Tentmaker Forum

Hello,

recently I've been reading about some older theology works especially from the catholic corner. They often spoke about an "image of God" in our minds that has evolved in time and has been recognized by all religions really - although Christ and His revelation would be the true path to God.

But by this token, could it be said that a Zeus worshiper in the antique times was also knowing God already to some extent? Or that a buddha follower might have a sense of God too already in his own religion?

I must admit that I find other religions rather fascinating lately. Not that Jesus is not the prime deity, it is just that there might be other gods too and Jesus would be their master per his title Lord of Lords. That Jesus is somehow the main deity of the earthly pantheon of deities.

What do you think?

Many will disagree with you here, but I won't, at least not completely. Words often fail when it comes to describing the things of the Spirit, and it is very easy to misunderstand someone's words, or to see them through your own interpretive lens, missing the true meaning. That is why I say I support your statements, yet cannot say I endorse them completely. (Not to mention our individual view of theology and God changes so drastically over time, which is another reason not to endorse a statement wholeheartedly. ;) )

I will leave you with this statement from Jesus, "I have said, 'Ye are gods.'"

If you go way, way back in the religion of Egypt, they worshipped a god (little "g") who I won't name per Biblical instructions, but they depicted this god as a ram-headed man, and he made men and women on a potter's wheel, much as the Bible sometimes depicts the God of the Bible doing the same.  The Egyptians kept some concepts of what Noah handed down.

Lao-Tsu wrote the Tao Te Ching, and spoke much in it about the mysterious Tao, and I think he got awfully close to the mark, having had no contact with the Hebrew tradition of Yahweh.  It's only philosophy, but I read his book happily.

The followers of Zoroaster had a theology which in some ways seems to me to be almost (almost!) pre-Christian.

The old, traditional, pictographic writing system of China, if understood properly, tells the story of the early chapters of Genesis.

The Miao people of southern China have handed down the story of Genesis from Adam (the patriarch Dirt) to the Babel dispersion, where their story deviates (as expected) from the Hebrew story.  It's oral tradition, thousands of years old, and they even preserve the names of the patriarchs phonetically, and we can still recognize the names if we go back to the Bible and check.

I think God left His mark in every peoples' collective memories, myths, and belief systems.  He's God, so why shouldn't He?

I have studied metaphysics, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, B'hai.....I was seeking in all these things before I was saved. Before I met Jesus. I have continued, for the purpose of awareness and intelligent conversation with people of other faiths, to read about them.

The echoes of our God that are in the ancient religions, such as Buddhism, the Tao Te Ching, and others are (imo) simply truths of wisdom that have been reflected in the creation snce the beginning. We have to remember that before Israel there was nothing we know of that was an "ordained representative of God on earth".

Israel was small, comparatively, and the testimony of the Lampstand was the way in which God dealt with them. Blessing them when they walked in the two great commandments, disciplining them when they fell into idolatry and wantoness.

In the meantime, God had not left the rest of the world completely without testimony, and I can think of three scriptures in particuar that confirm this.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Ro 1

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth
And their utterances to the end of the world. Ps 19

  For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

In the last portion, Acts 17, we see Paul acknowledges that God has so set up the world that everyone everywhere would be spurred by the evidence of life and creation to grope for Him, and they have, and out of that groping whispers and shadows of truth emerged, as well as echoes of the words of the forfathers such as Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah and Shem.

However, if you look into these religions philosophies you will find, even as in some Christian and Jewish philosophies, among the whispers and shadows, the teachings of elemental spirits, principalities and powers. Teachings about "avatars"(incarnations of God") and perfection achieved through physical, intellectual and spiritual endeavors with no reference to the need for REDEMPTION THROUGH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, without whom and without which, NO HUMAN CAN CROSS THE CHASM INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, the budhist person who found wisdom did not find it from budhism, but from some echoes of the I AM, some whisper from YHWH the Creator, who has OVERLOOKED THE TIMES OF IGNORANCE(put that in your pipe and smoke all you legalists out there ;o). That person will stand before Jesus Christ in the day and I believe he will rejoice to see HIS face and recognize in it the LIGHT of which before he had seen only shadows and the WORD of which before he had heard only the barest whispers.

But now all truth is subsumed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. His name is the name above every name because He was the only begotten son of God, and only He could save the world from chaos and sin.

He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature- so what was once evident in creation is now PRE EMINENTLY EVIDENT in Jesus.

If the law was a shadow of Christ, all of these other philosophies and religions are veils to Him now, and what whispers of truth they bear are less than shadows.

Paul nailed it in Acts 17.... WHAT YOU WORSHIP IN IGNORANCE I DECLARE TO YOU.

I am thankful that the Lord Jesus will be revealed to all.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


But everyone will be redeemed by His blood, bow to His Lordship and confess His name to the glory of YHWH.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

There is no other, nor has there ever been any other, through whom we are untied to YHWH the Creator.

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of our people, 9 are we being questioned today because we've done a good deed for a crippled man? Do you want to know how he was healed? 10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead. 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

'The stone that you builders rejected
    has now become the cornerstone.'[c]
12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved."  Acts 4:8 - 12

...4"For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me. 5"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,... Isaiah 45:4-6

"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

John 10 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

10 `Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber;
2 and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep;
3 to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth;
4 and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice;
5 and a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers.'
6 This similitude spake Jesus to them, and they knew not what the things were that he was speaking to them;
7 Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you -- I am the door of the sheep;
8 all, as many as came before me, are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them;
9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.
10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.
11 `I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;
12 and the hireling, and not being a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, doth behold the wolf coming, and doth leave the sheep, and doth flee; and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep;
13 and the hireling doth flee because he is an hireling, and is not caring for the sheep.
14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine,
15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep,
16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
17 `Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it;
18 no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'

Only one God, IMO. But, I do agree, it is good to know about other people's beliefs, so we can understand them and have an intelligent conversation with them, as eaglesway said.   

:dsunny:

Amen Dandelion, I agree.  Good post.   :thumbsup:  Scripturally sound.

Quote from: eaglesway on June 25, 2015, 05:17:10 AM

The echoes of our God that are in the ancient religions are (imo) simply truths of wisdom that have been reflected in the creation snce the beginning.

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead


However, if you look into these religions philosophies you will find.. no reference to the need for REDEMPTION THROUGH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, without whom and without which, NO HUMAN CAN CROSS THE CHASM INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, the budhist person who found wisdom did not find it from budhism, but from some echoes of the I AM

But now all truth is subsumed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. His name is the name above every name because He was the only begotten son of God, and only He could save the world from chaos and sin.


There is no other, nor has there ever been any other, through whom we are untied to YHWH the Creator.

:thumbsup:

I have been asked why preach Christ? I simply answer because only by preaching Christ can anyone understand their God. And by Christ I mean HIM, JESUS CHRIST.

However, my experience in this world, is that some people calling themselves Christians do not preach Christ but they preach their ideology, giving Christ second place - and I personally find the effect of their ideology is to drive a wedge between them and the brothers and sisters their professed Leader has commanded them to love first and foremost - the teaching of men makes matters worse - in my opinion.

As I see it - when death comes - according to my understanding, such Christians find themselves not only in classes for the young, but in remedial classes where they must first unlearn all that they have been conditioned with, before learning about the Love of the Living Christ anew.

One cannot walk in darkness for so long and then immediately stare into the Light.

And perhaps the one that the Christian decided to condemn, although Christ's commandments were followed in thought and deed albeit if in ignorance, is not found to be in such a sad position. It is the case that he who thought he was first is now last, as it were.

That is just my personal understanding.

Peace.

 :flamebreath:

Good stuff my friends!

:thumbsup:

Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c

29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

It seems to make good sense to believe that God in all times and all places, whether through creation or His Spirit, is reaching out to man to draw the to Himself.  Is there anything in scripture to preclude us from believing that He might have informed, moved, even inspired others in various times and places apart from Israel and the Church?  That is an honest question.  All that is true and good in other religions and philosophies, if it is indeed true and good, must surely (based on our belief in UR) only be pointing to, introducing, preparing for, or experiencing the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.  I think the problem is often in the language we, and those of other faiths, use to express these truths.  And the problem might also be that we have so distorted the image (of Jesus) that those of other faiths don't recognize Him whom they have been seeking and experiencing when they encounter him in OUR Christianity.

 

I agree with you Steve W

   Universal    means everything   Gathered into the LIGHT AND LIFE  IN ONE SPIRIT

and it is     called God    , God is fair and just and pure and holy and GOD IS LOVE            :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: SteveW on June 26, 2015, 09:50:22 AM
Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c

29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

It seems to make good sense to believe that God in all times and all places, whether through creation or His Spirit, is reaching out to man to draw the to Himself.  Is there anything in scripture to preclude us from believing that He might have informed, moved, even inspired others in various times and places apart from Israel and the Church?  That is an honest question.  All that is true and good in other religions and philosophies, if it is indeed true and good, must surely (based on our belief in UR) only be pointing to, introducing, preparing for, or experiencing the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.  I think the problem is often in the language we, and those of other faiths, use to express these truths.  And the problem might also be that we have so distorted the image (of Jesus) that those of other faiths don't recognize Him whom they have been seeking and experiencing when they encounter him in OUR Christianity.

OUR Christianity may certainly be held in question. Western culture, mentality, history has infected Christianity and made it into a mutation, heavy on law at one end, formulaic with grace on the other end. Often ignoring the mystery in the middle. "Christ in you the hope of glory"

But at the same time it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well. I have studied Hinduism, Budhism, B'hai and I can say that they are not prep schools for Christ, altho I believe the Lord will have mercy on many beautiful souls trapped in these cages, and they will be set free when they see His face in the Day- just as will many beautiful souls trapped in legalistic Christian denominations, sects, and cults.

The Lord knows them that are His.

Most of the world's religions are just full of mutation and deception and false images of God. Religion is the primary means by which the adversary blinds/veils people from seeing the Lord Jesus.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for bringing that context in Eaglesway.  I guess at first glance my question would be "will God's will (passion, intention) in salvation be thwarted by the god of this world?" and I'm sure you would agree "by no means!!!".

Perhaps the crux of the matter isn't, as you say, that "it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well".  I have sat with and read those of other religions as well, especially on the mystical side, and found their experience and understanding of God to be profound and even very informing of my own experience and understanding of Christianity.  I would suggest that, though I understand many would take great offense, that there is revelation there.  That God is revealing himself to them in their context.

Perhaps the crux of the matter is whether they have "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."  Jesus - his incarnation, his death, his resurrection - is the pivotal point of all history, this is the revelation that they are missing.  It isn't that there isn't revelation, it is that it is missing the culmination of revelation, the mystery of God incarnate in Jesus.  For even the idea of God incarnate in man is profoundly expressed in deep ways in other religions.  If God incarnate, and our being invited into trinitarian fellowship through Jesus has always been God's plan, surely he has been preparing all people for this?  Even familial/marital relationships are a revelation of it.

If something is true in Christianity, and that same truth is embraced, though perhaps with different language and a slightly different understanding in another religion, where did they get that truth?  Did Satan reveal it to them to blind them?  Or did God reveal it to them to draw them close or prepare them?

Did God go to all the trouble to make it so man could find him - even those in nations and times with NO biblical revelation, and make it so that He is not far from ANY of us, with no intention of being found?  Are THOSE people all relegated during this time to the victorious wiles of the evil one? What would it mean for them to "find" him?  Could they do so apart from Christ?

"You must be born again" by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.  So how far can their revelation take them?  How is it that there are Buddhists and Muslims who experientially and practically have more of the fruit of the Spirit and the Love of God in their lives than I do?  I have to admit I can't get my head around how or when this all fits together.  I certainly don't have it figured out.

Interesting thoughts.  Sorry for rambling.

Well Steve, I say thanks for rambling.

It's an interesting topic that I don't know much about but have wondered about. I once saw a prayer that came from an early American Indian tribe and it was pretty much like a christian prayer but referring to the Great Spirit and of course not Jesus because probably they never heard of Him. Also there are many stories of Jesus appearing to Muslims in dreams and it resulted in a changed life. And there is the ISIL soldier that was changed that way. Seeking God results in finding and sometime people find God when they aren't seeking, like Paul. Religion doesn't help including the christian religion except that we have the bible instead of the koran or some other holy book.

I know my opinion on this is partly a reaction against the common thinking that all people that are not christian like us are going to hell, and that all roads do not lead to heaven like us universalists obviously believe.  :sigh:

Quote from: SteveW on June 26, 2015, 08:02:49 PM
Thank you for bringing that context in Eaglesway.  I guess at first glance my question would be "will God's will (passion, intention) in salvation be thwarted by the god of this world?" and I'm sure you would agree "by no means!!!".

Perhaps the crux of the matter isn't, as you say, that "it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well".  I have sat with and read those of other religions as well, especially on the mystical side, and found their experience and understanding of God to be profound and even very informing of my own experience and understanding of Christianity.  I would suggest that, though I understand many would take great offense, that there is revelation there.  That God is revealing himself to them in their context.

Perhaps the crux of the matter is whether they have "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."  Jesus - his incarnation, his death, his resurrection - is the pivotal point of all history, this is the revelation that they are missing.  It isn't that there isn't revelation, it is that it is missing the culmination of revelation, the mystery of God incarnate in Jesus.  For even the idea of God incarnate in man is profoundly expressed in deep ways in other religions.  If God incarnate, and our being invited into trinitarian fellowship through Jesus has always been God's plan, surely he has been preparing all people for this?  Even familial/marital relationships are a revelation of it.

If something is true in Christianity, and that same truth is embraced, though perhaps with different language and a slightly different understanding in another religion, where did they get that truth?  Did Satan reveal it to them to blind them?  Or did God reveal it to them to draw them close or prepare them?

Did God go to all the trouble to make it so man could find him - even those in nations and times with NO biblical revelation, and make it so that He is not far from ANY of us, with no intention of being found?  Are THOSE people all relegated during this time to the victorious wiles of the evil one? What would it mean for them to "find" him?  Could they do so apart from Christ?

"You must be born again" by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.  So how far can their revelation take them?  How is it that there are Buddhists and Muslims who experientially and practically have more of the fruit of the Spirit and the Love of God in their lives than I do?  I have to admit I can't get my head around how or when this all fits together.  I certainly don't have it figured out.

Interesting thoughts.  Sorry for rambling.

I understand your thoughts. I disagree about the degree of revelation in these religions tho. Buddhists and Hindus and B'Hais for instance, all believe in avatars of God, Hindus and B'Hais even accept Jesus as an avatar of God- but they do not accept Him as Lord or Messiah or the only begottn son of God. Their very religion and the fundamental teachings of them blind men from seeing 'the lgiht of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is the singular revelation of this age, for Jew and Gentile alike, and in the verses you quoted in Acts 17, Paul declares that the answer tot he question, "Who is God", is found for all men in that light- from now on. I do believe God has ovelooked the times of ignorance, and where there is ignorance- only God is the judge of each heart, but as far as revelation goes, there is a wide gulf between the world view, the understanding of where the restoration of all things comes from, and the identity of God, and the solution to chaos- between the gospel and these religions and philosophies. I was saved out of metaphysics, and I do believe that western religiantiy has stripped the revelation of Jesus Christ from its mystical moorings and reality, but these religions provide no solution to the problem.

The Spirit of God glorifies Jesus, to the glory of the Father- YHWH. The scriptures of the prophets and apostles clearly define His role from creation, to redemption to the restoration of all things. He is the One all will bow before in humble adoration and gratitude- each in his own order. There is no other.

As Paul said, "That which you worship IN IGNORANCE I declare unto you....And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You"?

Also in Colossians Paul teaches the supremacy of the Lord Jesus....

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

This gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Only Begotten Son, is unique in all the world. There is no redemption in any other.

Wisdom cries out in the streets. Ther is knowledge and there is self-evident truth falling like rain on the just and the unjust, but every person who ever lived is reconciled by the blood of His cross, and no other reconciliation will ever be mad available. He alone is appointed to this role, as Paul explains in Acts 17. It is for this reason, and this Name, attached to this One Unique Person that all those who worship Him in spirit and in truth suffer persecution in this world for His namesake.

God loves all, and all will be reconciled, but only at the feet of the One who is in the bosom of the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote
I once saw a prayer that came from an early American Indian tribe and it was pretty much like a christian prayer but referring to the Great Spirit and of course not Jesus because probably they never heard of Him

To me, this is the spirit within that is calling for the recognition of the spirit within others. I have seen this happen in other religions where the spirit within someone is calling to the mind of the body to lay aside the narrow confines of its religious doctrine, and to permit the spirit to soar free in the pastures of the Spirit. Often the result is to be rigidly snapped back into place by the traditional attitude considered by that religion as authoritative.

Perhaps the key here is to take a step back, and view things calmly and dispassionately, in order to understand the difference between that of worshipping in spirit and in truth - and that of worshipping an idea created by the minds of men.

I do not speak for all indigenous American Indian peoples, but there was a definite Principle in the religion of many towards the Great Spirit which was followed with a complete faith and which was translated into sincere practice.

Many  would gladly lay their life down for their friends; they were persecuted by both environment and illness, as well as the strangers who robbed them of their tracts of land and brought misery and destruction to their thresholds - a suffering which, by God's merciful law of compensation, gained for them a priceless blessing in the Spirit; they sought to give love to their fellows; they had a true sacrificial spirit, they would choose to undergo hardship as part of their offering to their Great Spirit; they wanted not what the world had to give except the bare essentials to survive and lead a courageous life with noble-hearted thoughts and desires, and who prayerfully treated with respect all that they took - they were true caretakers of the environment; they had a deep reverence for the One Spirit that gave them life, a reverence that was sacred indeed.

So the silver cord is loosed and into conditions of love and sacrifice they do pass, passing the grossness depicting earthly desire. And while it is with wonderment and a gratitude beyond expression, it is only with but a little readjustment that they recognise that the One so beautiful and noble who meets them is none other than the Loving Christ - not too surprising for it they can accept that He represents in perceptible form the One to whom they gave their allegiance in spirit and truth while living by faith in an earthly body of flesh.

Yet the great surprise is to find that the One Spirit by whom their lives were ordered - now seen in the Christ that they had never heard of as far as His Incarnation as Jesus was concerned - the great surprise is that He far exceeds in wonder and love their wildest imaginations, for His humbleness and gentleness is sweeter than any man could dare to imagine to lay upon the God who is his sovereign Spirit.

Almost immediately, some have their spirit's desire fulfilled because they find that they can be used by the Saviour Christ directly - and, unlike some who simply want an existence in Paradise to escape the tests and temptations of the earth for which they were born - to the tried warrior being in His service is all that is desired, for they have learnt that service to others in His Name is true spiritual joy. And He has much service for such as these.

This is my opinion, not that of many, but nevertheless I personally believe it to be true and important.

Some, not all, worship in spirit and in truth - and that is what is real to the God who is Spirit - not possessing a metaphysical notion of the mind without the accompanying life-long practice which is aligned to the life and teachings of Jesus the Christ.

It is what one has become that matters, it is how conformed the soul has become to the likeness of the Christ who is Spirit, as is the God that Christ expresses in as much abundance as His child can take. It is a wise and wondrous Plan of the Mind of Christ, a Plan of perfect Justice and Divine Love.

Here is something for those who like poetry, it is an addition to Longfellow's existing song...


    Gone the pageant and the glory;
    Gone the splendour of the sunset;
    Hiawatha's earthly sojourn...
    Yet his spirit dwells amongst you,
    Seeking yet the crimson fire-beams
    From the camp fires of his brothers.

    Minnehaha steals beside him,
    Twisting in her hair the willow;
    Green and fragrant is the willow:
    While her spirit wanders care-free
    O'er the plains of the dark country,
    Once so fair and full of promise.

    Now the stranger's hand is o'er it,
    Turning the fair land to madness.
    There is naught of peace or quiet
    In the selfish soul of white men
    Who deliver to the ashes
    All that curb their mean ambition.

    Gone the pageant and the glory
    Of the simple-hearted brothers.
    Gone the beauty of the sunset,
    When the Chiefs made humble offering -
    Bounteous offering to the Father
    Who had given them the country.
    The fair country of the Mohawks:

    Lost for ever is that country;
    None may roam at will its borders,
    In the care-free boundless fashion;
    All are fettered and in bondage,
    Who are left of the great Mohawks.

    Gone the pageant and the glory;
    Yet the spirit of the Mohawk
    Wanders o'er the sunlit rivers;
    O'er the moorland and the mountain,
    Where the wild and ruthless North Wind
    Steals away the fairest blossom
    Borne upon the South Wind's bosom...
    Takes it into the North Country,
    Breathes upon it and returns it
    Broken, to the South Wind's bosom;
    While the tardy West Wind hastens,
    To rebuke th'unruly North Wind.
    In the East the sun has risen,
    Smiling with the promised blessing;
    And the Day Star gleams and beckons
    Night to fasten back her tresses.

    All is gone that held the Mohawk;
    Yet he wanders o'er the country,
    Seeking to refresh the weary;
    Thus he comes with blessings laden,
    Into the white people's country;
    Turning not when men rebuke him;
    Ling'ring yet to smooth their sickness
    As the Great White Spirit bids him...
    Thus is Hiawatha with you...

The Spirt that is of God glorifies Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. While I understand the abuses perpetrated by western religionists have obscured the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, the gospel of Jesus is the only remover of the veil, the blood of the cross of Jesus is the only reconciling agent, the Spirit of Christ the only true testimony in this age.

I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No man comes to the Father but through Me.  - Jesus

 :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

QuoteYet the great surprise is to find that the One Spirit by whom their lives were ordered - now seen in the Christ that they had never heard of as far as His Incarnation as Jesus was concerned - the great surprise is that He far exceeds in wonder and love their wildest imaginations, for His humbleness and gentleness is sweeter than any man could dare to imagine to lay upon the God who is his sovereign Spirit.

Almost immediately, some have their spirit's desire fulfilled because they find that they can be used by the Saviour Christ directly - and, unlike some who simply want an existence in Paradise to escape the tests and temptations of the earth for which they were born - to the tried warrior being in His service is all that is desired, for they have learnt that service to others in His Name is true spiritual joy. And He has much service for such as these.

This is my opinion, not that of many, but nevertheless I personally believe it to be true and important.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,, it is by the Same Spirit where LOVE AND TRUTH  DWELL

We have a name , given to us and  are faithful to His name  .

but more so faithful to His loving   Holy Spirit of truth    that God created ''all things'' for His Glory        :HeartThrob:


  The Father seeks those to worship Him in SPIRIT &TRUTH As  pouring yourself out as an offering to  serve the LIVING GOD   ,JESUS GAVE  HIMSELF  for and we should do the same   in the same way  , becoming all things to all men that you/us /we   might save some from  the unknown ends of mortal life not knowing the true and Living God   .

romans 8  28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

gather all things into Himself /Christ the anointed ONE


Eph 1Spiritual Blessings
...9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him


10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Psalms 42     As the deer pants for the water brooks,

So my soul pants for You, O God.


2My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?


3My tears have been my food day and night, While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?"...

The terminology of such things can be a fine line, so I dont always know what I am responding to, so at the risk of appearing repetitive, I will only say this.

There is one spirit/ He is named in Jesus, the only begotten Son of YHWH.

The name of Krishna will not be glorified. It is the name of a false god, a deity from among those the scripture refers to as, "The gods of the nations are demons.

Budha will not be named. Neither Confuscious or Zoroaster will be named. Zeus, Odin, Baha'u'llah. None of these names will be named. Nne of these rleigions/philosophies recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior, having the name above every name.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone and the apostles and prophets make up the foundation stones of the city made without hands, having foundations in the heavenlies.

There is a lot of legend that has grown up around the native American people and their religions, beliefs and philosophies.

I cannot judge all of that. No one can. But I do know that every spirit that is of God (YHWH) acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus and His name as having "all authority in heaven and in earth", as well as His unique birth, sinless life, death, resurrection and ascenscion.

Any spirit that rejects Jesus as Lord and Savior is a lying spirit. Any spirit that teaches that Jesus is one of many avatars(manifestations, emanations) is a lying spirit. Jesus is unique above all, having said so Himself, plainly enough, and having, in the testimony of the prophets before Him and the apostles after Him incontrovertible witnesses to the fact.

This is not a U U site. Jesus Christ is Lord here. There is one body and one Spirit. Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Anyone trying to use the site to introduce pluralism will be banned. There are lots of pluralist sites and forums to share that belief.

I apologize if I offend, but we are firmly united on this foundation and will not yield the floor to another spirit suggesting other ways- It is not our purpose.

Amen John, well said.  It's not that subtle.  Jesus, Lord, Son of God, the only way to the Father.  Any other spirit will have to bow and conform to that.  And we need to stick to that.

I understand  , and Love Jesus Christ and talk to him daily !!! ..   He is my  savior  and not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ   .. :HeartThrob:

All will Know whom He is in the end  being the WORD OF GOD  AND many other   things , the ,Lamb of God , the Good Shepherd  , the Vine , the  Door  ,  the Alpha and OMega  first and last and the Son of man and the Son of God    ..

Eaglesway and Jabcat, amen.

One question I have about the example of the great spirit. There were many believers in the great spirit who were also carnal, warlike etc, inasmuch as those who were not.

So, what is the difference between those Native Americans that we supposed to discern that they have had a revelation of God without having heard the Gospel?

Some of what was said here reminds me of our conversation in the "Just believing, God considers you righteous" thread.

well,Seth,you could use that same stick to measure those who proclaim Christ,too.  wiped out the Indians

  ..many will come in my Name. There were peace loving tribes also. a lot of atrocities have been done

by 'believers' in supposedly His name.   Love is supposed to be the way they would 'know'

      I think..that those who do things of the law....are a law unto themselves. What is it in a person

that makes them treat other's like they would like to be treated? to not be greedy,nor steal but work

to provide for themselves and thier families...to be charitable/hospitable[Pilgrims/Thanksgiving etc]

   the Ghost Dance.....hearing about Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost...they were crying out to Him in prayer.

  I wouldn't paint them all with a broad brush..just as those proclaiming the name of Christ.

  they belong to Him...He bought and paid for them...I think we do well..if we leave them to Him

and just do what He told us to do.

  ps..imo...

Who's painting with a broad brush? Do you understand what my point was?

 I think maybe I don't............  there were many in Israel that had a revelation of Yahwey that were

carnal and warlike,too.

   I think love is a heart knowing..not so much a 'head' knowing. anyone who loves is born of God.

   Man with a loving heart..is the image and Likeness of God.

You didn't understand my point, then why did you react so strongly against it?

strongly?

re; what is the difference that we are to be able to discern that native Indians who believe in the Great

  Spirit have had a revelation of God?  Love.  that is how we know.

So we can tell, not through belief, but love?

God is Love.If you see a loving nature in someone..that is  of God"s spirit in them. good[God] evil in all men

     

So professed belief alone is not the true indicator, I guess...we can tell by the fruit. BTW I believe both are necessary, belief in Christ and fruit.

My point is that it seems faith alone is enough for Christians, but for Buddhists we are looking at fruit/love.

 I have heard it said..that such as these have no problem with Jesus Christ...but dealing with those who

follow Him seems to be the problem. What is it now,34,000 christian denominations?. No wonder they

don't know.

It just seems (and I am NOT saying anyone in particular believes this exactly) that whenever I encounter pluralism UR, they are constantly looking at the FRUIT of the unbeliever as EVIDENCE of the SPIRIT. But then when you have a conversation about faith + fruit, suddenly it's legalistic to say you need both, and that faith alone is the key thing for that. I just don't get that.

The problem imo is we think too much. As a disciple i am to bear witness to the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is Messiah of All.

I cannot sort out every issue. I cannot make up for what hypocrites do or have done.

I am bearing witness to the mystery, testifying to the plan of God.

I know Who that plan is from and Who has done the work and When it was finished.

When Jesus breathed His last breath it was done. Since then the entire creation is being gathered into one in Christ.

Since then it is the good news that God was inChrist reconiciling the world unto Himself...the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is destroying the works of the devil.

People seem to claim the discerment to recognize a love that transcends the love of Jesus on the cross.That is where He was given the name above every name, for having the love above every love.

Will we bevwilling to suffer rejection for declaringvthat name? We are not called to offer "universal love". We are called as heralds of the Coming King. We are also calledvto walk in that love, but part of walkingvinbit is continuing to insist...against all odds andvevery voice to the contrary that Jesus Christ is Lord and Redeemer and Restorer.

We are not called to justify former voices. We are not called to"sort out" believers of other ways. God has made provision for justice and mercy for all from every age. That is His business. Our business is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ to all.

That is why this site exists. That is our focus.

I for one, am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ for it is the power of God unto salvationvfor all those who believe.

It's like the message I get is, "That Buddhist is a loving person, he has the Spirit. Me? What a wretched man am I, so my belief in Jesus alone works for me." Seems like a double standard. What about the Buddhist that sees that message on this forum? He's to come away with the notion that he doesn't have to abandon false gods, just continue being a loving person. While the Christian can just say I believe and that's enough.

Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2015, 12:11:32 AM
It's like the message I get is, "That Buddhist is a loving person, he has the Spirit. Me? What a wretched man am I, so my belief in Jesus alone works for me." Seems like a double standard. What about the Buddhist that sees that message on this forum? He's to come away with the notion that he doesn't have to abandon false gods, just continue being a loving person. While the Christian can just say I believe and that's enough.

To me that doesnt matter. Christians believe and follow Jesus because they belueve. A Budhist person will understand disciplship better than most easy believism Christians. I personally thinkvthere are overlappingvteachings between the two.

So what?

I am a discipl of the Lord Jesus.. I am declaring reconiliation in His name snd making disciples as He commanded. Calling all to enterHis Way.... The way of the cross.

QuoteA Budhist person will understand disciplship better than most easy believism Christians.

Easy believism is an interesting way of putting it. And I agree. But among pluralistic UR believers there tends to be another standard they place on themselves than the one on the Buddhist, and that may not matter to you, but it does to me. Double standards are unfair and confusing.

Jesus defined love by the cross and called His disciples to take it up. If we teach the Way...we are disciples of His.  I personally dont see anyvother gospel. Salvation is entering the Way. We enter by grace through faith, but that is an entrance upon a path...not a final destination.

Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2015, 12:24:56 AM

QuoteA Budhist person will understand disciplship better than most easy believism Christians.

Easy believism is an interesting way of putting it. And I agree. But among pluralistic UR believers there tends to be another standard they place on themselves than the one on the Buddhist, and that may not matter to you, but it does to me. Double standards are unfair and confusing.

