Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[sheila]

...and ALL have reaped corruption and death through the first Adam...so,too,shall ALL receive grace and eternal life and incorruption

  through the last Adam/life/giving spirit.

   we are all condemned under the law/command do not eat from the TOKOGAE through ADAM.......

     the weightier matters...JUSTICE/RIGHTEOUSNESS/MERCY

     there is a pair of scales perfectly balanced by God....that pertains to judgement/mercy of the whole creation.........

[Seth]

...and ALL have reaped corruption and death through the first Adam...so,too,shall ALL receive grace and eternal life and incorruption

  through the last Adam/life/giving spirit.

   we are all condemned under the law/command do not eat from the TOKOGAE through ADAM.......

     the weightier matters...JUSTICE/RIGHTEOUSNESS/MERCY

     there is a pair of scales perfectly balanced by God....that pertains to judgement/mercy of the whole creation.........

Again, those who sin apart from the Law shall perish apart from the Law. of course we have all sinned. But salvation from everything Paul describes in Romans 1 requires not just faith but a circumcision of the heart by the Spirit.

The Spirit is our salvation from reaping bad fruit.

You can't reap bad fruit if you don't sow bad seed.

[sheila]

   right..the new creation.  so..it is not a good thing to judge men..that are not a 'finished' new creation...

   you are reaping what other men sowed even now. John 4;37  Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps is true.

  I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Other's have done the hard work and you have reaped the benefits

of their labour.

[Seth]

It's not about judging others. It's about having a discussion on what each of us believes the Bible says about this matter. I am discussing what I believe the Bible says, that's all.

Galatians 6
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Compare to Romans 2.

[sheila]

re; you can't reap bad fruit if you don't sow bad seed

   Lord,you sowed good seed in your field..from whence came the tares?  He replied...'an enemy have done this in the night."

    the night comes..when no man can work

[Seth]

God will not be mocked.

[eaglesway]

Hey eaglesway,
I don't say the below to correct you. I'm just talking out loud. . .

Here is the contextual setting of the Ephesians verse you quoted:

Ephesians 2:8-10  For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present,  (9)  not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 
(10)  For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

Notice God brought His own approach present, His Son. Therefore salvation is not of works. If it were, we could boast
in saving ourselves. I'm glad we agree on that.  :iagree:

Not only that but we are His achievement. Anything we do concerning good works is "God operating in you to will as well
as to work for the sake of His delight."

Also, it is not a law that we MUST do good works such as helping our neighbor, enemy or brother or sister in Christ. It is ideal.
It is not done to save ourselves nor is it a way to lose one's salvation should they fail in the ideal.

P.S. "obedience" in the Scriptures is "hearing." When we obey the gospel/evangel we actually hear it. We hear that Christ actually, truly did die for our sins,
was entombed and roused the third day. In actually hearing that we are obeying it by believing it. Dig?

If we have "heard" a change is made in the heart. If there is no change, we didnt hear. "having ears they hear not and having eyes they see not."

But I do believe repentence is not something we "do". It is something that happens to us when we "see" Christ crucified. After it happens to us, we begin to do, for Christ is in us, to will and to do of God's good pleasure.

Also, there is a fine line to be made thicker as far as dicipleship and believing are concerned. Jesus told the rich young ruler to "do" something. The young man walked away sorrowfully. I am not sure he believed. He certainly did not receive the word with joy, bt I think many of us(generic) fall into that same boat. The Lord is asking us to lay something down. We walk away sorrowfully. We are believers learning to be disciples I guess :o)

[eaglesway]

According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,

Really? What verse is that? Paul was not saying they are saved by what they do. He was saying that people whose lives are characterized by certain failing will not be enjoying an allotment in the kingdom of God. That does not mean they "won't go to heaven." It just means they will not have a part in God's kingdom administration. He needs only so many chiefs. The rest are citizens of that kingdom. Eonian life cannot be earned and cannot be lost due to what we do or fail to do. Reigning with Christ is another matter. Those whose lives are characterized by denying the Lord, the Lord will refuse them to reign with Him. But that again is part of the kingdom administration and has nothing to do with receiving or losing eonian life which is life for the oncoming eons.

and will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.

Paul never once said believers are judged according to their works.
So a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?

I just want to speak specifically to the method of argument here Tony. Works, in the context in which we speak, include, and even focus on, attitudes, love, thoughts, words. Being a parapalegic or not is a bit of a bail out and trivialization of the discussion. There is no "believing" that saves, but will not produce a change in attitude- even if that attitude is only to be frustrated or troubled by the sin one is not able to overcome, or the love one is not able to walk in. I think the language problem going on in this thread is signifigant, in that it does sound like you are postulating a foundation in which there is no judgment, and can be none, because man is totally uninvolved in both his salvation and also his sanctification. In my view man is involved in both, but not from the point of view of earning anything- but from the point of view of learning everything.

But I may still be misunderstanding you, because I realize you are committed to the teaching of grace in all things, with which I agree. I just do not think the two(grace and accountability) are mutually exclusive, since the scriptures teach both- and I do think there is an accountabilty for decisions we make- but only God knows the secrets of the heart.

The one thing I can say to approve what you seem to be saying is something that I have said for a long time- if we must err, let it be towards grace.

But better not to err at all.

If nothing else we are to labor diligently to enter His rest, a paradox of sorts, which involves "ceasing from our own works" and "entering the works that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them", which is believing.

[Dandelion]

Faith saves us, I believe, and is the first step in our personal relationship with God. I would say that trust, will lead to us becoming His disciples.

We can believe that God is God, and have faith in that statement, but it does not necessarily mean that we allow God access to our lives, to do His will.

Quick story. There is a man, on a tightrope, going across Niagra Falls. He is riding a bicycle. On the front of the bicycle is a basket.

Faith says, the man will make it across the tightrope. Trust is willing to sit in the basket, while he does so.

We give up claim to our own life, in exchange for Christ to live in us. Only when we do that, can He use us.

Galatians 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

I think this quote from Paul to his dear Timothy, whom he was grooming for discipleship, speaks of allowing ourselves to be used by God, for His purpose.

2 Timothy 2:

20 In a wealthy home some utensils are made of gold and silver, and some are made of wood and clay. The expensive utensils are used for special occasions, and the cheap ones are for everyday use. 21 If you keep yourself pure, you will be a special utensil for honorable use. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready for the Master to use you for every good work.

22 Run from anything that stimulates youthful lusts. Instead, pursue righteous living, faithfulness, love, and peace. Enjoy the companionship of those who call on the Lord with pure hearts.

23 Again I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. 24 A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. 25 Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. 26 Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.

[ed]

Very nice for my first read of the morning Dandelion.

:dsunny:

:Peace2:

[Tony N]

I just want to speak specifically to the method of argument here Tony. Works, in the context in which we speak, include, and even focus on, attitudes, love, thoughts, words. Being a parapalegic or not is a bit of a bail out and trivialization of the discussion. There is no "believing" that saves, but will not produce a change in attitude- even if that attitude is only to be frustrated or troubled by the sin one is not able to overcome, or the love one is not able to walk in. I think the language problem going on in this thread is signifigant, in that it does sound like you are postulating a foundation in which there is no judgment, and can be none, because man is totally uninvolved in both his salvation and also his sanctification. In my view man is involved in both, but not from the point of view of earning anything- but from the point of view of learning everything.

But I may still be misunderstanding you, because I realize you are committed to the teaching of grace in all things, with which I agree. I just do not think the two(grace and accountability) are mutually exclusive, since the scriptures teach both- and I do think there is an accountabilty for decisions we make- but only God knows the secrets of the heart.

The one thing I can say to approve what you seem to be saying is something that I have said for a long time- if we must err, let it be towards grace.

But better not to err at all.

If nothing else we are to labor diligently to enter His rest, a paradox of sorts, which involves "ceasing from our own works" and "entering the works that were prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them", which is believing.

Hi eaglesway, No, I'm not saying there is no judgment. There is judgment for the believer in this life so we are not condemned with the world (1 Cor.11:32).  If we are not disciplined then are we not bastard children? But God loves those He chastens.
In Revelation it is said all will give an account. We must not read into "account" the idea of "responsibility." It is just in Greek "logos" or "word." Man will give a word as to their acts. God will straighten them out as to all the whys and wherefores of their acts. But never does the Bible say mankind is responsible. Of course we do have certain "responsibilities" if married in taking care of the family etc. But ultimately speaking, responsibility is not used in the Scriptures to declare man as being that.

