Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[Psalm91:4]

Excellent points, guys!    :dsunny:

Context is of vital importance.

[eaglesway]

I really think enduring to the end means this thread(I'm on a roll tonight LOL)

No really, fitting to come full circle, in my opinion enduring to the end is about believing- "this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith".

Remember Job? His wife told him to curse God and die? (I wonder who had momentary control of her vocal chords, eh? Who had something to gain by THAT statement?). But Job did not curse God. He complained and presented His case but in the end he got a good look at himself and said, "My ears had heard but now my eyes have seen and I abhor myself"- he received a deeper revelation of YHWH, the I AM.

1 Petr 4:12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; 13but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation....

[ed]

I was in a group that taught "sonship rights".  They liked the number 5, the number of grace.

Been following this thread with mild interest, because I get it.  The thing with that particular group was they really believed they were righteous and often lived like the devil.

Here are the 5:

Sonship Right #1 The believer is Redeemed. Bought back to the Father by the price of blood.

Sonship Right #2 The believer is Justified. Being cleansed of sin by the blood just as if the believer has done no wrong

Sonship Right #3 The believer is Sanctified. To make holy, purify or consecrated for the Fathers business.

Sonship Right #4 The believer is made righteous. Made right by the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

Sonship Right #5 The believer has been given the Ministry of Reconciliation, to speak the Word of God so that others may hear and believe and be reconciled/made right before God.

With link:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread766779/pg1

The sonship rights applied when in fellowship.

For me, righteousness is important mixed with asking for forgiveness, which brings us back into fellowship and the righteous place in Christ Jesus.

When we sin willfully there is a fearful looking for judgement involved.

What does being righteous in Christ accomplish for us?  For me, it helps in my realization of the what Christ accomplished for me, that I could not accomplish on my own.  There is a resting place in His righteousness that is transferred to us, so that we can over come guilt of the past, and present.  We humbly claim His righteousness in our times of turmoil.  The past that is important is the accomplished work of Jesus Christ for our sake.  His work cleanses us from all unrighteousness.  It really is a glorious thing to hold in faith,  it is part of our armor and shield..........

"Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked."

[ed]

all those scrips.  reminds me again of context, what's surrounding it, what's the story in that particular scene.

"I'm really living".      Do I mean, I've passed from death to life through the grace of God and Christ's work on the cross?  Or do I mean, I'm at an amusement park having the time of my life? (not likely).   Or do I mean, I was told last week I was going to die due to a blocked carotid, but the doctor performed expert surgery with God's blessing and help so I'm not going to die this week (as far as I know)?   

Just to pull out one of those scrips, asking more questions to make the point of context rather than trying to "explain" it.  "He who endures to the end shall be saved".  Someone asked me once, "to the end of what"?  Good question.  Also a good question, what does saved mean in that context?     Does it mean their physical lives saved from a specific event or set of circumstances, or something else?  I know folks in the circles I grew up who use that verse to mean "hang in there for all you're worth, and when Jesus comes back, if you're living right when He comes,  you'll go to heaven and not be cast into hell".  Me, I don't think it means that.  I don't think it's talking about salvation of the spirit at all, because again, that's a free gift given by God.  He ensures that it me, drawing me back, disciplining me, giving me grace sufficient for my weaknesses.  I don't have to struggle in my own efforts or goodness to keep it.   So is it more about the tribulation coming upon the Jews in 70 AD perhaps?  If not that, then something else along those lines?    On the other hand, if it is talking about salvation of the spirit/being a child of God, then I'd have to believe whoever endures to the end is accomplished by Him in and through us anyway.  So that He will ensure it, as He's sealed us unto that Day and He's the Author and Finisher of our faith.  :)     :2c:
-------------
"We've been missing the boat".   :laugh:  :thumbsup:

:goodpost:


I agree.  Saved needs a context and application.  We can apply the verses incorrectly, But we always have the spirit to help us even though we apply them incorrectly.  That is what I love about really believing that "God is with us" in every moment of time...............he does not leave us even though we wrongly apply scripture, probably often.

[Tony N]

I see the difference here in what you two are talking about is 1) saved (having become a child of God through the gift of faith in Christ as Savior)   and  2) delivered/experiencing healing (either instantaneously/miraculously, or over time through growth and discipline/correction.  Maturity, overcoming.)

