be effected at all ,and it might kill the last one

It is impossible  to judge  everything   as good  or evil of itself  .

  But we have this amazing faith in God given to us   by the perfect sacrifice   already  made and grace that carries us  though this life , most are not awakened  fully  to yet .......   :HeartThrob:

 :2c:TWO TREES in the garden....TOKOGAE=flesh man Adam[sinner.]...TOL-spirit man/Christ.

   2 Esdras 8;6O Lord above us,grant to your servant that we may pray before you,andgive us a seed for our heart and cultivation

of our understanding..so that fruit may be produced,by which every mortal who bears the likeness of a human being may be able 

to live,[the seed of the woman prophecy]  As Eve was known as the mother of all the living..as it pertains unto all in Adam. So,too,

Jerusalem Above is the Mother of all our spirits TOL.WISDOM FROM ABOVE,EMBRACE HER,SHE IS A TREE OF LIFE

Amen Shelia !

  The wisdom for above is only known  and felt in the heart  by the few now , but we eagerly await  for the total revealing of   the glory of God !
  I really do not believe it is possible for any one to understand the heavy weight of being  flesh and blood  and all its weaknesses and temptations  and flaws  and just how much that satans  adversarial  ability to  destroy  such good .
  Paul knew it  by the Holy Spirit witness  , the good that he wanted to do  in his heart was  staunched by the body of death still working in him   in Romans 7   the present evil still in his flesh  making him miserable . 
  but faith in Jesus CHRIST to deliver him fully was yet to be made known .   in each and everyone whom has suffered  in both doing good and evil
  Jesus come to make an open show of how it works in mankind and made a way  out  and stop the works of satan

Just as the old testament shows us  the fear of death  kept many in the dark .
  But the Father in His great mercy   sent us  His   one of a kind Son  to show us all  we shall all be gathered up into HIMSELF .
in   IMMORTAL  LIFE .

Quote from: sheila on May 14, 2019, 08:17:26 PM
:2c:  Bex..even if a man of [carnal mind of a beast] fall in a ditch [blind=3 days of darkness]on the Sabbath he is got out. :thumbsup:

many mens 3 days journey in the wilderness of this earth have been a groping about in the darkness...and lost..or they followed the

blind..and they both ended up in the ditch[been there..done that] :girlheart:

EXACTLY, the FULLNESS of the 3 days of darkness IS the full reaping of the fruit of our own lips and by our own wickedness that we are reproved by, and the Sabbath, He who IS the Sabbath will and does come at the appointed time to set the souls free to come back into union with the spirit, that IS the first resurrection. You can't resurrect unless you first die, and the earth is where the souls of the dead (sin is weighty) go to be resurrected FROM, BUT has nothing to do with any pagan ideas of hell. The idea that the initial salvation prayer gives all of our composition (the spirit is what is saved initially) a free ticket to heaven, is in error, and runs counter to pressing in for the sanctification work of the Spirit, ie. work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. We are saved spirit, soul, and body, in that order.

What I shared,  I didn't dream this up on my own, I EXPERIENCED it totally unexpectedly, with witnesses to what was happening to the spiritual things, the entire 5 hours worth of time, and afterward when we all recovered from the shock of it all, He gave understanding. I did ask Him following the passing of my mother to tell me the truth of what happens after we die, no fairy tales. About 5 months later, what I am recounting was His answer to that prayer.

We can "know" all sorts of things, know the Word from cover to cover, but it's purpose is to cause us to EXPERIENCE all of it by His Spirit, making us also part of the Word made flesh (celestial).  This is the bottom line reason I have experienced so many miraculous healings like having my eyesight restored 2 years ago to perfect at age 60, my knees which were bone on bone healed after that, my high BP also now gone and I quit the med, and you know of some of the earlier ones, cancer, crushed elbow, 4 ruptured discs, ect. It's His will that as we obey the Word we BECOME the Word, as we sup with Him, He sups with us, consuming all that is not like Him. His doctrines produce His life, the life of the Spirit, in which no sickness dwells. I share these things only to edify and encourage someone to step out in faith, not fear, of anything He chooses to do with us. Blessings..

  I  agree  :dsunny: :HeartThrob: !  the fruit of our lips is from the heart   and what is ruling  over it,  becomes obvious  .:HeartThrob:   

we do go in and out of the Spirit   :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  the goal is to walk in the Holy Spirit  completely.
  when we become aware of   what is   working in us  , we crave more of GOD /LOVE   and less and less of the  corrupt and evil things that stumble our walk with God ..

   :HeartThrob:  I LOVE you all  and thank God for you !   and His holy help .

Quote from: rosered on May 18, 2019, 11:56:24 AM


  I  agree  :dsunny: :HeartThrob: !  the fruit of our lips is from the heart   and what is ruling  over it,  becomes obvious  .:HeartThrob:   

we do go in and out of the Spirit   :dsunny: :HeartThrob:  the goal is to walk in the Holy Spirit  completely.
  when we become aware of   what is   working in us  , we crave more of GOD /LOVE   and less and less of the  corrupt and evil things that stumble our walk with God ..

   :HeartThrob:  I LOVE you all  and thank God for you !   and His holy help .

Amen. The soul is our own stony heart, just as Eve was Adam's. He took her out of him so he could see face to face what was in his own heart. He did the same thing when He took the Hebrews out into the desert wilderness (wilderness of sin) to show them what was in their own hearts. The stony heart is also the mountain that if we have faith can be cast into the sea (of humanity). As we overcome and are freed from the things that have our souls bound, those things are cast out into the "outer court" of humanity, where they have  legal right to attach to them. That is why we cannot judge them via condemnation because they are only doing in the natural realm what they see the spiritual priesthood  (those made to be one with the Head) "do" (if you have lust in your heart) in their heart. Therefore, as we become more and more of His light as the Daystar arises and overcomes all of His enemies IN OUR HEART, it gets darker and darker, "out there". Conversely, the mountain they didn't overcome becomes the very thing they will want to hide under in the day of His coming, but it will not work, just as it didn't work for Adam. Adam did not rule over his own heart/soul, did not cast the mountain, and his judgment is the same as our own soul if we do the same, ie. your ground/soul will bring forth "thorns and thistles", which she did in bearing Cain. A little leaven leveneth the whole lump. Cain is representative of the flesh that wars continually against the Spirit, and the desire to bring forth offerings of the flesh, lifeless offerings (no shedding of blood). Blessings....

  Thanks and get it  to a certain degree ,

not fully to be honest with myself and others also .   surly death is still working in me  as is Life until  the battle is over and done
   
Moses was chosen out of the world  by God to  show us mankind cannot keep the commandments ,even death come to Moses in the end

  I can see Moses & covenant being  the law was established , & prophets  coming after as also a type and shadow of the good things to come   out of the law of knowledge of good and evil   that is the open show  of the ministration of death
  Death must come first for the new Life to begin 
When Moses went to the mountain to be alone  with God and stand on holy ground , GODS  presence and wrote the ten commandments  on two tables of stone  ,a divided heart .

When he come down off that mountain  , He saw the wickedness of the people and broke  the tables of stone   or every law

  because if you break one law you broke them all ...   but he had yet to experience  it  though all the  earthly life  he was going to go though .
  you die without mercy under  this judgement  by  two or 3 witnesses  .  heaven and earth  , God and mankind ,  and than   there is Jesus   and the promise of another Day.  and cannot enter the promised land .  the disputing of the body of moses  by   Michael , to fight for the dead  as  holding them in captivity by  contending with the devil  , said the LORD rebuke you satan ! a day chosen by God   to  make known  in  Jesus Christ the light of the world  and salvation  of all  , being both the Lord of the dead and the living .   the glimpse  of hope  was   written  in the transfiguration  of Christ and the tabernacles  of 3 being all summed up into ONE  JESUS CHRIST .

  Jesus was the  One who openly showed us  on His cross  mercy  without judgment  and it was His body [the promised land that the good and perfect will come though  and no evil can enter  ever though  ] and  another day   that everything would be fulfilled  and finished up   and completed  in  , though and by   Himself the WORD OF GOD made flesh   and the ministry of reconciliation  as the love for mankind  and GOD are ONE  faith and one hope and one baptism  new Life from death   Gods way and by and though and because of Himself  and will not be any boasting  on mankind's part what so ever .

  By the Love of God  towards all mankind   though His one of a kind Son .   Whom was and is and will always be the resurrection and the Life  and Sabbath rest  ,  we rest in hope  and wait on the LORD  to do the works by labouring in   the same Love of God  by the Lord of harvests.
    this is only my own simple   understanding  that comforts  me  , if the law is written in our hearts of flesh it must be JESUS  BODY  /celestial  in nature    that makes this happen  though and by and for  Gods glory in earth as it is in heaven  that all can  be thankful for the  marvelous works of  obedience to GODS desire  as being our own desire also ,  the salvation of all .

struggling against sin  and error  and not producing it  from the good and evil tree ,but eat from the tree of Life that we might have Life in us also  , eat my body and drink my blood , life is in the blood of JESUS CHRIST and covering or protection   from the evil to come .

  we wait on the Lord and keep silent , this is something  I must learn to do much better than before  , hold your tongue and hold your peace  against evil  forces  , the cry for revenge is great during the  troubled times we are upon as was the days of old .

  the wise keep silent during the times of trouble   and where  many have failed the test by their mouth ... Amos 5 A Call to Repentance
...12 For I know your transgressions are many and your sins are innumerable. You oppress the righteous, taking bribes and depriving the poor of justice at the gates.

13 Therefore, the prudent keep silent in such times, for the days are evil.

14 Seek good, not evil, so that you may live. And the LORD, the God of Hosts, will be with you, as you have claimed....

 
the tongue is an unruly little member    that cannot be tamed James 3 , we must let the Holy Spirit  speak   only   though us  , just as Jesus showed us  , He never spoke a Word that was HIS  but the FATHERS ONLY  .. 

The dragons voice is the accuser   and tempter  and hates   all that is called by God   2 Thess 2

3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you?...

its all here to be warned about  and take heed to , now to  ask GOD to keep us from the wicked one for sure  lest  i/any  be cast off also .   as a branch to be burned in the fire of God consuming jealousy .

 :cloud9: Thanks for sharing this, Rose, something hit me to chew on.....love it when that happens..... :HeartThrob: :gimmefive: