What To Avoid in the Afterlife

[eaglesway]

I had an uncle I was close to as a bopy. when I became a Christian I began to preach the gospel to Him. he went a lil nuts at that because his father(my Grandfather) was a very legalistic  hellfire preacher in the south in the ealry to mid 1900s.

My uncle was a very bigoted man who once told me, "Well, if there is a black man in heaven I would rather go to hell". To which I replied I was about 20, 21), "Well, uncle _____, unless you change that attitude, so you shall."

At the age of 81 my uncle contracted terminal cancer. My cousin called me, in tears, worried about her father. "I am afraid daddy is going to go to hell."

I was only about 30 at the time and altho I had some insight into UR, I wasnt well versed enough to preach it yet, so I just replied, "Let's pray for him", and we did.

A week or two later Judy called me and said, "Daddy called me this morning and had me take him to church to get right with God", and she was so relieved.

Now someone might say that he was just afraid of going to hell, and they would probably be right, since that was all he knew. But sometimes fear of hell is simply an uneducated fear of the righteous judgment of God and when a person humbles themselves before God, even late in life after years of stubborness and pride..... God sees it and receives it if it is sincere.

"Some save with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".

Some are seved with fear and some get in, as my brother used to say, "Robes smokin'"... LOL

Paul said, "I will become all things to all men if by any means i might save some"....

Maybe my uncle will be least among those who are in the kingdom of heven, that is better than going in his pride and filthy rags before the Lord. Whatever time we have, the only reason we have it, is to find Him, and finding Him to serve Him. Whatever blessing we incur along the way are just beautiful grace falling like rain upon the just and the unjust alike.

[Cardinal]

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[CHB]

I had an uncle I was close to as a bopy. when I became a Christian I began to preach the gospel to Him. he went a lil nuts at that because his father(my Grandfather) was a very legalistic  hellfire preacher in the south in the ealry to mid 1900s.

My uncle was a very bigoted man who once told me, "Well, if there is a black man in heaven I would rather go to hell". To which I replied I was about 20, 21), "Well, uncle _____, unless you change that attitude, so you shall."

At the age of 81 my uncle contracted terminal cancer. My cousin called me, in tears, worried about her father. "I am afraid daddy is going to go to hell."

I was only about 30 at the time and altho I had some insight into UR, I wasnt well versed enough to preach it yet, so I just replied, "Let's pray for him", and we did.

A week or two later Judy called me and said, "Daddy called me this morning and had me take him to church to get right with God", and she was so relieved.

Now someone might say that he was just afraid of going to hell, and they would probably be right, since that was all he knew. But sometimes fear of hell is simply an uneducated fear of the righteous judgment of God and when a person humbles themselves before God, even late in life after years of stubborness and pride..... God sees it and receives it if it is sincere.

"Some save with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh".

Some are seved with fear and some get in, as my brother used to say, "Robes smokin'"... LOL

Paul said, "I will become all things to all men if by any means i might save some"....

Maybe my uncle will be least among those who are in the kingdom of heven, that is better than going in his pride and filthy rags before the Lord. Whatever time we have, the only reason we have it, is to find Him, and finding Him to serve Him. Whatever blessing we incur along the way are just beautiful grace falling like rain upon the just and the unjust alike.

This reminds me of the parable in (Matt 20:1-20 where everyone was haired for a penny and some worked longer than the others and thought they should be paid more. Some thought they should recieve more because they worked longer but isn't eternal life, or aionion life to each the same? I think this is what Jesus was telling them. So, if one confesses Jesus at death or serve him their whole life, it doesn't matter they both recieve the same reward. Just the way I see it.

CHB

[eaglesway]

Yea, I agree. I love that parable. Turns religion on its ear :o)

[jabcat]

Commentary, exegesis?

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10   since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,    and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.    They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

[HungerForTruth]

This reminds me of the parable in (Matt 20:1-20 where everyone was haired for a penny and some worked longer than the others and thought they should be paid more. Some thought they should recieve more because they worked longer but isn't eternal life, or aionion life to each the same? I think this is what Jesus was telling them. So, if one confesses Jesus at death or serve him their whole life, it doesn't matter they both recieve the same reward. Just the way I see it.

CHB

Or.....maybe even after death?

[jabcat]

Commentary, exegesis?

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10   since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,    and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.    They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

All the "threats" in this passage get my attention.  Maybe I'll look in the Bible Threatenings Explained section of the TM site and see if any of this is addressed.

One thing in particular that sticks out to me is, "away from the presence of the Lord..."    I've thought of God's punishments as being "in His presence", i.e., His hand doing it, Him directly involved. "If I make my bed in sheol you are there", etc.   However, on the surface, this indicates being cut off and could certainly be used by ET or ED as evidence of their position. 

Another thing that sticks out is, "and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.." which IMO, again shows benefit to believing the gospel now (when possible).   Thoughts?

[Dandelion]

Before I was a UR Christian, I used to interpret "Hell" as being left in our 'graves'.

In other words, I envisioned, that if we did not choose God, then all that is left is for our bodies to return to dust, with no where else to go.

I don't know about you all, but all the dancing devils in Hell, are not anymore frightening to me, personally, than to be left in one's body to slowly rot and decay, in darkness and totally alone. Where the fire is not quenched (in the form of oxygenation) and the worm does not die. Can one truly picture returning to dust, slowly? So, in my view, we could still be in Sheol, and still be without God, and suffering punishment.

What do you think of that one, jabcat?  :declare:

I always said I was 'out of the box'. Hopefully, I will be.   :LH:

D.           :2c:

[jabcat]

I'm thinkin'  LOL   :laugh2:

[sheila]

Dandelion,that's what used to freak me out,too!  :eek:

[Lazarus Short]

Conscious, and rotting in the grave?  Ewwwww...I can just hear Vincent Price chuckling in the background...

[anti_nietzsche]

Jabcat, 2 Thessalonians does not refer to afterlife punishments. They have to do with the persecution of christians ("they that trouble you") that would be avenged by "eonian destruction". An age-during removal of honor and esteem. A shaming. And because it is God's revenge, a troubling like they troubled christians. (God does not exceed eye for an eye) It does nowhere speak about death and the afterlife.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the reply.  I agree that the first part of it is addressing this life.  But look at this part;  "They will suffer the punishment of eternal [age-during, YLT] destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day "..this seems to be concerning judgment in the age to come.  Again, if so, it could be a pretty powerful verse for ET/ED, and a troublesome one that needs further correct interpretation from UR perspective.   :2c:

[eaglesway]

IIn another place I dealt with the "away from" issue. It is "apo". In over 600 usages it is only translated "away from" in 2 Thess 1:9.

Everywhere elase it is translated "from" or "of" or "out of" or  "because of"

The aspect of separation that is intrinsic to "apo" is misconstrued here because it is always separation as in something coming out of something, in other word light shining "out of"(apo) a lamp is separating from it, but is also coming out of it.


Mt 12:43When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

Matthew 10:28  not you should fear because of those who kill

The unclean spirit is coming out of the man......the fear is "because of" those who kill.

In Rev 14:10 They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

it is "because of" and "out of" the presnece of the Lord, as in coming out of His presence due to His proximity and the greatness of His glory that the punishment/testing/purging/exposing(sword of the spirit, fire in His eyes) will occur.

This mistranslation of "apo" in 2 Thess is a theological impression placed upon the scriptures by translators to re-inforce ET theology.

They will be tormented "because of" the presence of the Lord....otherwise 2 Thess1:9 and Rev 14:10 would be direct contradicitions.

As for "torment"- basanisthēsetai

and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

48Seeing them straining at the oars, for the wind was against them, at about the fourth watch of the night He came to them, walking on the sea; and He intended to pass by them.


The light is fire to darkness. Love is a fire to hatred. Communion is a fire to chaos. The torment of the wicked in the presence of God and his holy angels will last only as long as they cling to their wickedness. It will "come out" of them like the unclean spirit that had "gone out' of the possessed man.

"The spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience". "The god of this world has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

As the light o His presence penetrates and consumes the veils and self centeredness(a painful process not unlike child-birth), revealing the glory of sacrificial love in the core of their being, their "consciousness of evil" will be destroyed and they will have a "change of heart" and will bow before Him and confess His name with rejoicing.

"For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now."

:2c:

[jabcat]

makes a lot of sense, pulls some things together.  thanks John, good word.   :thumbsup:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen  :thumbsup: