The Return of Jesus - a Heads-Up

[micah7:9]

The kingdom does not come with careful observation, for it is within you. I don't think the rising of Christ within His people can be charted, diagrammed, dated or set down in any way, being a spiritual mystery.

:iagree:

What most people dont get(imo) is that the most significant sign is the Lord rising in His people.

"Until we all attain to the unity of the faith, unto a mature man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Son of God."

Doubledown  :iagree: :dsunny:

[Aerex]

Let's go on a whim and say that nothing happens between now and 2016 will that change anything?

[UniversalSceptic]

:cloud9: Here's how I see it. The natural mirrors the spiritual. It has to, it has no choice, it was set up after a spiritual pattern. We are not to be as a stargazer or soothsayer always watching for "signs" in the natural or hovering over the news for current events to match our preconceived ideas on what's going to happen when, both of which take our eyes off the Lord and instill fear, but I think it prudent to note that such things have coincided with dramatic events in the history of the world. My  :2c: Blessings...

With all due respect, Renee M is not a reliable source since like Harold Camping, she has made failed predictions about the end of the world before and sells books talking about it.

[UniversalSceptic]

Let's go on a whim and say that nothing happens between now and 2016 will that change anything?

It doesn't, but sometimes it seems people get so enamoured with the end of the world, which I get, but then they ignore scriptures. They see "moon turning to blood", so that means that since we have a "blood moon" it means the end of the world, but there is still a lot that needs to happen.

Now full disclosure: My journey began four years ago, and it has slowly and surely molded me as a person, but there is still a lot of work to do. I will admit that despite my efforts, my old life still influences me much more than God's will. However, something didn't sit right about the blood moon being the end of the world, so I researched and found the scriptures i had previously listed.

I feel we fall into error when our beliefs line up with those who preach a Hell of everlasting torment like John Hagee, or we believe someone, who has failed to predict the end of the world before like Renee Moses.

[UniversalSceptic]

Let's go on a whim and say that nothing happens between now and 2016 will that change anything?

It doesn't, but sometimes it seems people get so enamoured with the end of the world, which I get, but then they ignore scriptures. They see "moon turning to blood", so that means that since we have a "blood moon" it means the end of the world, but there is still a lot that needs to happen.

Now full disclosure: My journey began four years ago, and it has slowly and surely molded me as a person, but there is still a lot of work to do. I will admit that despite my efforts, my old life still influences me much more than God's will. However, something didn't sit right about the blood moon being the end of the world, so I researched and found the scriptures i had previously listed.

I feel we fall into error when our beliefs line up with those who preach a Hell of everlasting torment like John Hagee, or we believe someone, who has failed to predict the end of the world before like Renee Moses.

So well my motives may be carnal, I don't believe that invalidates any of my points. This has all come from what I have to come learn about universalism and how it is the "black sheep" of the Church.

[Cardinal]

:cloud9: Here's how I see it. The natural mirrors the spiritual. It has to, it has no choice, it was set up after a spiritual pattern. We are not to be as a stargazer or soothsayer always watching for "signs" in the natural or hovering over the news for current events to match our preconceived ideas on what's going to happen when, both of which take our eyes off the Lord and instill fear, but I think it prudent to note that such things have coincided with dramatic events in the history of the world. My  :2c: Blessings...

With all due respect, Renee M is not a reliable source since like Harold Camping, she has made failed predictions about the end of the world before and sells books talking about it.

:cloud9: I don't have any idea who Renee M is.... :dontknow:

[sheila]

  well..even the foolish virgins/churches..hear the announcement 'the Bridegroom cometh!.......and all the virgins arose

[eaglesway]

the parable of the 10 virgins and the wedding feast parables are not strictly, or even primarily "end of the world/age" parables to me.

The weddding feast symblolizes the union of the bride and the Lamb. The invitation, "The bridegroom comes", is a call that goes out from time to time. Those who hear that call rise up and go, their side vessels full of oil because they have been waiting upon the Lord.... for He has prepared a feasting, a celebration, a manifestation, an epiphany.

Periodically moves of restoration and renovation in the house of God occur. The Bride comes down out of heaven(the body of Chist revealed among men). The glory of God is revealed in the earth in periods of revival, great and small throughout time and all over the world.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.(Jn 4:23)

Some of the words for Christ's coming are "epiphanea"...."parousia"...."erchomai"...

ephiphanea representing the glorious supernatural manifestation of gods to the Greeks, but also meaning a wonderful inner revelation, from which we draw the word "epiphany".

erchomai, the most common, representing...

I. to come;

1. properly,

a. of persons; α. universally, to come from one place into another,

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

parousia, having the meaning of presence, to become present.

"Whenever two or more of you gather in my name there I am in the midst of you"..


I believe in the literal second advent of Jesus in history to come....an advent event, but I think believers would be better served to  listen for His coming now in their midst, "Today if you hear His voice....." because they will miss what He is doing in the earth today, among His people, while running about gathering info on events in the world that look like they could signal His historical coming, and when a move of God begins somewhere, into which He would have called them in the night as theyt lay sleeping, they will miss it....

being too busy with this or that to respond to the invite, not having enough spirit to leap through the portal before it closes...

Like the letters to the churches in the apocalypse... Jesus is writing letters now, "To the church in......your town"

What is He saying? Is He sending out an invite to a feast, a celebration, a union of the Bride and the Lamb, a Gathering?"


The "Day of the Lord" has been used since the prophets in a dualist manner speaking of both judgments and advents in their times and the ultimate advent to come. We are children of the Day walking in the Day, among whom the Day is dawning and unto whom it will come in full noon, full bloom at the first resurrection when he rolls back the veil in the heavens(imo).

But unless we have kept our ear to the ground and listened in this aspect of the Day.... "Today, if you hear His voice"....  we may not be able to hear His voice on that first Day to come(I am coming in the clouds and my reward is with me).....remaining at rest in the ground until the second resurrection when all the dead will hear His voice and come forth.


Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

[Dandelion]

I believe in the literal second advent of Jesus in history to come....an advent event, but I think believers would be better served to  listen for His coming now in their midst, "Today if you hear His voice....." because they will miss what He is doing in the earth today, among His people, while running about gathering info on events in the world that look like they could signal His historical coming, and when a move of God begins somewhere, into which He would have called them in the night as theyt lay sleeping, they will miss it....

being too busy with this or that to respond to the invite, not having enough spirit to leap through the portal before it closes...

Like the letters to the churches in the apocalypse... Jesus is writing letters now, "To the church in......your town"

What is He saying? Is He sending out an invite to a feast, a celebration, a union of the Bride and the Lamb, a Gathering?"


The "Day of the Lord" has been used since the prophets in a dualist manner speaking of both judgments and advents in their times and the ultimate advent to come. We are children of the Day walking in the Day, among whom the Day is dawning and unto whom it will come in full noon, full bloom at the first resurrection when he rolls back the veil in the heavens(imo).

But unless we have kept our ear to the ground and listened in this aspect of the Day.... "Today, if you hear His voice"....  we may not be able to hear His voice on that first Day to come(I am coming in the clouds and my reward is with me).....remaining at rest in the ground until the second resurrection when all the dead will hear His voice and come forth.

Amen! I so agree, eaglesway.

:iagree:                       :Gclap:

[Caffus]

:cloud9: I personally believe something astounding will happen between now and feast of Tabernacles 2016, the last of the blood moons. Blessings...

I hope you're right...personally, I can hardly wait for Christ to return and set things straight...I get awfully tierd of this world all the evil, hatered and misunderstandings..blocked communacation ect. It's painful, yet I know I need to rely on Him and be a thankful servant. He'll make things right in His time. This trust in Him gives me strenght to keep going.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Me too....at this point I don't know if I'll see it in my flesh, but either way, it's good. Blessings.....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Me too....at this point I don't know if I'll see it in my flesh, but either way, it's good. Blessings.....

Believe your own words/dream/visions and you know the answer with 100% certainty..

[HungerForTruth]

Believe your own words/dream/visions and you know the answer with 100% certainty..

I thought the bible said no man will know the hour?   :declare:

Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

[WhiteWings]

Believe your own words/dream/visions and you know the answer with 100% certainty..

I thought the bible said no man will know the hour?   :declare:

Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

I wasn't talking about that verse (or any verse for that matter) at all.
But in response to the verse that's so often quoted:
With an Greek/Hellenistic mindset it indeed can be read as something unknow.
But with an Jewish/Hebraic mindset as used by Jesus it's the total opposite. It pinpoints the exact day; but not year which can be found elsewhere.
The verse is about timing and marriage :declare:
Also see the idiom thread.

[rosered]

I thought the bible said no man will know the hour?   :declare:

Matthew 24:36: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Hi Hunger



   I do believe the   Holy SPIRIT    lets the spirit   know al things  concerning   Gods will

  the very spirit of  prophecy  is JESUS CHRIST testimony  , and those whom hold this treasure in their bosom   , has Christ with them and the Father and  ALL   that has already been gathered   from the beginning  and your picked up along the  way    as being a partaker    with the LIVING from among the dead   

  I consider   the dead being those whom have  no clue about God  , like I was for the most part of my natural     life  , before  Christ come to give my Light /or Life from the dead     

  No man knows the Time and hour because it is the  THE FATHER ONLY  whom is seeking  , looking in our hearts  and   showing great mercy to  us   , by allowing us to worship Him   in SPIRIT & TRUTH   in the here and now   , by the holy spirit WITNESS     , its the broken hearted and   contrite'' feeling or expressing remorse or penitence; affected by guilt  ''repenting '' ones    that desire   change and Him   who is LIFE  , God is the God of the living   , not the dead 

dead  can and does mean many thing to many people   ,  not just a rotting body   that the breath of life  has  left  , this being the the most literal sense of meaning to me ...

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Where IS the idiom thread? I was looking for it yesterday?  :dontknow:

[HungerForTruth]

ok - but the verse I quoted above says not even the Son knows.  So.....uh - I think the Son has the Spirit and He does not know?  So why would any man or woman?

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: Where IS the idiom thread? I was looking for it yesterday?  :dontknow:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/the-new-testament-was-written-in-hebrew-(not-greek)/msg112599/#msg112599

[Aerex]

Seems like that site was wrong about its predictions? Maybe we should just live our lives as usual until Jesus returns.

[sheila]

..not so fast....the bridegroom delayeth.....new crescent moon not wittnessed due to unprecedented sandstorm in Israel.  what's up?

    some say sept 30th marks new moon.   like I said...I am not claiming infallibility in this matter...ultimately it is God and Jesus

   who keep all of the divine appointments in regard to the divine arrangement of His feast's. we are to not judge thoseto whom everyday

  is the same/nor those to whom some days are seen as spiritually significant..

      I watch..........

[sheila]

 signs in the heavens and signs in the earth. I also note with interest...the washing away of people in the floodwaters at ZION NATIONAL

PARK...I see these things as 'signs in the earth"  as someone who was literally almost washed away of floodwaters off a highway in

  1982...and also spiritually almost washed away of floodwaters..these things are significant to me.

   after almost drowning in the floodwaters..and coming home...I opened the scriptures to this; Psalms 18;16  He  reached down

  from on high and took hold of me;He drew me out of deep waters.

Rev 12;15  then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river,to overtake the woman and wash her away of the flood.

Rev 20;8,9  in number they are like the sand on the seashore..they ,marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp

of God's people,the city He loves.

   I am not a 'sign seeker' nor do I pray for 'signs'  but I see them...from the Euphrates being cut off when Isis advanced..to

   to sanstorms/floods/towers falling/stockmarket crashes/bloodmoons/eclipse/earthquakes increasing in both frequency and

  magnitude. wars and rumours of wars.  The disciples had asked 'What will be the sign of Thy coming?"

....persecutions/famines etc.

[Shev]

Seems like that site was wrong about its predictions? Maybe we should just live our lives as usual until Jesus returns.

Amen Aerex! Date setters are now on a streak of approximately 0 for 7,152,352,444. You can't fault their bounce-back-ability though!  :laughing7:

[Horan]

Sheila, I take the Euphrates drying up recently, due to dams in Turkey cutting of the flow, causing water shortages downstream, as a sign, an historical marker, anchoring us right now, in our time, as we live an breath, to the pouring out of the sixth plague. Seeing this I understood that the previous five plagues have already been poured out, and that they are symbolic of spiritual plagues, not literal ones. This drying up of the great river Euphrates is a back reference to the Persian King, Cyrus, marching his army across the dry riverbed to conquer ancient Babylon, and I believe it's also a forward reference to what we can expect to be happening very soon, not armies literally marching across the riverbed, but a sudden attack on spiritual Babylon, which will herald its downfall.

I see this in the sixth and seventh plagues, and also in the seventh trumpet. The last three trumpets are three woes, which implicate Islam. In 1838 a man named Josiah Litch, using the day for a year principle of Biblical prophecy, and the hour, day, month and year of the sixth trumpet, or 391 years and two weeks, accurately predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire two years before it took place, in 1840, on August 11th, to the day. He was a laughing stock, but thousands flocked to the Adventist movement when it happened. So I think it's arguably reasonable to say that the 7th trumpet sounded on 9/11, ushering in the third woe, and I expect something to soon happen which will make that event pale by comparison, an event which consequences are reflected in the 7th plague, a great shaking up of the whole world, first though an extremely violent, dramatic, destructive strike against the beast system, followed by great economic upheaval and collapse, followed by great demand from the people of the world, those who still have something to lose, fueled by massive propaganda, for peace and security, at any cost, that mainly being the ideology or lives of anybody who deviates from the beastly norm which, in America, entails Bible-believing, fundamentalist Christians.

The world simply and quite reasonably, so to speak, won't be able to tolerate any sort of radical anything anymore, as a practical, moral necessity, for the sake of oneness, unity and the good of all, and so adherence to conformity will be the patriotic duty of all the world's people, every island (nation), and mountain (worldly power) fleeing or disappearing, being subsumed, surrendering autonomy and sovereignty to the beast system, for a short time, that great city Babylon being divided into, comprised of three parts, beast, false prophet and dragon, or Rome, America and the United Nations. And for a short time I expect people will believe they've successfully weathered a great storm, having pulled themselves up from the brink of total disaster by their own bootstraps. most quite willing to turn a blind eye to the elimination of Bible-believing fanatics, and then Jesus will come, like a thief, collecting His faithful dead and living to Himself, just before leaving the world to go stark, raving mad. But keep your chin up and your eyes on the prize, which is Jesus Christ. Things are going to look very bad for a while, but the eventual, happy ending is assured.

Looking forward to His Coming!
Mark

[GodIsLove]

Amen Shev 
no man knows the ways of God  only the spirit of a man  with the Holy Spirit of God  working  within them ...
If    He is not spiritually awakened , this spirit is as the old testament   proves   to us over and over again   he is a king of the earth and that is all  he knows ..
  the True and Living God  dealt with many "men in the old testament   and they  were used of God   to speak on His behalf  as divine instruments    "prophets to always warn   , like trumpets  blowing  before a battle     of Gods judgments in the earth   or examples  like King Neb whom was humbled and  glorified God in the end   after much tribulation

We now have the Son of God , the Lamb of God    the Son of Man  , Our Lord Jesus Christ  , whom   HIS WORD IS THE LAST WORD   and the Word made flesh  This   testimony /WITNESS   IS THE VERY SPIRIT OF PROPHECY    Dwelling within   ,  I say this because  Jesus Christ IS fulling all the law and prophets   , Because He is the   Master of the dead and the living     , the dead   are His to raise up, the Living are raised by Him already     and with Him
It is a powerful truth the WORD   judges us all    If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto ME      , this Being the Christ in you being Lifted up " anointing "    being found in Jesus Christ   
Word judge  you
47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

Quote from: Shev on August 09, 2015, 09:28:28 AM
The kingdom does not come with careful observation, for it is within you. I don't think the rising of Christ within His people can be charted, diagrammed, dated or set down in any way, being a spiritual mystery.

Now   , I just wanted to share what comforted me  personally  ,
I feel as if the Lord grated me some peace after searching  and asking  Him for the truth    about these things  and way to precious not to share with others


Noted   Jesus Says  HE WAS sent   by the Father     ,,,  no man knows the day or hour   Matt 24 36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah....

  He is sent   to lay down His life and to take it up again  , this  was to make Him Master / ruler over all things of heaven and earth and below!!!!   

  John 10   17"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18"No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."
   

After seeing this   I can see Christ return !!!!Being sent of the Father   , but why ? and How ? and what for ?   

This was   why  , and How and what for  , Jesus comes as the thief in the night  ,   this means in our dark  ignorance  of not knowing God   at all   ,   I call this the ol sleep of Adam /  all of  humanity     as  Eve was  taken out of him  ,  she represents the mother  of all the living  in the earth
 
Adam  or all humanity  was never aware of what was going on with him while God done this   mighty work within him !

For me it is the same as the Christ being formed in them      ,  how would they know ?     

Here is what proved to me it is the FATHER ALONE WHOM   picks  and choses the    time and hour       for any one of us 

It is important to note Jesus was speaking to a Samaritan  Woman   when He gave this WORD  and  the Spirit of prophecy    to us all

Woman  you worship what you know not what !!  john 22
...21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers....

  Again  notice it is the FATHER   ALONE who is doing this and sending the Christ within them to dwell with them   making a home within their hearts   , the heart is a type of throne     ,  or seated place to rule over  all the body    /  land ?     

  I just saw a  wonderful connection  in these things and hope to have explained it well enough , I struggle with  explaining what     I KNOW in my heart already and    dont share  often for this very  reason        ,  Never wanting to confuse    anyone 

  God bless   you all :HeartThrob:

Rose, these have been my thoughts as of late as well! I was thinking of making a post on here but I just found yours here. Interesting perspective...I have been trying to sort it all out.  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  God bless your heart  God is love   ,

I have noted you have received much of the Lord  in a short time  ,  for your age , I was way  slow to learn  ''quickly ''  mine come from the school of hard knocks  , usually though the experiences     did it  begin to''  quicken ''   give life as  the flesh was  beaten out of me lol ...

Spent , I know it is the Lord still dealing  with us and to never give up .
  I have read many of old posts here from many  that   I never ''got at the time '' but the seeds were sown '' [ being here many years after Kingdom talk , Bill Gorton  has completed his days of flesh]
I look at these  as see that the'' seed is Christ ''/anointing /Word of God by the Spirit of God to quicken them in His own choosing   in us  , giving Life and in that way can see   that we do eat His body and drink His blood  , those fresh  crushed grapes    and as a drink offering ]   Paul touches on  , that we    might have LIFE in us

  I do the Word /Bible as the mirror also  to look in His word  as see the Christ   working in us , and how we can relate  to   these examples /tests  also working in us
  For  me ,  it is an inward working     first and  foremost ,  and cannot be viewed   with observing       some other folks and some other time and some other way

  It is the Christ in you the Hope of glory to honor our Father on the earth  as it is in heaven  , this is how the pure in heart shall see Jesus  and when you see Jesus  you have seen the FATHER   , IT IS JESUS CHRIST LIFE AND PURE HEART   working within us  giving life and   His  dying  for you     , laying down His life and to take it back up again     we do rise and fall   on the Rock of our salvation   , the ladder of Jacob  ,  the messengers     with the  life and death  in the power of the  tongue , that only Jesus can tame    , for me     taken very  personally ...

Many of  folks  do not  , see it this personally    , but how can love be expressed in any other way but personally ?     

Love is a union  / covenant of   all working together   as ONE  ,  ONE SPIRIT ,ONE FAITH ,ONE HOPE, ONE BAPTISM     How can it work ?  , if  one does not agree with   the other   to KEEP , what is promised to do  ?   I do believe whole heartedly   , it starts within us  and is connected with one another  ,  wherever they are at in the Lord    to keep faithful     to HIM [ THE GATHERING rooted and grounded in Christ / Love of God manifested to us , this union of the FATHER &SON =Holy Spirit and all that is  gathered  with Him already     ..   I am one who believes that ,   the SON IS  Presenting to the FATHER OF GLORY   Already   , the moment   we   bow the knee to let Jesus Christ rule our hearts  , we  belong to God  and are not our own ..
And what of the rest of the world and those whom we not given    this glory in the earth ?   
  But was as simple as Jesus Christ own Words   that He never spoke on His own initiative  , but  the WORDS OF GOD HIMSELF ,

This simple  understanding  in John 3 ;16    For God so loved the world that HE GAVE  his only begotten son that whomsoever  believes in Him   will not perish  but have  everlasting Life     ...  that simple they have the faith   that the Father give them to believe   and that was all it took

  For those whom  have not bowed the knee   upon  death of their flesh and blood that could never inherit eternal life anyways     , WILL bow the knee the moment they see whom they have pierced ,,,

Every Eye shall see Him and mourn    , I believe the only difference  , is some  if not all of us will bear some shame and others glory they did not even expect   in how they pleased God ,  without faith it is impossible to please Him , but that faith , if it be hid in the earth    or out   like a Light shining in a dark place

Is the Word spoken that all   will  judged by   , Some have more and more required of them  , some have less , much less  and less required of them , But God in his Mercy has   fixed the whole thing AS HIS PERFECT WORK .AND ALL FOR HIS GLORY , none will glory except in the LORD !!!  :HeartThrob:

  John 12 47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him;

for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;

the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me

has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak....

We speak what we know  in the Light  / Children of the Day   , the DAY IS CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD  AND IS IN YOU AND GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU THAN IN THE WORLD ! a dark  world at that !   like a star that shines in a dark night of our souls we sit and wait on Him  to come and rise up in you  and  do the works of the Father  with the Son  and all that are already gathered in Him , being the Holy Spirit  that increases with the increase of God  daily as a sacrifice to   give the  world  the Light of Life in His love  to be completed by Him , for Him and because of Him     only ...   do we all live     Glory to God in the highest  as a peace  and good will towards all mankind ...

John 3 ...10J esus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11"Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12"If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?...
 
Earthly things    we speak ..  the lower realm and waters   , flood waters of death in them,lies   , falsehood   an evil , we are in earth [temporary realm ]   

Seeing it historically  of course , but that is   the natural and this is the human and carnal   reality of all mankind at first   to be carnally minded is death ,,  pretty plain speech to me  ,,,,  many never can get past this part of it ....  I know that struggle between the life and death   

  double minded    , death and life is   instability     , this is the tree of knowledge of good and evil       , and so very , very many  are in the battle of their lives  in this place ...  mind over matter  , the substance of our faith is the hope of Christ's return in you   we are overcoming    death by the Life in  Christ  , it is the Spirit of  truth   ,,,,   

I can only read Revelation  knowing it was   all Spiritual language  ,  John was in the Spirit on the Lords DAY  , When the LORDS DAY comes  to us we KNOW THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING  to us     to open up the scriptures /seals    for us
  And revelation is so confusing  for the carnal minded man  who cannot open the  seals of the book of Life  , only that lamb can , you are  His lambs and lambs blood is required , being innocent , pure in heart will SEE GOD in all His glory  in the end     

  Those that endure to the end shall be saved ,  full complete and entire without want   because God is HIS ALL , just as Jesus showed us the Father is His  :HeartThrob:
This went so long and am so sorry  , most want quick   fix answers , but God is teaching us all to wait on Him   ,  this is  the hardest part in my opinion ,,,
We get in trouble when we don't  wait on HIM ,  this is in the Word and also  my own experiences     lol .. school of hard knocks and fiery trials  and trails  all along the way ...    and never looking  back....   or ever want to go though it again ..... it wears you  out ! 


  God bless you for your  inquiring    and precious heart       hope  you can read this,  rushing though thoughts in miles per minutes , but this is always how the Lord has  come  though to me personally ...  like the rush of a mighty wind ..   :friendstu: