Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[Lazarus Short]

Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.

A lot of folks will tell you that they are in Hell.  Happily, the hereafter is not like a Chick Tract, and these two people were/are/will be saved, but they also served as an object lesson for the saints.  I would not guess if they will need further refining in the LoF, and that's not my call anyway.

[sheila]

  you need to quit measuring yourself and righteousness as having surpassed other believers that have fallen

  into some of these things you speak of.  and start measuring yourself by Jesus standards.

   many are called[believers] but few are chosen..and even fewer faithful.

   Satan has demanded to sift you like wheat.....and he does....and many have been destroyed in this way

    he who thinks he is standing..beware...and pride cometh before a fall....

    for satan is like a lion that seeks to devour............and you don't know what may lay ahead  for you

   the saints'church' was overcome....scandal after scandal of child molestation by the church is on

  the news since the 80's...God was judging the church even then...as well as corruption/greed of

finances..consorting with whores,adultery etc...multiple wives..Jim Jones etc.

  there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed.

   He corrects[even severely] so that all men shall not be recieving the judgement of the wicked one..

   even to the putting to death of your flesh with the sin in it...so the spirit may be saved.


  ...in order that the election would be according to God's will......before they had done good or evil.

   Satan has his own election and called ones..to compete in the ministry...satan has his own false prophets

to compete.

    actions speak louder than words...and yet it is recorded in the scriptures people healed and made

  whole because of what they said...he who recieves a prophet recieves a prophet's reward...........

  he who recieves a righteous man recieves a righteous man's reward.

[Seth]

you need to quit measuring yourself and righteousness as having surpassed other believers that have fallen   into some of these things you speak of.  and start measuring yourself by Jesus standards.

You're passing judgement on me about that. Never in my actual words (apart from what you have apparently assumed) have I even talked about myself and my righteousness in comparison to anyone else. I have only talked about what I believe the Bible says on the matter of faith and works and judgement.

He corrects[even severely] so that all men shall not be recieving the judgement of the wicked one..

   even to the putting to death of your flesh with the sin in it...so the spirit may be saved.

This has been my whole point.

The OP, if you will recall, is titled, "just believing, God considers you righteous" and added the question of whether or not we believe that one must adhere to the commandments of Christ, and that salvation may be enjoyed though belief.

I don't think that carries very far if God severely "corrects" us BASED ON OUR WORKS and not simply based on whether or not we believe or don't believe. What kind of salvation would we "enjoy" if we are turned over to Satan based on being judged "according to our works?" That doesn't sound enjoyable to me.

I'd say correction is part of it, but it's correction through destruction. God gives grace to the humble, but resists ....(the unbelievers?) ....the proud.

actions speak louder than words...and yet it is recorded in the scriptures people healed and made

  whole because of what they said...he who recieves a prophet recieves a prophet's reward...........

  he who recieves a righteous man recieves a righteous man's reward.

In terms of healing from sin, that's because belief brings the Holy Spirit. Actions to follow receiving the Spirit (at least according to Ephesians 2 and Titus 3) encompass that salvation. Those chapters, from my reading, are saying that the Holy Spirit caused them to walk differently and that different walk saved them from their former walk.

[Seth]

Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.

A lot of folks will tell you that they are in Hell.  Happily, the hereafter is not like a Chick Tract, and these two people were/are/will be saved, but they also served as an object lesson for the saints.  I would not guess if they will need further refining in the LoF, and that's not my call anyway.

:iagree:

That's why I believe the church needs a paradigm shift about what salvation is about and not about.

[dajomaco]

Well I believe, for scriptural reasons already presented, that those who believe in Jesus but then continue to do things like molesting children etc, willfully, will face the wrath of God, for their own good, but their self perceived righteousness isn't going to carry them very far. God will not be mocked.

Seth are there worse sins than child molesting?

[sheila]

 I'd say He corrects us more on our attitude than works. Mark 4;24  Consider carefully what you hear..

  with the same measure you use,it will be measured unto you.and even more.

