Tentmaker Forum

I believe this is very important to understand.

Precept upon precept.

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

spe·cial·ly [ spésh'lee ]

adverb 

Definition:
 
expressly: for a special or particular purpose, person, or occasion
It was intended specially for preschoolers.
I had it specially made.

The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek: málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all." Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered "that is," "in other words," or similar expressions. If we use that translation in 1 Timothy 4:10, the interpretational problem disappears: "Because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, that is, of those that believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles. There is no need to introduce the idea of universalism or of a legal salvation that has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.
      On the cross God made provision for the salvation of every human being, but only those who believe will be saved.

Laymens Terms.

1 Timothy 4:10 the word 'specially' in the the english translations and modern translations is a qualifying term. 

'specially' = málista = 'that is' = a qualifier exlaining the exact meaning of who will be saved.  And this lines up perfectly then with Christ' words...

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

And Pauls' difficult to be understood epistles now makes perfect sense!

Good day!

Show us your references for these 'recent' studies which translates MALISTA as 'in otherwords'. I studied the greek word MALISTA for the last five years, and found no such definition that you give. Quite ironic how it is 'recent' discoveries, which in my experience, is called wordsmithing, or as some call it 'truthiness'.

From a different post:

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Since you want to be specific, I do not know what translation reFORMer uses but the word word 'specially' is actually translated 'especially', translated from the greek word 'Malista' which does not mean 'specially' as PeaceTroll defines it.

Malista = Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc.

So here is the example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially my Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests?
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons?

If we are going to use words and grammar, we need to understand the language we are using.

1 Timothy 4:9-11
This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.

Sets it quite clear, that all men, refers to the mortal perishable creature that we are, whether believer or unbeliever, and He is savior of all men especially of the believer.

Here is a good excert on it (he explains it better then I):

Comments on 1 Timothy 4:10
Ángel Manuel Rodríguez

      I recently heard a preacher quoting 1 Tim 4:10 to argue that on the cross Christ saved the human race but that those who will actually be saved are those who do not reject that salvation. Is that what the text is saying? I have some friends who are interested in this subject.

      I suppose you have in mind the second part of 1 Tim 4:10: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." The interpretation of this verse has been problematic and consequently different explanations have been given to the words of the apostle.

If you carefully read any English translation of this passage you will probably realize that it does not seem to make sense. How can everybody be saved and at the same time have a group that is specially saved? What does "specially" saved mean? Does it mean that the others did not deserve to be saved and yet they are also going to be saved? When it comes to salvation one is saved or not saved. There is no middle ground; no one is going to be specially saved versus others who are only saved.

shooting down further...

The key term in the text is the word "specially" (Greek málista). A proper understanding of it will solve the problems. The word can be translated "specially, mostly, above all" (e.g., Acts 20:38; Phil 4:22). Recent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT (e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10). If we use that translation in 1 Tim 4:10 the interpretational problems disappear: "Because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, that is, of those who believe." The phrase "all men" would then mean "all sorts of people," possibly Jews and Gentiles, who accept Christ. There is no need to introduce in the text the idea of universalism or of a legal universal salvation which has no immediate effect on the final destiny of the individual.

From Biblical Research.org:
http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Justification1Tm4,10.htm (http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Justification1Tm4,10.htm)

It is ostensible to me that the 'especially' does not make sense structured the way it is in english prose.  Mr. Rodriquez has a very strong arguement that has the strength of common sense backing it in regards to phonetic rules in the english language.


Also here is another source:

μαλιστα  adverb
malista  mal'-is-tah:  (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

Scripturetext.com:
http://lexicon.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm (http://lexicon.scripturetext.com/1_timothy/4-10.htm)

Also, since you study Greek, I'm suprised you did'n mention this little factoid...


The same word  in Greek used for especially can be used for specifically, depending on the context!.

http://www.translatum.gr/ (http://www.translatum.gr/) (try it!)

The 1 Timothy 4:10 verse makes more sense when we understand it as 'specifically' as opposed to 'especially' for salvation is salvation is salvation regarding eternal life in the kingdom of God (especially makes no sense, but specifically certainly does in my opinion).

Hope a few of you see where I'm coming from.

Peace in Christ.

P.S. Another source worth reading is here (gotta buy the book of course):
http://www.amazon.com/collection-Mu%C3%8C%C2%88nchener-Beitra%C3%8C%C2%88ge-Papyrusforschung-Rechtsgeschichte/dp/B0008CG9BY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200427696&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.com/collection-Mu%C3%8C%C2%88nchener-Beitra%C3%8C%C2%88ge-Papyrusforschung-Rechtsgeschichte/dp/B0008CG9BY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200427696&sr=8-1)

T.C. Skeat was the theologian who wrote many books on Greek etc.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_C_Skeat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_C_Skeat)

Here is a excerpt from T.C. Skeat regarding the use of the 'malista' in the Timoth 4:10 verse:
http://books.google.com/books?id=td_OLXo4RvkC&pg=PR22&lpg=PR22&dq=tc+skeat+on+1+timothy+%224+10%22&source=web&ots=eWJWxxqyvr&sig=c9yDN_fsClpPdtYNXfz2ptDbDoA (http://books.google.com/books?id=td_OLXo4RvkC&pg=PR22&lpg=PR22&dq=tc+skeat+on+1+timothy+%224+10%22&source=web&ots=eWJWxxqyvr&sig=c9yDN_fsClpPdtYNXfz2ptDbDoA)

Not much there that proves your original point. Not much I need to point out.

Whether it is,"in particular, specifically, cheif of all, etc." it still does not translate, "in otherwords," or "that is,".

As I said, MALISTA means, "Especially, with special notice to, in particular, etc." That also includes 'specifically'

So going back to my example:

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, especially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specifically Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, specially Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

I walked into a room and said hello to all the guests, above all Mr. and Mrs. Lyons who travelled all the way from Austria to be with me tonight.

Now does this mean I did not say hello to all the guests? No.
Now does this mean I only said hello to Mr. and Mrs. Lyons? No.

You still have not demonstrated or shown any proof that MALISTA means, "in otherwords," or "that is."

Next

The definition must be universal and not specific to only one context.

Here is other places "MALISTA" is used.

Acts 20:38
What grieved them most [MASLISTA] was his statement that they would never see his face again. Then they accompanied him to the ship.

Were they grieved only by his statement, or most of all by his statement? There is no place where it would mean, 'in otherwords' or 'that is'.

Acts 25:26
But I have nothing definite to write to His Majesty about him. Therefore I have brought him before all of you, and especially [MALISTA] before you, King Agrippa, so that as a result of this investigation I may have something to write.

Who is 'all of you'? The audience room with the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city (v23). Did he bring them only to King Agrippa, or before the high ranking officers and the leading men of the city with special note that King Agrippa was also there?

There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement.

Galatians 6:10   
Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially [MALISTA] to those who belong to the family of believers.

Once again, are we commanded only to do good to the family of believers? No. We are to do good to all people, in particular, with special note, most of all, especially, those who belong to the family of believers. There is once again no indicator of 'in otherwords', or 'that is' could ever be used in this statement, and if it is, it is a gospel not as Paul ever preached.

Philippians 4:22
All the saints send you greetings, especially [MALISTA] those who belong to Caesar's household.

Did all the saints send greetings only to Caesar's household? Or were greetings sent to all of the Philippians, with special note to those who belong to Caesar's household? If Paul was to use 'in otherwords' or 'that is', he is wasting his words. He then should have said, "All the saints send greetings to those who belong to Caear's household ." But he did not, because the greetings was to all the Philippians to whom the letter was addressed, but he wanted to make special note of greeting the members of Caesar's household.

I could go on and on, on how much you missed the mark on this one PT. There is 15 more verses that use MALISTA and none can be translated 'in otherwords' or 'that is' or 'only'. etc.

Lastly,

Where Scripture states, "That is" or "In otherwords" it states it 'HINA', or 'IDOU', not "MASLISTA".

Your argument is weak to support your position. I can use your own referenced Greek Scholars to prove it so. You just don't know what especially, or specifically, means. Grammar must ALSO be taken into consideration, not just the word itself.

I guess.
TC Skeat was a Greek Cotext scholar for his whole life, but of course you know more then he does.

You obviously defend your viewpoint regardless of the information presented.

It takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

But, there is no point to continue on this point.  Believe as you are directed to.

Peace and life IN Christ.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 16, 2008, 10:57:23 PM
I guess.
TC Skeat was a Greek Cotext scholar for his whole life, but of course you know more then he does.

You obviously defend your viewpoint regardless of the information presented.

Actually that is your problem, not mine. You have a problem with actually addressing any rebuttle given towards you because you are actually unprepared and in this case, prove you did not do your research before presenting your argument. I already pointed out that your scholar TC Skeat, supports what I have said because you still have not yet proven, even by his research, that MALISTA means anything more than, "(adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially." There is also a problem of circular reasoning, the scholar rejects a universalistic approach to Scripture because he 'knows' it is doctrinally wrong, so therefore the definition must be wrong.

As I said PT, you have yet to support your claim it means, "In otherwords," or "that is,". 

QuoteIt takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

I proved otherwise by the other uses of Malista in Scripture.

quote peacetroll

QuoteIt takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

I see your up to your old tricks again PT :laughing7:, just kidding. Weren't the people whom translated malista as especially, specially, also scholars? Or were they uneducated men?

Does TC Skeat, override every scholar of every translation as far as context goes?
I see also that the use of the word "specifically" was explained nicely by SOtW, as shown in examples, and also the many examples of the use of the word malista in other scripture verses.

quote peactroll

QuoteBut, there is no point to continue on this point.  Believe as you are directed to.

This statement makes it seem like you think you have made a reasonable argument for a reasonable idea, and that we just don't understand.
The truth here is, if I may say, that the point that you were attempting to make on this thread, has beyond any reasonable doubt whatsoever been found guilty of being wrong, and is sentenced to banishment to lala land. IMO. :happy3:  (but believe as you are directed to)

Quote from: PeaceTrollRecent studies made on the usage of this term in Greek papyrus letters have shown that this particle was also used to define in a more precise way what preceded it and could be rendered into English as "that is, in other words" or by similar expressions. This usage is found in several passages in the NT (e.g., 2 Tim 4:13; Titus 1:10).

Interesting.  Let's see:

2Ti 4:13  The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring [with thee], and the books, [but] especially the parchments.

"..bring [with thee], and the books, that is, the parchments"??

Personally, I think this translation makes much more sense than one which translates malista as "that is/ in other words".

Obviously there is diverging opinions on the specific meaning of Pauls' writtings (of course there not hard to be understood as Peter indicated!):

1 Timothy 4:10 (utilizing specifically or in particular for the english translation of 'especially' for milista'...

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specifically those that believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)


10That is why we work hard and put up with troubles. We trust in the living God who came to save all people. He makes a way for those who believe in him.


1 Timothy 4:10 (New Life Version)
New Life Version (NLV)

10 Because of this, we work hard and do our best because our hope is in the living God, the One Who would save all men. He saves those who believe in Him.

1 Timothy 4:10 (New International Reader's Version)
New International Reader's Version (NIRV)
 
10 We work hard for it. Here is the saying. We have put our hope in the living God. He is the Savior of all people. Most of all he is the Savior of those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 (Wycliffe New Testament)
Wycliffe New Testament (WYC)
2001 by Terrence P. Noble,

10 And in this thing we travail, and be cursed, for we hope in living God, that is Saviour of all men, most(ly) of faithful men.

and the famous version...

1 Timothy 4:10 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

As Bill Clinton once said, ""It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. "

carry on...

Exactly Mississippi!

Here is  a Greek version of 1 Timothy 4:10:

ΠΡΟΣ ΤΙΜΟΘΕΟΝ Α' 4:10 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
εις τουτο γαρ και κοπιωμεν και ονειδιζομεθα οτι ηλπικαμεν επι θεω ζωντι ος εστιν σωτηρ παντων ανθρωπων μαλιστα πιστων

μαλιστα  = Malista (in greek/koine).

What can μαλιστα  mean?


malista pronounced: mal'-is-tah ------μαλιστα

neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:--chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.


We see 'particularly' comes first in the Greek Strongs, which indicates a strong arguement for utilizing 'particularly' instead of 'especially'.  On the least, 'particularly' is JUST as plausable to use in 1 Timothy 4:10  as 'especially' and it makes more sense with the preachings of James, Peter and Christ himself.

Check it out yourselves!
http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK31.htm (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/FRMSTRGRK31.htm)

Regardless of word definition and use, we should also consider the use of 'all men'...is Paul being literal when he say's 'all men' in Timothy 4:10??  Well lets compare it with some other scriptuers from Paul.....

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Did Paul actually think he pleased every man on earth in everything?
I think not.

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Are we most miserable of every man?  EVERY MAN that ever lived that had not heard of Christ?  I think not.

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

Did Paul actually mean every man on earth had no faith in Christ?  I think not.  He was generalizing.  Yet we wish to pick and choose what suites our needs concerning Pauls' epistles, unless we pursue truth in earnest we shall fall into the 'blinders' fallacy forever.

well, just to clarify...i was being a little sarcastic :laughing7:...I am not  a proponent of ET.

PeaceTroll,

Perhaps you missed my post. Are you still suggesting that 2 Tim 4:13 uses malista in the sense of "that is" or "in other words"? If so, please make sense out of translating the verse in this way, for I cannot make sense of it myself.  Also, I'd like to see some scholarly evidence that malista can indeed be used in this way.  Mr. Rodriguez's say-so. Thanks.

Here are some other translations as well

(ASV)  For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe.

(BBE)  And this is the purpose of all our work and our fighting, because our hope is in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and specially of those who have faith.

(CEV)  We have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, but especially of those who have faith. That's why we work and struggle so hard.

(LITV)  for to this we also labor and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers.

(WNT)  and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers.

(YLT)  for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men--especially of those believing.

(KJV+)  For1063 therefore1519, 5124 we both2532 labor2872 and2532 suffer reproach,3679 because3754 we trust1679 in1909 the living2198 God,2316 who3739 is2076 the Savior4990 of all3956 men,444 especially3122 of those that believe.4103

again, about this statement....it makes pefect since to me...
Quote peacetroll

QuoteIt takes no Rhodes scholar to see 'especially' in the context used, makes little to no sense.

Well it is said, that there are going to be those who find teachers to teach what they want to hear. As you notice, none here but PT has gone out of his way to find what he 'thought' (though I already proved otherwise) a scholar (even though majority of scholars disagree, along with myself) said to 'prove' his position. From what I have seen so far concerning malista, and the 'supposed' rebuttle (which never actually addressed the original assumption [yes, it is an assumption since PT could not prove it]) that it means 'In otherwords,' or 'That is,' instead of (what majority of langistic experts in Greek) is 'Especially,' or 'specially'.

Though PT says there is diverging opinions, we find it is actually only himself, who has a difference of opinion. In my mind, and experience, that is enough to discount his entire argument as fanciful imaginations of someone who rather instead of having the facts establish his belief, has a belief and is looking for facts to support it.

MALISTA is not a doctrinal (theology) issue, it is a linguistic (semantic) issue. This is not like arguing the doctrine of salvation, this is like arguing the meaning of the word 'yes' and say it is 'no'. It is ridicoulous, and the reason why I warn heavily, about those who quarrel over 'words' to defend their doctrine.

No comment on the other scriptures where Paul uses 'all men'?

Do you take all Pauls other statements that include 'all men' so  literal as  you take 1 Timothy 4:10??

Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Did they sell their possessions and give them to every homo-sapien on earth?

Acts 21:28
Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Did Paul teach EVERY homo-sapien on earth?? 

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Did Paul LITERALLY please every HOMO-SAPIEN on earth?  I think not.  You gotta stop and take a look at the big picture instead of taking what fits your theories and throwing out what does not.  Precept on precept, as I've been trying to tell you all.

Quoteabout those who quarrel over 'words' to defend their doctrine.

Amen.  I didn't want to drop to this sites level, but you focus on words, so I thought that while I was in rome, I'd do as the romans (SEe Aeon and the discussions on 'words' for proof).

I still have not given up hope on you Sotw.  Holding tenaciously onto our undefendable points is  fallacy we all are guilty of, I'm simply willing to admit it, where you are not.

I love the personal bashing you people do constantly world without end.  You should drop the personal attacks if you want to be taken serious by any thinking HOMO-Sapien.

PT, it is hard for you to stick to a subject huh?

Is my question to hard for you to answer clearly and straight?

Obviously you dodge the point.  Did Paul mean "all men' in the other scriptures I gave or not.

Answer me if you can.

This is about the word Malista, it has no bearing on 'all men'. We already discussed what all men is in another topic. However, saying this, if Paul meant, "all men = only believers" he would have said, "Jesus is savior of all men who believe." Though that is not what he said. He said, "Jesus is savior of all men, MALISTA those who believe." The usagage of Malista has remained the same and is consistant through all it's usages, to mean "a special note concerning but not only."

It is FAULTY reason, to use circular reasoning. You must establish each matter seperately and independantly of each other or you are just showing lack of knowledge and understanding concerning even the simplest things.

Everything in context.

If Paul never utilized 'all men' in the literal sense in other phrases, why do you hold him to the literal sense in 1 timothy 4:10?

Perhaps it fits your desire?

I understand your viewpoint, and I suppose we can settle on disagreeing on this one.

Peace.

P.S. 'especially' does make sense for the context but 'Malista' can be utilized in variation as we both understand I'm sure.

For example If I say 'save everyone, especially the women and children', then it makes sense.  So I'll regress from debating on the single word (as we should focus on more progressive discussions that sharpen and not debates that spiral to total disagreement).

Great, glad you understand the view point.

Now we can focus on your second part of that response.

"Save everyone, especially the women and children."

Does that mean we are only to save the women and children? No.
Does this mean that not everyone will be saved? Undetermined.

Yet, the onus is not on mankind to save them, but Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh. Is God not all powerful? If He wills something, does it not come to pass?

Matthew 19:25-26
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Peace troll, did you miss my post to you?  Forget about SOTW for a while and chat with me a little.

Matthew, Chapter 20
24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
___________________________________________________

I wonder if Thomas was of those 'especially' saved, seeing that he said, I WILL NOT BELIEVE UNLESS...?  Just something that I've been thinking about while reading this thread.

Anne

Quote from: Apocatastasis on January 19, 2008, 12:58:54 AM
Peace troll, did you miss my post to you?  Forget about SOTW for a while and chat with me a little.

OK you're it - ding ding

:laughing7:

 Why would one say all men,meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe?
If you are saving everyone how would you especially save some of them?

It makes perfect sence if the real inference of the word used by Paul is specifically,or that is.God shall have all men to be saved,that is,those that believe,or God will have all men to be saved,specifically,those that believe.

Why were all those people willing to be martyered for Jesus sake, and spread out throughout the world preaching the gospel if all men, meaning every human being who ever lived was going to be saved?Why die for your faith if it doesn't matter if you believe or not? :dontknow:Why worry about it, or suffer for it if it will make no difference in the end?

If you are the Lord's,you are in the world, in the darkness, but not of the darkness.

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
 
Jesus makes a difference in men.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Who is the phrase "the world" used as a symbol for?

The darkness,the shadow of death,the devil.

John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.  When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

How then can you say all men litterally shall be saved?That belief in the Son of God,Man which is in heaven, has no meaning in the end?

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 19, 2008, 08:35:01 PM
Why would one say all men,meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe?

The especially were those given eyes to see, ears to hear; to come out of "self righteousness/sacrifice" to "mercy". 
Save by grace.  Used for a purpose, to demonstrate that God's love is not dependent upon "man's efforts". 

Through this especially salvation, those who were stuck in "self righteousness", saw there house come down quickly and completely in complete destruction of self works.  The old was destroyed, and in with the new.  This is their salvation.  Standing completely naked before LOVE.


Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

Rom 9:18  So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

Rom 11:7  What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

Rom 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16  And if the firstfruit is holy (the especially saved), so is the lump (those hardened): and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

Rom 11:26  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28  As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,

Rom 11:32  For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
 


In my opinion, this was all played out (past tense), and through this we can see that as Seeker says, God is LOVE, always has been and always will be. 

Approaching scriptures from the view of LOVE, changes everything. 

As my friend Amie has as her favorite quote,

"When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"




Rom 11:28  As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved  for the fathers' sake.

Hello Peacetroll!

Ok...two different threads of argument here.

One is the 'when does all mean all, and when does it mean all kinds?' question, and the other is the meaning of malista.

I'm going to try to apply the common sense test to the first problem.

"The Saviour of all men, [especially] those who believe"
"The Saviour of all kinds of men, [especially] those who believe"

Hmm. I'm not a UR person (not yet, anyway) by any means, but...I think that either way, as regards English linguistics, it's a bit stuck with all. Because all kinds/especially doesn't change the meaning compared to all/especially.

However, if proposition 2 is true and malista does not mean especially, then you can make a case for all kinds of men, specifically those who believe.

Malista: Strong's number 3122
"neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very)"
12 uses in the American Standard version.
Definition:  especially, chiefly, most of all, above all.

"3122. malista mal'-is-tah  neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:--chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.
3123. mallon mal'-lon neuter of the comparative of the same as 3122; (adverbially) more (in a greater degree)) or rather:--+ better, X far, (the) more (and more), (so) much (the more), rather."

Where did you find the article/explanation/whatever which said that it sometimes meant 'that is' or 'specifically'? Your translation doodah (the link in your second post) brings up a word which is...well, it's not malista, when I put in 'specifically'. Also, I cannot find any instance of 'specifically' being a translation for any word in the New Testament, having tried six different translations. Not just in the verse in question, I mean anywhere.

Could you help me out, please?

 You MUST have common sense.What is the reason for faith if it means nothing in the end of things?Is John a liar?

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

explain this

Joh 12:47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 20, 2008, 04:00:10 AM
You MUST have common sense.What is the reason for faith if it means nothing in the end of things?Is John a liar?

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You should have common sense. We are not stupid people as you have us out to be. So stop thinking yourself all knowing, and begin to discuss rationally and logically, keeping out all fallacy. Nobody here called John a liar, and it seems the only ones here with common sense are the ones actually taking to task the words meanings and their context, all but you it seems.

 If you disregard the words of Jesus,and John and adhere only to what you think Paul said, how can you be right?
You should have posted what Jesus said with it's accompanying scriptures,which qualify that verse.Talk about cherry picking.

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.  

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

We are reconciled to God through the obedience of Jesus Christ to the death for our sakes who are blessed to hear and believe.It is our God given faith in Him that saves us.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

If you reject and despise Jesus, you reject and despise God.

Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Will God forcefully save those from the second death,or is that event the way all things that offend are permanetly removed?

This is a test.  Just seeing if my post appears.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 20, 2008, 07:12:18 PM.....

This has nothing to do with Malista... once again. Nobody here but you are cherry picking Scriptures. As I have said before, not every place in Scripture where it talks about Eternal Life, Salvation, etc. is it talking about the same salvation. There is salvation which comes in believing, they walk by the light and do not take the road to destruction, and there is a salvation that comes through Jesus Christ, which is not dependant upon our belief, but the work of the cross and the resurrection of the dead.

You are using circular reasoning and now hasty generalizations to try to prove (which you still have not demonstrated) that MALISTA means something it so far has been established by us and many scholars, does not.

I was answering seeker's question.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 20, 2008, 08:31:02 PM
I was answering seeker's question.

Okay, changed my post.

The especially were chosen to demonstrate that "man's works" serve no purpose in relationship with the Father.  

Those not chosen, were to go through the fire of destruction.  Destruction of the old, the old covenant way of thinking.  

Mat 3:10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

This destruction is their salvation.  God's way of bringing in mercy upon all.  


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (imo, the chosen/elect, the especially), and with fire (those stuck in self righteousness/old covenant mode of life):


1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Rom 11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (imo, as through fire/destruction)

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.  Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.  


Jesus came to disqualify those stuck in old covenant mode of thinking.  Thus his focus was on destruction of works in fire for those stuck in that mode.  And blessings to the meek (matthew 5-7)

As the mystery unfolds, through an elect; the "self righteous" have their works burned and saved through destruction.  


LOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.  

Quote from: LarenLOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.

I disagree. LOVE is the ONLY paradigm to interpret scripture.  :bigGrin:

Blessings

Quote from: SeekerSA on January 20, 2008, 10:52:11 PM

Quote from: LarenLOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.

I disagree. LOVE is the ONLY paradigm to interpret scripture.  :bigGrin:

Blessings

:bgdance: :bgdance: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :boydance: :Egyptdance2:

1 Tim. 4:10

QuoteWe accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe. -Wm. Barclay N.T.-

"And above all"= especially= malista=

Chiefly.

Most of all/ above all.

Especially.

To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.

Encarta World Dictionary

1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.

2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.

3. Chiefly

4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.

American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language

To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis --particulary.

Infoplease Dictionary

Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly.

Miriam Webster

For a particular purpose.

To an extent or degree deserving special emphasis.

In an especial manner; chiefly; particularily; in an uncommon degree.

Cambridge Dictionary Of American English

Used to emphasize the importance of one thing among others of its type or to the point of one thing among others-- particularly

Please note:

Malista does not mean monon or monos!

Monon= exclusively/ only

Malista= especially/ chiefly/ most of all/ above all.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 19, 2008, 08:35:01 PM
Why would one say all men, meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe? If you are saving everyone how would you especially save some of them?

This is your mission, Troll, should you be willing to accept it.....Define from the English Dictionaries what especially means. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And, does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?



Plan b minus=


He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and for our sins ONLY, and not for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.

Saved man is saved,
Unsaved man is unsaved.
Unsaved man is not saved.
I guess this is common sense.

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"The living God is the Savior of all men."
Yes, how true!
But this statement itself will not save us, nor anybody.
Only when he is saved, he is saved.
Then he become a special person that believe, as Paul said.

So don't have to shout with joy over the statement,
saying "loving, merciful God and triumphant Jesus."
That is pie-in-the-sky ...
until the reader himself is saved.

Stream is this :
Paul and Timothy labor and suffer reproach
to make the statement of "the living God is the Savior of all men"
real to men that they meet.

Thank you Fine Linen, excellent post, and helpful.

Yes, thank you.  Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

Quote from: Reverend G on January 21, 2008, 09:03:24 AM
Yes, thank you.  Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

You got it.

 

QuoteWill God forcefully save those from the second death,or is that event the way all things that offend are permanently removed?

*shrugs* Idunno. Maybe He saves them through the second death. I don't claim to know what God does at any one time, I'm just glad He does it. I think the point people are making is that you can't just take one Scripture and prove anything you like from it.

For example, if you read Romans you can find half a dozen overtly UR scriptures, and then maybe a half a dozen ET/annihilation/wrath Scriptures. If you take them all together you can get a better picture: pick and choose verses and you're in trouble. And you get confused. Well, I do anyway.

For example: 1 Cor 15:whatever it was...well, the context of that is a letter written to Christians about their building on God's foundation. That even if their work is like straw instead of gold, they shall be saved, but as through fire.

I'm not saying there's no UR support in the Bible. I'm just saying that you must look at the context and see to whom the writer is speaking.

This one (1 Tim 4:10) seems pretty UR to me. The only exception I can see is if being the Saviour of all and all being saved are different things. And I haven't seen any evidence for that. (That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though.)

Quote from: Reverend G on January 21, 2008, 09:03:24 AM
Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

Plan A=

"We trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who trust in Him. These things command and teach."

Plan b minus=

We trust in the living God who is the potential Saviour of some of mankind, and only those who trust in Him. These things command and teach.

Moved it forward.

Eric

Why do you not use the quote feature?  It is not difficult.  Talking to you is like talking to the voice behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.  How it works is in the Forum help and in the help button.

when i use scripture, I figure you all know its from the bible.

Nothing else to quote in the last post.  I hope your unrelated injection does not inhibit others from reading my last post and injecting thoughts and opinions regarding the subject matter.

No offense.  Just kinda rude where I come from to divert with off-the-subject posts on a thread.  But hey, I'm just a backward cherry picker so why give me any courtesy??

[Isa 29:8]
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains;
as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched.
So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.


Very curious.
Can a man have a full stomach with the-pie-in-the-sky?

70 sevens...

Your real problem is in your definition of 'mankind' and 'man'.

Are we not told to build precept on precept??  If you consider a 'man' to simply mean a homo-sapien is this a good 'spiritual' therefore scriptural understanding in your opinion???

Do  you consider all homo-sapiens 'men' and 'alive'??!!!, when this is not the case when we approach scripture from a spritual standpoint.

If you define 'man' and 'mankind' in all scriptures as simply and literally 'homo-sapien kind' then you are right.  But I firmly believe there is a deeper, spiritual and more unostensible definition that slips by the majority of scripture readers.

If the spiritual definition is more important, and IF the spiritual definition of 'man' or 'mankind' is specifically those who have spirits from the true God (and it is evident by their fruits), then I am correct.

For a true man is one who believes in Christ and/or the Love of God and it has nothing to do with your testicles nor your flesh and blood make-up.

Another point that nobody wants to discuss is the wide-sweeping generalization of 'all men' in context to other scriptures by Paul.  Paul uses 'all men' many times in his epistles and in the others he never ever literally means all homo-sapiens on earth.

I just wish you would think earnestly instead of defending such a 'swiss cheese' philosophy.  I too loved that cheese for years, it was an easy understanding to ensconce into, and I also became irrate when others pointed out flaws and fallacies between my 'cheese' and scripture.

As long as you believe the darkness can be converted and saved you will lose out on the true happening going on, the division of the light (spiritually) from the darkness (spiritually).

Genesis 1:4
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters (peoples) from the waters (peoples).

Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

Luke 12:52
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.

John 10:19
There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Acts 14:4
But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.

Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Peacetroll, love, you do yourself no favours by moving from topic to topic. It's very confusing, and I don't know what you're arguing for, or against, or...anything. I thought the thread was on the use of malista, and on when all means 'absolutely everybody', and when it means 'all kinds'.

