Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[jabcat]

I believe if you take away the hell thing, the salvation process is the same.  Believing and receiving His free gift makes us His child, forever (already saved).  Then (unless our growth is stunted at this point) His works in us make us progressively into His likeness through obedience, surrender, growth, some call it sanctification (still being saved/healed).   Then Paul says we attain full salvation, "to wit, the redemption of our bodies".    Pardon me for bringing it up again   :laugh2:, but that's why I see it in 3 stages.  Done (when given faith to receive Him), being done (as it's walked out), will be done (when we receive immortality/full redemption).  Over and out.   :dsunny:   :Peace2:

[Seth]

I believe if you take away the hell thing, the salvation process is the same. 

The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?

To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.

To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.

To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.

Common sense!

And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.

Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.

[jabcat]

We still see it from a little different angle.

Saved - made child of God instead of child of the devil.

Continue being saved (healed) - growing in grace and knowledge, dying to the flesh (carnality).

Will be saved - total redemption per His plan for us.


I see distinctions between initial salvation/what makes us His child forever,  and  what works do and are for.

One is a totally free gift, seals us as His.  Done upon receipt.        The other is a gift through His works in us.  Sometimes painful, sometimes a struggle.  But not what makes or keeps us as His child.  That's done through initially receiving Him.  (Jn. 1:12)

[Seth]

Continue being saved - growing in grace and knowledge, dying to the flesh (carnality). = James 2

And that, according to him is how faith becomes COMPLETED. Meaning, that's the point of faith to reach the endpoint is which deliverance. Without it, faith is dead because the whole point (salvation/healing/deliverance0 is missed.

It's the doctrine of hell that confuses the issue.

To be saved from wrathfulness, stop being wrathful = common sense

To be saved from hell, stop being hell = what?

One is a totally free gift, seals us as His.  Done upon receipt.        The other is a gift through His works in us. 

I haven't said anything remotely contrary to that. It's all a gift.

For he has predestined us only to believe? No, also to be conformed to the image of Christ. That is why Peter says "make your calling and election sure." And that is why Paul tells us to examine ourselves, and alot of other things.

It's not a question of eventual salvation, or status of not being a child of God. A child of the father in the prodigal son was turned over to work in a pig pen.

It's a question of being saved/healed from out of our own destruction, or saved/healed through continued growth. I see it as a matter of, take your pick, not as a matter of the label of being a child of God. God will judge his children pretty harshly, and he isn't going to just look at faith or absence of faith as the criteria for how he will do that. The farmer looks for fruit to determine the quality of the tree.

[Seth]

Do you know that when Paul says that the Kingdom of God "is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" that the word righteousness is the SAME word for justification?

Paul also says that some people who serve evil will not inherit the kingdom of God. They will not inherit peace and joy, sure, but they will not inherit righteousness either.

So I'll just say it again,

A man is justified /righteous by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, not just Seth)

[Seth]

Was Rahab justified by works when she gave quarter to the Jewish spies? Apostle James thought so. You could say, well she was also justified before that too because she believed. OK, but if she failed to give quarter to the spies, and didn't follow their instructions about the red cord, she'd be a justified, dead woman. So how far would her faith alone taken her to being saved from the coming judgment upon Jericho? I think James was teaching from a point of practicality in James 2.

[ed]

So I'll just say it again,

A man is justified /righteous by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:24, not just Seth)

Have you ever seen he movie Fight Club?

:laugh:

Sorry Seth, I think you  have a good handle on it.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.

I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.

No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.

Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:

[Seth]

Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.

I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.

No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.

Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:

I totally agree about the cart and the horse. Faith first, then works. No disagreement.

About the Ephesians verse, I explained how it fits together with the James 2 verses. And I believe what I presented balances pretty well. I think they all fit together. My point about James 2:24 is that most Christians won't phrase it that way or even literally SAY the verse. It's like they're ashamed to say it.

[eaglesway]

I doubt there is any fundamental disagreement in whether or not we are saved FOR good works. YES, we are saved FOR good works. HOWEVER, I'm sorry to insist on the phraseology that an Apostle uses, "a man is justified/righteous by works and not by faith alone." If those works DON'T FOLLOW, then salvation from former darkness will not be COMPLETED. As John said: do not be deceived, those who do righteousness are righteous even as God is righteous.

Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. Choosing NOT to continue being a slave to darkness is no doubt inspired by the Holy Spirit. But without that action, one will remain unsaved/unhealed/undelivered from darkness. That's common sense.

It's just as Hebrews 10 says what happens if we sin willfully after coming to full knowledge of the truth. I believe Peter is CLEAR in 2 Peter 2 that if we return to "our vomit" we become worse off then when we started. THAT is what I believe James 2 is talking about, not initial salvation.

Verbs mean work. If we sin and go to God to confess, that is a verb. Confess is a verb. Go is a verb. It's what you do as a response to belief. If you sin and DON'T do those things...God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.

I'd say a difference between us is that I will actually use the phraseology Apostle James uses, because I feel if it's good enough for an Apostle it's good enough for me. Nobody on this conversation will say "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Why? Who knows. You can't pretend James didn't say it, even if you have a difference of a opinion as to what he meant.

So the question is "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone"

Either that sentence is true or it is false. Or, you believe as the Concordant theology teaches, that's it's true but just meant for someone else.

Is that the question because you are saying it is or is it really the question- because I have to ask what you do with Eph 2:14 in that light.

Another apostle said the opposite- by your view, but not by my view- because as jabcat and I bith said earlier, there is initial salvation and continuing salvation(abiding, sanctification).

Was James contradicting Paul? I should hope not, then the scriptures are broken.

Where do these two sayings integrate? Simple. Paul is speaking of intitial salvation, James is speaking of continuing salvation, maturing. discipleship.

Salvation is complete when you are attached to the vine. "He that believes in me has passed from death unto life." Salvation is assured if one abides- maintains the connection to the Vine. If one is connected THEY WILL BEAR FRUIT.

There are a number of verses that speak of the assurance of salvation for the believer- one I like in particular is also in Ephesians.

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1

A pledge is a down-payment guaranteeing the purchase as a possession. paul says "you were sealed in Him". You in Him, Him in you- that is Christ in you the hope of glory.

I knw that believing includes fruit and works- that is simple enough to see. At issue here is being, getting, saved. This is not by works- it is by grace through faith that we are created in Christ Jesus for good works.

You can try to keep the conversation on the ground of one verse that suits a particular view- but the scriptures of the apostles have more to say on the matter than that.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

1 Corinthians 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I have been saved. I am assurred. I have a new and living way within the veil. I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. I have received a deposit guaranteeing the final possession. I am a child of God. I am a brother to Jesus. All of this was given to me in the incorruptible seed which is generating the love and the works that testify to my faith before God.

What James was saying, essentially was, "If you are Christians act like it!" Even as Paul told the Corinthians (1 Cor ch 2&3)that they were babes in Christ, born of God but walking like natural men.

If James is not read as a letter. If a person focuses on  one verse out of the whole, they cannot see this.

[eaglesway]

Its important to keep the horse before the cart. Believing is the horse. Works are the cart.

I could just go on saying, over and over, "By grace you are saved through faith not of works lest anyman should boast." but that would not be correct, in presenting a balanced view of the subject as discussed to this point.

No one verse can be taken alone out of context and tell the whole story.

Done, being done, will be done, done- going, going, gone :laughing7:

I totally agree about the cart and the horse. Faith first, then works. No disagreement.

About the Ephesians verse, I explained how it fits together with the James 2 verses. And I believe what I presented balances pretty well. I think they all fit together. My point about James 2:24 is that most Christians won't phrase it that way or even literally SAY the verse. It's like they're ashamed to say it.

I am not ashamed to say it, but I clearly have a different understanding of it than you do. At least we agree that grace comes first LOL

[eaglesway]

There is a real danger that our faith can become dead. I agree with that entirely. I am focusing soley of initial salvation, and understanding that even as we continue to grow, it is the grace connection that produces the works and keeps faith alive.

For instance, Paul says, "As you received the Spirit, so also walk you in it."

How did we receive the Spirit? By hearing with faith.

Justified also means vindicated, acknowledged as righteous.

I believe that living faith always produces good fruit and good works- and living faith is an abiding love connection to Jesus.

Ok, this may seem like a fine line, but it is an important one.

James was not saying- "You must do works to be saved"

He was saying, "If your faith is alive your works will testify to it."

[Seth]

Is that the question because you are saying it is or is it really the question- because I have to ask what you do with Eph 2:14 in that light.

I explained that at the bottom of this reply

Another apostle said the opposite- by your view, but not by my view- because as jabcat and I bith said earlier, there is initial salvation and continuing salvation(abiding, sanctification).

Nope, it's not the opposite by my view. They both reconcile. I believe I have spoken to you about the initial salvation, and that James 2 is not speaking about initial salvation. I'm not sure if you actually are reading my replies.

Was James contradicting Paul? I should hope not, then the scriptures are broken.

Agreed.

Where do these two sayings integrate? Simple. Paul is speaking of intitial salvation, James is speaking of continuing salvation, maturing. discipleship.

I have no problem with that. Except that I would say that James is speaking of completed salvation, or faith being made complete by works, and not dying. Even the demons believe and they tremble.

There are a number of verses that speak of the assurance of salvation for the believer- one I like in particular is also in Ephesians.

There is not a single verse that says that God will not harshly judge his own children if they walk in disobedience. And, according to Paul they will meet with "wrath and indignation" and "trouble and distress"

Just like the prodigal son met with trouble and distress even though he was still the son of his father. Nobody will be saved from destruction by faith alone because God cannot be mocked. Take a look at Hebrews 10

You can try to keep the conversation on the ground of one verse that suits a particular view- but the scriptures of the apostles have more to say on the matter than that.

If you have actually been reading my replies, you would know that I am not building the conversation on one verse. That is ridiculous. I have been repeating a verse that is true, but that doesn't mean I have been RESTRICTING my beliefs to that verse.

I have been saved. I am assurred. I have a new and living way within the veil. I am seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. I have received a deposit guaranteeing the final possession. I am a child of God. I am a brother to Jesus. All of this was given to me in the incorruptible seed which is generating the love and the works that testify to my faith before God.

That's great! Just make sure you don't find yourself in a pig pen like the prodigal son who wasted his inheritance. Then, you might need to be saved from trouble and distress, and a pig pen.

[Seth]

There is a real danger that our faith can become dead. I agree with that entirely. I am focusing soley of initial salvation, and understanding that even as we continue to grow, it is the grace connection that produces the works and keeps faith alive.

For instance, Paul says, "As you received the Spirit, so also walk you in it."

How did we receive the Spirit? By hearing with faith.

Justified also means vindicated, acknowledged as righteous.

I believe that living faith always produces good fruit and good works- and living faith is an abiding love connection to Jesus.

Ok, this may seem like a fine line, but it is an important one.

James was not saying- "You must do works to be saved"

He was saying, "If your faith is alive your works will testify to it."

Justified means acknowledged as righteous. I agree. Take a look:

1 John 3
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

So yeah, "by works a man is righteous and not by faith only."

James did teach that works save (just not the initial salvation), THE CONTINUING SALVATION.

How can you say that James didn't teach that works save, but then acknowledge that he WAS teaching continuing salvation? By what other means did James think Rahab was justified? Faith alone? No, he says she was justified (righteous) when she gave quarter to the Jewish spies.

[eaglesway]

I was simply saying that James is not speaking about initial salvation....getting saved, which I have said about 6 times :o)

He was speaking of works as the evidence of a living faith, which I believe in, which Jesus also taught. The works spring from faith, which is a gift of God's grace, unmerited, freely distributed to all who believe.

[Seth]

I was simply saying that James is not speaking about initial salvation....getting saved, which I have said about 6 times :o)

When did I disagree with that?

He was speaking of works as the evidence of a living faith, which I believe in, which Jesus also taught. The works spring from faith, which is a gift of God's grace, unmerited, freely distributed to all who believe.

Again, I have no disagreement that works spring from faith. But, remember,

2 Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[Seth]

If it's a question about assurance of salvation, I believe everyone will be saved. Even those who don't believe right now.

[eaglesway]

The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?

To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.

To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.

To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.

Common sense!

And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.

Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.

You just have it backwards. To be saved from disobedience we must receive forgiveness and a change of heart(new creation). Receiving grace through repentence and confession(transparency with God, humility) is the only way to "stop" anything someone is stuck "doing". Once that happens the fruit and the works follow naturally.


To stop being greedy we must open up to the love of God.

We cannot "stop being" anything until we are a new creation, which is the free gift of God in Jesus Christ.

Those who "do such things" have lost the connection, if they once had it, or they never had it. The answer is not just to "stop doing this".

That is the law.

The answer is to draw near to God, as James prescribes. Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded, Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."

Connectedness.

Your emphasis is off. It sounds legalistic, and on other occasions you have disagreed that we are already children of God and can rest in it- which is what assurance of salvation is all about, not the assurance that someday all will be saved, which we all already know.

"This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "Only in returning to me and resting in me will you be saved. In quietness and confidence is your strength. But you would have none of it." Isaiah 30:15

That is the answer to greed and falling away. Returning and rest. "Labor diligently to enter His rest". "Cease from your own works as God ceased from His" "exhort one another to love and good works" ......ALL THESE VERSES TELL THE REST OF THE STORY.


A believer needs to be established in grace ABOVE ALL, in the spirit of reconciliation. Then the works will follow. Believers who have been seduced back into the world need to be warned, all the apostles give that warning- but not at the expense of the core message, which is faith and the supply of grace through the Spirit to all who continue believing.

SETH: There's a difference between claiming and being. I don't think struggling with something automatically means a person is or is not a child of God. I leave it to God to decide, but the Bible does contain some pretty clear teaching on it. According to Romans 8, nobody knows who they are, and Peter said to make our calling and election sure, I believe for that reason.

You see, I agree that we need to make our calling and election sure- but I totally disagree that nobody knows who they are or that Romans 8 even says that..... To me that is going to far and some kind of legalism showing thru.

Romans 8 says we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Daddy! "Father!"

I have actually said as much about the importance of Christian works, the need for them, and that we are created for them as anyone on the forum- but you seem to have a bone to pick, - so you keep implying that somehow I am not hearing James- but I do, and I echoe him, and I have quoted him in this thread. But I dont see it the way you do, and the more you press this point the more I see we disagree substantially in spirit and really- I dont think anything else positive can come out of this discussion- it has all been said.

[Dandelion]

This is what I learned in one of my Deacon classes, when there was still some vestiges of my 'Works Mentality', as I called it.

The arrow points up,^ when it is about Works. The arrow points down, v, when it is about Faith and Grace.

In other words, when we believe that WORKS - that we do of our own volition -  saves, then we see our relationship to God as us needing to 'send' our efforts UP to God.  In a nutshell, 'keep trying'.

When we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.

I will never forget the evening, Pastor explained this to us. It made it so clear to me......so simple, yet so helpful.

I was raised on the Works model......I had to do everything myself.........once, when I asked my Mom to pray about something, she told me, "God doesn't do that, you have to do that on your own." Now I say, Oy Vey!

Then, I just kept trying to work harder......spinning my tail; wearing myself out; feeling inadequate. Now, I know who I am....in Christ.....and in Him, I am transformed, able to face whatever comes my way, with the Ruler of the Universe leading me, guiding me, loving me.

It doesn't make sense, in an earthly way. It defies common sense and logic.

I was blessed to have wonderful, helpful people sent into my life, who helped lay the groundwork for me to make the complete transfer years later.

I hope this is helpful to someone out there.    :2c:

[Seth]

The process is the same but the thing we are saved from is not the same. Right?

To be saved from disobedience (Titus 3) we must be....obedient.

To be saved from slavery to greed, we must stop being greedy.

To be saved from wrathfulness, we must stop being wrathful.

Common sense!

And, again, according to Apostle James (not just Seth), faith WITHOUT works is dead, being alone. Why? Because the point of faith is unto deliverance.

Paul was clear that those who "do such things" shall not inherit the kingdom of God, which is RIGHTEOUSNESS, peace and joy in the holy Spirit.