Sure is. And we just confuse it more with subjective discussion(imo). Paul said the wisdom of God ordained foolish people with a foolish message to confound tge wise and mighty. I believe the Holy Spirit bears witness to the simple truths and sorts it out for allvthose with ears to hear and an honest heart. So I have a lot of faith in the core message of Jesus and the apostles......faith and discipleship. I hav much less faith in our intellectual and philosophical and theological disputations and explanations. 😊

And i am not trying to b cute. I know Budhists understand work. They are essentially under law. It is adifferent law, but their salvation is in their own hands.

What they dont understand- or accept is a personal, pro-active God who cares,and who is "ThePotter" to "clay".

Therefore, there is no place where a Budhist, as a Budhist, meets Christ and remains Budhist. The gospel is really pretty streamlined, and kept "in Christ" does the sorting on its own- at the cross.(imo)

QuoteSo I have a lot of faith in the core message of Jesus and the apostles......faith and discipleship. I hav much less faith in our intellectual and philosophical and theological disputations and explanations.

I agree but what else are going to do on a discussion forum but discuss?  :laughing7:

anybody who acts loving knows God?  I don't buy it.  We only know God by coming to Him through belief in His Son, Jesus Christ crucified and risen again.

I'm truly surprised at some of what I'm reading.

Quote from: Seth on June 30, 2015, 01:03:32 AM

QuoteSo I have a lot of faith in the core message of Jesus and the apostles......faith and discipleship. I hav much less faith in our intellectual and philosophical and theological disputations and explanations.

I agree but what else are going to do on a discussion forum but discuss?  :laughing7:

:laughing7:

Yes indeed, what else ?

Really all I am trying to say is that as we discuss, the answers remain within that core. The questions are legitimate, I just think the answers to some of them can only be to trust the plain statements of scripture. It is all covered in Christ, so we can have confidence in Him, and who He says He is, and who the apostles and prophets say He is.

When things get to complicated for my wee brain I am happy that I can trust the scriptures.

I believe any statement used in isolation such as "anyone who loves knows God", must be placed in context of the rest of scripture, namely, Jesus is THE WAY.

I agree. Love is a word that can have many meanings. Jesus defined love. No true love will reject Him or His message- that we need Him to love, and His cross to disarm the self-life, His blood to overflow our selfishness, His Spirit to lead our hearts in His way.

I do not confuse that with Christian religion or any other religion. Only He knows who is truly in the Way.

Same with works, goodness, kindness, "great person", any of that.  I believe if it's out of the context of "Jesus saves, is the only way, and only He is my righteousness", then it's just "that's nice, wish more people could be like that".  But it doesn't save.   (IMO)

Totally agree  :thumbsup:

Actually, I think a lot of UR leaning people are still afraid of hellism, and how God wil judge the ignorant, but imo there is no need for such concern. God is just and faithful and knows every heart. Those who rejoice to see Him when they awake before Him in the Day will immediatley bow the knee and confess His Lordship. That is when they will be "saved". The only way to recieve salvation in this age, and become a citizen of the kingdom of God, is through the name of Jesus Christ. "For there is no other name given among men whereby you must be saved."

There will be NO question about what name is the name above every name come the Day.

I agree with jabcat and eaglesway.  :iagree:

In everything, there needs to be some boundaries. Without limits, we destroy the essence of what is established as necessary, for the concept, situation, etc. to be functional and fulfill the role it was meant to.

Another one of my analogies.....if you have a fan you want to plug into the electric socket, and the outlet is dead.....without electricity.......it doesn't matter how long you leave the plug there, what you do to the fan, and so on.  The fan will never work, in that socket. If you don't plug it into the socket, with the electricity, the fan will stay still, forever.

The same is true of us. Without Jesus, we are nothing. There is no 'source of power' in any of the other faiths, because Jesus has saved us, and made us a new creation. He alone has come from the Father, and sent us the Holy Spirit. Emmanuel......God is with us. 

Jesus is the Light.....without Him, all is darkness. There is no other Light. 

:dsunny:

well,I'm still trying to figure out how I got the aspersion of being UU placed on my head? :dontknow:

  I've went back and read my posts..and I don't see it.

I think we could all agree that, regardless of how each of us may understand this, that only those who put their faith in Christ are justified.

Yet it seems that some know Him without "knowing" Him, and that others who profess to "know" Him truly do not, yes?

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord...'"

Can a person know the Word of God, the Light of God who enlightens EVERY man, without necessarily "professing Jesus" (the IDEA of Jesus, IMO a HEAD KNOWLEDGE, rather than a TRUE KNOWING or, for lack of a better term, "HEART KNOWLEDGE")? Can a person who "professes Jesus" be severely deceived and evil hearted and in major need of His salvation? I believe He told us so Himself.  :2c:

In my opinion many people reject Christianity because they see hate and hypocrisy among it's followers. Why would they even take an interest in trying to understand who Jesus is when they see what they do among His proclaimed followers? And yet they follow the Voice within, that tells them to love God (or Holy Spirit/Great Spirit) and love thy neighbor even as they love themselves. Truly, THAT is the right Voice.  :2c:

Hi Lomarah.  Much of what you said was in the form of questions, here are my responses, in my opinion.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 02:57:29 AM
Yet it seems that some know Him without "knowing" Him

I don't think what "seems" is truly the way to know.  What do the scriptures say?  I believe they say "no".

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 02:57:29 AM
and that others who profess to "know" Him truly do not, yes?

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord...'"

yes..one must be born again, not just have a head knowledge or a false confession.  The Holy Spirit must draw to Jesus and God must give faith to believe on Him as Savior.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 02:57:29 AM
Can a person know the Word of God, the Light of God who enlightens EVERY man, without necessarily "professing Jesus"

I believe the scriptures say "no".  Paul said to tell people who He is, so they can call on Him.  And that if they don't know, how can they call.

Why would Paul say these things?  "If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 02:57:29 AM
In my opinion many people reject Christianity because they see hate and hypocrisy among it's followers.

I personally think that's often either just an excuse or a trick of the devil.  Also, many who aren't believers, and some who profess to be believers, look for what they want to see;  i.e., "they're no better than me, so why do I need to be a believer?".  It gives them an "out" (they think).  Also, what's often termed "hate" really isn't.  It can be a convenient label to distract and "prove" one's reason for disagreeing.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 02:57:29 AM
And yet they follow the Voice within, that tells them to love God (or Holy Spirit/Great Spirit) and love thy neighbor even as they love themselves. Truly, THAT is the right Voice.  :2c:

I'm not saying the "right voice" doesn't say most or all of the above.  But I believe the right voice truly says, "come to Jesus".

Lomarah, just to add a bit to James' reply, if there can be knowing God without knowing God, and having faith in Jesus without having faith in Jesus, can't there be loving our neighbors without loving our neighbors? Couldn't an unloving Christian apply your principles across the board?

I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

In fact, (sticking with the train of thought in my reply to Seth), I believe that is part of what we are being saved from. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. GOOD AND evil. When we act "good" for the sake of appearing righteous before God or men, it is still an impure motive. (Evil, on the other hand, is obviously.... evil.  :laugh: ) The tree of life is the pure motive of (true) Love.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 05:37:45 AM
I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

:)

I know it's a difficult topic, and I don't have every answer to every question about it either.  I just encourage Christ crucified, risen again.

I've actually struggled with some of what (I think) you're bringing up, and John/EW and I even had some minor disagreement on it in the past.  I think we understand each other better now :)  What I'm getting at is, I THINK the Romans 2 passage about conscience either excusing or accusing/Jesus judging by the heart touches on where you're coming from.  After time and further thought, I have come to understand it as John expresses here;

Quote from: eaglesway on June 30, 2015, 05:01:46 AM
Actually, I think a lot of UR leaning people are still afraid of hellism, and how God will judge the ignorant, but imo there is no need for such concern. God is just and faithful and knows every heart. Those who rejoice to see Him when they awake before Him in the Day will immediatley bow the knee and confess His Lordship. That is when they will be "saved". The only way to recieve salvation in this age, and become a citizen of the kingdom of God, is through the name of Jesus Christ. "For there is no other name given among men whereby you must be saved."There will be NO question about what name is the name above every name come the Day.

I don't believe someone living a good life, being a good person, loving people, etc., means they "know" God.  I believe the only way to do that is through direct relationship with Jesus the Savior, died, rose again, revealed.  But, as John says above, I believe those who follow what light they have, even though still "lost" in this life, will do just as John said above;  their heart will have been prepared to immediately recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior (because every knee must bow, every tongue confess) when they stand before Him.  They will be "excused" (not as in passing Jesus, but as in being fertile ground made ready for His Seed to be implanted in them).   

On the other hand, maybe some (God's the judge) who either thought they knew Him due to their good works, own [self]-righteousness, etc., or maybe are just pretending or deceived, etc., may have to go through more correction before they recognize Jesus as Lord and are finally saved.  (their consciences accusing rather than excusing).  That's the only way I personally can understand this right now, as I don't believe anything but coming through the Door can bring us to the Father. 

Thanks for your kind reply and for being patient with my struggling attempts to explain my thoughts.  Blessings.

Holly, your posts brought to mind the parable of the 'good' Samaritan. Of course Jesus also said ,'Ye Samaritans

worship what ye know not."  Then we have the examples of the Priests and Levites..trying to be ' ritually pure'

   who failed in showing love to their neighbor.

     

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 05:37:45 AM
I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

What I am saying is that if we say that people can have faith WITHOUT having faith, how far can we take that concept where a thing is, but it's not?

For example, in the novel 1984, the ministry of War was called the ministry of Love. The thing is named its opposite until language essentially has lost meaning. The way I see it is that if someone has faith in Christ, they have faith in Christ. If they don't they don't.

If you say that someone has faith in Christ without having faith in Christ, then it is just as logical to say that a man can love his neighbor without loving his neighbor.

I have no disagreement with you about love/fruit as important, but if you say that people can know God without knowing them because of how they act, you are essentially making works a substitute for actual belief and I cannot go there because I don't see that in the Bible.

The good Samaritan is a beautiful parable. It relates to the way God looks upon the hearts of men, and it also is explained in Romans

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This has to do with the judgment of all on the great Day.

Where the confusion comes in, imo, is that this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the declaration of our gospel and the Lordship of Jesus.

We are not called to make alternative pathways to God and justify them by how God will judge the ignorant on the last day. He is the one who judges and says, through Paul to Timothy...

The foundation of God stands firm and is sealed with this inscripton- the Lord knows those who are His and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity 2 Tim 2:19

In Acts 17 Paul deals with this clealrly....

Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


If the good Samritan(hypothetically) was there on that day, he would give glory to God and receive the gospel of Jesus. If he never heard it, God will judge the secrets of his heart BY JESUS CHRIST IN THE DAY. That is not for us, it is for HIM. We are not called to say, "So believing what the Samaritans believe is fine, dont get so allup over the name of Jesus, and all that Samaritan idolatry that is going on", and allow the gospel of the kingdom to become an amalgram of six different world views.

There is only one gospel. Only one reconciler. He calls to discipleship, all who are reconciled- but in a wide house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor.

It is not our calling to work out the judgment of others, pro or con. We are called to put an end to ignorance by proclaiming the Lordship of Jesus Christ. God will judge everyone by the secrets of their hearts, including us.

To the one whom much is given much is required.

He who knew his masters will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes, he who did not kno will be beaten with few stripes.

We are called to declare that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. That He has conquered sin and has opened a pathway to righteousness. That His Spirit is given to all who call upon His name in a sincere heart to enable the discipleship unto which we are all called in Him.

The world will hate us for that, and to a great extent they will do so because they have been conditioned to think we are saying EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING TO BURN FOREVER.

Cant blame them really, but it changes nothing. We are still called to proclaim Christ crucified for all, Christ Lord over all, the name above every name.

Any religion or philosophy that rejects this is among the adversaries. This doesnt mean we dont love them, in fact, it means just the opposite. God loves them, Christ died for each and all of them, and we suffer their rejection for the privilege of saving some into the kingdom of heaven and out of the coming wrath.

When we stand for the testimony of Jesus Christ and His name we are willing to suffer as He did, having no ill will towards ANYONE- but still, holding forth the truth- we are loving as He loved, and any love works we do are further testimonials that we are in Him. This is the ministry of reconciliation- not excusing the iniquity of the world and the false religions in it.

This is what it means to be a disciple and an overcomer. Anyone who is ashamed of His name and His Lordship will fall into the world and find they are building wood, hay and stubble at best- if not actually becoming adversaries of the gospel of Jesus Christ- by which He is overcoming the world.

It does no good to look at the lost and find ways to see them as found. They will be found. He will find them. We are to be the city set on a hill so that those who are searching NOW can find a clear beacon to lead them into the refuge.

 well,I really like this post..and I agree with it.And as far as it goes on we trying to justify people...

  whether it's due to ignorance..or stumbling because many follow with acts of loose conduct and cause the truth

of the Gospel to be spoken of abusively.

  when they hate us and the gospel and we can't blame them really[due to so many many things]

we can Pray  'Father forgive them they know Not what they do"


  ps...I feel it does have to do with the gospel[Good Samaritan]  people who know not what they worship

but show love for their neighbor=1/2 of total law written in their hearts. Priests and Levites who love God

=1/2 of total law written on the hearts....to be whole..we need Love of God and love of neighbor both

   the time coming when people worship in spirit and truth

written in our hearts.

I agree sheila. the law written upon our hearts is brought to remembrance by the Holy Spirit and we are empowered to love in a new way, having the "love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given to us", Rom 5

This law written upon our hearts is the law of love, "a new commandment I give you, but it is not new, it was from the beginning, that you love one another".

So new and not new, meaning, continually renewed as we abide in His light, and walk in fellowship with Him, connected to the vine- and this is not work.... it is just the continuing humility of branches drawing from the Root, and the Root is love, so He says there will be many who will say, "But Lord...." and He will say, "I never knew you"...because the connection to the Root failed at some point and they returned like a dog to its vomit to the self life of hypocrisy and unconcern for their neighbor, even while trumpeting His name.

It is so hard to get believers to define "abiding" and "fruit" and "good works" in terms of love and forgiveness. Forgetting that tho I abstain from certain sins of the flesh that I see in others, if I am haughty or indifferent to the needs and wounds of my fellow humans, I am no better- and especially if I judge anyone as unworthy to be loved and reached out to, because He loved and reached out to every single person from that cross- and is reaching out to them still. :o)

For me it boils down to, can a person know Jesus/God/Holy Spirit without knowing Him by the same name we know Him by? I believe yes.  Can a person "proclaim Jesus" without actually knowing Him and proclaiming Him in Truth? Yes.

Some call Him Jesus. Some call Him Yeshua. Some call Him Yehova. Some call Him the Great Spirit. Some call Him Love. He died and rose for all. Eventually, I believe, all will know Him as He truly is.

What are we saved from? The scriptures say sin and death. The Pharisees thought they knew God yet Jesus said Satan was their father because they were murderous and hateful and " righteous" in their inward beings. The Samaritan loved his neighbor, and in so doing, loved Christ. (In my opinion.... Whatever you do for the least of these... And yes I realize He says, 'in My name'... But I have a different view of what 'in His name' means than some of you. ;) )

You all know me as Lomarah. Others know me as Holly. To some I've been known as 'Holster'. I/we are one and the same, even though most of you would never recognize me on the street.

And, in fact, Jesus had the same view apparently.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME and IN YOUR NAME drive out demons and IN YOUR NAME perform many miracles?'"

And His response is that they are "workers of iniquity", and He knew them not.

Yeah, but he didn't say that those who didn't believe in him did believe in him.  :dontknow:

Also, Jesus didn't deny that they believed in him either. He claimed not to know them. And what people are saying here, and I agree, is that belief is commanded, not to be substituted by being a good guy.

The Bible says that God commands us to Believe in Jesus and love our neighbors. Which of those can we omit in favor of the other?

The "problem" is, it needs to be done in Spirit and in Truth. The Samaritan had the right Spirit in him. The Pharisees did not.

Anyhow, you disagree with my point of view on this matter, and that is ok. My aim is not to change anyone's beliefs, but just to add my own to the discussion.  :friendstu:

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

Matthew 25;46..because of the 'works' of mercy shown...they get to recieve the Kingdom...nations judgement

  note...they said 'when did we see you?" whoever hates his fellowman is a liar if he says he loves God.


    I find it interesting that they were somewhat taken aback..saying they hadn't seen Him...and here

they were recieving the Kingdom...true love for your fellow man is very valued by God.


   they said they didn't know Him..but He knew them..and seeks such to worship Him


   1 John 4;20  If anyone says 'I love God" yet hates his brother,he is a liar. For anyone who does not

  love his brother whom he has seen,can not love God whom he has not seen.


   the Father seeks such that would worship Him in spirit and truth...and they ARE FOUND OF HIM......

  and recieve the kingdom.

Taking a closer look at the Samaritan parable:

Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal (aionios) life?"
27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

When I look at the parable, it doesn't say that the Samaritan did not believe in Jesus. It doesn't discuss his personal belief. It only reveals his works. Nowhere does Jesus say that the Samaritan can get by without "loving God with all his mind."

It seems pretty clear to me, that this PARABLE means to represent the Gentiles who would be given faith to receive the Spirit and that they would have the Law written in their hearts and a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit by grace THROUGH FAITH (the Jews becoming NEIGHBORS with the Gentiles through joined faith and the Spirit). Those are my thoughts on the parable and what it represents.

Defending the necessity for faith in Jesus Christ on a Christian site is an interesting experience.

Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 06:35:12 PM
So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

Believing and obeying are the same thing.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 07:18:54 PM
Matthew 25;46..because of the 'works' of mercy shown...they get to recieve the Kingdom...nations judgement

  note...they said 'when did we see you?" whoever hates his fellowman is a liar if he says he loves God.


    I find it interesting that they were somewhat taken aback..saying they hadn't seen Him...and here

they were recieving the Kingdom...true love for your fellow man is very valued by God.


   they said they didn't know Him..but He knew them..and seeks such to worship Him


   1 John 4;20  If anyone says 'I love God" yet hates his brother,he is a liar. For anyone who does not

  love his brother whom he has seen,can not love God whom he has not seen.


   the Father seeks such that would worship Him in spirit and truth...and they ARE FOUND OF HIM......

  and recieve the kingdom.

Sheila, the sheep and goats parable says that they didn't realize they saw him, not that they didn't believe in him. They wanted to know how the good works they did for others translated into doing it for him, not that they didn't believe in him in the first place.

It's strange to me that you don't see what you are saying  as works based salvation.

Quote from: bushy on July 01, 2015, 07:34:55 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 06:35:12 PM
So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

Believing and obeying are the same thing.

Believe in Jesus and love your neighbor. Those are Christ's commandments. Gotta have both if you say you are obedient.

see that's just it Seth..to the jewish mindset;  neighbor is thought of in terms of whom you have associations

with.  the jews had no associations with the Samaritans...........[wouldn't even speak to them]

   the young man was really rich..had all kinds of material wealth he could have been relieving his fellowman

with[hungry/naked and ye clothed/fed me] etc.

      Jesus showed the lack of love in the rich man unto his fellowman's suffering.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 07:40:12 PM
see that's just it Seth..to the jewish mindset;  neighbor is thought of in terms of whom you have associations

with.  the jews had no associations with the Samaritans...........[wouldn't even speak to them]

   the young man was really rich..had all kinds of material wealth he could have been relieving his fellowman

with[hungry/naked and ye clothed/fed me] etc.

      Jesus showed the lack of love in the rich man unto his fellowman's suffering.

Yes, which to me represents the dividing wall coming down between Jew and Gentile through shared faith and love in Christ alone. That's how they become neighbors, even brothers and sisters with no actual genetic connection as Paul would later explain, not that faith is unnecessary.

but He is the Saviour of ALL men...specially those who believe......

It's crazy Sheila, to see you using parables to show that those good works were sufficient for the sheep on the right apparently without belief necessary, when you had this problem with me in another thread saying that works must follow belief, calling it "works based salvation." It's just amazing.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 07:52:28 PM
but He is the Saviour of ALL men...specially those who believe......

Yes, but each in their order. All rule and authority must be destroyed, including other gods and lack of faith. Nobody is saying that anyone will be excluded.

when my little grand-daughter said she was an atheist..and didn't believe in God[due to some horrific things]

   I told her...well,He most certainly does exist..and I'm not bothered by your unbelief at all. All it's

going to take is Him manifesting himself to you...and He can make a believer out of you in an instant.

....and then the people will hear,what they had not heard,and see what they had not seen.

I agree with what you said to her, but I think it's beside the point of the OP and the things that Holly is saying.

What I am getting from you Sheila is that faith is enough for believers without works, and works are enough for unbelievers without faith. That's an internal inconsistency to resolve, unless you can explain it.