But everyone seems to be having a different argument now, so I'm lost.

Help, please? I'm confuzzled.

Jillie

Believe me you are not the only one that is confused.  I have addressed his bible hopscotch before and cherry picking. 

Peacetroll is not a very good apologist.  Maybe the number of texts quoted or posts posted in proportion to rebuttals is the way one must reinforce their credibility while avoiding rebuttals and refusing to answer questions.

He wanders so quickly off topic and even when he gets allies, he attacks him/them too  :laugh: :LH: :pointlaugh:

70sevens does not believe in UR either.

Eric you outdid yourself this time  :LH: :mrflo:

Blessings

Well we can at least get entertainment value here.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 21, 2008, 03:18:18 PM
But hey, I'm just a backward cherry picker so why give me any courtesy??

Backward: do not quit your picking career!  :laughing7:

Again I will ask you to define what "especially" means in all English dictionaries. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And again does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?

Only= monon/ monos

Especially= malista



Plan b minus=

He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and for our sins ONLY, and not for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.

It seems to me, many points on both sides are being made that are true/have truth in them.  What strikes me is that to say "Jesus is going to save all", or on the other hand, "many will be judged", are not exclusive statements.  In my humble, still learning opinion, is it possible Jesus will save all eventually, some now, many later, but as Fine Linen alluded to wrt to the second death, the judgment that will occur is the next step in the salvation of all?  I don't see scripture saying "appointed to die, after that the judgment, God's done".  I see more happening, i.e., the gates of the new city open as the Kings of the earth bring the nations in, the leaves of the Tree of Life for the healing of the nations, etc...  Isn't that what orthodoxy and denominations do, limit God to their own little box and set of beliefs, then being unwilling to hear others who may have more revelation/understanding that we could all learn from?  I may be wrong, but this is IMO, as I understand right now.  God's blessing to all...P.S., believers, especially, are bro's and sis's..."in love, preferring one another".

That is why it needs to be understood, not ALL salvation is the SAME salvation mentioned in Scripture.

Time will come
when we realize that "Gate of the new city open...,
leaves of the tree of Life for healing of..."
are things to be accomplished within us in this life.
When our old selves die on the cross,
we will see new Jerusalem descending from heaven inside of us.

The scripture says only one salvation by Jesus.
That's the purpose of the Scripture from the begining.
So in reading scripture, beware of salvation by a fluke.

Quote from: 70sevens on January 22, 2008, 05:28:38 AM
The scripture says only one salvation by Jesus.
That's the purpose of the Scripture from the begining.
So in reading scripture, beware of salvation by a fluke.

This is called again, a hasty generalization. You think all salvation is the same. The end result will be God is all in all, that is all mankind. So therefore when you see some being saved, and some not, that doesn't mean not all mankind, that means the salvation being described is not the same salvation as the end result which is found in Christ Jesus, the one and only Salvation.

You don't have to be so ambigious, I know what you were responding to.

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 03:00:49 AM
That is why it needs to be understood, not ALL salvation is the SAME salvation mentioned in Scripture.

SOTW, you posted while I was typing this, but I think it still fits and we are basically in agreement.

Quote from: 70sevens on January 22, 2008, 05:28:38 AM

The scripture says only one salvation by Jesus.
That's the purpose of the Scripture from the begining.
So in reading scripture, beware of salvation by a fluke.

Jesus is the salvation...the "Author and Finisher of our faith".  But to say "I know exactly the way and time He'll accomplish it" may be closing ourselves to Him giving us further understanding as He chooses to reveal to us. His life, cross, death, resurrection, etc., as I understand it right now, are the clearly laid-out tenets of the faith.  However, to say "the only way He'll work is X,Y,Z and cannot include" His workings during the millinium, how He brings Israel to knowledge of His being the Messiah so that "all Israel shall be saved", how and when He works the circumstances and reveals Himself so that "every knee will bow, every tongue confess [proclaim with joy]", which is apparently not in this lifetime... I'm just not sure we can limit Him to only the way/timing we understand it and take a dogmatic stance to the point of dividing. As far as "by a fluke", I take that to mean by accident.  When Jesus knocks on anyone's door, gives us the grace and strength to believe and open that door, that's no accident at all.  He is seeking and saving that which is lost.   

The idea that ALL men does not mean all of mankind is seemingly laid waste in that scripture, isn't it?  So salvation will come to all (who believe in Him), and ESPECIALLY to all (who really believe)? So now we have 3 divisions, unbelievers who are lost, believers, and then true believers? 

quote Reverend G

QuoteThe idea that ALL men does not mean all of mankind is seemingly laid waste in that scripture, isn't it?  So salvation will come to all (who believe in Him), and ESPECIALLY to all (who really believe)? So now we have 3 divisions, unbelievers who are lost, believers, and then true believers? 

I loved these questions, especially the part about ESPECIALLY.

I guess if you are trying to plea the case that "my denomination is better than yours" then seeing it that way really is helpful.

I must admit that I do not understand what you mean. I just loved the questions, especially one specific part of your questions.

(ok, ok, maybe I was offering another example of the word especially) :bigGrin:

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 07:30:09 AM

Quote from: 70sevens on January 22, 2008, 05:28:38 AM
The scripture says only one salvation by Jesus.
That's the purpose of the Scripture from the begining.
So in reading scripture, beware of salvation by a fluke.

This is called again, a hasty generalization. You think all salvation is the same. The end result will be God is all in all, that is all mankind. So therefore when you see some being saved, and some not, that doesn't mean not all mankind, that means the salvation being described is not the same salvation as the end result which is found in Christ Jesus, the one and only Salvation.

You don't have to be so ambigious, I know what you were responding to.

You said "not ALL salvation is the SAME salvation mentioned in Scripture."

Really, you construe the salvations in many different meanings.

So far I found 4,
let me recap for you.
Correct me if I am wrong as they are your definitions.

1) Salvation - some being saved, some not

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

2) Salvation - some kind of trouble-shooting

[1Ti 4:16]
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do,
you will save both yourself and your hearers.

3) Salvation - by fluke

In fact, this salvation rescinds all the scriptures, Jesus, God,
even the word salvation itself.   
Please tell me if you think otherwise.

4) Salvation - all in all, end result

You said this salvation is different from salvation 1) above.
Keen to know how is it different specifically?

Hi Jabcat,

God has given the scripture to save 'Me' who is now here.
Really hope that we can focus on our own salvation,
rather than focusing on Israelites and the people after life.

[Joh 21:22] Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come,
what [is that] to you? You follow Me!"

As for the salvation by fluke, please refer to the post titled
"Let's ask Jesus the question 'Will few be saved?'" in this board.

God bless.

QuoteAgain I will ask you to define what "especially" means in all English dictionaries. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And again does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?

Finelinen.  If you would have read the previous threads you will see (on page one), that I give multiple definitions of malista and it honestly depends on the context like so many words and languages do.  Malista can mean many things.  'specially'...'particularly'...'in other words'.....'especially'.....so I'm not sure what your digging for.

I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that it makes no sense to say someone is 'especially' saved, and that is basically what one is saying when they say 'all men are saved, especially those that believe' in my opinion.

And the greater fallacies I have been pointing out, but all falls on deaf ears.  Paul utilizes the phrase 'all men' in other scriptures but he NEVER literally means 'all men and women on earth forever',............so my simple observation is this.......why do you choose to consider Pauls 'all men' to be literal in 1 Timothy 4:10 and yet he never means it literally ANY where else???

Then I jumped to the point that you must understand the idea or precept or definition of 'man' in a spiritual sense instead of the common earthy definition of man.

Truth and Peace in JEsus Christ, all others are liars.

I'm just asking some of you to consider Christ' words with more weight then all others, something I did'nt use to do, but since I have it's clarified so much (at least for me), and now I understand the importance of believing in Christ through thick or thin and trying my best to treat others with mercy and justice.

QuoteI'm just pointing out the obvious fact that it makes no sense to say someone is 'especially' saved, and that is basically what one is saying when they say 'all men are saved, especially those that believe' in my opinion.

Think about this....

5 people where pulled from a burning building.  3 of the people had 3rd degree burns over 90% of their body.  2 people came out completely unscathed as they smelled the smoke early.  All 5 were saved from death, but the 2 were especially saved because their bodies were preserved.

What if love, joy, and peace in the Holy Spirit were 'being saved' but it was a land far, far away...and someone said you could acess it now by believing?  And what if you did not believe, and took the long, long journey...well eventually you would get there.  But what if you believed now and got their sooner.  Wouldn't you be 'especailly' saved?

I am 'especially' saved because I see Jesus now and my quality of life is well...better.

I don't understand what is so difficult about this.   :dontknow:

There will be no more pain in the Kingdom of God.

So your analogy concerning 'burnt' people is without merit.

For their will be no pain, no death, no deformed, no liars, no murderers,...all made perfect IN CHRIST.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No burnt.  No lame.  No deformed.  No partially saved folks running about.

And as for those who believe in Christ, what 'bliss' do you speak of?  Yes we have a hope of things to come, but there is no peace nor joy in the valley of death for those in Christ.....except that looking forward to things to come...

1 Corinthians 15:19
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Paul didn't make them sound too satisfied did he?

Hebrews 11

35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

No, I see not blissful heaven on earth for true believers at all.  Contrary to orthodox preachers teachings...

Matthew 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Being a 'sheep among wolves' dont sound like no heaven to me.

At any rate.  Carry on.

QuoteMalista can mean many things.  'specially'...'particularly'...'in other words'.....'especially'.....so I'm not sure what your digging for.

You have not yet proved to anyone's satisfaction, other than perhaps your own, that malista ever means 'in other words'.

Give us something concrete here, and we can work with it.

Also, specially and especially are practically indistinguishable in meaning. Particularly is slightly different. But not hugely. 'In other words' is a huge departure from the Strong's meaning of the word, among others.

QuoteThere will be no more pain in the Kingdom of God.
So your analogy concerning 'burnt' people is without merit.

It is an analogy, and by definition is not perfect. Do you understand the point she is making?

If not, I shall put it another way. (if I am misrepresenting you, Sarah, my apologies)

"those who become Christians now, in this life, receive blessings in this life (and possibly in the age to come, I don't know if you extended it this far, Sarah) which people who are not Christians do not get. All are saved by Jesus eventually, but especially Christians who get something extra: including but not limited to:
- knowing God's love now
- joy
- the peace that passes understanding
- The Holy Spirit with us in our lives
- the power of God working in us and through us"

Do you understand the argument being made now?

Go to page one for my explanation of 'malista' the greek term as I've requested so many times before, please.  So im not being redundant.  Ah, here is at least a clip from page 1.

Quoteμαλιστα  adverb
malista  mal'-is-tah:  (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

As for the analogy given, one is either saved from the second death or not.  Your analogy is still worthless (no offense seriously).

I've made the following point about 4 times.  But it's always dodged.  Answer IF YOU WILL.

Why do you take Paul literal as you do in 1 Timothy 4:10 when Paul was not literal when he said "all Men" in so many of his other epistles??

Who will tell me why you use 'all men' literally in 1 Timothy 4:10 and not in Pauls other writtings?  Any chance that its conveniant?

And what about the spiritual definition of 'man' that keeps being dodged.  Ah, I see this is too much deep critical thinking for some of you.  But its not your faults. 

Everything according to God's plan.

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 22, 2008, 06:01:50 PM
Go to page one for my explanation of 'malista' the greek term as I've requested so many times before, please.  So im not being redundant. 

As for the analogy given, one is either saved from the second death or not.  Your analogy is still worthless (no offense seriously).

I've made the following point about 4 times.  But it's always dodged.  Answer IF YOU WILL.

Why do you take Paul literal as you do in 1 Timothy 4:10 when Paul was not literal when he said "all Men" in so many of his other epistles??

Who will tell me why you use 'all men' literally in 1 Timothy 4:10 and not in Pauls other writtings?

I personally have no problem seeing that those with faith are saved from second death (or not hurt of it), and those without faith (eyes to see, ears to hear) suffer second death and are not saved from it. 

Only Noah and his family were saved, the rest were destroyed in the "fire".


Where I believe I differ, is that I believe the "fire of second death" is not annihilation (sp?) of the person, but annihilation of the "self works, old covenant belief". 

I believe LOVE covers all sins, and that the finished work of Jesus on the cross proved the father loves all. 

Those without faith are enemies to those with faith, but "BELOVED" for the fathers sakes. 

I believe salvation comes through destruction for those without faith. 

 

Quote from: 70sevensReally, you construe the salvations in many different meanings.

No I don't. Not all salvations are the same, but in the end all mankind is saved in Christ Jesus. It is very simple.

The man who built with gold, silver and precious gems versus the man who built with wood, hay and stubble, but are saved in the end. However, when the fire went through, the man who built with good material was untouched he was saved the pain of loss; while the man who built with poor materials lost everything but is saved as one through fire.

The man who is obedient is saved from disipline; the man who is disobedient is not saved from displine, but the end result of righteousness is the same.

The man who trusts in the information given to him is accurate when it is, is saved the work of trying to do something himself which has already been proven by others; yet, the end result is the same.

Unlike some, I am not simple minded or foolish to make hasty generalizations or commit the either/or fallacies which so many who cannot see the bigger picture ever understand.

Proverbs 8:5
You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation. However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction.

Hebrews 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Some are saved this life, some are not saved this life. Some are healed (salvation) some are not healed. Etc. These all mean salvation in some sort and in some manner, and not all salvations described in Scripture all mean the same salvation. The only conclusion however, is all will recieve the final and lasting Salvation, which comes only through and in Jesus Christ; when God is all in all.

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 06:34:07 PM

Quote from: 70sevensReally, you construe the salvations in many different meanings.

No I don't. Not all salvations are the same, but in the end all mankind is saved in Christ Jesus. It is very simple.

The man who built with gold, silver and precious gems versus the man who built with wood, hay and stubble, but are saved in the end. However, when the fire went through, the man who built with good material was untouched he was saved the pain of loss; while the man who built with poor materials lost everything but is saved as one through fire.

The man who is obedient is saved from disipline; the man who is disobedient is not saved from displine, but the end result of righteousness is the same.

The man who trusts in the information given to him is accurate when it is, is saved the work of trying to do something himself which has already been proven by others; yet, the end result is the same.

Unlike some, I am not simple minded or foolish to make hasty generalizations or commit the either/or fallacies which so many who cannot see the bigger picture ever understand.

Proverbs 8:5
You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation. However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction.

Hebrews 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Some are saved this life, some are not saved this life. Some are healed (salvation) some are not healed. Etc. These all mean salvation in some sort and in some manner, and not all salvations described in Scripture all mean the same salvation. The only conclusion however, is all will recieve the final and lasting Salvation, which comes only through and in Jesus Christ; when God is all in all.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Quote from: 70sevens on January 22, 2008, 02:22:41 PM
Hi Jabcat,

God has given the scripture to save 'Me' who is now here.
Really hope that we can focus on our own salvation,
rather than focusing on Israelites and the people after life.

I question this, 70.  What's your purpose now of not wanting to discuss others, especially?  It seems to me those are good points of discussion, because the whole point of this post is "especially", and the very context itself includes a wide array of individuals/groups...if it's about you only, then there's really not much need for most of this discussion.  Seems to me we're trying to understand God's character and that's about us all, including you, me, Noah, and Lot's wife :Peace:.

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 06:34:07 PM

The man who built with gold, silver and precious gems versus the man who built with wood, hay and stubble, but are saved in the end. However, when the fire went through, the man who built with good material was untouched he was saved the pain of loss; while the man who built with poor materials lost everything but is saved as one through fire.

The man who is obedient is saved from disipline; the man who is disobedient is not saved from displine, but the end result of righteousness is the same.

Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation. However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction.

Amen!

Quoteμαλιστα  adverb
malista  mal'-is-tah:  (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I am, in fact, agreeing with all of those as meanings.

I'll take the rest a bit at a time.

QuoteWhy do you take Paul literal as you do in 1 Timothy 4:10 when Paul was not literal when he said "all Men" in so many of his other epistles??


Who will tell me why you use 'all men' literally in 1 Timothy 4:10 and not in Pauls other writtings?  Any chance that its conveniant?

Other occasions where Paul uses 'all men' (note, you asked for Paul, so Paul it is):

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
(everyone in the world, ever, dies because of sin. So this one's ok.)

Romans 5:18 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."
(Ah. This one is tricky to explain, Peacetroll. Because the first all men definitely means everybody, so the second should too, shouldn't it?)

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
(This one seems like an everybody, everywhere, everytime thing too, correct me if I'm wrong.)

1 Corinthians 7:7 "I wish thatall men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that"
(All men everywhere? All Christians? Discuss, but I think you can make a case for all men meaning all men here too.)

1 Corinthians 9:22 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."
(Hmm. This one obviously cannot mean all men from context, just all men that Paul has met so far in his life. But the above examples clearly cannot be limited to just men Paul has met. Isn't context grand?)

1 Corinthians 12:6 "There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men."
(Pass. Anyone else care to take this one? It could mean either.)

1 Corinthians 15:9 "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
(Yes, I think that one means more than anyone, ever. Because if Christ is a false hope then they are throwing their lives away on Him. (Praise God that Jesus is alive!))

1 Thess 2:15 "who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men"
(Context: can't mean everyone, everywhere, ever, because they haven't lived forever in all places. So it just means all men they have come into contact with.)

1 Tim 2:4 "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
(Seems like an absolutely everybody thing to me here, too)

1 Tim 2:6 "who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time."
(I think that probably means what it says too, but feel free to disagree)

1 Tim 4:10 "(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."
(Our starting verse)

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
(Another odd one.)

Titus 3:2 "to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men."
(I'm guessing all men here means 'everyone you meet'.)

Hebrews 12:14 "[ Warning Against Refusing God  ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
(See previous)

Hebrews 12:23 "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,"
(That one is DEFINITELY everybody!)

1 Peter 1:24 (ok, I know this one isn't Paul, but...) "For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,"
(That's everybody too, isn't it?)

QuoteAnd what about the spiritual definition of 'man' that keeps being dodged.  Ah, I see this is too much deep critical thinking for some of you.  But its not your faults.

We haven't been dodging the question. You've just been flitting from one question to another without any conclusion being drawn. It confuses people like me, so please have patience.

I will deal with the spiritual definition of man when you tell me exactly how many of these texts mean 'all men' to mean something other than all men?

My answer: 6. And 5 of these refer to men doing something to 'all men'. And one I highlighted because I don't really know what it means. All but one of the ones that refer to God, who transcends time and so deals with absolutely everybody...I think you've got a strong case to say that when they say all, they mean ALL, ever.

 Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Jesus IS that gate.

John 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.  

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

When He says destruction , He means destruction.

Concerning spiritual men, why did Jesus say this in prophesy

Psalm 22:12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  

21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22I will declare thy name unto my brethren:  in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Who had Jesus surrounded on the cross and gaped at Him and taunted Him?Here are three true witnesses.

Matthew 27:41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15:30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

When he said cast not your pearls of wisdom before swine,He wasn't talking about pigs.When he said the washed sow returns to the mud wallow he was speaking of people who heard and rejected the gospel of Christ.

You are only a man if you are part of that MAN which is in heaven, spiritually.Christ in you.Predestinated before the foundation of the world!

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.   

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.[/color]

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 22, 2008, 08:19:36 PM
Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Jesus IS that gate.

John 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.  

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

When He says destruction , He means destruction.

Concerning spiritual men, why did Jesus say this in prophesy

Psalm 22:12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.  

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.  

21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22I will declare thy name unto my brethren:  in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Who had Jesus surrounded on the cross and gaped at Him and taunted Him?Here are three true witnesses.

Matthew 27:41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15:30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

When he said cast not your pearls of wisdom before swine,He wasn't talking about pigs.When he said the washed sow returns to the mud wallow he was speaking of people who heard and rejected the gospel of Christ.

You are only a man if you are part of that MAN which is in heaven, spiritually.Christ in you.Predestinated before the foundation of the world!

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.   

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.[/color]

So Peacetroll, to you; is life obtained now, or later for those with faith? 