But I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel. How could He? Since He is the One Who chose specific individuals to be believing before the disruption of the world, before we were ever born, we were chosen in Christ. The rest were not, not until the consummation of the eons. Then the rest come into Christ.

Many are the ideas on how to become righteous. God's wisdom makes it sooooo simple that the wisest can't see it unless given to them to see. Man feels they have to DO something to atone for their sins or whatever. God says "It's already been done." Man says "Not good enough." God says "just believe Me that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day." Man says: "I'd rather contribute SOMETHING!" God says "No need to." Man says I'll repent, ask Jesus into my kidney, no, umm, heart, go to church 3x a week, pay tithes, mow the pastor's grass and on and on. But God would rather we just take Him at His word and in so doing we are declared righteous. One can not be more righteous than righteous by doing extra credits so to speak.

[eaglesway]

I agree Dandelion.

_But_ :o)

"Faith saves us" is something that can be read a few different ways.

What does it save us from? What does it save us for? And of course i kno you kno this but, faith only saves us when it is faith in Him, and on some level that means a revelation of "Who he is"- not just in name but in character.

So for some people, salvation is a connection, a relationship, not just an acknowledgment of belief- but a heart response of belief.... a pledge as well as a cry for help. There are differing concepts of "believing".

In Romans 10 for instance, where Paul says we must believe "in our heart" and "confess with our mouth Jesus as Lord" - He makes the comment that, with the heart one believes unto righteousness, with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Is that a work? the confession I mean( not asking for an answer, just postulating).

Some people will call that confession a "work". As you read the one verse, you are NOT saved by believing- you are saved by confession. When we get to specific with verses and try to build an entire case on one or two verses it can get weird like,"Well, if you believe you are made righteous but you arent saved till you confess it." The spiritual mind does not 'see" or "hear" the word like that.

Paul is simply speaking of two aspects of one salvation, and in my opinion confessing Jesus as Lord includes the intent to respond to Him as such, because that is how he is subjecting the adversaries, "As once were all of you, hostile of mind and engaged in evil deeds"...."And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of God the Father"- but what is the signifigance of that? Yielding to His Lordship of love for God and one another is salvation and reconciliation :o)

So one person will take, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved" and say, "Thats it, just believe" and 10 people can say "Amen" with 5 different ideas of what believe means :o)

Another will say, "He that believes and is baptized will be saved". 5 people will say amen 5 people will say "Oh No!" Of the 5 people who say "Amen" there will be three different ideas about what the verse means that they will fight to the death over. LOL

So at what point do we say, the scriptures are an unreliable source. Pick what you want to believe and go on home. Instead we say, "The scriptures are true and they mean what I say they mean" ;o)

What really is happening is this- we bring these differing concepts to the light of day to compare them in the Day. It is only if we are personally attached to our concepts in an ego born way that we are unable to resolve into the unity of faith. James 3:13-18, and Ephesians 4 explain this :o)

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Christians debate the 4th verse without considering the first thru 3rd, but Paul was offering the 4rth verse in support of the first three- not as a legalistic standard to judge every other utterance. Without context scriptures lose "INTENT", which is a big part of meaning.

The truth is, either all the scripures are true and we have the general context and perspective awry, or they are not true and integral and we ought to just fold up our tents and go home.

But IMO, all of the verses in the Bible are true when viewed in the greater context of the scriptures- God's love and ultimate reconciliation of all.

Within that context there is no need to be freaking out over fine lines of definition-

God didnt make man for the Sabbath, He made the Sabbath for man. The Sabbath is that believers rest we have entered once we have trusted Jesus Christ with our souls.

I think it is clear from the general context of all the verses that speak about salvation,  that repentence is a part of "believing unto salvation" and to me repentence is simply turning to God with intent to follow the Christ I am "believing" and "confessing".

Confessing Him as Lord with no intent of responding to Him as Lord, is of no consequence.

Among the things we are "saved" from, one of the primary things is the old nature, so people who get connected to Jesus will change in some signifigant ways.

Jesus explained all these thing Himself, and then Paul followed with many words. Some people will call that salvation by works. I would call it salvation accomanied by works..... as Jesus said, "Bring forth fruit fitting for repentence."

"If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creature, old things pass away, Behold all things become new".

I would call that a good definition of salvation.

[sheila]

....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker

  of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.

       can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.

    one hour workers equal to all day workers.....

       there's a free gift and there's a wage.

   the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord

     a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men

   

[Lazarus Short]

....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker

  of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.

       can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.

    one hour workers equal to all day workers.....

       there's a free gift and there's a wage.

   the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord

     a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men

...and doesn't that parable imply that all will be saved...?

[sheila]

sure it does. the vineyard is the gospel of the salvation of all. the workers are the ones called to be fellow workers/ministers of

those who are to inherit the kingdom[all].....the wine shall be put in new wineskins[new creatures raised up in Christ's image]

  the Best Wine saved for last.

[Tony N]

....and he said to him'why are you standing here doing nothing all day" and he replied..'no one has hired me" the one hour worker

  of the vineyard" now the full day workers were offended..that he received the same wage.

       can I not do what I wish with my own possessions..or..are your hearts wicked.

    one hour workers equal to all day workers.....

       there's a free gift and there's a wage.

   the free gift of eternal life is for all..............the wage is a reward...well done..enter into the joy of your Lord

     a labour of love never fails......and rejoices with the Lord over the salvation of all men

But what of those of the nations who do no work and are still saved?

[sheila]

  a free gift is free..you do no work for it. Gifts of mercy/grace.    wages/reward is another matter..for those called to service in the

ministry now.

       

[Seth]

But I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel.

I think this is probably one of the reasons we have a disagreement about this matter. I think we are coming from a different perspective of salvation. You've mentioned hell in two different posts in this conversation, but I have made it clea that I do not believe in hell and have a totally different way of understanding what salvation is from than anything to do with hell.

I believe that for someone to be saved from alcholism, eventually the man will need to stop drinking. That has nothing to do with hell. Jesus came to save us from SIN. And I believe he uses 100% grace to do that. In Titus 2:11-12 Paul says that God's grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. I'm not making that up. You can look it up if you like.

It has nothing to do with hell. Nothing to do with hell. I am talking abou salvation (sozo - healing, deliverance) from sin.

You can tell me that a man is saved from alcoholism from faith alone, but I believe that defies common sense. The abandoning of sin eventually requires action. Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. If the paraplegic is addicted to porn and faith causes the Spirit to come upon the person and free them from addiction, then choosing NOT to watch porn is a form of salvation that has occurred when faith meets works.

[eaglesway]

If love is work, then no one will be saved(jk)

I think terms are binding but ideas are liberating.

When someone sees Christ crucified, the love of God is born in their hearts.

When someone sees Christ risen, the faith of God is born in their hearts.

When someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, the glory of God is born in their hearts.

[rosered]

If love is work, then no one will be saved(jk)

I think terms are binding but ideas are liberating.

When someone sees Christ crucified, the love of God is born in their hearts.

When someone sees Christ risen, the faith of God is born in their hearts.

When someone confesses Jesus Christ as Lord, the glory of God is born in their hearts.

  Amen  to all said , great  things have come out of this thread , no doubt!!   

John that is beautiful  , I know  trying to describe   the indescribable   ... :laughing7:
Truly a flood   fills your heart ,  a cleansing  of all this goodness of God and you can  understand what His presence  is , a quivering  of emotion , and it is  best described as a emotion     that  state of mind and instinctive responses  to His ''presence ''  of love flooding the very core of your being,   

  washing away the old nasty   hardness of being  alone in your misery  ,   and those cries  out to God  answered   and it is more than just feeling , its a hope  made alive within  that never was there before  He come  , the loving connection     that you are not alone    , and something greater with purpose and meaning has forever changed  your   way of thinking    , you could never tell by looking  at them  at first
  But their    focus and  attitude    changed from  a negative   force to a positive one   
or from no emotion and dead like   attitude of nothingness  and does not care attitude  , of why try ?,  to seeking a change  for the better .. 

   Man has dubbed it ''depression ''  , but it really is a lack of     faith , hope and love being the  greatest things  in living and of  Life itself ..

Gods Spirit and presence within us   causing spiritual growth of the new creature   in Christ ...

Can one kill the Christ within ? 
Does the evil within choke out the Word of Life ?

  Jesus speaks of the cares of this life doing just that  and the worries of below thinking  drown out the good ?

Being on the farm I have seen the  same  seeds  in a row  and some  drown and die  from to much rain seeping into pockets    and seen  some  to close to the  surface  without enough depth   die from sun exposure   and yet some   ''make it   '' despite   the elements  against them and do go on to produce   at harvest time  ...

Everyone   being  ''seed'' was given the same  at the same time  ,and how some were affected  influenced or touched by an external factor  and others not at all    , 

Maybe that is what this life is all about ?   

[Tony N]

But I will say this: God does not condemn anyone to "Hell" or whatever one wants to call it, for not believing the evangel/gospel.

I think this is probably one of the reasons we have a disagreement about this matter. I think we are coming from a different perspective of salvation. You've mentioned hell in two different posts in this conversation, but I have made it clea that I do not believe in hell and have a totally different way of understanding what salvation is from than anything to do with hell.

I believe that for someone to be saved from alcholism, eventually the man will need to stop drinking. That has nothing to do with hell. Jesus came to save us from SIN. And I believe he uses 100% grace to do that. In Titus 2:11-12 Paul says that God's grace chastens us to abandon ungodliness. I'm not making that up. You can look it up if you like.

It has nothing to do with hell. Nothing to do with hell. I am talking abou salvation (sozo - healing, deliverance) from sin.

You can tell me that a man is saved from alcoholism from faith alone, but I believe that defies common sense. The abandoning of sin eventually requires action. Choosing NOT to do something is as much a work as choosing to do something. If the paraplegic is addicted to porn and faith causes the Spirit to come upon the person and free them from addiction, then choosing NOT to watch porn is a form of salvation that has occurred when faith meets works.

Hello Seth,
When I say there is not one verse in the Bible which states God is trying to save mankind from Hell, it is just that I am thinking out loud. It is not meant to correct someone.

Sure, there are people who, through sheer will have been able to give up being an alcoholic. But the question must be asked: Where did their sheer will come from? I say it came from God even if they are an unbeliever since "[God] gives to all, life and breath and ALL" (Acts 17:25).

And there are believers who, by being given faith by God, are able to give up being an alcoholic, by God's grace. Some believers are not given the grace to give up their alcoholism.  I knew one brother who died from that problem. Yet he was reckoned righteous by God.

I agree with you that we are being saved from many things in this life which might otherwise wreck us. Some things however God does not save us from, most likely to teach us our dependence upon Him among other things.

But the most important thing I feel I need to stress is that, like Abraham, we simply believe God as to what He has declared and God reckons us righteous.
God does not wait for us to give up this or that, join the Baptist Church or what ever church, does not wait for us to give up any sin. He gives us faith and tells us Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused the third day. God reckons us righteous for believing Him even though He gave us the faith to believe Him. He had to since that faith is not resident in the human prior to Him giving it.

[Seth]

Well I believe, for scriptural reasons already presented, that those who believe in Jesus but then continue to do things like molesting children etc, willfully, will face the wrath of God, for their own good, but their self perceived righteousness isn't going to carry them very far. God will not be mocked.

[Seth]

Ananias and Sapphira were believers. But they tested God and lied. You could say God considered them righteous. Yeah, but they were also dead.

[sheila]

 there's a difference between calling out for mercy unto God in honesty..because of awareness of your

lack.   and lying to other's and God[sin against spirit] and presenting yourself as more than you really are.


   HONESTY...He requires it. a sinner saved by grace and righteous standing in God's eyes as a recipitant

   of such grace..though unworthy   is more righteous in His eyes then he who prays to himself and says

   'I thank you God that I am not like this so and so over here"

    the crux of the matter is...if a fellow church member sin against you and molest your child.....you are

required to forgive him[you MUST FORGIVE those who sin against you]  that same child molester...though

put in prison or even put to death by the authorities...will be a new creature in ALL IN ALL.

[Seth]

Sheila, it's not a matter of whether or not we forgive, of course we should. It's a question of what the Bible says about judgement.

When Paul turned certain church members over to Satan for a certain education, it's not a matter of whether his father should have forgiven him or not. It's a question of how far did his righteousness take him as he was in the clutches of Satan, based not in what he believed or did not believe but based on what he did.