Especially=

[SeekerSA]

Actually J.R. you were clear. I however have become discombobulated with Troll,  and my poor mind has suffered as a result.

Will this help?

(http://www.vavolo.com/C/FD-PILL-F_2.JPG)

[Craig]

1.
Would you please answer to my question without going off-focus?
Remember, when we are discussing the following verse

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

you said the salvation mentioned above is not the same with 'all in all salvation'.
So I asked you how was it different sepcifically.
I want you to tell me "salvation in 1Ti 4:10 vursus 'all in all salvation",
this is where we are.

I have always been on 1Ti 4:10. It is when people use other versus to show that 1Ti 4:10 is not talking about "all mankind" being saved by using other Scriptures which demonstrate in some way that some are saved and some are not, that they are not talking about the same salvation. So everytime someone goes off the track and uses a Scripture to show some are not saved, in order to contradict 1Ti 4:10 which says all mankind is indeed saved, it is they who have misunderstood. Because either Paul was not annointed and he is a liar, or Jesus was not annointed and He is a liar, or the truth is, both are annointed and speak the truth.

Quote-------------------------------
Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation.
However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction
---------------------------------------

This statement directly contradicts to what Jesus is saying.
Jesus is the narrow gate itself, i.e. salvation.
No salvation remains after this gate, Jesus.
City of salvation for all??? No chance.
In that case Jesus died in vain and for nothing.

Anyway please answer the above question,
truth will be revealed bit by bit.

It does not contradict anything Jesus was saying. Especially when you say 'Not a Chance'. You have no idea that some those who believe will not taste death, but those who die and yet believe will see life. Jesus is not just the LIFE, He is also the RESURRECTION, but I guess you don't believe that.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he is dead; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Hasty Generalizations are fallacies. There is no truth in error, therefore if you see any contradiction in Scripture, it is not because there is a contradiction, only that the person who sees it doesn't have all the gaps filled yet. The knowledge of the truth still hidden from their eyes.

What happens to those who go through the gate of destruction? They perish. They are dead. How can these men who are dead, be saved? They are RAISED from the dead. What happens to those who go through the gate of life? They live, and never die in the first place.

Luke 18:26-28Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

It is such foolishness to say Jesus died for nothing because you then demonstrate you have no idea why He died in the first place! That shows exactly the fallacy which you believe. Why did Jesus die? THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL MANKIND.

Romans 5:10-11
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Ephesians 2:14-17
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.

Colossians 1:19-23
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior but now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.

2 Corinthians 5:14-16, 18-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

He did not die for nothing, He died so that all mankind will be reconciled in Him. Jesus died and saved all mankind through the Resurrection. So you have NO reason whatsoever to even say, "If this is so, then Jesus died for nothing." He died to RECONCILE all mankind to God, no condition but His own.

So now, if any are destroyed, should any perish, they are not considered strangers but son's of God and He will raise them up from the dead. Do you think the HOPE the apostles had was in the cross? No, it HAS ALWAYS BEEN, in the resurrection of the dead. You demonstrate you do not know the Scriptures as much as you say you do.

Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:11
It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

Those who refuse to see this, purposely ignore it.

1 Corinthians 15:12-15
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

[JillieRose]

Have a cookie, FineLinen. It'll make you feel better!

Thank you, that's very helpful. The general commentaries seem to think that 'all in Christ shall be made alive' means everyone gets raised, but Christians are raised first, and the wicked are raised to judgement. I'm going to go look at it further, but this has been a really good start.

By the way, Peacetroll, thank you. I'm so much clearer now having settled in my mind why I disagree with you. Have a cookie also.

[pneuma]

Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Hi PT I don't think you have a proper understanding of that scripture.
Its talking about entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the way the Lord explained it to me.

Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which enter into the kingdom of heaven that way.

Here is what it means to be "Fitted" to destruction

There is a doctern that the church has been teaching for so long now that mankind excepts it without actually taking it to God and check it out in His word to see if it is true.
This doctern is based on fear and is a lie more damaging then the one about the rapture.
This doctern is ETERNAL TORMENT (E.T.) it is a lie and has not even entered into the mind of God.
The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1Tim4:10
Did you get that? Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
The bible tell us Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Brothers and sisters this corn of wheat was FITTED to destruction. which brings me to the topic at hand.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
I see two different conclusions to this verse.
1) ALL MEN-UNIVERSAL
2) ONE MAN-PERSONAL
And I believe the scriptures speak of both and that both are assured to come to pass.

1) ALL MEN

Ro.9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art
thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him
that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to
shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that
he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom
he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Now why would God make vessels unto dishonour ? So that He could
shew His wrath and make His power known.(the power of the
cross)

Why did He make vessels unto honour ? So He could make known
the riches of His glory.

The vessels unto honour everyone I think will agree are those that
overcome in this life,and the vessels of dishonour are those
that don't.

Okay then lets look how God is going to shew forth the power of
the cross to the vessels of dishonour. What if God, willing to shew
his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You can see that these vessels are fitted to distruction,but what
does it mean to be fitted to distruction? Let look at it:The word fitted
comes from the Greek word 2675 katartizo { kat-ar-tid'-zo}

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; TDNT - 1:475,80; v

AV - perfect 2, make perfect 2, mend 2, be perfect 2, fit 1, frame
1, prepare 1, restore 1, perfectly joined together 1; 13

GK - 2936 { katartivzw }

1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he
ought to be
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

so you can see they are to be made complete as they ought to be
made,and how is that? in the image of God.

So then both the vessels of honour and dishonour are made
complete in Christ. All men will be saved.

2) ONE MAN

Verse 21 says Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the SAME LUMP to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This SAME LUMP is speaking of ONE MAN (one body). It is speaking of our old man (flesh) and the spiritual man. One vessel unto honour ( spiritual man) ,one vessel unto dishonour (old man) of the SAME LUMP. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Verse 17 says For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Am I ever glad that God in His wisdom used Pharaoh for this statement. Pharaoh is an example of our old man (flesh). Pharaoh kept Gods children in bitter bondage and would not let them go , until the deliverer Moses ( type of Christ) came and delivered Gods people out of bitter bondage, and slew Pharaoh and the Egyptians in the sea(type of baptisem). In like manner our old man (flesh) keeps us in bitter bondage until we are delivered by Jesus Christ and our old man(flesh) and all works of the old man (flesh) are destroyed by baptisem in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Our old man(flesh) is fitted to destruction so the new man can come forth , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

This is exactly what the second death accomplishes in our life.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They shall not be hurt does not by any means mean that they don't go though the 2nd death , it means that they do go though but like the 3 Hebrew children they will not be hurt in the fire. They have in fact become a part of the fire.


More on fitted. (katartizo )

Katartizo ( fitted ) Is always used for making things as they should be made.

We read in Mt.4:41 & Mk.1:19 of James and John mending (katartizo ) thier nets.

We read in Co.1:10 how we are to be perfectly joined together (katartizo) in mind and judgment with Christ.

In Gal.6:1 we read how we are to restore(katartizo) one who are taken in a fault.

In Heb.13:20-21 we read how our great shepherd through the blood of the everlasting covenant, makes us perfect (katartizo) in every good work to do Hid will.

And in

1 Peter 5:10 we read

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect(katartizo) stablish, strengthen, settle you.

That after we have SUFFERED a while makes us perfect, establishs us, strengthens us,and settles us.

Brother we are all fitted to destruction , wherein our old man is crucified forevermore no longer to rise again because a NEW MAN is standing where an old man once stood.

God will mend and restore us in His fire unto a perfect man.

[70sevens]

I have always been on 1Ti 4:10. It is when people use other versus to show that 1Ti 4:10 is not talking about "all mankind" being saved by using other Scriptures which demonstrate in some way that some are saved and some are not, that they are not talking about the same salvation. So everytime someone goes off the track and uses a Scripture to show some are not saved, in order to contradict 1Ti 4:10 which says all mankind is indeed saved, it is they who have misunderstood. Because either Paul was not annointed and he is a liar, or Jesus was not annointed and He is a liar, or the truth is, both are annointed and speak the truth.

You said that 'end result salvation' was different from 'some salvation.'
I said the both were same.
But you said that was hasty generalization. Not all salvation were same.
I said then you to explain specifically why the said salvations were different.
But you keep on saying that they are different,
one is 'end result', the other is 'some, some not.'

Is there any salvation quality difference? Or what.
I hope you can hit the mark this time.
At least, I want to agree to disagree.

You know why?
You do not have the specific concept of 'end result salvation',
which does not even exist in the manner you think.

Anyhow, I will be waiting for you reply.
I will not touch on your lengthy bible quotes in order not
to diversify our topics at one time.

[FineLinen]

Have a cookie, FineLinen. It'll make you feel better!

We will now ask Troll to come forward and lead us in singing.....

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!

HERE

"The whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God."