  2 Cor 10;12-18  when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves.....

     I keep hearing a clanging works based salvation Seth..and it bristle's me.Yet,I know your not legalistic

  in the sense of where I come out of.



   the serpent is more subtil than any beast of the field


  the flesh is turned over to satan for the destruction of the flesh..in order that the Spirit be saved..their

spirit is saved...........no flesh declared righteous.

[sheila]

what about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?

and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]

  the saints were overcome..both Israel and christendom......two measures of flour leavened..the third

  part..is the ALL in ALL sheer grace of God.

  the end of the church age and the  beginning of 1000 yr  messianic reign of both the living and the dead

      He come to break up the works of the devil...those dead in tresspass and sin also belong to Him

[Seth]

I'd say He corrects us more on our attitude than works.

I don't really see much of dilemma between the two. Correcting the attitude kinda goes a long way of correcting the works, imo. I think the crux has to do with what causes the correction to be necessary, lack of belief, or evil works. Or both? I think it would be a serious stretch to say evil works have nothing to do with it.

I keep hearing a clanging works based salvation Seth..and it bristle's me.Yet,I know your not legalistic

  in the sense of where I come out of.

A lot of us, I believe, were wrongly taught all our Christian lives that being free from the Law means that works have nothing to do with salvation. We also believed salvation was connected to hell rather than what Apostles said it was about, which was our darkness.

Even when you look in Romans 4, the works Paul was contrasting against faith about was physical circumcision, Law based stuff. Abraham was righteous because he was faithful without a Law. Again, he was FAITHFUL, that's what the word for faith in Hebrew actually means. He had just gotten through talking about how, in Romans 2, the Gentiles were circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and were free from Law, but because their hearts were circumcised, their works were changed.

Again, I have mentioned it before, but why do we incorporate the Hebrew understanding of Sheol and Olam into our UR understanding, but just totally gloss over the Hebrew understanding of faith? It boggles my mind, really.

I see that as a completely inconsistent approach to Bible study.


 

[Seth]

what about David? adultery and murder..yet the anointed of the Lord..was David righteous? or fallible?

and severely corrected.[sin reigned over him through the lust of his eyes]

David is a great example. Why was he SEVERELY corrected? Was it because he didn't believe in God? How far did his imputed righteousness (if he had that pre-New Covenant) carry him seeing that he lost his son?

"He will judge each man according to his deeds" Romans 2:6

[sheila]

satan loosed went forth and decieved the entire earth and gathered them togather to surround the camp of

  the city God loves....then fire come down from heaven and consumed them.

.......the man of lawlessness revealed of which the Lord will do away with the breath of His coming

[Seth]

The irony is that the same folks who enforced legalism taught that works had nothing at all to do with salvation...

I think they were wrong on both counts, not just one.

[Seth]

satan loosed went forth and decieved the entire earth and gathered them togather to surround the camp of

  the city God loves....then fire come down from heaven and consumed them.

.......the man of lawlessness revealed of which the Lord will do away with the breath of His coming

Isaiah 30
27 See, the Name of the Lord comes from afar,
    with burning anger and dense clouds of smoke;
his lips are full of wrath,
    and his tongue is a consuming fire.
28 His breath is like a rushing torrent,
    rising up to the neck.
He shakes the nations in the sieve of destruction;
    he places in the jaws of the peoples
    a bit that leads them astray.

33 Topheth (Gehenna) has long been prepared;
    it has been made ready for the king.
Its fire pit has been made deep and wide,
    with an abundance of fire and wood;
the breath of the Lord,
    like a stream of burning sulfur,
    sets it ablaze.

"and I shall tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, yet who work iniquity" - Matthew 7:23

[sheila]

judge each man according to his deeds. I see that as  in Adam all die[disobedience] and so too shall all

live in Christ[eternal life]  One righteous man saved the whole city.

      as far as the Lord correcting those He loves..I know it is true.

 

   I come from a very legalistic works based salvation background..with Pharisaic and Sadduciac  tones

  ...heaping up heavy loads impossible to bear..a wicked servant class that says 'the Master is delaying

  and begins beating the members of the household' even then we were told...you may or may not survive

but the 'organization will survive..and that's what's important"  God's vindication is of the utmost importance

and priority.[even if you did all the works according to their judgement..no guarantee of salvation]


  since I have come to Know Him..I have discovered that His LOVE is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND

VINDICATION AND THE SALVATION OF ALL MEN IS HIS GLORY!

  ALL LIVES MATTER!!! Because we are a part of HIM...and losing any one of us..is the same as HIM

  losing part of Himself.

   

[Seth]

judge each man according to his deeds. I see that as  in Adam all die[disobedience] and so too shall all

 live in Christ[eternal life]  One righteous man saved the whole city.

      as far as the Lord correcting those He loves..I know it is true.

I see it in context with the rest of Romans 2:

Romans 2
6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done."[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal (aionios) life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

I come from a very legalistic works based salvation background..with Pharisaic and Sadduciac  tones

  ...heaping up heavy loads impossible to bear..a wicked servant class that says 'the Master is delaying

  and begins beating the members of the household' even then we were told...you may or may not survive

Did they wrap that teaching up in the false doctrine of hell, and connect salvation/healing/deliverance with that?

Listen, I have heard WITH MY OWN EARS people say that God saved them from drug use, alcholism etc. Not ME saying that, THEY did, and they used the word "saved" and they were really happy about it. Only they just didn't yet put it together that was what salvation was all about in the first place, not hell.

[sheila]

Yet,I will not always find fault..for then..even the SPIRIT would fail before me.

Because of HIS GREAT LOVE ye sons of men are not consumed...so,what is consumed? the man of lawlessness

...and he differs from sons of men. Though the sons of men may serve as examples of this wicked one

as recorded in Jude.   Satans doom....arrogance has budded...the end of all flesh has come.

[sheila]

...eternal death not torture..was their doctrine.

[sheila]

...before the flood.   'I WILL NOT ALWAYS CONTEND WITH MAN,IN THAT HE IS BUT FLESH" Gen 6

     .....I will not always find fault..for then the very spirit shall fail.

[Seth]

I agree, he will not always find fault.  :dontknow:

[sheila]

 I believe it is discerned at the seperation of the sheep and goats. looking to atonement process as shadow

of reality of Heaven...there are two goats..that are chosen by lots..and distinguished between..

   the Lord's lot[goat] is sacrificed on the altar in the temple..and is in the city[consumed] the other

  goat..of which the High Priest places all the sins upon his head...is taken into the wilderness[Azazel's]

  and shoved over a steep ravine[rocks]

   I believe God corrects man in the corrupt image that he not be condemned with the 'wicked one"

  and I believe this is shown through the atonement process..the two goats..the distinction made

between the Lord's lot[goat] and Azazel's lot[goat] even the casting of the lot's is from God.

   Lord,Lord..didn't we..thus and thus..in your name...would be the people that performed lying signs

that originated with the wicked ones.  I believe Jesus seperates..goat/from goat...the wicked one[satan and

demons with their works] from man in the image of the corrupt[or the unregenerate in this life]

    I will have mercy on whom I have mercy.

[sheila]

 the Lord's lot....[Lot] Abraham's brother.  Jesus as kinsman redeemer..to raise UP seed from His dead brother

  Adam.   He was not ashamed to call them brothers.

[Seth]

I believe pretty much that the object of correction, even severe correction upon his house, is a means to bring forth fruit to the branches without fruit. For the farmer to do this, he must be aware that the branches are without fruit, and not have a view that they all have fruit when they don't. If he cannot distinguish, he cannot prune the tree.

[sheila]

yep Jude..the twice dead..without fruit. those of which  John the baptist..when he saw them said unto them

  'ye offspring of viper..who showed you the way of salvation? therefore repent and produce fruits of

    repentance"

     I believe the 'twice dead" are in reality a demonic spirit incapable of repentance...the wicked one's

   nature/liar and man killer from the beginning.Blind Pharisee's...those of whom the prince of this world

  have blinded/decieved.  that evil generation/tare seed that enters not into the promised land/barn.

   ye do not enter and those who are entering ye hinder.

    I believe men are hardened by God for this purpose to show/manifest openly what is in the unseen

spiritual realm.   Such as Pharoah of Egypt that held Israelites in slavery. Pharoah satan/prince of this world

and holding men in slavery to sin works.   Even Moses testifying that God would raise up a man from them

even Jesus[Jesus said 'Moses saw my day and rejoiced"

     God hardens,whom He will..according to His purpose.

[Seth]

I could see that. He's showing us why we can't save/heal ourselves.

[sheila]

 I believe there is an unseen goat[evil spirit] in men that manifest as wicked....the works of the devil

    [lawlessness] is burnt up in them/destroyed...and they are saved as through fire.seperated from their

  sin...=two goats and lots..The Lord's and Azazels....and they are as unfruitful branches    'Snatched/harpazio

from the fire......saved as through fire.  one goat[the man] is burnt on the altar/were not our hearts

burning when He opened the scriptures....God's altar CHANGES THEM/harpazioed snatched.

    no one can snatch them from my hand.  O'The LORD OF THE DEAD that seperates from the twice dead

[eaglesway]

I think we sometimes speak with too much confidence about things we know only a little of.

Imagine, standing in a place where the dead are raised and the blind see, where tongues of fire light upon the heads of the anointed and the all have given all so that none has any need.

Stand there seeking to enhance your position in the midst of the congregation by lying in order to aggrandize yourself, while secretly hoarding the gift no one even asked you for as if God was not there to see through it.

I can't imagine it, but I have had a sip of it.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

God adjusted the attitude, and did so with an exclamation point for the whole congregation. It was as if they had carried a golden calf into the holy of holies.

We can speculate as much as we want about all kinds of things but when the glory of God is present is dangerous to glory in the flesh. It is like putting a lightning rod upon your head in a thunder storm. God judged Ananias and Saphira in the midst of the great congregation, to make a point.

I may get throttled for this but.... here goes LOL

God loves everyone, but God does not accept everyone, and God does not tolerate everything. God requires a change of heart. He enables it, and "It is God who is in you to will(attitude) and to do(deeds) of His good pleasure." But He works in the secret place of our hearts, and Only He knows the secrets of the hearts. He judged David for his sin in a way that He knew, by the secrets of David's heart, was perfect for David. David, who loved peace, was at war for the rest of his life. He had war in his own family. He saw thousands of his subjects die for his iniquity......but of course sometimes we forget that the king is connected in a direct line to the heart of the people. God hardened David's heart to number the people. Did God harden David's heart to lust after Bathsheba? To murder Uriah?

Who has known the mind of the Lord? Who has been His counselor?

But Psalm 31 says, "Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord does not impute iniquity." And of Jacob and Esau it is written, " Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated"- and Paul makes the point that this was before either of them had done anything to desrve anything, but then Paul says it was related to Esau exchanging His birthright for a morsel of food. So I guess we have God knowing Esau before he lived and seeing through to the heart of him. Paul finishes his point, "It is not to him who runs or to him who wills but to God who has mercy".

Why did God have mercy on David and not Ananias and Safira?

Well, we have Ananias and Safira, not recognizing the birthright, the point, the holiness of love as well as the generosity of love- and also the dedication of love to the image of Christ- His inward nature.

But who knows? Only Him.

So, I see God as One who sees greed for glory as greater sin that that of a man who steals something or a man drinking away his pain or a woman who makes a bad choice and loves another womans husband. Perhaps He saw the sin of the men who so wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery as self-righteous, murderous intent....far worse than the sin of the woman.

So He sat with sinners and was called a glutton and a drunkard- but those people He was with were holier than the Pharisees and easier to reach, "The harlots and publicans will enter the kingdom of heaven before you"(religious).

But God will not hang around arrogance and if arrogance forces itself in His face it can get a shocking awakening- a painful epiphany so to speak :o)

"I dwell in the high and holy place and with the one who is of a broken and a contrite heart."

The reason we cant judge is we dont kno the story.

We dont know who is broken, who is wounded, who is imprisoned with chains of mental illness. But we know the mercy of God is the way out, and for mercy to be received there must be repentence. But repentence is not always on the surface, as the parable of the son who said no but then later obeyed, versus the son who said yes but never did obey.

But David humbled himself before the Lord, and God accepted his humble heart, and valued it tremendously. Love covers a multitude of sins.

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.