Is it necessary for BELIEVERS to do the same things in the parable you referenced? If so, then what is your problem with "works based salvation" that you had in another thread?

re;  all rule an authority must be destroyed,including other gods and lack of faith........

   is it not written in your laws that ye are gods? I see a lot of 'churches' authority as to judgement and

rule over who Jesus can/will/does save being destroyed also. and I can also see their lack of faith that

He takes away all the sin of the world and a few are saved..and ALL will not bear the image of the incorruptible

Im asking for some clarity here.   Unless Gary tells me otherwise, this is a site that believes calling on the name of the Lord, having faith in the crucified and resurrected Jesus is the only way to the Father (as Jesus said).     And we are called to be witness to that - the Good News.      Some will be given faith to do so in this life, the rest when they stand before Him (Victorious Gospel).  Other doctrines such as works, other aspects such as the parables about loving, gaining or losing rewards, etc., are of course important things - WITHIN the context of firstly having been drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith to believe in Him as Savior - but are not beneficial for confusing the issue of knowing Jesus as Savior. 

Sheila and Lomarah, you both seem to be making a case for other ways to salvation.


If not, please clarify.  If so, please explain how you reconcile these scriptures with your belief.

"If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Thanks.

Sometimes we speak of what has been done by hypocites as if it is an excuse for rejecting Jesus as if there is no Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the ultimate witness. All men are spoken tovwithin by Him. Hevdraws... Convicts... Glorifies Jesus as the I Am of God. Our ministry is to bear witness with, thru Him. God does the rest. We do not preach good works. We preach Jesus and encourage good worjs. We do not judge the works of others.

I am He that tries the reins and the hearts.

We are not entitled to say if you dou this or that but dont receive Him you safe. We can say, God knows every heart and it will all b revealed in the day.

We are to declare the gospel. Christ crucified and Christ risen, Jesus Christ is Lord.... The name above every name. The rest is up to God.

We expose the works of darkness by being light in the Light. All will b judged. No one will b excluded, but many adversaries will b subjected thru kolassis and many who invoke His name will b found false and some merely wood hay and stubblish.

All these things are above our paygrade. We are called to bear witness to our Lord and Savior Jesus and walk in His way. Only He, by His Spirit baptizes into the one body.  While God is dealing with every soul on earth, everday in many ways, we are the called out ones in His name. Heralds of a coming kingdom, gathering disciples in His name.

 :thumbsup:

Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 06:35:12 PM
So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

See I think where our main difference lies is in what we consider to be salvation. I consider salvation to be an actual being set free from sin and (spiritual) death. (Like in the here and now, experientially, not simply upon physical death.) What brings about that salvation, experientially, is faith in the Truth. And certainly when one has faith in the Truth (being led by the Spirit), their "works" will show it.

I do not see the Father as counting faith or works as "good", unless they are in the Truth, and He only considers them to be " good" because they set His captive beloved children free. A person can "love their neighbor" (in falsehood, trying to be "righteous") and be as sinful inside as a devil worshipper. The " works" are just filthy garments, done from an impure motive. In my opinion, God does not get angry at us for any of it because, as Jesus stated, we "do not know what we do". We are so blinded by our religious beliefs and the fear of hell that we do all of these things out of impure motives, to save our own behinds, rather than out of true hearts of compassion for our neighbors. (I am not saying all Christians do this, I am speaking of those that do. I know by experience because I belonged to this group for a good number of years. It wasn't until God set me free from the fear of Him and of hell that I was able to truly open my heart to Him again, and experience His love, for myself and all others. He is still working these things out in me, and I am so thankful for His salvation!!)

Jab I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion?  :dontknow:

What I'm saying is, the Spirit of Christ is the Word of God, is the Light within each man, whom we all choose to either obey or deny. And that religion often calls us to deny His Voice in favor of tradition.

because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 08:34:27 PM
Jab I don't see how you are coming to that conclusion?  :dontknow:

What I'm saying is, the Spirit of Christ is the Word of God, is the Light within each man, whom we all choose to either obey or deny. And that religion often calls us to deny His Voice in favor of tradition.

I see..so your interpretation of knowing Christ is that He's already abiding in all, we just have to listen to "the Voice", and whether we obey  that voice or not (works, love) is the answer?  We fundamentally disagree then, as I don't believe "the light that lights every man" means your (apparent) interpretation.  I don't believe other scripture, taken in context, bears out that's the case.   As I don't believe everyone already knows God or has Jesus (in a saving way) until they're specifically drawn by the Holy Spirit to receive Him (as the scripture says in John 1:12), then I don't generally believe everyone can just follow their conscience and be loving and that equals being a child of God (which only comes through turning to Him specifically as Savior).  Again, there are specific scriptures about receiving Him, calling on HIM, knowing Who He is, not some vague notion of just "listening to a voice within".  (IMO) 

Quote from: jabcat on July 01, 2015, 08:22:23 PM
Im asking for some clarity here.   Unless Gary tells me otherwise, this is a site that believes calling on the name of the Lord, having faith in the crucified and resurrected Jesus is the only way to the Father (as Jesus said).     And we are called to be witness to that - the Good News.      Some will be given faith to do so in this life, the rest when they stand before Him (Victorious Gospel).  Other doctrines such as works, other aspects such as the parables about loving, gaining or losing rewards, etc., are of course important things - WITHIN the context of firstly having been drawn by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of faith to believe in Him as Savior - but are not beneficial for confusing the issue of knowing Jesus as Savior. 

Sheila and Lomarah, you both seem to be making a case for other ways to salvation.


If not, please clarify.  If so, please explain how you reconcile these scriptures with your belief.

"If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

Thanks.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 08:35:49 PM
because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think anyone's "arguing" that.  I don't see anyone disagreeing with that...more so, how to know Him.  Is it vague, or do the scriptures clearly tell us how (quoted above)?  And if so, I believe anything else just confuses the issue.

What I am hearing is. Voice. Truth. Light. Spirit. Love.

Beautiful.

All these things are in the world by Jesus Christ right?

Do we all acclaim His Lordship here?

We have ALL proclaimed that we believe that all will be reconciled, GATHERED TOGETHER INTO ONE IN CHRIST.

Not through some nebulous lovetruthvoicelight but rather each in their own order as everknee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord the the glory of God the Father.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 08:35:49 PM
because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

He welcomed the prodigal son home after he repented and returned to his father, not because he was a good person his whole life.

I guess I need to ask then. If someone believes that all humanity is in Christ, and that He is in all humanity, and is the Savior of all; and also believes that one must believe that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Him as Master in order to be saved, that they would not be welcome to share their understanding here on this message board?

Ronen

I think that the message of this board is that Jesus is saving all, gathering all into the all in all. All are not yet saved...gathered. They will be saved...gathered each in there own order. If all were already saved, there wiuld b no need to offer a warning to adversaries, as Jesus and the apostles did.

There is a veil yet to be torn. The gospel is tearing it, thru the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This the message of the board and it is up to the moderators to decide when duscussion becones disputation of these basic facts upon which we stand. We exercize a lot of leeway in discussion, but disputation of the need for salvation abd continuing sanctification as diciples is where we draw the line. That is how I c it.James, as senior moderator can weigh in on that.

I guess, for me, I just see much misunderstanding oftentimes of what each is saying, and not so much an outright disputation of truth. We use certain familiar words and instantly someone reads a certain aspect into that word that the poster did not have in mind and disagrees, when there is nothing to disagree about...kind of like Yeshua telling others to eat his flesh and drink his blood or to tear down the temple and he would rebuild it in three days, without taking the time to explain exactly what he meant...he seemingly disputed truth and fact, yet we, on the other side, know otherwise.

We all know pretty well what we mean when we say something. The challenge is sharing the same on an impersonal message board where you cannot see the person and you are limited to text on a page.

Ronen

 :thumbsup:
I certainly agree.
Most of us are probably guilty of this.
I find that often some members do not bother to really read an entire post and jump in  to comment.
Not criticizing - just and observation  :mshrug:

Quote from: eaglesway on July 01, 2015, 11:28:20 PM
I think that the message of this board is that Jesus is saving all, gathering all into the all in all. All are not yet saved...gathered. They will be saved...gathered each in there own order. If all were already saved, there wiuld b no need to offer a warning to adversaries, as Jesus and the apostles did.

There is a veil yet to be torn. The gospel is tearing it, thru the light of the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This the message of the board and it is up to the moderators to decide when duscussion becones disputation of these basic facts upon which we stand. We exercize a lot of leeway in discussion, but disputation of the need for salvation abd continuing sanctification as diciples is where we draw the line. That is how I c it.James, as senior moderator can weigh in on that.

You said it like it is.

Quote from: lomarah on July 01, 2015, 08:32:29 PM

Quote from: Seth on July 01, 2015, 06:35:12 PM
So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

See I think where our main difference lies is in what we consider to be salvation. I consider salvation to be an actual being set free from sin and (spiritual) death. (Like in the here and now, experientially, not simply upon physical death.) What brings about that salvation, experientially, is faith in the Truth. And certainly when one has faith in the Truth (being led by the Spirit), their "works" will show it.

I do not see the Father as counting faith or works as "good", unless they are in the Truth, and He only considers them to be " good" because they set His captive beloved children free. A person can "love their neighbor" (in falsehood, trying to be "righteous") and be as sinful inside as a devil worshipper. The " works" are just filthy garments, done from an impure motive. In my opinion, God does not get angry at us for any of it because, as Jesus stated, we "do not know what we do". We are so blinded by our religious beliefs and the fear of hell that we do all of these things out of impure motives, to save our own behinds, rather than out of true hearts of compassion for our neighbors. (I am not saying all Christians do this, I am speaking of those that do. I know by experience because I belonged to this group for a good number of years. It wasn't until God set me free from the fear of Him and of hell that I was able to truly open my heart to Him again, and experience His love, for myself and all others. He is still working these things out in me, and I am so thankful for His salvation!!)

I don't find too much to disagree with in your above post. I absolutely believe in the same view of salvation as you and how works pertain to it for the BELIEVER. My difference with you would be if you are saying that belief an Jesus can be accomplished through living a good life for the UNBELIEVER. That the unbeliever can know him without knowing him is where we disagree.

Quote from: sheila on July 01, 2015, 08:35:49 PM
because 'bottom line" it's a free gift...that is the only way it's a 'sure' thing.   and I have faith that the salvation

of ALL men is a sure thing.  anything else..and we can be 'snatched' from His hand. We're bought and

paid for with His blood.He has the legal right to raise up all men in His incorruptible image.

   doesn't matter if 'elder' brother's are offended when He welcomes the prodigal's home. that those who

were dead are found ALIVE! doesn't matter that the churches object when He makes over those former

sinners that they condemned to eternal torture. either.

Sheila,
I love this post. 
Your grand daughter, my daughter, at this point in time don't believe, however we have faith that this will change.
He is the savior of All.  One day they will enjoy 'life' when He draws them like He has drawn us, and their knee will bow and their tongue will confess, and He will be their God, and they will be His people. Amen.
Pat

Gee, it's been a while since I posted here. I haven't used an emoticon in years, I think I'll try one now. :HeartThrob:

I thought I would briefly let folks who are posting on this thread know what got this whole discussion board and the Tentmaker site going many years ago. Some of you may have read my testimony on http://tentmaker.org/testimonials/GaryAmirault.html

Believe me, there is a lot more I could share about how our Father and Creator got a hold of this former atheist than what is in that long testimonial. Anyway, when our Father transformed me in 1985, He plainly revealed Himself to me through His Son, Jesus, Yeshua, Iesus, Son of Man, Son of God. I experienced a love that is indescribable, a love that truly loves one's enemies. I was not introduced to a Buddha, Krishna, Great Spirit, Allah through a prophet named Mohammed. It was all about the One who died, was buried and rose again to "draw all mankind to Himself" and to set creation from from its bondage to corruption.

The Christian Bible contains a story that is phenomenal if one has ears to hear and eyes to see. Our Father is presently taking out a people from the Gentiles for His Name's sake. God only knows what happens in the next phase of His plan to bring all of mankind to immortality and incorruption. I'm sure it will be exciting and awesome. Anyway, I felt it was needful at this time to express briefly my views on God and His plan of redemption.

Tentmaker is focused on the Revelation of our heavenly Father through His Son, Jesus the Chosen One. That is what all the articles are about. That is what all the books are about. That is what all the videos and audios are all about. And that is the direction I ask the moderators of this board to keep the discussion focused on.

It is easy for people from all walks of life to express all kinds of beliefs. And the internet has many places to visit that express many viewpoints. Tentmaker discussion forum is Jesus-centered. The word "sin" is to fall short; to aim at a target and miss, fall short. My experience with Him (Jesus) and my understanding of Scriptures reveals Jesus to me as the Savior of all mankind who will restore all things, who will draw all mankind to His Father and ours. He will subdue all enemies the last one being death and then He will deliver creation to our Father that He (your Father) may be all in all. I truly believe that. I truly believe that THIS Father loves each and everyone of you who are reading this post with a love that your physical body is incapable of holding. I've experienced so much of His love that I thought I was going to bust! That is why you will one day receive a new spiritual body and mind. Our present body cannot hold all He has for us. We will all become one in Christ. I realize that some of you have not received this revelation and understanding. (I was an atheist through the age of 37.) So those of you who do not see this or do not agree, please understand, the moderators are moderating this forum on my behalf. And they do a wonderful job. Please make their jobs easy. There are thousands of sites on the internet that are open to discuss anything and everything, spiritual or otherwise. Tentmaker is not one of those. Thanks for your understanding. The Christian Scriptures say that our Father is Unfailing Love and that love is and was expressed on a tree outside of Jerusalem. Meet Him there. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind to Myself. This He spoke signifying what manner of death He should die." John 12:32, 33. Friend, He really was resurrected on the third day.

Quote from: Gary Amirault on July 03, 2015, 02:12:24 AM
There are thousands of sites on the internet that are open to discuss anything and everything, spiritual or otherwise. Tentmaker is not one of those. Thanks for your understanding. The Christian Scriptures say that our Father is Unfailing Love and that love is and was expressed on a tree outside of Jerusalem. Meet Him there. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind to Myself. This He spoke signifying what manner of death He should die." John 12:32, 33. Friend, He really was resurrected on the third day.

Thank you, Gary.

Beautiful.....so glad to be here.

   Greetings to all ,
  I enjoyed   Gary's video  and agree with all of it ..

I love Jesus Christ everyone knows   me knows it is truth   as well as  Shelia Holly and others     whom confess Jesus Christ as their savior .


  I know every knee   will bow and confess to JESUS CHRIST  seeing him face to face  ......

  I know when we die    in the mortal  and corruptible body [being death itself ]     this physical death   , it is by no means the end of LIFE


For me , as I can  try to  explain  , those like    preachers and teachers   of salvation    , still lack the fullness of the LOVE OF GOD   in them

   To REALLY  know God is to love Him and we have   His Spirit  and the Spirit of Christ as a   HOLY THING   within us   and  Spirit of truth  is  speaking through  us .

Romans   8  9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I do believe in the  power of Gods Spirit which is Love   and sending His Son is the very proof God loves us,    in the here and now   and do not have to literally die    a physical death  to      receive   in Christ now His body of LIFE being Spiritual  and new creatures in Christ being the anointing   , that means separated and set apart  for Gods  use  and  has  victory over death      already .

Every form of death     ,  being the powers and principalities  seated in high places of this world and its wisdom    , that is in our own carnal  minds and hearts  seated throne ]  that deceives it ...........

ITS always been about the LOVE    the very core of      the gospel of Jesus Christ when you limit the LOVE OF GOD S  GRACE 

to only a few or yourselves     this amazing grace  and leave everyone else out in the cold , this is close to blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT  to me the Very SPIRIT OF TRUTH

I personally  , and this is my belief  so far   .as be within me     GOD IS THE VERY SOURCE OF LOVE , no one can LOVE like God does  , unless they do have the   Spirit of God in Christ and everyone that has already been gathered in Christ already being the HOLY SPIRIT   OF ONENESS  , COMPLETENESS  and perfection
  and they are  as ONE  teaching us   ALL NOW     
     
When  Jesus went back to the    High place  with  the  Father as he was sent   from above   ,  to this lower place
where the wisdom of this world is  earthly sensual and devilish  and using the carnal minds ,which is death/corruption ,  as still    and  ruling  and reigning   being kings of   the earth  types  in those high places of the earth , JESUS CHRIST IS STILL     the LORD OF lords over them  or the Master of the masters       

We know  because God has though His Spirit of truth established this  great Loving grace   that covers all  sin and error   by His own work and ways though the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ
  because
By Him and though Him  all things were made ,  Can He not do as he wants with His own things ?   


John 1 ...2He was in the beginning with God.

3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men

COLL1 Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
    He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
    in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
    and the things we can't see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
    Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
    and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
    which is his body.
He is the beginning,
    supreme over all who rise from the dead.
    So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
    was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
    everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
    by means of Christ's blood on the cross.
21 This includes you who were once far away from God. You were his enemies, separated from him by your evil thoughts and actions.

22 Yet now he has reconciled you to himself through the death of Christ in his physical body.

As a result, he has brought you into his own presence, and you are holy and blameless as you stand before him without a single fault.

23 But you must continue to believe this truth and stand firmly in it.

Don't drift away from the assurance you received when you heard the Good News.

The Good News has been preached all over the world, and I, Paul, have been appointed as God's servant to proclaim it.



This  has convinced me  , being so small and  insignificant  and ordinary   in every way  , that GODS LOVE  will overcome  all things though Jesus Christ

and there will be nothing or no one whom can alter    this trust in God and His love for all mankind  , the incorruptible  and invisible  and yet  more real than any image  man ever made in his own mind against Him !
the   corruptible   image     has been shattered   and scattered to dust       and has put on Christ     the    incorruptible      Image of God   our Holy Rock of savlation   for all mankind

I just believe until   you can truly  understand   deep in your heart   the  depths of Gods love    there will always be a need for more and more of Him
and we are to keep praying for  those   whom  lack   the Love of God in their hearts  to the full and keep us also in that same LOVE OF GOD    growing in truth and grace   being    found    in  Jesus Christ  our testimony .



https://www.facebook.com/gary.amirault.1/videos/10205272663608294/?pnref=story

A lot of life in that post Rose, beautiful. (If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.)  :HeartThrob:

I haven't meant to ruffle any feathers and I certainly love my Yeshua, more than ever. I do believe that all things are saved through Christ. And it makes no difference to me what anyone else believes in the sense that you are all my brothers and sisters, regardless of whatever differences! As He sets us all free from sin and death through His Love, may we "bear with one another in Love".  :HeartThrob:

Amen...

I love the whole concept of mercy and forgiveness.
That only Jesus and the work of the cross reveals.

We all love the message of mercy and forgiveness, but this thread has been about whether there is salvation in any other Way.

Of course- Loving Jesus and being filled with His Spirit and mercy is the key to lifting up His name and glorifying God before men, but...

Confusing love and mercy with finding God through the alternate religions and philosophies of the world is not love and mercy or forgiveness. It is deception.

I have read every post thoroughly, as I usually do. I have responded as one who is not always sure what people are trying to say- because terminology varies.

But once I get the feeling that folks are not coming out clearly I will typically provoke the issue to get clear responses, because we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord here and salvation through His cross and His name. We are not universalists in the sense that all faiths, or many faiths, lead to reconciliation and union with God. We do not believe all are already saved, altho we do believe the provision for the salvation of all is already made- all being gathered in through the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Of course there is wisdom in alternate religions and philosophies. The adversary is not stupid. We see from the garden, and the mount of temptation, that he operates by mixing truth with lies in order to undermine the the word of God.

We proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and if we take a stand for that, then we start to here all about the love of God- as if standing for Jesus as Lord and against Budhism or Hinduism or Taoism is somehow contrary to the love of God. I know God loves everyone. He loves Budhists- but He does not love Budhism or the distorted view of God it portrays or the false world view it defines.


Paul was a great lover of God and man, and fierce defender and teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the face of every attempt to undermine the simplicity of the gospel and the glory of God in Messiah Jesus. He brought all things back to Jesus as Lord and Christ crucified, because that is the fountainhead of love, the Lamp upon the lampstand, the Day.

I also like to keep in tune with the Original Post, and keep the subject close to it.

Some are very uncomfortable with the idea of kolassis(corrective punishment) or the judgment of the wicked and the wrath to come. Their discomfort is with the scriptures themselves, because the scriptures, through Jesus and the apostles and prophets testify to these things, so we warn men as well as win them, becoming all things to all men that by all means we might win some- some saving with mercy, some saving with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And this is all love and it is all from God the Father who made Jesus the cornerstone and the plumbline.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Quote from: lomarah on July 03, 2015, 07:14:44 PM
A lot of life in that post Rose, beautiful. (If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.)  :HeartThrob:

I haven't meant to ruffle any feathers and I certainly love my Yeshua, more than ever. I do believe that all things are saved through Christ. And it makes no difference to me what anyone else believes in the sense that you are all my brothers and sisters, regardless of whatever differences! As He sets us all free from sin and death through His Love, may we "bear with one another in Love".  :HeartThrob:

  We know you do  hon!!   love you Holly !   :HeartThrob:

   GOD is Love  and   is the  answer to every question and   solution to every problem  , one day all will Know Him   ,  what a joy that will be  :dsunny:

Quote from: eaglesway on July 04, 2015, 12:52:17 AM
We all love the message of mercy and forgiveness, but this thread has been about whether there is salvation in any other Way.

Of course- Loving Jesus and being filled with His Spirit and mercy is the key to lifting up His name and glorifying God before men, but...

Confusing love and mercy with finding God through the alternate religions and philosophies of the world is not love and mercy or forgiveness. It is deception.

I have read every post thoroughly, as I usually do. I have responded as one who is not always sure what people are trying to say- because terminology varies.

But once I get the feeling that folks are not coming out clearly I will typically provoke the issue to get clear responses, because we proclaim Jesus Christ as Lord here and salvation through His cross and His name. We are not universalists in the sense that all faiths, or many faiths, lead to reconciliation and union with God. We do not believe all are already saved, altho we do believe the provision for the salvation of all is already made- all being gathered in through the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Of course there is wisdom in alternate religions and philosophies. The adversary is not stupid. We see from the garden, and the mount of temptation, that he operates by mixing truth with lies in order to undermine the the word of God.

We proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and if we take a stand for that, then we start to here all about the love of God- as if standing for Jesus as Lord and against Budhism or Hinduism or Taoism is somehow contrary to the love of God. I know God loves everyone. He loves Budhists- but He does not love Budhism or the distorted view of God it portrays or the false world view it defines.


Paul was a great lover of God and man, and fierce defender and teacher of the gospel of Jesus Christ in the face of every attempt to undermine the simplicity of the gospel and the glory of God in Messiah Jesus. He brought all things back to Jesus as Lord and Christ crucified, because that is the fountainhead of love, the Lamp upon the lampstand, the Day.

I also like to keep in tune with the Original Post, and keep the subject close to it.

Some are very uncomfortable with the idea of kolassis(corrective punishment) or the judgment of the wicked and the wrath to come. Their discomfort is with the scriptures themselves, because the scriptures, through Jesus and the apostles and prophets testify to these things, so we warn men as well as win them, becoming all things to all men that by all means we might win some- some saving with mercy, some saving with fear hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

And this is all love and it is all from God the Father who made Jesus the cornerstone and the plumbline.

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

  I totally agree John

We are sooooo  blessed , God is God  and though Jesus Christ will  all things be reconciled...

...4for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses. 5We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete....

Isaiah 2:11
The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; the LORD alone will be exalted in that day.

Jeremiah 23:29
"Is not my word like fire," declares the LORD, "and like a hammer that breaks a rock in pieces?

2 Corinthians 9:13
Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

2 Corinthians 11:20
In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face.

Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.


Lots of reasons to rejoice   in the victory of the Lord Jesus Christ       :HeartThrob:

 Brother's, I never meant in anyway,shape or form..that I  ever thought that there is any other way

for salvation but through Jesus Christ. HE IS the Resurrection. I reasoned..any Indians,Buddhas' etc that have

not had the opportunity to know Jesus in this life[if not called in this life/or lived in area/time never heard of

Him] that had love for their fellowman..in the resurrection would have little problem in bowing and confessing

to Him.  Because we know His nature..and He is not a respector of persons,and looks on the heart of people


  I have full trust in His judgements..and the people of the resurrection/when He makes His judgements

known..will learn righteousness.


     I just got caught up in our conversations and spoke my personal pov...and not in clarity at that or detail.

  I didn't address it further because I didn't want to 'stir it up again' or seem to being trying to justify myself in

it........

    I know there is only  one way we are saved..and by whom. I do not nor ever have thought that.........

  all roads lead to God.

   I do believe that Father knows each and everyones individual circumstances far better than I or anyone else

  and I totally trust and know that He will have them saved and made into new creatures.

                             peace and  :HeartThrob:

   

 :dsunny:

 
      :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on July 04, 2015, 03:06:35 AM
  I didn't address it further because I didn't want to 'stir it up again' or seem to being trying to justify myself in  it........

It is good to know how to argue a point for the sake of heaven...

It is better to recognize how to end one.

How refreshing to read of someone recognizing that better recognition.  :HeartThrob: רעיתי אחותי (My dearest sister)

Ronen

ty  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: sheila on July 04, 2015, 03:06:35 AM
Brother's, I never meant in anyway,shape or form..that I  ever thought that there is any other way

for salvation but through Jesus Christ. HE IS the Resurrection. I reasoned..any Indians,Buddhas' etc that have

not had the opportunity to know Jesus in this life[if not called in this life/or lived in area/time never heard of

Him] that had love for their fellowman..in the resurrection would have little problem in bowing and confessing

to Him.  Because we know His nature..and He is not a respector of persons,and looks on the heart of people


  I have full trust in His judgements..and the people of the resurrection/when He makes His judgements

known..will learn righteousness.


      :HeartThrob:

   

I agree with you entirely about that, and If it seemed I was speaking directly to you, I definitely wasnt :o)

Sometimes we lose track of the OP.

That is what I was responding to. The original poster posited that perhaps people in older times knew God through Zeus, and that perhaps Jesus was the prime deity of deities.


As I moderate the thread, the context is set by the original post.

People come and go in these threads, and perhaps not having the responsibility of moderation, do not read the context set in the original post and follow it through.

No one need to take my word for it, but I will state that I never, as much as is possible within me, am addressing my statements to a personal poster- I am responding to the context of the thread.

In a thread like "Just believing...." where Seth and I have had a long intense exchange- I am still trying to address the original post and the context of the thread rather than Seth in particular.

So..... I was speaking generally of pluralism, which is the crux of the original post, and rejecting that. I agree that God judges people who have never heard the gospel by the secrets of their hearts- and have taught that for over 20 years.

But the original post was not about that, and the original poster, in my spirit and perception-  is in danger of being carried away from the purity of the gospel by a deception.

It is therefore of paramount importance to me that in a thread such as this, not to get carried away as we usually do, running far afield into sublime aspects of God's overall judgment, but to stay on point AND BRING IT HOME to the original question, which has ramifications for the asker.

I would not usually even bring any of that up, but there are a few folks that seem to think this is about ideology or doctrine or pure contentiousness and are missing the point of the jeopardy that the original poster's hypothesis presents for any who would accept it.

I proclaim Jesus Christ without any shame or apology. i trust His wisdom and mercy and justice as a magnificent many faceted diadem of glory and ultimate redemption for all. But all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God are hidden in Him- and I know you also believe this.

It is simple for me, in that context, to insist on the unique position of Jesus and proclaim it, as a general principle in response to the OP :o)

This tent is truly a blessing. All giving, sharing, learning and in humility.

Psa_84:4  Blessed are they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah.

Psa_133:1   Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

ty EW   of course I had no idea.. :friendstu:


     jotekay;   Yes it is good.  God is soooo GOOD! :girlheart:

I agree with you 100% EW. It is also interesting the the OP poster never did get involved with this long and rambling (IMO) thread.
:Peace2:

Hello people,

I thought I was gonna post an update.

In the beginning of this year it occured to me that many people have spiritual experiences. Including near-death experiences where they see Muhammad or Buddha and not Jesus.

I do not really believe in Zeus or Allah or Buddha, but something must have gripped these people and went with them through life. I believe it is the Spirit of God who is free and who talks in different languages so to speak. That is how muslims or buddhists can do good too because they yield to inputs of the Spirit of God that nudges them and creates the good that they enjoy.

But if you look through google images of Zeus, they are nearly universally ugly and seem cruel in their appearance. That is the thing with idolatry, there are no good idols and they do not have power. But when these people prayed to Zeus it could have been that the Spirit of God answered them and in any way these people too were loved by God and cared for. God just could not get through their idolatrous minds yet.

But if you go and research these old-time gods then you must necessarily try to contact them. It does not usually work but God can work an answer even if you have directed the prayer to Zeus. And there were those Zeus worshipers in history that did not seek an idol but a spiritual presence. That is how we get to even old deities like Zeus having to contribute their share to the image of God we have. Only that the real God is the Spirit and not someone sitting on the Olymp.

This is what I wanted to say. God bless you!

 :cloud9: @ Eaglesway....I've only made it thru page 1 so far but something here you posted jumped out at me in a way I've never seen it before.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law , and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

What hit me was, to perish without the law, means means they are not accountable for the "small stuff" because until the law came we knew not what sin was. Their conscience would literally convict them of "big sins" like murder, but if they didn't do any "big sins", it appears to me they would not be held accountable because of ignorance. So if they do "right" according to the law they don't even know, it saws they will be justified as doers of the law, even though they don't know the law, because on that day God will judge the secrets (motives of the heart) of men through Christ Jesus.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It looks like another really good reason to believe in UR to me.....Blessings....

 :cloud9: Made it thru it all....wow....what a thread. Can I just say, Love Wins?  :laughing7: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on August 24, 2015, 10:01:27 PM
:cloud9: @ Eaglesway....I've only made it thru page 1 so far but something here you posted jumped out at me in a way I've never seen it before.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law , and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

What hit me was, to perish without the law, means means they are not accountable for the "small stuff" because until the law came we knew not what sin was. Their conscience would literally convict them of "big sins" like murder, but if they didn't do any "big sins", it appears to me they would not be held accountable because of ignorance. So if they do "right" according to the law they don't even know, it saws they will be justified as doers of the law, even though they don't know the law, because on that day God will judge the secrets (motives of the heart) of men through Christ Jesus.

Do you see what I'm getting at here? It looks like another really good reason to believe in UR to me.....Blessings....

Yes I do. Romans 2(of course) is a further amplification of Romans 1. There is a law of God that is written in every heart. it is the highest law, the law of love. IMO that is the conscience of man. A friend of mine used to express it like this:

Everyone will be judged by the light they received.