You just have it backwards. To be saved from disobedience we must receive forgiveness and a change of heart(new creation). Receiving grace through repentence and confession(transparency with God, humility) is the only way to "stop" anything someone is stuck "doing". Once that happens the fruit and the works follow naturally.


To stop being greedy we must open up to the love of God.

We cannot "stop being" anything until we are a new creation, which is the free gift of God in Jesus Christ.

Those who "do such things" have lost the connection, if they once had it, or they never had it. The answer is not just to "stop doing this".

That is the law.

The answer is to draw near to God, as James prescribes. Cleanse your hands you sinners, purify your hearts you double minded, Draw near to God and He will draw near to you."

Connectedness.

Your emphasis is off. It sounds legalistic, and on other occasions you have disagreed that we are already children of God and can rest in it- which is what assurance of salvation is all about, not the assurance that someday all will be saved, which we all already know.

"This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: "Only in returning to me and resting in me will you be saved. In quietness and confidence is your strength. But you would have none of it." Isaiah 30:15

That is the answer to greed and falling away. Returning and rest. "Labor diligently to enter His rest". "Cease from your own works as God ceased from His" "exhort one another to love and good works" ......ALL THESE VERSES TELL THE REST OF THE STORY.


A believer needs to be established in grace ABOVE ALL, in the spirit of reconciliation. Then the works will follow. Believers who have been seduced back into the world need to be warned, all the apostles give that warning- but not at the expense of the core message, which is faith and the supply of grace through the Spirit to all who continue believing.

SETH: There's a difference between claiming and being. I don't think struggling with something automatically means a person is or is not a child of God. I leave it to God to decide, but the Bible does contain some pretty clear teaching on it. According to Romans 8, nobody knows who they are, and Peter said to make our calling and election sure, I believe for that reason.

You see, I agree that we need to make our calling and election sure- but I totally disagree that nobody knows who they are or that Romans 8 even says that..... To me that is going to far and some kind of legalism showing thru.

Romans 8 says we have the spirit of adoption whereby we cry "Daddy! "Father!"

I have actually said as much about the importance of Christian works, the need for them, and that we are created for them as anyone on the forum- but you seem to have a bone to pick, - so you keep implying that somehow I am not hearing James- but I do, and I echoe him, and I have quoted him in this thread. But I dont see it the way you do, and the more you press this point the more I see we disagree substantially in spirit and really- I dont think anything else positive can come out of this discussion- it has all been said.

John, it seems that you have not been fully reading my posts by the above response, because you seem to think I have not been speaking about connectedness leading to works.

So I will keep it simple.

The order is this: believe in Jesus, recieve the Spirit, walk by the Spirit. As Paul said, if you walk by the Spirit you shall not gratify the desires of the flesh.

Therefore, to be saved from wrathfullness, walk by the Spirit, which will cause you to not be wrathful. Thus you will have been saved from wrathfulness. And as Peter said, having escaped the pollution so of the world, do not become again entangled, it is better that you had not known the ways of righteousness.

Nothing about that disagrees with the need to be connected first.

[Seth]

BTW, I think we already had an agreement about the sons of God issue. Not sure why you are  bringing it back up to freshly disagree, when we already talked it out and had an agreement about it,

[Seth]

When we believe we are saved by GRACE, through FAITH, then the arrow points DOWN. God is the one who is continually sending his GRACE to us, which gives us our ability to do GOOD WORKS. He is our 'lifeline',our source, our strength, to do Good Works. Not ourselves. In a nutshell, He is the vine, we are the branches....... without Him, we can do NOTHING.

Hi Dandelion,

What I believe is that it's not us who are able to do good works, even if we have that realization, but that it's God who does the works through us. That's why there is no boasting in ourselves.

As I said in previous posts, Grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness (Titus 2:11). And Hebrews talks about how when God chastens us, we experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness thereby. It's all of God not of us.

The end goal, I believe, of faith is as Peter put it in 2 Peter 2, to "escape the pollution of the world." The way he speaks about it reveals that salvation/healing/deliverance is an dis-entanglement from pollution. That's what works have to do with salvation, becoming disentangled, and not returning.

That word "escape" reminds me of "delivered" or "saved."

We don't escape drowning just by believing the life vest is there, we must also put it on and not take it back off.

In the same way, we don't escape the pollution of the world by only believing Jesus exists, but ALSO by receiving the Spirit and walking by the Spirit.

[jabcat]

I believe in surrender and obedience, seeking with His help to do His will.  I also think about my (and mankind as a whole) failures, weaknesses, and yes, sins.  I also wonder about God's view, His wrath, etc.

Laying in bed it occurred to me;

(I'm not thinking about the person who denies their sin and tries to justify it (even militantly).)  So let's say a sincere believer just keeps doing the same things over and over, even against their will.  Their flesh is weak, they struggle against a sin, but it keeps cropping up.  Believer's heart is definitely bent toward God and has a desire to please him.  So believer goes to God, asking for deliverance and help overcoming.  God is either "silent", or maybe even says "no".  Believer keeps seeking, God finally says clearly "I let this in your life to keep you humble, to keep you looking to and trusting in me".  Believer is distraught, thinking he should be overcoming this.  Then God gently and sweetly says, "my grace is sufficient for you".   So believer then realizes, either now or later, God will ultimately completely deliver him - if not in this life, then when he stands before Him, in the renewal.

Does that believer look forward to wrath and punishment, or do they realize God knows their heart, God still sees them as His child through the lens of the blood of Jesus, and bestows grace (unmerited favor)?   Maybe some things to consider in this discussion.  Blessings.

[Seth]

I believe in surrender and obedience, seeking with His help to do His will.  I also think about my (and mankind as a whole) failures, weaknesses, and yes, sins.  I also wonder about God's view, His wrath, etc.

I do too. I think it's important to understand what that wrath is. In Romans 1, didn't Paul describe a certain kind of wrath that he executed on those who turned away from the truth? It wasn't about pummeling them with literal fire. It was simply turning them over to their own minds and receiving in themselves the penalty for their error. That reminds me so much of the prodigal SON.

So let's say a sincere believer just keeps doing the same things over and over, even against their will.  Their flesh is weak, they struggle against a sin, but it keeps cropping up.  Believer's heart is definitely bent toward God and has a desire to please him.  So believer goes to God, asking for deliverance and help overcoming.

James, would you agree that a work is what you DO in response to what you believe? The believer GOES (verb) to God asking (verb) for deliverance.

Faith without works means that going to God and asking for help is absent and the person becomes hard in heart and prideful.

God is either "silent", or maybe even says "no".  Believer keeps seeking

Seeking (verb)

God finally says clearly "I let this in your life to keep you humble, to keep you looking to and trusting in me".

In Romans 1, he does something similar. He turns them over to their own minds do to that which defiles them.

Believer is distraught, thinking he should be overcoming this.  Then God gently and sweetly says, "my grace is sufficient for you".   So believer then realizes, either now or later, God will ultimately completely deliver him - if not in this life, then when he stands before Him, in the renewal.

So, if the believer realizes that he will ULTIMATELY deliver him, that means he is not delivered now, right? We are using the word "delivered" in place of "saved." Even though they both mean the same thing.

Does that believer look forward to wrath and punishment, or do they realize God knows their heart, God still sees them as His child through the lens of the blood of Jesus, and bestows grace (unmerited favor)? 

The book of Hebrews says not to despise the chastening of God which may be unpleasant, but THAT is what will result in the peaceable fruit of righteousness.

[jabcat]

Not John lol.

I guess I had hoped you would (as do I need to) think about this a little more rather than have such a quick and "with-in the usual context" response.  But no, I don't believe Paul was "turned over to his own mind" to suffer the consequences.  I believe God's mercy and unmerited favor sustained Him and kept him exactly where God wanted him - safely resting in the arms of His Savior.  Knowing that just as God said, His grace was sufficient for him.  Even in his honest weaknesses.  The difference I tried to make clear is someone covering their sins vs. the person in obedience, confessing them and looking to Jesus - yet still being an imperfect human being in need of - and receiving God's approval and mercy- only through the blood of His Son applied.  That his "works" at that point were honesty, openness, and trusting Jesus as His Propitiation.

I probably don't have anything further to say right now.  I don't believe in ongoing endless debate.  Maybe someone else will have something new to say.  Have a blessed day.