I also wonder why, since most here have faith in Christ; that you come to a UR website to prove us wrong, rather than to fellowship in what we have in common?  faith in Jesus Christ

Do you feel that faith in Christ expressed as love is not enough, and that we must believe as you, in annihilation/second death, in order to avoid that fire?

Do you not have a forum for those who believe as you?? 

also wondering what you think of the verse

re: those hardened in Romans 11

they are enemies for your sakes (referring to those with ears to hear) but beloved for the fathers sakes?

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 22, 2008, 08:19:36 PM
Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Yep. You just don't know what destruction is for. Jesus spoke in parables. You only see what you wanted to see, but that is not what he was saying.

Isaiah 45:22-24
"Turn to me and be saved,
      all you ends of the earth;
      for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
      my mouth has uttered in all integrity
      a word that will not be revoked:
      Before me every knee will bow;
      by me every tongue will swear.
They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
      are righteousness and strength.' "
      All who have raged against him
      will come to him and be put to shame.

Everyone is saved, including those who are put to shame, those who are destroyed, those who are hardened because in the end God swore himself, with full integrity which cannot be revoked. His gifts and callings are irrevocable. Before him, every knee will bow and every tongue will swear alligience and all will know that in the Lord alone are righteousness and strength. There is not one person who got there by any action or word or belief of their own, that includes those who raged against him.

Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So, as Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all {mankind}, and therefore all {mankind} died {in Him}. And he died for all {mankind}, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one {from all mankind} from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone {all mankind} is in Christ, he {all mankind} is a new creation; the old has gone {because He died for all mankind, and therefore all mankind died in Him}, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world {all mankind} to himself in Christ, not counting men's {all mankind} sins against them {all mankind}. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You read what you want to read Peacetroll, and that is why you struggle. You do not have revelation, nor has the Spirit confirmed this in you. I can only speak from logic, facts and experience. The Lord Himself came to me and told me what I read from logic, facts and experience, was indeed true. We all have to come out of the Church of Babylon's indoctrination. You still are stuck on revenge, vengence, and pride and ego.

QuoteDon't you all hear what you are saying?

You asked, I answered. It's the Bible, Peacetroll. I can't change it just because you don't like it. You asked for other times Paul had used all men to mean everybody, at all times, everywhere. I answered to the best of my ability. What you choose to glean from this is entirely up to you.

Now, seeing as you cannot debunk my line of argument, and instead are trying to tell me I'm talking nonsense, shall we move on? To reiterate: Jesus said He is the only way to God. I believe Him. That isn't necessarily incompatible with what I've just put forward. Ok?

Your second point was on the spiritual definition of man.

(Please note, I will take 'man' at all points to mean 'person of either sex'. It just makes it easier to say that at the start.)

QuoteAre we not told to build precept on precept??  If you consider a 'man' to simply mean a homo-sapien is this a good 'spiritual' therefore scriptural understanding in your opinion???

Do  you consider all homo-sapiens 'men' and 'alive'??!!!, when this is not the case when we approach scripture from a spritual standpoint.

If you define 'man' and 'mankind' in all scriptures as simply and literally 'homo-sapien kind' then you are right.  But I firmly believe there is a deeper, spiritual and more unostensible definition that slips by the majority of scripture readers.

There is no such word as unostensible, by the way. But that's irrelevant, I only mention it because I'm a stickler (the kind of person who likes Lynne Truss books).

OK, you want a meaning of the word 'man' that is spiritual.

QuoteIf the spiritual definition is more important, and IF the spiritual definition of 'man' or 'mankind' is specifically those who have spirits from the true God (and it is evident by their fruits), then I am correct.

So you here define 'man' as 'Christian'. Am I right?

QuoteFor a true man is one who believes in Christ and/or the Love of God and it has nothing to do with your testicles nor your flesh and blood make-up.

I see. Can you please provide a Scriptural reference for this?

QuoteAnother point that nobody wants to discuss is the wide-sweeping generalization of 'all men' in context to other scriptures by Paul.  Paul uses 'all men' many times in his epistles and in the others he never ever literally means all homo-sapiens on earth.

I already covered that one.

So, in essence, you are claiming that 'man' and 'men' means 'Christian' and 'Christians'.

Please see my previous post for the quotes with 'men' in them. Please count how many refer only to Christians when they talk about men.

You could make a possible case for...one, maybe two if you reaaaaallllly stretched.

Sorry Peacetroll, but you haven't convinced me. Quote me some Scripture which defines 'man' as 'man who knows God' and we'll see, huh?

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 08:38:50 PM

Quote from: Peacetroll on January 22, 2008, 08:19:36 PM
Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Yep. You just don't know what destruction is for. Jesus spoke in parables. You only see what you wanted to see, but that is not what he was saying.

Isaiah 45:22-24
"Turn to me and be saved,
      all you ends of the earth;
      for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
      my mouth has uttered in all integrity
      a word that will not be revoked:
      Before me every knee will bow;
      by me every tongue will swear.
They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
      are righteousness and strength.' "
      All who have raged against him
      will come to him and be put to shame.

Everyone is saved, including those who are put to shame, those who are destroyed, those who are hardened because in the end God swore himself, with full integrity which cannot be revoked. His gifts and callings are irrevocable. Before him, every knee will bow and every tongue will swear alligience and all will know that in the Lord alone are righteousness and strength. There is not one person who got there by any action or word or belief of their own, that includes those who raged against him.

Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So, as Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all {mankind}, and therefore all {mankind} died {in Him}. And he died for all {mankind}, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one {from all mankind} from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone {all mankind} is in Christ, he {all mankind} is a new creation; the old has gone {because He died for all mankind, and therefore all mankind died in Him}, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world {all mankind} to himself in Christ, not counting men's {all mankind} sins against them {all mankind}. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You read what you want to read Peacetroll, and that is why you struggle. You do not have revelation, nor has the Spirit confirmed this in you. I can only speak from logic, facts and experience. The Lord Himself came to me and told me what I read from logic, facts and experience, was indeed true. We all have to come out of the Church of Babylon's indoctrination. You still are stuck on revenge, vengence, and pride and ego.

Craig, thank you for this post.  I am so thankful that I have been given glimpses of his LOVE, and have through this revelation, slowly been able to know no man after the flesh, including myself.   

Craig, because I say you have to have faith in Christ you slander me????!!.  oh well.  No offense taken.  I'd rebutal but I'd like to reply to another question.  I'm amazed at your personal attacks, and your insight into my heart (a feat hard to do for a man and reserved for God),... but I hold it not to your charge.

Back to scripture and adult discussion...

A Man is a person who has Christ indwelling.  Christ is the son of Man.  And those with Christ indwelling are 'Men' in the spiritual sense, and without Christ in you, you are not even considered Alive, LET alone a man to the true God!  HIT ME!!!

Without Christ in you, you are a spiritual 'beast' and have no life in you, and you believe the true God considers something not even alive a man???????????

Your coverage of the wide-sweeping generalization of 'all men' to literally mean all homo-sapiens is weak at best.  In fact its so weak I had to go back and try to PRY OUT any logic out of your arguement.

Here is an example of 'all men' used by Paul, you tell me directly if it means literally all people everywhere (couch :laughing7:).  I'm sorry, but I'm finding this hillarious (especially your statement about no word such as unostensible, when ostensible is a word and UN simply means NOT such and such).  Ah well.

Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Did they part their possessions to all men (everyone on earth?).

---

Acts 4:21
So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Did everyone on earth glorify God at that time for what was done?
please.

---

Acts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Again, all people on earth?  of course not.

---

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Of course he was not a witness to everyone that ever lived on earth, was he.

---

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Obviously there where people in China who had not even heard of Paul.

---

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Obviously he didn't please Ceaser nor the Pharisaical Jews who wished to see him dead.

---

2 Corinthians 3:2
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Gee, I guess he meant the Indians in America too?  Of course he did...NOT.

---

2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

All men have not faith?  Is this a fact???????!!!!!!!!!

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So what is it?  No men have faith or not?  Did Paul have faith in Christ?  In God?  Did Enoch?  did David?  Did John?

You have to take it in context.

'All Men' is most the time a state of speech that should not be taken literally most the time.

QuoteCraig, because I say you have to have faith in Christ you slander me????!!.  oh well.  No offense taken.  I'd rebutal but I'd like to reply to another question.  I'm amazed at your personal attacks, and your insight into my heart (a feat hard to do for a man and reserved for God),... but I hold it not to your charge.

I did not slander you, you made an accusation and that accusation came out of you. That accusation was addressed. Regardless if you see it or not, you are one track minded and see what you want to see regardless of the refuting opinions presented. Stating facts is not insulting, nothing I said was emotionally based. A person who lacks knowledge is ignorant, that is not an insult that is the truth. A child is not an adult, so to call an child a child, is not an insult, it is the truth.

You have yet to ADDRESS the rebuttle, instead you have ALWAYS brought new things to the table and that is your weakness. Once we refuted your position, you go on to the next thing without even addressing the fact you were refuted. Instead, you know you were refuted accurately and look for a new way to present your argument. That is because you will not drop your belief based on the facts, you just want to find facts that 'might' support your belief. This is a sign of denial.

So if you were truly concerned, you will revoke your claim that MALISTA means 'That is' or 'in otherwords' or prove it. Once it is disproved, you must drop it and recognize you were wrong.

Quotenor has the Spirit confirmed this in you

So much for your 'facts', at best this is your opinion.

Let God be my judge man.

QuoteSo if you were truly concerned, you will revoke your claim that MALISTA means 'That is' or 'in otherwords' or prove it. Once it is disproved, you must drop it and recognize you were wrong.

I do not revoke my claim that Malista can mean 'that is' or 'particularly' for it absolutely can mean that.  I've already stated earlier that I understand your position, based on the english translation 'especially'.

For example (taking your side), If I say,...

"Save all the people, especially the women and children" then this means save everyone, paying special attention to the women and children. 

Given this definition (especially), I can see where you come from.  But there is more to the context of 1 Timothy 4:10 then meets the eye (I.E. spiritual definition of man, the use of 'all men' as a generalization NOT a literal statement, etc.).

I believe we can agree to disagree on 1 Timothy 4:10, but you sir still have not come to grips with the spiritual definition of Man, which is the only definition that concerns the true God.

He's doing a really excellent job, though, SotW. Really, because I am by no means a Biblical universalist but he's really convincing me of, at the very least, the logic of your arguments.

See? God works all things to the good of those who love Him.

My point, Peacetroll, is that:

'all men' in the context of people, means 'everyone you know, meet, etc' because we are finite, temporal, and limited by geography, but
When God does something for 'all men' He does it for everyone He knows (which is everybody, ever).

Like you said, you have to take it in context. Death came to all men through Adam. Life comes to all men through Christ. What is your interpretation of this, please?

I'm glad you ask.

This is a much misunderstood parable that I hope to clarify.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since by man came death (Adam and the Tree of Knowledge!), by man came also the resurrection of the dead.(Christ!)

(1)For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(1)As in Adam all die.

This means all who are in the image of Adam die.  The flesh.  The flesh profits nothing.  All homo-sapiens will die because they are IN Adam (or IN his likeness..the flesh).  All IN Adam (and not in Christ) are spiritually dead. 

Adam sealed the fate of all homo-sapiens via his unobediance to the true God (which was realized by his eating of the Tree of Knowledge).  This brought spiritual death to Homo-sapien kind.

---

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, (2) even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(2) even so ((in)) Christ shall all be made alive

This means ALL IN Christ are made alive.  Not all born of woman are IN Christ.  The evidence of being IN CHRIST are faith in Jesus, Love for others and the fruits do follow. 

One more time, ALL homo-sapiens are IN Adam.  But not all homo-sapiens are IN Christ.  Follow?

Unless you are IN Christ you are not alive and are dead (spiritually), thus as IN ADAM all die (spiritually and physically)!

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Paul spoke of those who believe in Christ being one body IN Christ!

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

I honestly hope you can grasp what I am trying to tell you.

Peace and LIFE IN CHRIST.

I see. A good, logical, nicely presented argument. Kudos.

One question, as I know very little about Greek grammar:

Wouldn't it just have been easier for Paul to say "even so, all in Christ shall be made alive" rather than "in Christ all shall be made alive" if that's not what he meant?

See, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" suggests to me that EVERYONE shall be made alive (because of Christ).

but "as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive" suggests to me that it's only those in Christ who shall be made alive.

I know nada about Greek grammar, so can someone look it up and explain to me the original word order and which of these it means?

Thank you kindly.

Quote from: JillieRose on January 22, 2008, 09:58:33 PM
He's doing a really excellent job, though, SotW. Really, because I am by no means a Biblical universalist but he's really convincing me of, at the very least, the logic of your arguments.

Sorry, I did not understand your reply?

I'm saying, SotW, that you don't have to do any fancy arguing to convince me of Biblical Universalism.

This is because our friend who argues against it does such a spectacularly bad job that I end up agreeing with you.  :laughing7:

Troll: come down out of your cherry tree at your earliest convenience and disclose to us what
"especially" means in all English dictionaries. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And again does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?

QuoteFinelinen.  If you would have read the previous threads you will see (on page one), that I give multiple definitions of malista and it honestly depends on the context like so many words and languages do.  Malista can mean many things.  'specially'...'particularly'...'in other words'.....'especially'.....so I'm not sure what your digging for.

I am digging for the meaning of malista in English and Koine. Does it mean exclusively or only? Does it Cherry Picker?  :mshock:

1 Tim. 4:10

QuoteWe accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe. -Wm. Barclay N.T.-

"And above all"= especially= malista=

Chiefly.

Most of all/ above all.

Especially.

To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.

Encarta World Dictionary

1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.

2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.

3. Chiefly

4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.

American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language

To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis --particulary.

Infoplease Dictionary

Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly.

Miriam Webster

For a particular purpose.

To an extent or degree deserving special emphasis.

In an especial manner; chiefly; particularily; in an uncommon degree.

Cambridge Dictionary Of American English

Used to emphasize the importance of one thing among others of its type or to the point of one thing among others-- particularly

Please note:

Malista does not mean monon or monos!

Monon= exclusively/ only

Malista= especially/ chiefly/ most of all/ above all.

QuoteI'm just pointing out the obvious fact that it makes no sense to say someone is 'especially' saved, and that is basically what one is saying when they say 'all men are saved, especially those that believe' in my opinion.

As much as we value your opinion, there are many dimensions of salvation and many/ polus abodes in our Lord's great Kingdom. Can you tell us if firstfruits are the whole harvest?

Quote from: JillieRose on January 22, 2008, 11:19:24 PM
I'm saying, SotW, that you don't have to do any fancy arguing to convince me of Biblical Universalism.

This is because our friend who argues against it does such a spectacularly bad job that I end up agreeing with you.  :laughing7:

oooh, ya. That is what I thought you said. :)

Quote from: laren on January 22, 2008, 08:36:38 PM
Peacetroll, reposted

also wondering what you think of the verse

they are enemies for your sakes (referring to those with ears to hear) but beloved for the fathers sakes?

in Romans 11.

thanks.  

Quote from: PeaceTrollI believe we can agree to disagree on 1 Timothy 4:10, but you sir still have not come to grips with the spiritual definition of Man, which is the only definition that concerns the true God.

Then you admit you were wrong about Malista, good. That Jesus is savior of all 'spiritual' men, especially those who believe. Now that statement doesn't even make sense.

Quote from: JillieRose on January 22, 2008, 10:42:32 PM
I know nada about Greek grammar, so can someone look it up and explain to me the original word order and which of these it means?

Thank you kindly.

Bible Crosswalk

Especially=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=especially&section=2&version=str&language=en

Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=4&verse=10&version=KJV#10

QuoteWe toil and agonize because our hopes are set on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all men--of believers in particular. -Montgomery-

James Moffatt

QuoteWe toil and strive, because our hope is fixed on the living God, the Saviour of all men--of believers in particular.

Analytical/ Literal Translation

QuoteFor this [reason] we both labour and are insulted [or, denounced], because we have placed our hope on [or, have trusted in] the living God, who is [the] Saviour [or, Preserver] of all people, especially believers.

The New Testament Of The Jerusalem Bible

QuoteI mean the point of all our toiling and battling is that we have put our trust in the living God and He is the Saviour of the whole human race, but particulary of believers.

Jonathan Mitchell New Testament

HERE (http://greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/index.html)

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/index.html

Quote9. The Word [is] full of faith (or: Faithful {Trustworthy} [is] the word) and worthy of all welcomed reception,

10. for into this [end] are we constantly working hard unto weariness, and are continuously struggling in the contest (contending for the prize; other MSS: being reproached), because we have placed our expectation (hope) and thus rely upon a living God (or: upon [the] living God), Who is (exists being) [the] Savior (Deliverer; Rescuer; Restorer to health and wholeness) of all mankind ‑ especially of believers (of ones full of faith and trust; of faithful ones)!

11. Be constantly announcing these things to those at your side, passing them along from one to another, and keep on teaching them!

Dr. Wm. Barclay New Testament

QuoteIt is for this reason that we accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe.

Quote"as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

This was the quote I meant, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The meaning of 1 Tim 4:10 seems to be just what you said, so that one's grand. Thank you.

Quote from: JillieRose on January 22, 2008, 11:55:14 PM

Quote"as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

This was the quote I meant, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The meaning of 1 Tim 4:10 seems to be just what you said, so that one's grand. Thank you.

Actually J.R. you were clear. I however have become discombobulated with Troll,  and my poor mind has suffered as a result.  :happygrin:

QuoteFor as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive...

Bible Crosswalk

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=as+in+adam+all+die&section=2&version=str&language=en

Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=15&verse=22&version=KJV#22

It is an interesting fact that the making alive in Christ Jesus is in stages ultimately consummating in every enemy being made subject to Him by the working of hupotasso that God may be all in all.

Hupotasso=

To arrange under/ to subordinate.

To subject/ to put in subjection.

To subject one's self/ to obey.

To submit to one's control.

To yield to one's admonition and advice.

To obey/ be subject.

Quote from: 70sevens on January 21, 2008, 05:06:46 PM
[Isa 29:8]
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains;
as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched.
So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.


Very curious.
Can a man have a full stomach with the-pie-in-the-sky?

You misread Isa 29:8. As long as they fight against Mount Zion is when they remain hungry and thirsty.

Romans 12:19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Quote from: SOtW on January 22, 2008, 06:34:07 PM

Quote from: 70sevensReally, you construe the salvations in many different meanings.

No I don't. Not all salvations are the same, but in the end all mankind is saved in Christ Jesus. It is very simple.

The man who built with gold, silver and precious gems versus the man who built with wood, hay and stubble, but are saved in the end. However, when the fire went through, the man who built with good material was untouched he was saved the pain of loss; while the man who built with poor materials lost everything but is saved as one through fire.

The man who is obedient is saved from disipline; the man who is disobedient is not saved from displine, but the end result of righteousness is the same.

The man who trusts in the information given to him is accurate when it is, is saved the work of trying to do something himself which has already been proven by others; yet, the end result is the same.

Unlike some, I am not simple minded or foolish to make hasty generalizations or commit the either/or fallacies which so many who cannot see the bigger picture ever understand.

Proverbs 8:5
You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation. However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction.

Hebrews 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Some are saved this life, some are not saved this life. Some are healed (salvation) some are not healed. Etc. These all mean salvation in some sort and in some manner, and not all salvations described in Scripture all mean the same salvation. The only conclusion however, is all will recieve the final and lasting Salvation, which comes only through and in Jesus Christ; when God is all in all.

1.
Would you please answer to my question without going off-focus?
Remember, when we are discussing the following verse

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

you said the salvation mentioned above is not the same with 'all in all salvation'.
So I asked you how was it different sepcifically.
I want you to tell me "salvation in 1Ti 4:10 vursus 'all in all salvation",
this is where we are.
I will hear from you about 1Cor, Hebrews, Proverbs later,
after I confirm this bit with you.

2.
Quote-------------------------------
Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation.
However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction
---------------------------------------

This statement directly contradicts to what Jesus is saying.
Jesus is the narrow gate itself, i.e. salvation.
No salvation remains after this gate, Jesus.
City of salvation for all??? No chance.
In that case Jesus died in vain and for nothing.

