question

[Dandelion]

I agree with jabcat and eaglesway.  :iagree:

In everything, there needs to be some boundaries. Without limits, we destroy the essence of what is established as necessary, for the concept, situation, etc. to be functional and fulfill the role it was meant to.

Another one of my analogies.....if you have a fan you want to plug into the electric socket, and the outlet is dead.....without electricity.......it doesn't matter how long you leave the plug there, what you do to the fan, and so on.  The fan will never work, in that socket. If you don't plug it into the socket, with the electricity, the fan will stay still, forever.

The same is true of us. Without Jesus, we are nothing. There is no 'source of power' in any of the other faiths, because Jesus has saved us, and made us a new creation. He alone has come from the Father, and sent us the Holy Spirit. Emmanuel......God is with us. 

Jesus is the Light.....without Him, all is darkness. There is no other Light. 

:dsunny:

[sheila]

well,I'm still trying to figure out how I got the aspersion of being UU placed on my head? :dontknow:

  I've went back and read my posts..and I don't see it.

[Seth]

I think we could all agree that, regardless of how each of us may understand this, that only those who put their faith in Christ are justified.

[lomarah]

Yet it seems that some know Him without "knowing" Him, and that others who profess to "know" Him truly do not, yes?

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord...'"

Can a person know the Word of God, the Light of God who enlightens EVERY man, without necessarily "professing Jesus" (the IDEA of Jesus, IMO a HEAD KNOWLEDGE, rather than a TRUE KNOWING or, for lack of a better term, "HEART KNOWLEDGE")? Can a person who "professes Jesus" be severely deceived and evil hearted and in major need of His salvation? I believe He told us so Himself.  :2c:

In my opinion many people reject Christianity because they see hate and hypocrisy among it's followers. Why would they even take an interest in trying to understand who Jesus is when they see what they do among His proclaimed followers? And yet they follow the Voice within, that tells them to love God (or Holy Spirit/Great Spirit) and love thy neighbor even as they love themselves. Truly, THAT is the right Voice.  :2c:

[jabcat]

Hi Lomarah.  Much of what you said was in the form of questions, here are my responses, in my opinion.

Yet it seems that some know Him without "knowing" Him

I don't think what "seems" is truly the way to know.  What do the scriptures say?  I believe they say "no".

and that others who profess to "know" Him truly do not, yes?

"Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord...'"

yes..one must be born again, not just have a head knowledge or a false confession.  The Holy Spirit must draw to Jesus and God must give faith to believe on Him as Savior.

Can a person know the Word of God, the Light of God who enlightens EVERY man, without necessarily "professing Jesus"

I believe the scriptures say "no".  Paul said to tell people who He is, so they can call on Him.  And that if they don't know, how can they call.

Why would Paul say these things?  "If  you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." and  "for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.  How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard?"

In my opinion many people reject Christianity because they see hate and hypocrisy among it's followers.

I personally think that's often either just an excuse or a trick of the devil.  Also, many who aren't believers, and some who profess to be believers, look for what they want to see;  i.e., "they're no better than me, so why do I need to be a believer?".  It gives them an "out" (they think).  Also, what's often termed "hate" really isn't.  It can be a convenient label to distract and "prove" one's reason for disagreeing.

And yet they follow the Voice within, that tells them to love God (or Holy Spirit/Great Spirit) and love thy neighbor even as they love themselves. Truly, THAT is the right Voice.  :2c:

I'm not saying the "right voice" doesn't say most or all of the above.  But I believe the right voice truly says, "come to Jesus".

[Seth]

Lomarah, just to add a bit to James' reply, if there can be knowing God without knowing God, and having faith in Jesus without having faith in Jesus, can't there be loving our neighbors without loving our neighbors? Couldn't an unloving Christian apply your principles across the board?

[lomarah]

I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

[lomarah]

In fact, (sticking with the train of thought in my reply to Seth), I believe that is part of what we are being saved from. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. GOOD AND evil. When we act "good" for the sake of appearing righteous before God or men, it is still an impure motive. (Evil, on the other hand, is obviously.... evil.  :laugh: ) The tree of life is the pure motive of (true) Love.

[jabcat]

I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

:)

I know it's a difficult topic, and I don't have every answer to every question about it either.  I just encourage Christ crucified, risen again.

I've actually struggled with some of what (I think) you're bringing up, and John/EW and I even had some minor disagreement on it in the past.  I think we understand each other better now :)  What I'm getting at is, I THINK the Romans 2 passage about conscience either excusing or accusing/Jesus judging by the heart touches on where you're coming from.  After time and further thought, I have come to understand it as John expresses here;

Actually, I think a lot of UR leaning people are still afraid of hellism, and how God will judge the ignorant, but imo there is no need for such concern. God is just and faithful and knows every heart. Those who rejoice to see Him when they awake before Him in the Day will immediatley bow the knee and confess His Lordship. That is when they will be "saved". The only way to recieve salvation in this age, and become a citizen of the kingdom of God, is through the name of Jesus Christ. "For there is no other name given among men whereby you must be saved."There will be NO question about what name is the name above every name come the Day.

I don't believe someone living a good life, being a good person, loving people, etc., means they "know" God.  I believe the only way to do that is through direct relationship with Jesus the Savior, died, rose again, revealed.  But, as John says above, I believe those who follow what light they have, even though still "lost" in this life, will do just as John said above;  their heart will have been prepared to immediately recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior (because every knee must bow, every tongue confess) when they stand before Him.  They will be "excused" (not as in passing Jesus, but as in being fertile ground made ready for His Seed to be implanted in them).   

On the other hand, maybe some (God's the judge) who either thought they knew Him due to their good works, own [self]-righteousness, etc., or maybe are just pretending or deceived, etc., may have to go through more correction before they recognize Jesus as Lord and are finally saved.  (their consciences accusing rather than excusing).  That's the only way I personally can understand this right now, as I don't believe anything but coming through the Door can bring us to the Father. 

Thanks for your kind reply and for being patient with my struggling attempts to explain my thoughts.  Blessings.

[sheila]

Holly, your posts brought to mind the parable of the 'good' Samaritan. Of course Jesus also said ,'Ye Samaritans

worship what ye know not."  Then we have the examples of the Priests and Levites..trying to be ' ritually pure'

   who failed in showing love to their neighbor.

     

[Seth]

I'm not sure what you mean Seth. If you mean are there people who fake loving their neighbors because they feel it's the Christian thing to do (rather than an actual true love from the heart) then 100% yes.

Jab I know we disagree on the issue at hand and that is OK by me.  :friendstu: Just throwing my own current point of view out there. It is by no means complete nor authoritative.  :laughing7:

What I am saying is that if we say that people can have faith WITHOUT having faith, how far can we take that concept where a thing is, but it's not?

For example, in the novel 1984, the ministry of War was called the ministry of Love. The thing is named its opposite until language essentially has lost meaning. The way I see it is that if someone has faith in Christ, they have faith in Christ. If they don't they don't.

If you say that someone has faith in Christ without having faith in Christ, then it is just as logical to say that a man can love his neighbor without loving his neighbor.

I have no disagreement with you about love/fruit as important, but if you say that people can know God without knowing them because of how they act, you are essentially making works a substitute for actual belief and I cannot go there because I don't see that in the Bible.

[eaglesway]

The good Samaritan is a beautiful parable. It relates to the way God looks upon the hearts of men, and it also is explained in Romans

For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are [k]just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

This has to do with the judgment of all on the great Day.

Where the confusion comes in, imo, is that this has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the declaration of our gospel and the Lordship of Jesus.

We are not called to make alternative pathways to God and justify them by how God will judge the ignorant on the last day. He is the one who judges and says, through Paul to Timothy...

The foundation of God stands firm and is sealed with this inscripton- the Lord knows those who are His and let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity 2 Tim 2:19

In Acts 17 Paul deals with this clealrly....

Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."


If the good Samritan(hypothetically) was there on that day, he would give glory to God and receive the gospel of Jesus. If he never heard it, God will judge the secrets of his heart BY JESUS CHRIST IN THE DAY. That is not for us, it is for HIM. We are not called to say, "So believing what the Samaritans believe is fine, dont get so allup over the name of Jesus, and all that Samaritan idolatry that is going on", and allow the gospel of the kingdom to become an amalgram of six different world views.

