question

[Seth]

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

Believing and obeying are the same thing.

Believe in Jesus and love your neighbor. Those are Christ's commandments. Gotta have both if you say you are obedient.

[sheila]

see that's just it Seth..to the jewish mindset;  neighbor is thought of in terms of whom you have associations

with.  the jews had no associations with the Samaritans...........[wouldn't even speak to them]

   the young man was really rich..had all kinds of material wealth he could have been relieving his fellowman

with[hungry/naked and ye clothed/fed me] etc.

      Jesus showed the lack of love in the rich man unto his fellowman's suffering.

[Seth]

see that's just it Seth..to the jewish mindset;  neighbor is thought of in terms of whom you have associations

with.  the jews had no associations with the Samaritans...........[wouldn't even speak to them]

   the young man was really rich..had all kinds of material wealth he could have been relieving his fellowman

with[hungry/naked and ye clothed/fed me] etc.

      Jesus showed the lack of love in the rich man unto his fellowman's suffering.

Yes, which to me represents the dividing wall coming down between Jew and Gentile through shared faith and love in Christ alone. That's how they become neighbors, even brothers and sisters with no actual genetic connection as Paul would later explain, not that faith is unnecessary.

[sheila]

but He is the Saviour of ALL men...specially those who believe......

[Seth]

It's crazy Sheila, to see you using parables to show that those good works were sufficient for the sheep on the right apparently without belief necessary, when you had this problem with me in another thread saying that works must follow belief, calling it "works based salvation." It's just amazing.

[Seth]

but He is the Saviour of ALL men...specially those who believe......

Yes, but each in their order. All rule and authority must be destroyed, including other gods and lack of faith. Nobody is saying that anyone will be excluded.

[sheila]

when my little grand-daughter said she was an atheist..and didn't believe in God[due to some horrific things]

   I told her...well,He most certainly does exist..and I'm not bothered by your unbelief at all. All it's

going to take is Him manifesting himself to you...and He can make a believer out of you in an instant.

....and then the people will hear,what they had not heard,and see what they had not seen.

[Seth]

I agree with what you said to her, but I think it's beside the point of the OP and the things that Holly is saying.

[Seth]

What I am getting from you Sheila is that faith is enough for believers without works, and works are enough for unbelievers without faith. That's an internal inconsistency to resolve, unless you can explain it.

Is it necessary for BELIEVERS to do the same things in the parable you referenced? If so, then what is your problem with "works based salvation" that you had in another thread?

[sheila]

re;  all rule an authority must be destroyed,including other gods and lack of faith........

   is it not written in your laws that ye are gods? I see a lot of 'churches' authority as to judgement and

rule over who Jesus can/will/does save being destroyed also. and I can also see their lack of faith that

He takes away all the sin of the world and a few are saved..and ALL will not bear the image of the incorruptible

[jabcat]

Im asking for some clarity here.   Unless Gary tells me otherwise, this is a site that believes calling on the name of the Lord, having faith in the crucified and resurrected Jesus is the only way to the Father (as Jesus said).     And we are called to be witness to that - the Good News.      Some will be given faith to do so in this life, the rest when they stand before Him (Victorious Gospel).  Other doctrines such as works, other aspects such as the parables about loving, gaining or losing rewards, etc., are of course important things - WITHIN the context of firstly having been drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith to believe in Him as Savior - but are not beneficial for confusing the issue of knowing Jesus as Savior. 

Sheila and Lomarah, you both seem to be making a case for other ways to salvation.


If not, please clarify.  If so, please explain how you reconcile these scriptures with your belief.

"If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Thanks.

[eaglesway]

Sometimes we speak of what has been done by hypocites as if it is an excuse for rejecting Jesus as if there is no Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the ultimate witness. All men are spoken tovwithin by Him. Hevdraws... Convicts... Glorifies Jesus as the I Am of God. Our ministry is to bear witness with, thru Him. God does the rest. We do not preach good works. We preach Jesus and encourage good worjs. We do not judge the works of others.

I am He that tries the reins and the hearts.

We are not entitled to say if you dou this or that but dont receive Him you safe. We can say, God knows every heart and it will all b revealed in the day.

We are to declare the gospel. Christ crucified and Christ risen, Jesus Christ is Lord.... The name above every name. The rest is up to God.

We expose the works of darkness by being light in the Light. All will b judged. No one will b excluded, but many adversaries will b subjected thru kolassis and many who invoke His name will b found false and some merely wood hay and stubblish.

All these things are above our paygrade. We are called to bear witness to our Lord and Savior Jesus and walk in His way. Only He, by His Spirit baptizes into the one body.  While God is dealing with every soul on earth, everday in many ways, we are the called out ones in His name. Heralds of a coming kingdom, gathering disciples in His name.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

[lomarah]

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

See I think where our main difference lies is in what we consider to be salvation. I consider salvation to be an actual being set free from sin and (spiritual) death. (Like in the here and now, experientially, not simply upon physical death.) What brings about that salvation, experientially, is faith in the Truth. And certainly when one has faith in the Truth (being led by the Spirit), their "works" will show it.

