Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[Seth]

I guess I had hoped you would (as do I need to) think about this a little more rather than have such a quick and "with-in the usual context" response. 

It's because I actually already agreed with what you were saying. I was explaining how it factored in to what I have been saying in this thread for 12 pages.

But no, I don't believe Paul was "turned over to his own mind" to suffer the consequences.  I believe God's mercy and unmerited favor sustained Him and kept him exactly where God wanted him - safely resting in the arms of His Savior.  Knowing that just as God said, His grace was sufficient for him.  Even in his honest weaknesses.

I didn't say he was. I said he wrote about God's wrath in that manner it in Romans 1, turning them over to a debased mind.

The difference I tried to make clear is someone covering their sins vs. the person in obedience, confessing them and looking to Jesus - yet still being an imperfect human being in need of - and receiving God's approval and mercy- only through the blood of His Son applied.  That his "works" at that point were honesty, openness, and trusting Jesus as His Propitiation.

I see God's mercy as in delivering us from what enslaves us. We ought to despise not the chastening of the Lord. The chastening of the Lord may not feel good, but it results in the peaceable fruit of righteousness in those who are exercised thereby.

But, doesn't it make sense that if a BELIEVER must wait for deliverance from what enslaves him, it means that he has not realized it through faith alone, and must pray to God to give strength to be delivered. I don't know why I need to think about that, as I already agree.

[jabcat]

Thanks, sorry if I misunderstood.  Sometimes things sound different the first time.   :Peace2:

[Seth]

Thanks, sorry if I misunderstood.  Sometimes things sound different the first time.   :Peace2:

:thumbsup: :friendstu:

I think folks might think that when I talk about works it means I think people need to be Mother Theresa or something.

[sheila]

Seth,first of all I want to apoligize if I have said/done anything that made you feel you had to defend yourself.

    I know that I have said 'I hear a clang of legalism' and I wonder if that hasn't to do with getting the ball

rolling in all that's happened. I'm sorry bro, I didn't intend it that way.

   But I remember saying one time...'I have to know He loves me or I just can't lay my life down"

and you saying 'Me,neither,Sheila "  and I think that is difference in even this faith / works thing.

  anger/wrath versus His loving,maybe even stern correction.  We are better off with His stern correction

if needed..but still need to know it is of the LOVE RELATIONSHIP.  I am glad He does not leave me to my

own ways..but saves me even from myself!! But to lay it down[suceed] I need to know He loves me[coz

love never fails]

    that Love is the foundation that makes all things possible.

[Seth]

Seth,first of all I want to apoligize if I have said/done anything that made you feel you had to defend yourself.

    I know that I have said 'I hear a clang of legalism' and I wonder if that hasn't to do with getting the ball

 rolling in all that's happened. I'm sorry bro, I didn't intend it that way.

Thank you Sheila, I appreciate you reaching out about that. It's all good, and in all fairness, you did say that you didn't think I was being legalistic. I felt like I was getting mixed messages because if I am not being legalistic, I didn't understand why my post was clanging, but thank you for clarifying.

But I remember saying one time...'I have to know He loves me or I just can't lay my life down"

 and you saying 'Me,neither,Sheila "  and I think that is difference in even this faith / works thing.

  anger/wrath versus His loving,maybe even stern correction.  We are better off with His stern correction

 if needed..but still need to know it is of the LOVE RELATIONSHIP. 

Yes I agree. We have to know he loves us. I believe that wrath of God is misunderstood. I actually think that the parable of the prodigal son represents the "wrath of God," even though the father clearly loved his Son, he allowed him to go through a very painful transition into repentance while still considering him a son. He even gave his son all the means necessary to do what he did, because he knew what would happen in the end, which is why he waited at the gate.

When I read Romans 1, about the wrath of God, I see the prodigal son in it, the attitude is still about love. I think that is why Jesus gave us that parable, so that we can understand that his judgments are always connected with love.

Unfortunately, the church has done so much to strangle and beat down the concept of how love and even wrath fits together with God that I think we are all still a bit traumatized by it.

Love never fails. Sometimes it doesn't always feel good (Lord knows my daughter would say that she doesn't even think I love her sometimes, which I know she'll understand is wrong when she grows up to have her own kids). But yes, Love NEVER fails.

[sheila]

 :girlheart:   a little love goes a long way... :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

James, I was thinking more about the example you provided with the struggling believer, and I wanted to get your opinion. I believe there are matters of degrees. There are things that are sinful that really hurt yourself (which you still need to be saved from) but not necessarily others. For example, drug use etc.

Then there are things that hurt others. So, if a believer is struggling with alcohol or pornography that's one thing. He goes to God and confesses and prays. He remains humble about it, and understands what he needs.

Say there is another believer, who is obsessed with murdering children. He believes in Jesus but just can't help himself from kidnapping and murdering little girls by beating them to death. He confesses his sin, but then he does it again, and again.

Remember how much leeway God gave to King Ahab? Prophet after prophet. Warning after warning. Pretty soon, enough was enough. God cannot be mocked.

Peter, in 2 Peter 2, he talks about "natural brute beasts" who are fit for destruction and he says it would have been better had they not known the ways of righteousness, than to know them and become again entangled because they end up being worse than before. The very term "natural brute beasts" is enough to distinguish between someone dealing with a self-harming sin, and someone who hurts other people continually. He's not talking about the well intended believer, he is talking about those who he literally compares to animals, brute beasts.

If someone so much as continually insults people on this forum, you ban him. Is that good enough for us, but not good enough for God? Are you doing something wrong by banning him, cutting him off? It didn't take more than a man sleeping with his father's wife for Paul to do it.

I personally believe a man, whether he believes in Jesus or not, but continually beats little girls to death will face the wrath of God and for his own good. He may be a son of God because of his belief, and It's not that his sins will not be forgiven, but he'll need a big time reality check to save him from what he is doing to little girls, especially if he thinks his belief alone will be enough to hide from the Lord. True repentance should follow with actions. And eventually, I believe, for certain folks enough will be enough.

One might say, well someone who beats little girls to death isn't really a son of God, or a believer. That, to me, is just as good as saying that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only, works in this case being the CEASING of murdering children, not that you have to be Mother Theresa to "get into heaven."

It's not about that. It's about true repentance and fruit following from sincere faith and love. I know people might disagree with me about all this, but it doesn't mean I don't think God loves the people he judges.

[Seth]

Also I want to add, it's not for ME to judge specific individuals about that. I just believe there are generalities we can understand from the Bible about it.

[eaglesway]

I have two things that you have expressed that I either do not understand what you are saying- or you are saying what I think you are and I absolutley disagree.

1) You said that nobody knows who they are earlier in the thread. When I responded that I know I am a child of God your response was that you think that is claiming a crown before the race is won. When I responded about being saved and being assured of it, you responded, and I am paraphrasing from memory- well, you can do that if you want but make your calling and election sure.

My response to that is that "the horse" is that I know that I am a child of God by reconciliation which is a gift that creates a connection and a new creation, and I know it.Every believer should know it, and be taught it. We can know it by the Spirit of adoption- without any doubt whatsoever. The race is "the cart".

It is this very confidence in God's love for me as a child that encourages and strengthens me to endure the race.

The second thing is your explanation about Eph 2:8-10

As I understood your response you said Paul was speaking to people who were trying to be justified by law works.

This is incorrect. There is NO discourse about law to the Ephesians. They were not being troubled by law. This was a predominantly Gentile church, in excellent shape. Overcoming. Maturing.

Pauls instructions to the Ephesians were all about moving into the mature man, filled up to all the fulness of God.

Eph 2:8-10 is a clear bottomline definiton of salvation- the how and why.

How-by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

Why- created for good works that God prepared from the foundation of the world for us to walk in.

He spends the rest of the epistle explaining what that new creation ought to look like in the Spirit.

This is where there is only one gospel- as Paul said to the Corinthians, "Neither circumscision nor unscircumsion is anything- but a new creation". and to the Galatians "Neither circumscision or uncircumscision is anything, but a new creation".

The works James was talking about were "faith working through love" - recognizing and ministering to one anothers needs, not seeking self and pursuing wealth, and I fully agree with the statement, Faith without works is dead.

However- the place where we differentiate between works of the law and the works of which James defined and Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2, is at the source - there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk according to the spirit and nt according to the flesh. We are assured that we are children of God by grace, and are provided the Spirit by grace through faith.

Eph 2:8-10 is the greatest explanation of how we get "in Christ" and there is no moderation needed for the promise of those verses- they cover grace, faith and works -clearly and thoroughly.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

If there is no change of heart, if there is no returning to God, if there is no love and fruit and deeds that spring forth from the love of God- then there has been no connection, but...

The other great explanation of how we get "in Christ" is in Romans 10

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto Him as righteousness. His believing guided His works. Ours will too. The key is in the strength of the believing, not in the determination to do works. The believing produces righteousness- both imputed and imparted.

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin........................

............And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

An unbelieving heart is at the root of disobedience. The writer of Hebrews states that they were disobedient. He specifies unbelief as the root cause of their disobedience. He warns us not to have an evil unbelieving heart.

Faith, which works by love(Gal 5:6), always produces thoughts and deeds from the Spirit from which it draws, that spirit of grace in which we stand.

So even falling away is an issue of believing over works. Evil works are just the fruit of unbelief, the hardening of the heart that comes from the deceitfulness of sin, and the love of this present world over the kingdom of God.

[Aerex]

I apologize for not responding sooner. I had to reflect on what you guys said and I didn't want to rant about how I was feeling without considering what you guys said. I do appreciate it and I know that what I struggle with many are struggling with as well. I just don't understand after all these years (6-7) I have not changed who I am. I still struggle with sins since my childhood (mainly sexual immorality). I thought that God might change me over the years but nothing has happened. There has been periods of my life that I just simply give up. I am just not cut out to be a child of God. It would have been better if I am was ignorant of the truth now I am always ashamed.

Rosered I know you ask me why I am came to this site and the main reason is because in my heart I could not believe that God would send people to hell. I know I deserve hell but I hoped that God would loving and powerful enough to save everyone even Satan. It was my dream and I never voiced it out because I thought it was sacrilegious, blasphemous, and too hopeful. I was greatly surprised that there were people around the world who believed the same things. I was equally surprised that the translations of the Word of God have been corrupted sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally. I always though that the Word of God was incorruptible especially the translations. I figured that God in His wisdom would keep it that way. I guess I was wrong. Now I am at the crosswords not knowing what to do. I certainly don't have the power to make the right decisions at every moment of my life and I don't know if God will be the one making the choices for me. I know I am supposed to do what God says but if I am honest with myself I don't think I want do do what God says. I don't want to make conflict with anyone and most part I just want to be left alone so I avoid any conflict. I am hoping that this site will help me with my issues in someway and I thank you all for having the patience to tolerate me.

[Seth]

1) You said that nobody knows who they are earlier in the thread. When I responded that I know I am a child of God your response was that you think that is claiming a crown before the race is won. When I responded about being saved and being assured of it, you responded, and I am paraphrasing from memory- well, you can do that if you want but make your calling and election sure.

My response to that is that "the horse" is that I know that I am a child of God by reconciliation which is a gift that creates a connection and a new creation, and I know it.Every believer should know it, and be taught it. We can know it by the Spirit of adoption- without any doubt whatsoever. The race is "the cart".

When you said:

"The reply being(agree quickly with thine adversary lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge deliver you to the bailiff), "I did do that and I do this, but I confess this before Him, He forgives me, and I will overcome by His grace."(If we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness)"

That is where I agreed. IF....we confess our sins. Not just IF we believe in Jesus, and that's that.

The second thing is your explanation about Eph 2:8-10

As I understood your response you said Paul was speaking to people who were trying to be justified by law works.

This is incorrect. There is NO discourse about law to the Ephesians. They were not being troubled by law. This was a predominantly Gentile church, in excellent shape. Overcoming. Maturing.

Eaglesway, it can be pretty frustrating talking about this with you because I already said that I was comparing, not to Ephesians 2, but to ROMANS 4. Did you see me say that? I clarified that later and you are STILL bringing it up. I feel like you are not really reading my posts.

In Romans 4 he is talking about justification apart from works OF THE LAW.

In ROMANS 4, Paul is talking about works of the Law.

In JAMES 2, he is not talking about being justified by works of the Law. In James 2, he is talking about how faith without works dies when people are GREEDY. He's saying stop being greedy, because faith alone won't save you from that if you don't eventually take action against being greedy.

Pauls instructions to the Ephesians were all about moving into the mature man, filled up to all the fulness of God.

Eph 2:8-10 is a clear bottomline definiton of salvation- the how and why.

How-by grace through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God.

YES I AGREE

Grace through faith saves us from sin because GRACE CHASTENS US TO ABANDON UNGODLINESS. And that abandoning (verb) is what saves us from slavery IN sin. Without the abandoning, there won't be complete salvation from sin.

So, in Ephesians 2 he says that we FORMERLY walked in the ways of the world because we were joined to Christ (by grace you have been saved).

Saved from what? WALKING in the ways of the world, because we receive the Spirit. Not just believing in Jesus ALONE.

[Seth]

Eaglesway,
This whole thing about Ephesians 2 and Romans 4 started on page 13, reply 308, where I said:

That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.

I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."

THEREFORE:

This statement:

"by works a man is justified and not by faith alone"

does not contradict with this statement:

"by works of the Law shall no man be justified"

BECAUSE those two sentences are talking about different things. Paul is talking about salvation apart from works of the LAW, which I agree with. I believe we are saved from sin by being joined together with Christ by the Spirit, not the Law. James is talking about salvation from GREED by loving in deed and truth, not just in word and tongue.

[eaglesway]

I completely disagree that Eph 2:8-10 is about salvation from works of the law, or is any extension of Romans 4. It is a general staement about all salvation. So we will just agree to disagree.

[Seth]

I completely disagree that Eph 2:8-10 is about salvation from works of the law, or is any extension of Romans 4. It is a general staement about all salvation. So we will just agree to disagree.

I NEVER SAID THAT IT WAS.

I never even mentioned Ephesians 2. I said that Ephesians 2 is about SALVATION FROM SIN, not salvation from works of the LAW.

James 2 is about salvation from sin. ROMANS 4 is about salvation apart from the Law. They don't contradict

[eaglesway]

That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.

I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."

I was not speaking of James contradicting Paul anywhere. I was speaking of you contradicting Paul in your intepretation and application of James words.

[Seth]

That's right, and that is why the sentence "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" does not contradict anything Paul said, because Paul was talking about works of the Law, and James was not.

I was referring to Romans 4, when Paul said "by works of the Law shall no man be justified."

I was not speaking of James contradicting Paul anywhere. I was speaking of you contradicting Paul in your intepretation and application of James words.

Show me where

[Seth]

If anyone thinks that I was comparing Ephesians 2 to James 2 when I said that Paul was talking about justification apart from the Law and James was not, show me where. I was comparing ROMANS 4 to JAMES 2 and how they don't contradict.

ROMANS 4 was talking about justification apart from the Law.

JAMES 2 is not talking about justification BY the Law, therefore they don't contradict.

My statement is as simple as that.

[rosered]

I apologize for not responding sooner. I had to reflect on what you guys said and I didn't want to rant about how I was feeling without considering what you guys said. I do appreciate it and I know that what I struggle with many are struggling with as well. I just don't understand after all these years (6-7) I have not changed who I am. I still struggle with sins since my childhood (mainly sexual immorality). I thought that God might change me over the years but nothing has happened. There has been periods of my life that I just simply give up. I am just not cut out to be a child of God. It would have been better if I am was ignorant of the truth now I am always ashamed.

Rosered I know you ask me why I am came to this site and the main reason is because in my heart I could not believe that God would send people to hell. I know I deserve hell but I hoped that God would loving and powerful enough to save everyone even Satan. It was my dream and I never voiced it out because I thought it was sacrilegious, blasphemous, and too hopeful. I was greatly surprised that there were people around the world who believed the same things. I was equally surprised that the translations of the Word of God have been corrupted sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally. I always though that the Word of God was incorruptible especially the translations. I figured that God in His wisdom would keep it that way. I guess I was wrong. Now I am at the crosswords not knowing what to do. I certainly don't have the power to make the right decisions at every moment of my life and I don't know if God will be the one making the choices for me. I know I am supposed to do what God says but if I am honest with myself I don't think I want do do what God says. I don't want to make conflict with anyone and most part I just want to be left alone so I avoid any conflict. I am hoping that this site will help me with my issues in someway and I thank you all for having the patience to tolerate me.

Dear   Aerex,

Please forgive me for not  being able to help you ...

God knows ..........

You are so young and  way to hard on yourself  ,
I know God loves you   so very much   and he will never give up on you ..

I was exactly where you were at  in my twenties  and I prayed and  failed   and  guilty also of sexual immorality

I hated it  , yet I could not stop it  either ..

  Those were some awful times  and experiences  :CryBaby:

But dont give up , God knows if your trying  and He looks at our hearts   
  They matter the most

   Remember the one forgiven of much ,  loves much       
God is waiting patiently  for you to come to HIM   in a surrender of all   and how many times it takes

Your convictions   as troubling as they may be at this time , are for your benefit   because you are loved

I hope  you will  know this  one day   and  that  all the doubts   are removed .........

When we turn to the Lord  Jesus Christ  for our help   and pleas  , He will not fail you ..

I know that seems  hard to believe  right now  , but  the more you   ask  Him  and seeking Him , He will come to you  .. believe me  many of us can  claim   this as truth .

Your dream  ?   
  God has poured out His Holy Spirit  ,  believing  in the Lord is a great start  in  you   and     the Lord has done this....... He is there for you    and we all here are  for you to ...
Joel   ........   Gods promise  done in Christ .
Then it will come about at a later time that I will pour out my Spirit on every person.

Your sons and your daughters will prophesy. Your elderly people will dream dreams, and your young people will see visions.

I am one whom is glad you are here   Aerex    ... :HeartThrob:    prayers

[jabcat]

Good reply rosie.  I wanted to answer Aerex, but felt sort of unsure of what to say.  It was "your turn" and  you answered the bell.  :)

[Seth]

 :dsunny:

[Seth]

If someone is going to make a statement about what another person believes but not back it up, that person shouldn't make the statement. If I ever said anything about Ephesians 2 being about salvation from the Law, please show me where, or don't say it. Don't just drop it on a guy and then check out. Back up what you say.

Start at page 13 reply 308 and show me anywhere where I said that Ephesians 2 was about salvation from works of the Law or that it was an extension of Romans 4.

[rosered]

 
  Dear Seth I do not believe anyone wants to be evil on purpose .

      I believe after we come to Christ we are  in the battle of our lives  , between  to natures
one of heaven and the other of earth      , this is where   many of us stumble and fall and fail   
  I do believe God does  turn one over to the destruction of the flesh  nature   for in the DAY OF THE LORD they shall be saved   

    How   ever long it takes or often   , until one is so sin sick and lost they have nothing  to give  up , but surrender  ,  than can God actually  have  use   for them   

The animal nature   just as it started    has an end   ..
  We see this in the natural on a daily basis     
  beast natures    for the most part are fear driven or     fierce   and forced  upon  the weaker  natured

I have seen literal attacks     come from  temperamental      dogs  , they have no control over it ,  they are   actually driven by it   
  I see the evil natured   no different    , they  either get old or  sick or literally die   fighting      before that end comes .

   For me this is the sickness unto death that we are told not to pray for  that 

and it might be better if they did , there is torment in fear  driven beasts  and the carnal mind is a death sentence

I may be off  in thinking   but after  reading   above    on your post     ,,,   I want evil to end    , I can hardly wait till  we never ever have to deal with it again !!!

   This is my joy to know that it will end   for everyone   who suffers with it or because of it       :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

Good reply rosie.  I wanted to answer Aerex, but felt sort of unsure of what to say.  It was "your turn" and  you answered the bell.  :)

  He mentioned me by name      James  , I   love that young man    , we want what is best for him  and  glad he can speak openly   what is bothering him

  I wanted him to know he is never alone  , many can relate  to his  experiences   and God is Love  and love is an action word  :HeartThrob:

  We can all get in the wrong , but the thing is not to stay in the wrong ...
I know forgiveness is one of the most beautiful   attributes     of Jesus Christ   message   to us all

  If He forgives us  of any wrong   doing  we should all   be willing  to   forgive one another   that is the least we can do  , to show Him we love  Him back     .

[Seth]

  Dear Seth I do not believe anyone wants to be evil on purpose .

      I believe after we come to Christ we are  in the battle of our lives  , between  to natures
one of heaven and the other of earth      , this is where   many of us stumble and fall and fail   
  I do believe God does  turn one over to the destruction of the flesh  nature   for in the DAY OF THE LORD they shall be saved   

    How   ever long it takes or often   , until one is so sin sick and lost they have nothing  to give  up , but surrender  ,  than can God actually  have  use   for them   

The animal nature   just as it started    has an end   ..
  We see this in the natural on a daily basis     
  beast natures    for the most part are fear driven or     fierce   and forced  upon  the weaker  natured

I have seen literal attacks     come from  temperamental      dogs  , they have no control over it ,  they are   actually driven by it   
  I see the evil natured   no different    , they  either get old or  sick or literally die   fighting      before that end comes .

   For me this is the sickness unto death that we are told not to pray for  that 

and it might be better if they did , there is torment in fear  driven beasts  and the carnal mind is a death sentence

I may be off  in thinking   but after  reading   above    on your post     ,,,   I want evil to end    , I can hardly wait till  we never ever have to deal with it again !!!

   This is my joy to know that it will end   for everyone   who suffers with it or because of it       :HeartThrob:

:iagree: :HeartThrob:

[gregoryfl]

Thank you so much Rose for your faithfulness in addressing for Aerex what is truly important.  :HeartThrob: You have such an exceptionally tender heart toward others.

Aerex, as Rose said, you are certainly not alone. I share much in common with you, even to the point of having tantrums of hate toward my Father and being suicidal, which has really affected my wife and young son.

I speak to you as one who is still currently in a furious struggle with all of this. I honestly believe that the fact that you have a struggle yourself shows me without doubt that there is life out of the death you are experiencing. You are speaking life, and I am speaking life, even though it seems far from it.

Think about it, does a person who is truly dead struggle to move? Your Father is not reacting to you. He is the very cause of how he is choosing to form his Son in you, and you are making choices in that process. Even in those times we deny him, he remains faithful. We are woven into the fabric of his very being in the person and body of Yeshua. How can he deny himself?

Certainly no easy answers, and not the answer we both want, which is "God, just change me right now so I don't have to struggle with my crap!" Oh, how often I have yelled that in his face. I think we all will be so amazed when we finally see on the other side of this physicality just how intimate he was with us in our darkest moments.

Ronen