There is only one gospel. Only one reconciler. He calls to discipleship, all who are reconciled- but in a wide house there are vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor.

It is not our calling to work out the judgment of others, pro or con. We are called to put an end to ignorance by proclaiming the Lordship of Jesus Christ. God will judge everyone by the secrets of their hearts, including us.

To the one whom much is given much is required.

He who knew his masters will and did it not will be beaten with many stripes, he who did not kno will be beaten with few stripes.

We are called to declare that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. That He has conquered sin and has opened a pathway to righteousness. That His Spirit is given to all who call upon His name in a sincere heart to enable the discipleship unto which we are all called in Him.

The world will hate us for that, and to a great extent they will do so because they have been conditioned to think we are saying EVERYONE ELSE IS GOING TO BURN FOREVER.

Cant blame them really, but it changes nothing. We are still called to proclaim Christ crucified for all, Christ Lord over all, the name above every name.

Any religion or philosophy that rejects this is among the adversaries. This doesnt mean we dont love them, in fact, it means just the opposite. God loves them, Christ died for each and all of them, and we suffer their rejection for the privilege of saving some into the kingdom of heaven and out of the coming wrath.

When we stand for the testimony of Jesus Christ and His name we are willing to suffer as He did, having no ill will towards ANYONE- but still, holding forth the truth- we are loving as He loved, and any love works we do are further testimonials that we are in Him. This is the ministry of reconciliation- not excusing the iniquity of the world and the false religions in it.

This is what it means to be a disciple and an overcomer. Anyone who is ashamed of His name and His Lordship will fall into the world and find they are building wood, hay and stubble at best- if not actually becoming adversaries of the gospel of Jesus Christ- by which He is overcoming the world.

It does no good to look at the lost and find ways to see them as found. They will be found. He will find them. We are to be the city set on a hill so that those who are searching NOW can find a clear beacon to lead them into the refuge.

[sheila]

 well,I really like this post..and I agree with it.And as far as it goes on we trying to justify people...

  whether it's due to ignorance..or stumbling because many follow with acts of loose conduct and cause the truth

of the Gospel to be spoken of abusively.

  when they hate us and the gospel and we can't blame them really[due to so many many things]

we can Pray  'Father forgive them they know Not what they do"


  ps...I feel it does have to do with the gospel[Good Samaritan]  people who know not what they worship

but show love for their neighbor=1/2 of total law written in their hearts. Priests and Levites who love God

=1/2 of total law written on the hearts....to be whole..we need Love of God and love of neighbor both

   the time coming when people worship in spirit and truth

written in our hearts.

[eaglesway]

I agree sheila. the law written upon our hearts is brought to remembrance by the Holy Spirit and we are empowered to love in a new way, having the "love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who is given to us", Rom 5

This law written upon our hearts is the law of love, "a new commandment I give you, but it is not new, it was from the beginning, that you love one another".

So new and not new, meaning, continually renewed as we abide in His light, and walk in fellowship with Him, connected to the vine- and this is not work.... it is just the continuing humility of branches drawing from the Root, and the Root is love, so He says there will be many who will say, "But Lord...." and He will say, "I never knew you"...because the connection to the Root failed at some point and they returned like a dog to its vomit to the self life of hypocrisy and unconcern for their neighbor, even while trumpeting His name.

It is so hard to get believers to define "abiding" and "fruit" and "good works" in terms of love and forgiveness. Forgetting that tho I abstain from certain sins of the flesh that I see in others, if I am haughty or indifferent to the needs and wounds of my fellow humans, I am no better- and especially if I judge anyone as unworthy to be loved and reached out to, because He loved and reached out to every single person from that cross- and is reaching out to them still. :o)

[lomarah]

For me it boils down to, can a person know Jesus/God/Holy Spirit without knowing Him by the same name we know Him by? I believe yes.  Can a person "proclaim Jesus" without actually knowing Him and proclaiming Him in Truth? Yes.

Some call Him Jesus. Some call Him Yeshua. Some call Him Yehova. Some call Him the Great Spirit. Some call Him Love. He died and rose for all. Eventually, I believe, all will know Him as He truly is.

What are we saved from? The scriptures say sin and death. The Pharisees thought they knew God yet Jesus said Satan was their father because they were murderous and hateful and " righteous" in their inward beings. The Samaritan loved his neighbor, and in so doing, loved Christ. (In my opinion.... Whatever you do for the least of these... And yes I realize He says, 'in My name'... But I have a different view of what 'in His name' means than some of you. ;) )

You all know me as Lomarah. Others know me as Holly. To some I've been known as 'Holster'. I/we are one and the same, even though most of you would never recognize me on the street.

[lomarah]

And, in fact, Jesus had the same view apparently.

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy IN YOUR NAME and IN YOUR NAME drive out demons and IN YOUR NAME perform many miracles?'"

And His response is that they are "workers of iniquity", and He knew them not.

[Seth]

Yeah, but he didn't say that those who didn't believe in him did believe in him.  :dontknow:

[Seth]

Also, Jesus didn't deny that they believed in him either. He claimed not to know them. And what people are saying here, and I agree, is that belief is commanded, not to be substituted by being a good guy.

The Bible says that God commands us to Believe in Jesus and love our neighbors. Which of those can we omit in favor of the other?

[lomarah]

The "problem" is, it needs to be done in Spirit and in Truth. The Samaritan had the right Spirit in him. The Pharisees did not.

Anyhow, you disagree with my point of view on this matter, and that is ok. My aim is not to change anyone's beliefs, but just to add my own to the discussion.  :friendstu:

[Seth]

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

[sheila]

Matthew 25;46..because of the 'works' of mercy shown...they get to recieve the Kingdom...nations judgement

  note...they said 'when did we see you?" whoever hates his fellowman is a liar if he says he loves God.


    I find it interesting that they were somewhat taken aback..saying they hadn't seen Him...and here

they were recieving the Kingdom...true love for your fellow man is very valued by God.


   they said they didn't know Him..but He knew them..and seeks such to worship Him


   1 John 4;20  If anyone says 'I love God" yet hates his brother,he is a liar. For anyone who does not

  love his brother whom he has seen,can not love God whom he has not seen.


   the Father seeks such that would worship Him in spirit and truth...and they ARE FOUND OF HIM......

  and recieve the kingdom.

[Seth]

Taking a closer look at the Samaritan parable:

Luke 10
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal (aionios) life?"
27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."

Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

When I look at the parable, it doesn't say that the Samaritan did not believe in Jesus. It doesn't discuss his personal belief. It only reveals his works. Nowhere does Jesus say that the Samaritan can get by without "loving God with all his mind."

It seems pretty clear to me, that this PARABLE means to represent the Gentiles who would be given faith to receive the Spirit and that they would have the Law written in their hearts and a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit by grace THROUGH FAITH (the Jews becoming NEIGHBORS with the Gentiles through joined faith and the Spirit). Those are my thoughts on the parable and what it represents.

[jabcat]

Defending the necessity for faith in Jesus Christ on a Christian site is an interesting experience.

[bushy]

So I guess as long as you have good works, God counts that as good as having belief? So good works are the key here, but not belief and works together? Yes, I do disagree.

Believing and obeying are the same thing.

[Seth]

Matthew 25;46..because of the 'works' of mercy shown...they get to recieve the Kingdom...nations judgement

  note...they said 'when did we see you?" whoever hates his fellowman is a liar if he says he loves God.


    I find it interesting that they were somewhat taken aback..saying they hadn't seen Him...and here

they were recieving the Kingdom...true love for your fellow man is very valued by God.


   they said they didn't know Him..but He knew them..and seeks such to worship Him


   1 John 4;20  If anyone says 'I love God" yet hates his brother,he is a liar. For anyone who does not

  love his brother whom he has seen,can not love God whom he has not seen.


   the Father seeks such that would worship Him in spirit and truth...and they ARE FOUND OF HIM......

  and recieve the kingdom.

Sheila, the sheep and goats parable says that they didn't realize they saw him, not that they didn't believe in him. They wanted to know how the good works they did for others translated into doing it for him, not that they didn't believe in him in the first place.

It's strange to me that you don't see what you are saying  as works based salvation.