Especially=

[JillieRose]

μαλιστα  adverb
malista  mal'-is-tah:  (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly -- chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I am, in fact, agreeing with all of those as meanings.

I'll take the rest a bit at a time.

Why do you take Paul literal as you do in 1 Timothy 4:10 when Paul was not literal when he said "all Men" in so many of his other epistles??


Who will tell me why you use 'all men' literally in 1 Timothy 4:10 and not in Pauls other writtings?  Any chance that its conveniant?

Other occasions where Paul uses 'all men' (note, you asked for Paul, so Paul it is):

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"
(everyone in the world, ever, dies because of sin. So this one's ok.)

Romans 5:18 "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."
(Ah. This one is tricky to explain, Peacetroll. Because the first all men definitely means everybody, so the second should too, shouldn't it?)

Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."
(This one seems like an everybody, everywhere, everytime thing too, correct me if I'm wrong.)

1 Corinthians 7:7 "I wish thatall men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that"
(All men everywhere? All Christians? Discuss, but I think you can make a case for all men meaning all men here too.)

1 Corinthians 9:22 "To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some."
(Hmm. This one obviously cannot mean all men from context, just all men that Paul has met so far in his life. But the above examples clearly cannot be limited to just men Paul has met. Isn't context grand?)

1 Corinthians 12:6 "There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men."
(Pass. Anyone else care to take this one? It could mean either.)

1 Corinthians 15:9 "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men."
(Yes, I think that one means more than anyone, ever. Because if Christ is a false hope then they are throwing their lives away on Him. (Praise God that Jesus is alive!))

1 Thess 2:15 "who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men"
(Context: can't mean everyone, everywhere, ever, because they haven't lived forever in all places. So it just means all men they have come into contact with.)

1 Tim 2:4 "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
(Seems like an absolutely everybody thing to me here, too)

1 Tim 2:6 "who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time."
(I think that probably means what it says too, but feel free to disagree)

1 Tim 4:10 "(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."
(Our starting verse)

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."
(Another odd one.)

Titus 3:2 "to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men."
(I'm guessing all men here means 'everyone you meet'.)

Hebrews 12:14 "[ Warning Against Refusing God  ] Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."
(See previous)

Hebrews 12:23 "to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,"
(That one is DEFINITELY everybody!)

1 Peter 1:24 (ok, I know this one isn't Paul, but...) "For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall,"
(That's everybody too, isn't it?)

And what about the spiritual definition of 'man' that keeps being dodged.  Ah, I see this is too much deep critical thinking for some of you.  But its not your faults.

We haven't been dodging the question. You've just been flitting from one question to another without any conclusion being drawn. It confuses people like me, so please have patience.

I will deal with the spiritual definition of man when you tell me exactly how many of these texts mean 'all men' to mean something other than all men?

My answer: 6. And 5 of these refer to men doing something to 'all men'. And one I highlighted because I don't really know what it means. All but one of the ones that refer to God, who transcends time and so deals with absolutely everybody...I think you've got a strong case to say that when they say all, they mean ALL, ever.

[Peacetroll]

 Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Jesus IS that gate.

John 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

When He says destruction , He means destruction.

Concerning spiritual men, why did Jesus say this in prophesy

Psalm 22:12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Who had Jesus surrounded on the cross and gaped at Him and taunted Him?Here are three true witnesses.

Matthew 27:41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15:30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

When he said cast not your pearls of wisdom before swine,He wasn't talking about pigs.When he said the washed sow returns to the mud wallow he was speaking of people who heard and rejected the gospel of Christ.

You are only a man if you are part of that MAN which is in heaven, spiritually.Christ in you.Predestinated before the foundation of the world!

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.  

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.[/color]

[laren]

Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Matthew 7:13
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Jesus IS that gate.

John 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

When He says destruction , He means destruction.

Concerning spiritual men, why did Jesus say this in prophesy

Psalm 22:12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Who had Jesus surrounded on the cross and gaped at Him and taunted Him?Here are three true witnesses.

Matthew 27:41Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

42He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

43He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Mark 15:30Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

36And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,

When he said cast not your pearls of wisdom before swine,He wasn't talking about pigs.When he said the washed sow returns to the mud wallow he was speaking of people who heard and rejected the gospel of Christ.

You are only a man if you are part of that MAN which is in heaven, spiritually.Christ in you.Predestinated before the foundation of the world!

John 17:5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.  

7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.[/color]

So Peacetroll, to you; is life obtained now, or later for those with faith? 


I also wonder why, since most here have faith in Christ; that you come to a UR website to prove us wrong, rather than to fellowship in what we have in common?  faith in Jesus Christ

Do you feel that faith in Christ expressed as love is not enough, and that we must believe as you, in annihilation/second death, in order to avoid that fire?

Do you not have a forum for those who believe as you?? 

[laren]

also wondering what you think of the verse

re: those hardened in Romans 11

they are enemies for your sakes (referring to those with ears to hear) but beloved for the fathers sakes?

[Craig]

Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Yep. You just don't know what destruction is for. Jesus spoke in parables. You only see what you wanted to see, but that is not what he was saying.

Isaiah 45:22-24
"Turn to me and be saved,
      all you ends of the earth;
      for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
      my mouth has uttered in all integrity
      a word that will not be revoked:
      Before me every knee will bow;
      by me every tongue will swear.
They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
      are righteousness and strength.' "
      All who have raged against him
      will come to him and be put to shame.

Everyone is saved, including those who are put to shame, those who are destroyed, those who are hardened because in the end God swore himself, with full integrity which cannot be revoked. His gifts and callings are irrevocable. Before him, every knee will bow and every tongue will swear alligience and all will know that in the Lord alone are righteousness and strength. There is not one person who got there by any action or word or belief of their own, that includes those who raged against him.

Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So, as Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all {mankind}, and therefore all {mankind} died {in Him}. And he died for all {mankind}, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one {from all mankind} from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone {all mankind} is in Christ, he {all mankind} is a new creation; the old has gone {because He died for all mankind, and therefore all mankind died in Him}, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world {all mankind} to himself in Christ, not counting men's {all mankind} sins against them {all mankind}. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You read what you want to read Peacetroll, and that is why you struggle. You do not have revelation, nor has the Spirit confirmed this in you. I can only speak from logic, facts and experience. The Lord Himself came to me and told me what I read from logic, facts and experience, was indeed true. We all have to come out of the Church of Babylon's indoctrination. You still are stuck on revenge, vengence, and pride and ego.

[JillieRose]

Don't you all hear what you are saying?

You asked, I answered. It's the Bible, Peacetroll. I can't change it just because you don't like it. You asked for other times Paul had used all men to mean everybody, at all times, everywhere. I answered to the best of my ability. What you choose to glean from this is entirely up to you.

Now, seeing as you cannot debunk my line of argument, and instead are trying to tell me I'm talking nonsense, shall we move on? To reiterate: Jesus said He is the only way to God. I believe Him. That isn't necessarily incompatible with what I've just put forward. Ok?

Your second point was on the spiritual definition of man.

(Please note, I will take 'man' at all points to mean 'person of either sex'. It just makes it easier to say that at the start.)

Are we not told to build precept on precept??  If you consider a 'man' to simply mean a homo-sapien is this a good 'spiritual' therefore scriptural understanding in your opinion???

Do  you consider all homo-sapiens 'men' and 'alive'??!!!, when this is not the case when we approach scripture from a spritual standpoint.

If you define 'man' and 'mankind' in all scriptures as simply and literally 'homo-sapien kind' then you are right.  But I firmly believe there is a deeper, spiritual and more unostensible definition that slips by the majority of scripture readers.

There is no such word as unostensible, by the way. But that's irrelevant, I only mention it because I'm a stickler (the kind of person who likes Lynne Truss books).

OK, you want a meaning of the word 'man' that is spiritual.

If the spiritual definition is more important, and IF the spiritual definition of 'man' or 'mankind' is specifically those who have spirits from the true God (and it is evident by their fruits), then I am correct.

So you here define 'man' as 'Christian'. Am I right?

For a true man is one who believes in Christ and/or the Love of God and it has nothing to do with your testicles nor your flesh and blood make-up.

I see. Can you please provide a Scriptural reference for this?

Another point that nobody wants to discuss is the wide-sweeping generalization of 'all men' in context to other scriptures by Paul.  Paul uses 'all men' many times in his epistles and in the others he never ever literally means all homo-sapiens on earth.

I already covered that one.

So, in essence, you are claiming that 'man' and 'men' means 'Christian' and 'Christians'.

Please see my previous post for the quotes with 'men' in them. Please count how many refer only to Christians when they talk about men.

You could make a possible case for...one, maybe two if you reaaaaallllly stretched.

Sorry Peacetroll, but you haven't convinced me. Quote me some Scripture which defines 'man' as 'man who knows God' and we'll see, huh?

[laren]

Don't you all hear what you are saying?
Jesus Christ did not say both gates lead to life, Him.He said one,the gate,Him led to life,and the other to destruction.He meant it.

Yep. You just don't know what destruction is for. Jesus spoke in parables. You only see what you wanted to see, but that is not what he was saying.

Isaiah 45:22-24
"Turn to me and be saved,
      all you ends of the earth;
      for I am God, and there is no other.
By myself I have sworn,
      my mouth has uttered in all integrity
      a word that will not be revoked:
      Before me every knee will bow;
      by me every tongue will swear.
They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
      are righteousness and strength.' "
      All who have raged against him
      will come to him and be put to shame.

Everyone is saved, including those who are put to shame, those who are destroyed, those who are hardened because in the end God swore himself, with full integrity which cannot be revoked. His gifts and callings are irrevocable. Before him, every knee will bow and every tongue will swear alligience and all will know that in the Lord alone are righteousness and strength. There is not one person who got there by any action or word or belief of their own, that includes those who raged against him.

Romans 11:25-32
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
   "The deliverer will come from Zion;
      he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
And this is my covenant with them
      when I take away their sins."
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So, as Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:14-19
For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all {mankind}, and therefore all {mankind} died {in Him}. And he died for all {mankind}, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

So from now on we regard no one {from all mankind} from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone {all mankind} is in Christ, he {all mankind} is a new creation; the old has gone {because He died for all mankind, and therefore all mankind died in Him}, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world {all mankind} to himself in Christ, not counting men's {all mankind} sins against them {all mankind}. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

You read what you want to read Peacetroll, and that is why you struggle. You do not have revelation, nor has the Spirit confirmed this in you. I can only speak from logic, facts and experience. The Lord Himself came to me and told me what I read from logic, facts and experience, was indeed true. We all have to come out of the Church of Babylon's indoctrination. You still are stuck on revenge, vengence, and pride and ego.

Craig, thank you for this post.  I am so thankful that I have been given glimpses of his LOVE, and have through this revelation, slowly been able to know no man after the flesh, including myself.   

[Peacetroll]

Craig, because I say you have to have faith in Christ you slander me????!!.  oh well.  No offense taken.  I'd rebutal but I'd like to reply to another question.  I'm amazed at your personal attacks, and your insight into my heart (a feat hard to do for a man and reserved for God),... but I hold it not to your charge.

Back to scripture and adult discussion...

A Man is a person who has Christ indwelling.  Christ is the son of Man.  And those with Christ indwelling are 'Men' in the spiritual sense, and without Christ in you, you are not even considered Alive, LET alone a man to the true God!  HIT ME!!!

Without Christ in you, you are a spiritual 'beast' and have no life in you, and you believe the true God considers something not even alive a man???????????

Your coverage of the wide-sweeping generalization of 'all men' to literally mean all homo-sapiens is weak at best.  In fact its so weak I had to go back and try to PRY OUT any logic out of your arguement.

Here is an example of 'all men' used by Paul, you tell me directly if it means literally all people everywhere (couch :laughing7:).  I'm sorry, but I'm finding this hillarious (especially your statement about no word such as unostensible, when ostensible is a word and UN simply means NOT such and such).  Ah well.

Acts 2:45
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Did they part their possessions to all men (everyone on earth?).


Acts 4:21
So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them, because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

Did everyone on earth glorify God at that time for what was done?
please.

Acts 19:19
Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Again, all people on earth?  of course not.

Acts 22:15
For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Of course he was not a witness to everyone that ever lived on earth, was he.

1 Corinthians 9:22
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Obviously there where people in China who had not even heard of Paul.

1 Corinthians 10:33
Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Obviously he didn't please Ceaser nor the Pharisaical Jews who wished to see him dead.

2 Corinthians 3:2
Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

Gee, I guess he meant the Indians in America too?  Of course he did...NOT.


2 Thessalonians 3:2
And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

All men have not faith?  Is this a fact???????!!!!!!!!!

Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So what is it?  No men have faith or not?  Did Paul have faith in Christ?  In God?  Did Enoch?  did David?  Did John?

You have to take it in context.

'All Men' is most the time a state of speech that should not be taken literally most the time.

[Craig]

Craig, because I say you have to have faith in Christ you slander me????!!.  oh well.  No offense taken.  I'd rebutal but I'd like to reply to another question.  I'm amazed at your personal attacks, and your insight into my heart (a feat hard to do for a man and reserved for God),... but I hold it not to your charge.

I did not slander you, you made an accusation and that accusation came out of you. That accusation was addressed. Regardless if you see it or not, you are one track minded and see what you want to see regardless of the refuting opinions presented. Stating facts is not insulting, nothing I said was emotionally based. A person who lacks knowledge is ignorant, that is not an insult that is the truth. A child is not an adult, so to call an child a child, is not an insult, it is the truth.

You have yet to ADDRESS the rebuttle, instead you have ALWAYS brought new things to the table and that is your weakness. Once we refuted your position, you go on to the next thing without even addressing the fact you were refuted. Instead, you know you were refuted accurately and look for a new way to present your argument. That is because you will not drop your belief based on the facts, you just want to find facts that 'might' support your belief. This is a sign of denial.

So if you were truly concerned, you will revoke your claim that MALISTA means 'That is' or 'in otherwords' or prove it. Once it is disproved, you must drop it and recognize you were wrong.

[Peacetroll]

nor has the Spirit confirmed this in you

So much for your 'facts', at best this is your opinion.

Let God be my judge man.

So if you were truly concerned, you will revoke your claim that MALISTA means 'That is' or 'in otherwords' or prove it. Once it is disproved, you must drop it and recognize you were wrong.

I do not revoke my claim that Malista can mean 'that is' or 'particularly' for it absolutely can mean that.  I've already stated earlier that I understand your position, based on the english translation 'especially'.

For example (taking your side), If I say,...

"Save all the people, especially the women and children" then this means save everyone, paying special attention to the women and children. 

Given this definition (especially), I can see where you come from.  But there is more to the context of 1 Timothy 4:10 then meets the eye (I.E. spiritual definition of man, the use of 'all men' as a generalization NOT a literal statement, etc.).

I believe we can agree to disagree on 1 Timothy 4:10, but you sir still have not come to grips with the spiritual definition of Man, which is the only definition that concerns the true God.

[JillieRose]

He's doing a really excellent job, though, SotW. Really, because I am by no means a Biblical universalist but he's really convincing me of, at the very least, the logic of your arguments.

See? God works all things to the good of those who love Him.

My point, Peacetroll, is that:

'all men' in the context of people, means 'everyone you know, meet, etc' because we are finite, temporal, and limited by geography, but
When God does something for 'all men' He does it for everyone He knows (which is everybody, ever).

Like you said, you have to take it in context. Death came to all men through Adam. Life comes to all men through Christ. What is your interpretation of this, please?

[Peacetroll]

I'm glad you ask.

This is a much misunderstood parable that I hope to clarify.

1 Corinthians 15:21-23
For since by man came death (Adam and the Tree of Knowledge!), by man came also the resurrection of the dead.(Christ!)

(1)For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(1)As in Adam all die.

This means all who are in the image of Adam die.  The flesh.  The flesh profits nothing.  All homo-sapiens will die because they are IN Adam (or IN his likeness..the flesh).  All IN Adam (and not in Christ) are spiritually dead. 

Adam sealed the fate of all homo-sapiens via his unobediance to the true God (which was realized by his eating of the Tree of Knowledge).  This brought spiritual death to Homo-sapien kind.


1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, (2) even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

(2) even so ((in)) Christ shall all be made alive

This means ALL IN Christ are made alive.  Not all born of woman are IN Christ.  The evidence of being IN CHRIST are faith in Jesus, Love for others and the fruits do follow. 

One more time, ALL homo-sapiens are IN Adam.  But not all homo-sapiens are IN Christ.  Follow?

Unless you are IN Christ you are not alive and are dead (spiritually), thus as IN ADAM all die (spiritually and physically)!

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

Paul spoke of those who believe in Christ being one body IN Christ!

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

I honestly hope you can grasp what I am trying to tell you.

Peace and LIFE IN CHRIST.

[JillieRose]

I see. A good, logical, nicely presented argument. Kudos.

One question, as I know very little about Greek grammar:

Wouldn't it just have been easier for Paul to say "even so, all in Christ shall be made alive" rather than "in Christ all shall be made alive" if that's not what he meant?

See, "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" suggests to me that EVERYONE shall be made alive (because of Christ).

but "as in Adam all die, even so all in Christ shall be made alive" suggests to me that it's only those in Christ who shall be made alive.

I know nada about Greek grammar, so can someone look it up and explain to me the original word order and which of these it means?

Thank you kindly.

[Craig]

He's doing a really excellent job, though, SotW. Really, because I am by no means a Biblical universalist but he's really convincing me of, at the very least, the logic of your arguments.

Sorry, I did not understand your reply?

[JillieRose]

I'm saying, SotW, that you don't have to do any fancy arguing to convince me of Biblical Universalism.

This is because our friend who argues against it does such a spectacularly bad job that I end up agreeing with you.  :laughing7:

[FineLinen]

Troll: come down out of your cherry tree at your earliest convenience and disclose to us what
"especially" means in all English dictionaries. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And again does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?

Finelinen.  If you would have read the previous threads you will see (on page one), that I give multiple definitions of malista and it honestly depends on the context like so many words and languages do.  Malista can mean many things.  'specially'...'particularly'...'in other words'.....'especially'.....so I'm not sure what your digging for.

I am digging for the meaning of malista in English and Koine. Does it mean exclusively or only? Does it Cherry Picker?  :mshock:

1 Tim. 4:10

We accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe. -Wm. Barclay N.T.-

"And above all"= especially= malista=

Chiefly.

Most of all/ above all.

Especially.

To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.

Encarta World Dictionary

1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.

2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.

3. Chiefly

4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.

American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language

To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis --particulary.

Infoplease Dictionary

Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly.

Miriam Webster

For a particular purpose.

To an extent or degree deserving special emphasis.

In an especial manner; chiefly; particularily; in an uncommon degree.

Cambridge Dictionary Of American English

Used to emphasize the importance of one thing among others of its type or to the point of one thing among others-- particularly

Please note:

Malista does not mean monon or monos!

Monon= exclusively/ only

Malista= especially/ chiefly/ most of all/ above all.

"He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins only/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude."

I'm just pointing out the obvious fact that it makes no sense to say someone is 'especially' saved, and that is basically what one is saying when they say 'all men are saved, especially those that believe' in my opinion.

As much as we value your opinion, there are many dimensions of salvation and many/ polus abodes in our Lord's great Kingdom. Can you tell us if firstfruits are the whole harvest?

[Craig]

I'm saying, SotW, that you don't have to do any fancy arguing to convince me of Biblical Universalism.

This is because our friend who argues against it does such a spectacularly bad job that I end up agreeing with you.  :laughing7:

oooh, ya. That is what I thought you said. :)

[laren]

Peacetroll, reposted

also wondering what you think of the verse

they are enemies for your sakes (referring to those with ears to hear) but beloved for the fathers sakes?

in Romans 11.

thanks.  

[Craig]

I believe we can agree to disagree on 1 Timothy 4:10, but you sir still have not come to grips with the spiritual definition of Man, which is the only definition that concerns the true God.

Then you admit you were wrong about Malista, good. That Jesus is savior of all 'spiritual' men, especially those who believe. Now that statement doesn't even make sense.

[FineLinen]

I know nada about Greek grammar, so can someone look it up and explain to me the original word order and which of these it means?

Thank you kindly.

Bible Crosswalk

Especially=

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=especially&section=2&version=str&language=en

Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Ti&chapter=4&verse=10&version=KJV#10

We toil and agonize because our hopes are set on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all men--of believers in particular. -Montgomery-

James Moffatt

We toil and strive, because our hope is fixed on the living God, the Saviour of all men--of believers in particular.

Analytical/ Literal Translation

For this [reason] we both labour and are insulted [or, denounced], because we have placed our hope on [or, have trusted in] the living God, who is [the] Saviour [or, Preserver] of all people, especially believers.

The New Testament Of The Jerusalem Bible

I mean the point of all our toiling and battling is that we have put our trust in the living God and He is the Saviour of the whole human race, but particulary of believers.

Jonathan Mitchell New Testament

HERE

http://greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/index.html

9. The Word [is] full of faith (or: Faithful {Trustworthy} [is] the word) and worthy of all welcomed reception,

10. for into this [end] are we constantly working hard unto weariness, and are continuously struggling in the contest (contending for the prize; other MSS: being reproached), because we have placed our expectation (hope) and thus rely upon a living God (or: upon [the] living God), Who is (exists being) [the] Savior (Deliverer; Rescuer; Restorer to health and wholeness) of all mankind ‑ especially of believers (of ones full of faith and trust; of faithful ones)!

11. Be constantly announcing these things to those at your side, passing them along from one to another, and keep on teaching them!