I do not see the Father as counting faith or works as "good", unless they are in the Truth, and He only considers them to be " good" because they set His captive beloved children free. A person can "love their neighbor" (in falsehood, trying to be "righteous") and be as sinful inside as a devil worshipper. The " works" are just filthy garments, done from an impure motive. In my opinion, God does not get angry at us for any of it because, as Jesus stated, we "do not know what we do". We are so blinded by our religious beliefs and the fear of hell that we do all of these things out of impure motives, to save our own behinds, rather than out of true hearts of compassion for our neighbors. (I am not saying all Christians do this, I am speaking of those that do. I know by experience because I belonged to this group for a good number of years. It wasn't until God set me free from the fear of Him and of hell that I was able to truly open my heart to Him again, and experience His love, for myself and all others. He is still working these things out in me, and I am so thankful for His salvation!!)

[lomarah]

Jab I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion?  :dontknow:

What I'm saying is, the Spirit of Christ is the Word of God, is the Light within each man, whom we all choose to either obey or deny. And that religion often calls us to deny His Voice in favor of tradition.

[sheila]

because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

[jabcat]

Jab I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion?  :dontknow:

What I'm saying is, the Spirit of Christ is the Word of God, is the Light within each man, whom we all choose to either obey or deny. And that religion often calls us to deny His Voice in favor of tradition.

I see..so your interpretation of knowing Christ is that He's already abiding in all, we just have to listen to "the Voice", and whether we obey  that voice or not (works, love) is the answer?  We fundamentally disagree then, as I don't believe "the light that lights every man" means your (apparent) interpretation.  I don't believe other scripture, taken in context, bears out that's the case.   As I don't believe everyone already knows God or has Jesus (in a saving way) until they're specifically drawn by the Holy Spirit to receive Him (as the scripture says in John 1:12), then I don't generally believe everyone can just follow their conscience and be loving and that equals being a child of God (which only comes through turning to Him specifically as Savior).  Again, there are specific scriptures about receiving Him, calling on HIM, knowing Who He is, not some vague notion of just "listening to a voice within".  (IMO) 

[jabcat]

Im asking for some clarity here.   Unless Gary tells me otherwise, this is a site that believes calling on the name of the Lord, having faith in the crucified and resurrected Jesus is the only way to the Father (as Jesus said).     And we are called to be witness to that - the Good News.      Some will be given faith to do so in this life, the rest when they stand before Him (Victorious Gospel).  Other doctrines such as works, other aspects such as the parables about loving, gaining or losing rewards, etc., are of course important things - WITHIN the context of firstly having been drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith to believe in Him as Savior - but are not beneficial for confusing the issue of knowing Jesus as Savior. 

Sheila and Lomarah, you both seem to be making a case for other ways to salvation.


If not, please clarify.  If so, please explain how you reconcile these scriptures with your belief.

"If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Thanks.

[jabcat]

because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think anyone's "arguing" that.  I don't see anyone disagreeing with that...more so, how to know Him.  Is it vague, or do the scriptures clearly tell us how (quoted above)?  And if so, I believe anything else just confuses the issue.

[eaglesway]

What I am hearing is. Voice. Truth. Light. Spirit. Love.

Beautiful.

All these things are in the world by Jesus Christ right?

Do we all acclaim His Lordship here?

We have ALL proclaimed that we believe that all will be reconciled, GATHERED TOGETHER INTO ONE IN CHRIST.

Not through some nebulous lovetruthvoicelight but rather each in their own order as everknee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord the the glory of God the Father.

[Seth]

because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

He welcomed the prodigal son home after he repented and returned to his father, not because he was a good person his whole life.

[gregoryfl]

I guess I need to ask then. If someone believes that all humanity is in Christ, and that He is in all humanity, and is the Savior of all; and also believes that one must believe that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Him as Master in order to be saved, that they would not be welcome to share their understanding here on this message board?

Ronen

[eaglesway]

I think that the message of this board is that Jesus is saving all, gathering all into the all in all. All are not yet saved...gathered. They will be saved...gathered each in there own order. If all were already saved, there wiuld b no need to offer a warning to adversaries, as Jesus and the apostles did.

There is a veil yet to be torn. The gospel is tearing it, thru the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This the message of the board and it is up to the moderators to decide when duscussion becones disputation of these basic facts upon which we stand. We exercize a lot of leeway in discussion, but disputation of the need for salvation abd continuing sanctification as diciples is where we draw the line. That is how I c it.James, as senior moderator can weigh in on that.

[gregoryfl]

I guess, for me, I just see much misunderstanding oftentimes of what each is saying, and not so much an outright disputation of truth. We use certain familiar words and instantly someone reads a certain aspect into that word that the poster did not have in mind and disagrees, when there is nothing to disagree about...kind of like Yeshua telling others to eat his flesh and drink his blood or to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days, without taking the time to explain exactly what he meant...he seemingly disputed truth and fact, yet we, on the other side, know otherwise.

We all know pretty well what we mean when we say something. The challenge is sharing the same on an impersonal message board where you cannot see the person and you are limited to text on a page.

Ronen

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:
I certainly agree.
Most of us are probably guilty of this.
I find that often some members do not bother to really read an entire post and jump in  to comment.
Not criticizing - just and observation  :mshrug: