question

[anti_nietzsche]

Hello,

recently I've been reading about some older theology works especially from the catholic corner. They often spoke about an "image of God" in our minds that has evolved in time and has been recognized by all religions really - although Christ and His revelation would be the true path to God.

But by this token, could it be said that a Zeus worshiper in the antique times was also knowing God already to some extent? Or that a buddha follower might have a sense of God too already in his own religion?

I must admit that I find other religions rather fascinating lately. Not that Jesus is not the prime deity, it is just that there might be other gods too and Jesus would be their master per his title Lord of Lords. That Jesus is somehow the main deity of the earthly pantheon of deities.

What do you think?

[lomarah]

Many will disagree with you here, but I won't, at least not completely. Words often fail when it comes to describing the things of the Spirit, and it is very easy to misunderstand someone's words, or to see them through your own interpretive lens, missing the true meaning. That is why I say I support your statements, yet cannot say I endorse them completely. (Not to mention our individual view of theology and God changes so drastically over time, which is another reason not to endorse a statement wholeheartedly. ;) )

I will leave you with this statement from Jesus, "I have said, 'Ye are gods.'"

[Lazarus Short]

If you go way, way back in the religion of Egypt, they worshipped a god (little "g") who I won't name per Biblical instructions, but they depicted this god as a ram-headed man, and he made men and women on a potter's wheel, much as the Bible sometimes depicts the God of the Bible doing the same.  The Egyptians kept some concepts of what Noah handed down.

Lao-Tsu wrote the Tao Te Ching, and spoke much in it about the mysterious Tao, and I think he got awfully close to the mark, having had no contact with the Hebrew tradition of Yahweh.  It's only philosophy, but I read his book happily.

The followers of Zoroaster had a theology which in some ways seems to me to be almost (almost!) pre-Christian.

The old, traditional, pictographic writing system of China, if understood properly, tells the story of the early chapters of Genesis.

The Miao people of southern China have handed down the story of Genesis from Adam (the patriarch Dirt) to the Babel dispersion, where their story deviates (as expected) from the Hebrew story.  It's oral tradition, thousands of years old, and they even preserve the names of the patriarchs phonetically, and we can still recognize the names if we go back to the Bible and check.

I think God left His mark in every peoples' collective memories, myths, and belief systems.  He's God, so why shouldn't He?

[eaglesway]

I have studied metaphysics, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, B'hai.....I was seeking in all these things before I was saved. Before I met Jesus. I have continued, for the purpose of awareness and intelligent conversation with people of other faiths, to read about them.

The echoes of our God that are in the ancient religions, such as Buddhism, the Tao Te Ching, and others are (imo) simply truths of wisdom that have been reflected in the creation snce the beginning. We have to remember that before Israel there was nothing we know of that was an "ordained representative of God on earth".

Israel was small, comparatively, and the testimony of the Lampstand was the way in which God dealt with them. Blessing them when they walked in the two great commandments, disciplining them when they fell into idolatry and wantoness.

In the meantime, God had not left the rest of the world completely without testimony, and I can think of three scriptures in particuar that confirm this.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Ro 1

The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
Their line has gone out through all the earth
And their utterances to the end of the world. Ps 19

  For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

In the last portion, Acts 17, we see Paul acknowledges that God has so set up the world that everyone everywhere would be spurred by the evidence of life and creation to grope for Him, and they have, and out of that groping whispers and shadows of truth emerged, as well as echoes of the words of the forfathers such as Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah and Shem.

However, if you look into these religions philosophies you will find, even as in some Christian and Jewish philosophies, among the whispers and shadows, the teachings of elemental spirits, principalities and powers. Teachings about "avatars"(incarnations of God") and perfection achieved through physical, intellectual and spiritual endeavors with no reference to the need for REDEMPTION THROUGH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, without whom and without which, NO HUMAN CAN CROSS THE CHASM INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, the budhist person who found wisdom did not find it from budhism, but from some echoes of the I AM, some whisper from YHWH the Creator, who has OVERLOOKED THE TIMES OF IGNORANCE(put that in your pipe and smoke all you legalists out there ;o). That person will stand before Jesus Christ in the day and I believe he will rejoice to see HIS face and recognize in it the LIGHT of which before he had seen only shadows and the WORD of which before he had heard only the barest whispers.

But now all truth is subsumed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. His name is the name above every name because He was the only begotten son of God, and only He could save the world from chaos and sin.

He is the radiance of the Father's glory and the exact representation of His nature- so what was once evident in creation is now PRE EMINENTLY EVIDENT in Jesus.

If the law was a shadow of Christ, all of these other philosophies and religions are veils to Him now, and what whispers of truth they bear are less than shadows.

Paul nailed it in Acts 17.... WHAT YOU WORSHIP IN IGNORANCE I DECLARE TO YOU.

I am thankful that the Lord Jesus will be revealed to all.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


But everyone will be redeemed by His blood, bow to His Lordship and confess His name to the glory of YHWH.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

There is no other, nor has there ever been any other, through whom we are untied to YHWH the Creator.

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

[Dandelion]

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of our people, 9 are we being questioned today because we've done a good deed for a crippled man? Do you want to know how he was healed? 10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead. 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says,

'The stone that you builders rejected
    has now become the cornerstone.'[c]
12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved." Acts 4:8 - 12

...4"For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me. 5"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other,... Isaiah 45:4-6

"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

John 10 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

10 `Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber;
2 and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep;
3 to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth;
4 and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice;
5 and a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers.'
6 This similitude spake Jesus to them, and they knew not what the things were that he was speaking to them;
7 Jesus said therefore again to them, `Verily, verily, I say to you -- I am the door of the sheep;
8 all, as many as came before me, are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them;
9 I am the door, through me if any one may come in, he shall be saved, and he shall come in, and go out, and find pasture.
10 `The thief doth not come, except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they may have life, and may have [it] abundantly.
11 `I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;
12 and the hireling, and not being a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, doth behold the wolf coming, and doth leave the sheep, and doth flee; and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep;
13 and the hireling doth flee because he is an hireling, and is not caring for the sheep.
14 `I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine,
15 according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep,
16 and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd.
17 `Because of this doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that again I may take it;
18 no one doth take it from me, but I lay it down of myself; authority I have to lay it down, and authority I have again to take it; this command I received from my Father.'

Only one God, IMO. But, I do agree, it is good to know about other people's beliefs, so we can understand them and have an intelligent conversation with them, as eaglesway said.   

:dsunny:

[jabcat]

Amen Dandelion, I agree.  Good post.   :thumbsup:  Scripturally sound.

The echoes of our God that are in the ancient religions are (imo) simply truths of wisdom that have been reflected in the creation snce the beginning.

Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead


However, if you look into these religions philosophies you will find.. no reference to the need for REDEMPTION THROUGH CHRIST CRUCIFIED, without whom and without which, NO HUMAN CAN CROSS THE CHASM INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So, the budhist person who found wisdom did not find it from budhism, but from some echoes of the I AM

But now all truth is subsumed in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Logos, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. His name is the name above every name because He was the only begotten son of God, and only He could save the world from chaos and sin.


There is no other, nor has there ever been any other, through whom we are untied to YHWH the Creator.

:thumbsup:

[lastpost]

I have been asked why preach Christ? I simply answer because only by preaching Christ can anyone understand their God. And by Christ I mean HIM, JESUS CHRIST.

However, my experience in this world, is that some people calling themselves Christians do not preach Christ but they preach their ideology, giving Christ second place - and I personally find the effect of their ideology is to drive a wedge between them and the brothers and sisters their professed Leader has commanded them to love first and foremost - the teaching of men makes matters worse - in my opinion.

As I see it - when death comes - according to my understanding, such Christians find themselves not only in classes for the young, but in remedial classes where they must first unlearn all that they have been conditioned with, before learning about the Love of the Living Christ anew.

One cannot walk in darkness for so long and then immediately stare into the Light.

And perhaps the one that the Christian decided to condemn, although Christ's commandments were followed in thought and deed albeit if in ignorance, is not found to be in such a sad position. It is the case that he who thought he was first is now last, as it were.

That is just my personal understanding.

Peace.

[ed]

 :flamebreath:

Good stuff my friends!

:thumbsup:

[SteveW]

Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c

29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

It seems to make good sense to believe that God in all times and all places, whether through creation or His Spirit, is reaching out to man to draw the to Himself.  Is there anything in scripture to preclude us from believing that He might have informed, moved, even inspired others in various times and places apart from Israel and the Church?  That is an honest question.  All that is true and good in other religions and philosophies, if it is indeed true and good, must surely (based on our belief in UR) only be pointing to, introducing, preparing for, or experiencing the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.  I think the problem is often in the language we, and those of other faiths, use to express these truths.  And the problem might also be that we have so distorted the image (of Jesus) that those of other faiths don't recognize Him whom they have been seeking and experiencing when they encounter him in OUR Christianity.

[rosered]

 

I agree with you Steve W

   Universal    means everything   Gathered into the LIGHT AND LIFE  IN ONE SPIRIT

and it is     called God    , God is fair and just and pure and holy and GOD IS LOVE            :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.'b As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'c

29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead."

It seems to make good sense to believe that God in all times and all places, whether through creation or His Spirit, is reaching out to man to draw the to Himself.  Is there anything in scripture to preclude us from believing that He might have informed, moved, even inspired others in various times and places apart from Israel and the Church?  That is an honest question.  All that is true and good in other religions and philosophies, if it is indeed true and good, must surely (based on our belief in UR) only be pointing to, introducing, preparing for, or experiencing the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus.  I think the problem is often in the language we, and those of other faiths, use to express these truths.  And the problem might also be that we have so distorted the image (of Jesus) that those of other faiths don't recognize Him whom they have been seeking and experiencing when they encounter him in OUR Christianity.

OUR Christianity may certainly be held in question. Western culture, mentality, history has infected Christianity and made it into a mutation, heavy on law at one end, formulaic with grace on the other end. Often ignoring the mystery in the middle. "Christ in you the hope of glory"

But at the same time it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well. I have studied Hinduism, Budhism, B'hai and I can say that they are not prep schools for Christ, altho I believe the Lord will have mercy on many beautiful souls trapped in these cages, and they will be set free when they see His face in the Day- just as will many beautiful souls trapped in legalistic Christian denominations, sects, and cults.

The Lord knows them that are His.

Most of the world's religions are just full of mutation and deception and false images of God. Religion is the primary means by which the adversary blinds/veils people from seeing the Lord Jesus.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[SteveW]

Thank you for bringing that context in Eaglesway.  I guess at first glance my question would be "will God's will (passion, intention) in salvation be thwarted by the god of this world?" and I'm sure you would agree "by no means!!!".

Perhaps the crux of the matter isn't, as you say, that "it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well".  I have sat with and read those of other religions as well, especially on the mystical side, and found their experience and understanding of God to be profound and even very informing of my own experience and understanding of Christianity.  I would suggest that, though I understand many would take great offense, that there is revelation there.  That God is revealing himself to them in their context.

Perhaps the crux of the matter is whether they have "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."  Jesus - his incarnation, his death, his resurrection - is the pivotal point of all history, this is the revelation that they are missing.  It isn't that there isn't revelation, it is that it is missing the culmination of revelation, the mystery of God incarnate in Jesus.  For even the idea of God incarnate in man is profoundly expressed in deep ways in other religions.  If God incarnate, and our being invited into trinitarian fellowship through Jesus has always been God's plan, surely he has been preparing all people for this?  Even familial/marital relationships are a revelation of it.

If something is true in Christianity, and that same truth is embraced, though perhaps with different language and a slightly different understanding in another religion, where did they get that truth?  Did Satan reveal it to them to blind them?  Or did God reveal it to them to draw them close or prepare them?

Did God go to all the trouble to make it so man could find him - even those in nations and times with NO biblical revelation, and make it so that He is not far from ANY of us, with no intention of being found?  Are THOSE people all relegated during this time to the victorious wiles of the evil one? What would it mean for them to "find" him?  Could they do so apart from Christ?

"You must be born again" by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.  So how far can their revelation take them?  How is it that there are Buddhists and Muslims who experientially and practically have more of the fruit of the Spirit and the Love of God in their lives than I do?  I have to admit I can't get my head around how or when this all fits together.  I certainly don't have it figured out.

Interesting thoughts.  Sorry for rambling.

[bushy]

Well Steve, I say thanks for rambling.

It's an interesting topic that I don't know much about but have wondered about. I once saw a prayer that came from an early American Indian tribe and it was pretty much like a christian prayer but referring to the Great Spirit and of course not Jesus because probably they never heard of Him. Also there are many stories of Jesus appearing to Muslims in dreams and it resulted in a changed life. And there is the ISIL soldier that was changed that way. Seeking God results in finding and sometime people find God when they aren't seeking, like Paul. Religion doesn't help including the christian religion except that we have the bible instead of the koran or some other holy book.

I know my opinion on this is partly a reaction against the common thinking that all people that are not christian like us are going to hell, and that all roads do not lead to heaven like us universalists obviously believe.  :sigh:

[eaglesway]

Thank you for bringing that context in Eaglesway.  I guess at first glance my question would be "will God's will (passion, intention) in salvation be thwarted by the god of this world?" and I'm sure you would agree "by no means!!!".

Perhaps the crux of the matter isn't, as you say, that "it can be dangerous to attribute revelational aspects to the cages of other cultures as well".  I have sat with and read those of other religions as well, especially on the mystical side, and found their experience and understanding of God to be profound and even very informing of my own experience and understanding of Christianity.  I would suggest that, though I understand many would take great offense, that there is revelation there.  That God is revealing himself to them in their context.

Perhaps the crux of the matter is whether they have "the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."  Jesus - his incarnation, his death, his resurrection - is the pivotal point of all history, this is the revelation that they are missing.  It isn't that there isn't revelation, it is that it is missing the culmination of revelation, the mystery of God incarnate in Jesus.  For even the idea of God incarnate in man is profoundly expressed in deep ways in other religions.  If God incarnate, and our being invited into trinitarian fellowship through Jesus has always been God's plan, surely he has been preparing all people for this?  Even familial/marital relationships are a revelation of it.

If something is true in Christianity, and that same truth is embraced, though perhaps with different language and a slightly different understanding in another religion, where did they get that truth?  Did Satan reveal it to them to blind them?  Or did God reveal it to them to draw them close or prepare them?

Did God go to all the trouble to make it so man could find him - even those in nations and times with NO biblical revelation, and make it so that He is not far from ANY of us, with no intention of being found?  Are THOSE people all relegated during this time to the victorious wiles of the evil one? What would it mean for them to "find" him?  Could they do so apart from Christ?

"You must be born again" by the Spirit to enter the kingdom of God.  So how far can their revelation take them?  How is it that there are Buddhists and Muslims who experientially and practically have more of the fruit of the Spirit and the Love of God in their lives than I do?  I have to admit I can't get my head around how or when this all fits together.  I certainly don't have it figured out.

Interesting thoughts.  Sorry for rambling.

I understand your thoughts. I disagree about the degree of revelation in these religions tho. Buddhists and Hindus and B'Hais for instance, all believe in avatars of God, Hindus and B'Hais even accept Jesus as an avatar of God- but they do not accept Him as Lord or Messiah or the only begottn son of God. Their very religion and the fundamental teachings of them blind men from seeing 'the lgiht of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

This is the singular revelation of this age, for Jew and Gentile alike, and in the verses you quoted in Acts 17, Paul declares that the answer tot he question, "Who is God", is found for all men in that light- from now on. I do believe God has ovelooked the times of ignorance, and where there is ignorance- only God is the judge of each heart, but as far as revelation goes, there is a wide gulf between the world view, the understanding of where the restoration of all things comes from, and the identity of God, and the solution to chaos- between the gospel and these religions and philosophies. I was saved out of metaphysics, and I do believe that western religiantiy has stripped the revelation of Jesus Christ from its mystical moorings and reality, but these religions provide no solution to the problem.

The Spirit of God glorifies Jesus, to the glory of the Father- YHWH. The scriptures of the prophets and apostles clearly define His role from creation, to redemption to the restoration of all things. He is the One all will bow before in humble adoration and gratitude- each in his own order. There is no other.

As Paul said, "That which you worship IN IGNORANCE I declare unto you....And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say,

"You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You"?

Also in Colossians Paul teaches the supremacy of the Lord Jesus....

For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

This gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, the Only Begotten Son, is unique in all the world. There is no redemption in any other.

Wisdom cries out in the streets. Ther is knowledge and there is self-evident truth falling like rain on the just and the unjust, but every person who ever lived is reconciled by the blood of His cross, and no other reconciliation will ever be mad available. He alone is appointed to this role, as Paul explains in Acts 17. It is for this reason, and this Name, attached to this One Unique Person that all those who worship Him in spirit and in truth suffer persecution in this world for His namesake.

God loves all, and all will be reconciled, but only at the feet of the One who is in the bosom of the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ.

[lastpost]

I once saw a prayer that came from an early American Indian tribe and it was pretty much like a christian prayer but referring to the Great Spirit and of course not Jesus because probably they never heard of Him

To me, this is the spirit within that is calling for the recognition of the spirit within others. I have seen this happen in other religions where the spirit within someone is calling to the mind of the body to lay aside the narrow confines of its religious doctrine, and to permit the spirit to soar free in the pastures of the Spirit. Often the result is to be rigidly snapped back into place by the traditional attitude considered by that religion as authoritative.

Perhaps the key here is to take a step back, and view things calmly and dispassionately, in order to understand the difference between that of worshipping in spirit and in truth - and that of worshipping an idea created by the minds of men.

I do not speak for all indigenous American Indian peoples, but there was a definite Principle in the religion of many towards the Great Spirit which was followed with a complete faith and which was translated into sincere practice.

Many  would gladly lay their life down for their friends; they were persecuted by both environment and illness, as well as the strangers who robbed them of their tracts of land and brought misery and destruction to their thresholds - a suffering which, by God's merciful law of compensation, gained for them a priceless blessing in the Spirit; they sought to give love to their fellows; they had a true sacrificial spirit, they would choose to undergo hardship as part of their offering to their Great Spirit; they wanted not what the world had to give except the bare essentials to survive and lead a courageous life with noble-hearted thoughts and desires, and who prayerfully treated with respect all that they took - they were true caretakers of the environment; they had a deep reverence for the One Spirit that gave them life, a reverence that was sacred indeed.

So the silver cord is loosed and into conditions of love and sacrifice they do pass, passing the grossness depicting earthly desire. And while it is with wonderment and a gratitude beyond expression, it is only with but a little readjustment that they recognise that the One so beautiful and noble who meets them is none other than the Loving Christ - not too surprising for it they can accept that He represents in perceptible form the One to whom they gave their allegiance in spirit and truth while living by faith in an earthly body of flesh.

Yet the great surprise is to find that the One Spirit by whom their lives were ordered - now seen in the Christ that they had never heard of as far as His Incarnation as Jesus was concerned - the great surprise is that He far exceeds in wonder and love their wildest imaginations, for His humbleness and gentleness is sweeter than any man could dare to imagine to lay upon the God who is his sovereign Spirit.

Almost immediately, some have their spirit's desire fulfilled because they find that they can be used by the Saviour Christ directly - and, unlike some who simply want an existence in Paradise to escape the tests and temptations of the earth for which they were born - to the tried warrior being in His service is all that is desired, for they have learnt that service to others in His Name is true spiritual joy. And He has much service for such as these.

This is my opinion, not that of many, but nevertheless I personally believe it to be true and important.

Some, not all, worship in spirit and in truth - and that is what is real to the God who is Spirit - not possessing a metaphysical notion of the mind without the accompanying life-long practice which is aligned to the life and teachings of Jesus the Christ.

It is what one has become that matters, it is how conformed the soul has become to the likeness of the Christ who is Spirit, as is the God that Christ expresses in as much abundance as His child can take. It is a wise and wondrous Plan of the Mind of Christ, a Plan of perfect Justice and Divine Love.

Here is something for those who like poetry, it is an addition to Longfellow's existing song...


    Gone the pageant and the glory;
    Gone the splendour of the sunset;
    Hiawatha's earthly sojourn...
    Yet his spirit dwells amongst you,
    Seeking yet the crimson fire-beams
    From the camp fires of his brothers.

    Minnehaha steals beside him,
    Twisting in her hair the willow;
    Green and fragrant is the willow:
    While her spirit wanders care-free
    O'er the plains of the dark country,
    Once so fair and full of promise.

    Now the stranger's hand is o'er it,
    Turning the fair land to madness.
    There is naught of peace or quiet
    In the selfish soul of white men
    Who deliver to the ashes
    All that curb their mean ambition.

    Gone the pageant and the glory
    Of the simple-hearted brothers.
    Gone the beauty of the sunset,
    When the Chiefs made humble offering -
    Bounteous offering to the Father
    Who had given them the country.
    The fair country of the Mohawks:

    Lost for ever is that country;
    None may roam at will its borders,
    In the care-free boundless fashion;
    All are fettered and in bondage,
    Who are left of the great Mohawks.

    Gone the pageant and the glory;
    Yet the spirit of the Mohawk
    Wanders o'er the sunlit rivers;
    O'er the moorland and the mountain,
    Where the wild and ruthless North Wind
    Steals away the fairest blossom
    Borne upon the South Wind's bosom...
    Takes it into the North Country,
    Breathes upon it and returns it
    Broken, to the South Wind's bosom;
    While the tardy West Wind hastens,
    To rebuke th'unruly North Wind.
    In the East the sun has risen,
    Smiling with the promised blessing;
    And the Day Star gleams and beckons
    Night to fasten back her tresses.

    All is gone that held the Mohawk;
    Yet he wanders o'er the country,
    Seeking to refresh the weary;
    Thus he comes with blessings laden,
    Into the white people's country;
    Turning not when men rebuke him;
    Ling'ring yet to smooth their sickness
    As the Great White Spirit bids him...
    Thus is Hiawatha with you...

[eaglesway]

The Spirt that is of God glorifies Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. While I understand the abuses perpetrated by western religionists have obscured the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ, the gospel of Jesus is the only remover of the veil, the blood of the cross of Jesus is the only reconciling agent, the Spirit of Christ the only true testimony in this age.

[jabcat]

I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No man comes to the Father but through Me.  - Jesus

[micah7:9]

 :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[rosered]

Yet the great surprise is to find that the One Spirit by whom their lives were ordered - now seen in the Christ that they had never heard of as far as His Incarnation as Jesus was concerned - the great surprise is that He far exceeds in wonder and love their wildest imaginations, for His humbleness and gentleness is sweeter than any man could dare to imagine to lay upon the God who is his sovereign Spirit.

Almost immediately, some have their spirit's desire fulfilled because they find that they can be used by the Saviour Christ directly - and, unlike some who simply want an existence in Paradise to escape the tests and temptations of the earth for which they were born - to the tried warrior being in His service is all that is desired, for they have learnt that service to others in His Name is true spiritual joy. And He has much service for such as these.

This is my opinion, not that of many, but nevertheless I personally believe it to be true and important.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!,,,,, it is by the Same Spirit where LOVE AND TRUTH  DWELL

We have a name , given to us and  are faithful to His name  .

but more so faithful to His loving   Holy Spirit of truth    that God created ''all things'' for His Glory        :HeartThrob:


  The Father seeks those to worship Him in SPIRIT &TRUTH As  pouring yourself out as an offering to  serve the LIVING GOD   ,JESUS GAVE  HIMSELF  for and we should do the same   in the same way  , becoming all things to all men that you/us /we   might save some from  the unknown ends of mortal life not knowing the true and Living God   .

romans 8  28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

gather all things into Himself /Christ the anointed ONE


Eph 1Spiritual Blessings
...9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him


10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

Psalms 42     As the deer pants for the water brooks,

So my soul pants for You, O God.


2My soul thirsts for God, for the living God; When shall I come and appear before God?


3My tears have been my food day and night, While they say to me all day long, "Where is your God?"...

[eaglesway]

The terminology of such things can be a fine line, so I dont always know what I am responding to, so at the risk of appearing repetitive, I will only say this.

There is one spirit/ He is named in Jesus, the only begotten Son of YHWH.

The name of Krishna will not be glorified. It is the name of a false god, a deity from among those the scripture refers to as, "The gods of the nations are demons.

Budha will not be named. Neither Confuscious or Zoroaster will be named. Zeus, Odin, Baha'u'llah. None of these names will be named. Nne of these rleigions/philosophies recognize Jesus as Lord and Savior, having the name above every name.

Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone and the apostles and prophets make up the foundation stones of the city made without hands, having foundations in the heavenlies.

There is a lot of legend that has grown up around the native American people and their religions, beliefs and philosophies.

I cannot judge all of that. No one can. But I do know that every spirit that is of God (YHWH) acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus and His name as having "all authority in heaven and in earth", as well as His unique birth, sinless life, death, resurrection and ascenscion.

Any spirit that rejects Jesus as Lord and Savior is a lying spirit. Any spirit that teaches that Jesus is one of many avatars(manifestations, emanations) is a lying spirit. Jesus is unique above all, having said so Himself, plainly enough, and having, in the testimony of the prophets before Him and the apostles after Him incontrovertible witnesses to the fact.

This is not a U U site. Jesus Christ is Lord here. There is one body and one Spirit. Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven, on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Anyone trying to use the site to introduce pluralism will be banned. There are lots of pluralist sites and forums to share that belief.

I apologize if I offend, but we are firmly united on this foundation and will not yield the floor to another spirit suggesting other ways- It is not our purpose.

[jabcat]

Amen John, well said.  It's not that subtle.  Jesus, Lord, Son of God, the only way to the Father.  Any other spirit will have to bow and conform to that.  And we need to stick to that.

[rosered]

I understand  , and Love Jesus Christ and talk to him daily !!! ..   He is my  savior  and not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ   .. :HeartThrob:

All will Know whom He is in the end  being the WORD OF GOD  AND many other   things , the ,Lamb of God , the Good Shepherd  , the Vine , the  Door  ,  the Alpha and OMega  first and last and the Son of man and the Son of God    ..

[Seth]

Eaglesway and Jabcat, amen.

One question I have about the example of the great spirit. There were many believers in the great spirit who were also carnal, warlike etc, inasmuch as those who were not.

So, what is the difference between those Native Americans that we supposed to discern that they have had a revelation of God without having heard the Gospel?

Some of what was said here reminds me of our conversation in the "Just believing, God considers you righteous" thread.

[sheila]

well,Seth,you could use that same stick to measure those who proclaim Christ,too.  wiped out the Indians

  ..many will come in my Name. There were peace loving tribes also. a lot of atrocities have been done

by 'believers' in supposedly His name.   Love is supposed to be the way they would 'know'

      I think..that those who do things of the law....are a law unto themselves. What is it in a person

that makes them treat other's like they would like to be treated? to not be greedy,nor steal but work

to provide for themselves and thier families...to be charitable/hospitable[Pilgrims/Thanksgiving etc]

   the Ghost Dance.....hearing about Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost...they were crying out to Him in prayer.

  I wouldn't paint them all with a broad brush..just as those proclaiming the name of Christ.

  they belong to Him...He bought and paid for them...I think we do well..if we leave them to Him

and just do what He told us to do.

  ps..imo...

[Seth]

Who's painting with a broad brush? Do you understand what my point was?