Anyway please answer the above question,
truth will be revealed bit by bit.

Quote from: SOtW on January 23, 2008, 01:16:04 AM

Quote from: 70sevens on January 21, 2008, 05:06:46 PM
[Isa 29:8]
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains;
as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched.
So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.


Very curious.
Can a man have a full stomach with the-pie-in-the-sky?

You misread Isa 29:8. As long as they fight against Mount Zion is when they remain hungry and thirsty.

Romans 12:19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

My quote [Isa29:8] was from NIV,
nevertheless I can accept your quote,
as I do not see any contraditons in meaning.
On what basis you said I, NIV, misread?

I do not wish to widen the subject.
So I will hear from you only,
if  I do no not have strong obejction.

Quote from: FinelinenActually J.R. you were clear. I however have become discombobulated with Troll,  and my poor mind has suffered as a result.

Will this help?

Quote from: 70sevens on January 23, 2008, 01:42:15 AM
1.
Would you please answer to my question without going off-focus?
Remember, when we are discussing the following verse

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

you said the salvation mentioned above is not the same with 'all in all salvation'.
So I asked you how was it different sepcifically.
I want you to tell me "salvation in 1Ti 4:10 vursus 'all in all salvation",
this is where we are.

I have always been on 1Ti 4:10. It is when people use other versus to show that 1Ti 4:10 is not talking about "all mankind" being saved by using other Scriptures which demonstrate in some way that some are saved and some are not, that they are not talking about the same salvation. So everytime someone goes off the track and uses a Scripture to show some are not saved, in order to contradict 1Ti 4:10 which says all mankind is indeed saved, it is they who have misunderstood. Because either Paul was not annointed and he is a liar, or Jesus was not annointed and He is a liar, or the truth is, both are annointed and speak the truth.

Quote
Quote-------------------------------
Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation.
However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction
---------------------------------------

This statement directly contradicts to what Jesus is saying.
Jesus is the narrow gate itself, i.e. salvation.
No salvation remains after this gate, Jesus.
City of salvation for all??? No chance.
In that case Jesus died in vain and for nothing.

Anyway please answer the above question,
truth will be revealed bit by bit.

It does not contradict anything Jesus was saying. Especially when you say 'Not a Chance'. You have no idea that some those who believe will not taste death, but those who die and yet believe will see life. Jesus is not just the LIFE, He is also the RESURRECTION, but I guess you don't believe that.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he is dead; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Hasty Generalizations are fallacies. There is no truth in error, therefore if you see any contradiction in Scripture, it is not because there is a contradiction, only that the person who sees it doesn't have all the gaps filled yet. The knowledge of the truth still hidden from their eyes.

What happens to those who go through the gate of destruction? They perish. They are dead. How can these men who are dead, be saved? They are RAISED from the dead. What happens to those who go through the gate of life? They live, and never die in the first place.

Luke 18:26-28Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

It is such foolishness to say Jesus died for nothing because you then demonstrate you have no idea why He died in the first place! That shows exactly the fallacy which you believe. Why did Jesus die? THE RECONCILIATION OF ALL MANKIND.

Romans 5:10-11
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Ephesians 2:14-17
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.

Colossians 1:19-23
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior but now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation.

2 Corinthians 5:14-16, 18-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

He did not die for nothing, He died so that all mankind will be reconciled in Him. Jesus died and saved all mankind through the Resurrection. So you have NO reason whatsoever to even say, "If this is so, then Jesus died for nothing." He died to RECONCILE all mankind to God, no condition but His own.

So now, if any are destroyed, should any perish, they are not considered strangers but son's of God and He will raise them up from the dead. Do you think the HOPE the apostles had was in the cross? No, it HAS ALWAYS BEEN, in the resurrection of the dead. You demonstrate you do not know the Scriptures as much as you say you do.

Acts 23:6
Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

John 8:28 So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 14:11
It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

Those who refuse to see this, purposely ignore it.

1 Corinthians 15:12-15
But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

Have a cookie, FineLinen. It'll make you feel better!

Thank you, that's very helpful. The general commentaries seem to think that 'all in Christ shall be made alive' means everyone gets raised, but Christians are raised first, and the wicked are raised to judgement. I'm going to go look at it further, but this has been a really good start.

By the way, Peacetroll, thank you. I'm so much clearer now having settled in my mind why I disagree with you. Have a cookie also.

QuoteDon't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Hi PT I don't think you have a proper understanding of that scripture.
Its talking about entering into the kingdom of heaven.

Here is the way the Lord explained it to me.

Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which enter into the kingdom of heaven that way.

Here is what it means to be "Fitted" to destruction

There is a doctern that the church has been teaching for so long now that mankind excepts it without actually taking it to God and check it out in His word to see if it is true.
This doctern is based on fear and is a lie more damaging then the one about the rapture.
This doctern is ETERNAL TORMENT (E.T.) it is a lie and has not even entered into the mind of God.
The scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 1Tim4:10
Did you get that? Jesus Christ is the Saviour of ALL MEN, SPECIALLY of those that believe.
The bible tell us Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Brothers and sisters this corn of wheat was FITTED to destruction. which brings me to the topic at hand.

What does it mean to be fitted to destruction?
I see two different conclusions to this verse.
1) ALL MEN-UNIVERSAL
2) ONE MAN-PERSONAL
And I believe the scriptures speak of both and that both are assured to come to pass.

1) ALL MEN

Ro.9:19-24 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find
fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art
thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him
that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the
potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel
unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to
shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that
he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of
mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom
he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Now why would God make vessels unto dishonour ? So that He could
shew His wrath and make His power known.(the power of the
cross)

Why did He make vessels unto honour ? So He could make known
the riches of His glory.

The vessels unto honour everyone I think will agree are those that
overcome in this life,and the vessels of dishonour are those
that don't.

Okay then lets look how God is going to shew forth the power of
the cross to the vessels of dishonour. What if God, willing to shew
his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much
longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

You can see that these vessels are fitted to distruction,but what
does it mean to be fitted to distruction? Let look at it:The word fitted
comes from the Greek word 2675 katartizo { kat-ar-tid'-zo}

from 2596 and a derivative of 739; TDNT - 1:475,80; v

AV - perfect 2, make perfect 2, mend 2, be perfect 2, fit 1, frame
1, prepare 1, restore 1, perfectly joined together 1; 13

GK - 2936 { katartivzw }

1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he
ought to be
Enhanced Strong's Lexicon

so you can see they are to be made complete as they ought to be
made,and how is that? in the image of God.

So then both the vessels of honour and dishonour are made
complete in Christ. All men will be saved.

2) ONE MAN

Verse 21 says Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the SAME LUMP to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
This SAME LUMP is speaking of ONE MAN (one body). It is speaking of our old man (flesh) and the spiritual man. One vessel unto honour ( spiritual man) ,one vessel unto dishonour (old man) of the SAME LUMP. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Verse 17 says For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Am I ever glad that God in His wisdom used Pharaoh for this statement. Pharaoh is an example of our old man (flesh). Pharaoh kept Gods children in bitter bondage and would not let them go , until the deliverer Moses ( type of Christ) came and delivered Gods people out of bitter bondage, and slew Pharaoh and the Egyptians in the sea(type of baptisem). In like manner our old man (flesh) keeps us in bitter bondage until we are delivered by Jesus Christ and our old man(flesh) and all works of the old man (flesh) are destroyed by baptisem in the cross of Jesus Christ.
Our old man(flesh) is fitted to destruction so the new man can come forth , Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

This is exactly what the second death accomplishes in our life.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

They shall not be hurt does not by any means mean that they don't go though the 2nd death , it means that they do go though but like the 3 Hebrew children they will not be hurt in the fire. They have in fact become a part of the fire.


More on fitted. (katartizo )

Katartizo ( fitted ) Is always used for making things as they should be made.

We read in Mt.4:41 & Mk.1:19 of James and John mending (katartizo ) thier nets.

We read in Co.1:10 how we are to be perfectly joined together (katartizo) in mind and judgment with Christ.

In Gal.6:1 we read how we are to restore(katartizo) one who are taken in a fault.

In Heb.13:20-21 we read how our great shepherd through the blood of the everlasting covenant, makes us perfect (katartizo) in every good work to do Hid will.

And in

1 Peter 5:10 we read

10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect(katartizo) stablish, strengthen, settle you.

That after we have SUFFERED a while makes us perfect, establishs us, strengthens us,and settles us.

Brother we are all fitted to destruction , wherein our old man is crucified forevermore no longer to rise again because a NEW MAN is standing where an old man once stood.

God will mend and restore us in His fire unto a perfect man.

Quote from: SOtW on January 23, 2008, 10:20:49 AM
I have always been on 1Ti 4:10. It is when people use other versus to show that 1Ti 4:10 is not talking about "all mankind" being saved by using other Scriptures which demonstrate in some way that some are saved and some are not, that they are not talking about the same salvation. So everytime someone goes off the track and uses a Scripture to show some are not saved, in order to contradict 1Ti 4:10 which says all mankind is indeed saved, it is they who have misunderstood. Because either Paul was not annointed and he is a liar, or Jesus was not annointed and He is a liar, or the truth is, both are annointed and speak the truth.

You said that 'end result salvation' was different from 'some salvation.'
I said the both were same.
But you said that was hasty generalization. Not all salvation were same.
I said then you to explain specifically why the said salvations were different.
But you keep on saying that they are different,
one is 'end result', the other is 'some, some not.'

Is there any salvation quality difference? Or what.
I hope you can hit the mark this time.
At least, I want to agree to disagree.

You know why?
You do not have the specific concept of 'end result salvation',
which does not even exist in the manner you think.

Anyhow, I will be waiting for you reply.
I will not touch on your lengthy bible quotes in order not
to diversify our topics at one time.

Quote from: JillieRose on January 23, 2008, 11:29:58 AM
Have a cookie, FineLinen. It'll make you feel better!

We will now ask Troll to come forward and lead us in singing.....

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!

HERE (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/c/icnotwhy.htm)