Dr. Wm. Barclay New Testament

It is for this reason that we accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe.

[JillieRose]

"as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

This was the quote I meant, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The meaning of 1 Tim 4:10 seems to be just what you said, so that one's grand. Thank you.

[FineLinen]

"as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive"

This was the quote I meant, sorry if I didn't make that clear.

The meaning of 1 Tim 4:10 seems to be just what you said, so that one's grand. Thank you.

Actually J.R. you were clear. I however have become discombobulated with Troll,  and my poor mind has suffered as a result.  :happygrin:

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive...

Bible Crosswalk

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?new=1&word=as+in+adam+all+die&section=2&version=str&language=en

Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=1Cr&chapter=15&verse=22&version=KJV#22

It is an interesting fact that the making alive in Christ Jesus is in stages ultimately consummating in every enemy being made subject to Him by the working of hupotasso that God may be all in all.

Hupotasso=

To arrange under/ to subordinate.

To subject/ to put in subjection.

To subject one's self/ to obey.

To submit to one's control.

To yield to one's admonition and advice.

To obey/ be subject.

For the whole of created life was made subject (hupotasso) to slavery, not willingly (not by any choice of its own), but by  reason of Him who has so subjected (hupotasso) the same in hope. Because the whole of created life shall be delivered from its slavery and shackles of mortality into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

[Craig]

[Isa 29:8]
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains;
as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched.
So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.


Very curious.
Can a man have a full stomach with the-pie-in-the-sky?

You misread Isa 29:8. As long as they fight against Mount Zion is when they remain hungry and thirsty.

Romans 12:19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

[70sevens]

Really, you construe the salvations in many different meanings.

No I don't. Not all salvations are the same, but in the end all mankind is saved in Christ Jesus. It is very simple.

The man who built with gold, silver and precious gems versus the man who built with wood, hay and stubble, but are saved in the end. However, when the fire went through, the man who built with good material was untouched he was saved the pain of loss; while the man who built with poor materials lost everything but is saved as one through fire.

The man who is obedient is saved from disipline; the man who is disobedient is not saved from displine, but the end result of righteousness is the same.

The man who trusts in the information given to him is accurate when it is, is saved the work of trying to do something himself which has already been proven by others; yet, the end result is the same.

Unlike some, I am not simple minded or foolish to make hasty generalizations or commit the either/or fallacies which so many who cannot see the bigger picture ever understand.

Proverbs 8:5
You who are simple, gain prudence; you who are foolish, gain understanding.

Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation. However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction.

Hebrews 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.

Some are saved this life, some are not saved this life. Some are healed (salvation) some are not healed. Etc. These all mean salvation in some sort and in some manner, and not all salvations described in Scripture all mean the same salvation. The only conclusion however, is all will recieve the final and lasting Salvation, which comes only through and in Jesus Christ; when God is all in all.

1.
Would you please answer to my question without going off-focus?
Remember, when we are discussing the following verse

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.

you said the salvation mentioned above is not the same with 'all in all salvation'.
So I asked you how was it different sepcifically.
I want you to tell me "salvation in 1Ti 4:10 vursus 'all in all salvation",
this is where we are.
I will hear from you about 1Cor, Hebrews, Proverbs later,
after I confirm this bit with you.

2.
Quote-------------------------------
Whether you enter the narrow or wide gate, they all lead into the city of salvation.
However, depending on the gate you took, will you have gotten there through life or destruction
---------------------------------------

This statement directly contradicts to what Jesus is saying.
Jesus is the narrow gate itself, i.e. salvation.
No salvation remains after this gate, Jesus.
City of salvation for all??? No chance.
In that case Jesus died in vain and for nothing.

Anyway please answer the above question,
truth will be revealed bit by bit.

[70sevens]

[Isa 29:8]
as when a hungry man dreams that he is eating, but he awakens, and his hunger remains;
as when a thirsty man dreams that he is drinking, but he awakens faint, with his thirst unquenched.
So will it be with the hordes of all the nations that fight against Mount Zion.


Very curious.
Can a man have a full stomach with the-pie-in-the-sky?

You misread Isa 29:8. As long as they fight against Mount Zion is when they remain hungry and thirsty.

Romans 12:19-21
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

My quote [Isa29:8] was from NIV,
nevertheless I can accept your quote,
as I do not see any contraditons in meaning.
On what basis you said I, NIV, misread?

I do not wish to widen the subject.
So I will hear from you only,
if  I do no not have strong obejction.