I believe one can be a child of God, truly having received Him through faith in His name (Jn. 1:12  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God")  yet still have lots of room to grow, be healed, be delivered, etc.    Just because one hasn't as yet reached perfection and perfect healing and deliverance, etc., IMO doesn't mean they as yet don't know God, aren't saved, etc., as that's a free gift, when, as, and to whom God gives it.

That's right. If we had to be perfect in this life to be saved then why does God go through all the trouble of "dealing graciously with ALL our offenses"?

[Seth]

Also, we all make a big deal out of studying the Hebrew meaning of things. That's why many of us began to change from ET. What about the Hebrew understanding of faith? Where does that fit into our UR understanding?

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_faith.html
http://www.egrc.net/articles/Rock/HebrewWords/emunah.html

[Seth]

I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.

[Tony N]

I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.

Hi Seth,
It is possible I misunderstand what you are getting at.
This is what I found from Paul:

Rom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."

What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things. But he was still righteous if he failed in his attempts at obeying God since God declared him righteous.

What are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.

[eaglesway]

I believe that Paul was contrasting faith with works of the Law, his topic of discussion in Romans 4 being physical circumcision. I don't think he meant to contrast belief with obedience itself. I think he saw them as naturally co-existing. The Spirit-led believers are no longer under the Law, which is his point at the end of Romans 2 and Galatians 5. That's why I believe Paul said that Abraham is the father of those who WALK in steps of faith.

Hi Seth,
It is possible I misunderstand what you are getting at.
This is what I found from Paul:

Rom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."

What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things. But he was still righteous if he failed in his attempts at obeying God since God declared him righteous.

What are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.

"It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia."

So you are not calling that works- but Paul called them works prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them, so there is perhaps some crossways terminolgy going on here.

IMO, it is kind of a fine line we are talking about, and worth the continuing conversation, to make it not so fine.

We are not saved by works. If we are saved there will be works, but not of law..... of love through trust.

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

33just as it is written,
            "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
            AND HE WHO BELIEVES(trusts) IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Abraham was justified by faith and received a promise, yet God refers to his works continually, but it was not works of law it was the obedience of faith, which involves trust.

The works of the law says, "He that keeps them must live by them" and "He that breaks the law in one part has broken all the law".

The obedience of faith says, "I believe and trust and love, therefore I will obey'- but the obedience, and the ability to carry it through is in itself the result of the promise, opened up through belief, a seed of faith planted in the heart that will spring up in works. But works of love, not of law.  Abraham was the friend of God. Jesus said, "I have called you friends".

"Lord, Lord, Didnt we prophesy and cast out demons in your name?".........I was hungry and you fed me not.....Depart from me" It is possible to pursue Christian faith in the same stumbling as Israel, pursuing our own righteousness, stumbling over the stumbling block. It is also possible to hold our faith in vain, having no works of love proceeding from it.

"A new command I give you. Love one another". Our faith is the faith of Abraham, the friend of God. There is a desire to please God within this faith, because it is "Christ in you", and love flows through that opening, because faith works by love.

Ro 1:5 Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Ro 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but FAITH WORKING THROUGH LOVE.

So the faith that we have received reveals itself through love, as in the two great commandments, by "Christ in you", who enters by belief.


Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

But why did he obey and go? Not because of a command, but because he trusted YHWH as friend, believed Him to be faithful.

Faith is not mere mental assent. Faith is not a new opinion of our ability. It is a high opinion of God's good pleasure towards us working through us by love, and trusting in it.

Simply put, we disobey what we don't believe, we obey what we do believe.

Believing Christ crucified(and raised) is the cure- when they looked at the snake on the stick they were cured. When we see Christ crucified we are cured. We are cured by receiving Him within us, "I live yet not I, but Christ lives in me". He begins doing the works, having planted love within us by faith. "It is God who is in you to will and to do of His good pleasure".

Gen 22:4 I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws

Someone might read the above verse and conclude Abraham kept the law, and they would be right in a Romans 2 kinda way, because not having the law contained in ordinances, Abraham was a law unto himself and pleased God. His conduct flowed from his faith which flowed from his trust relationship with YHWH.

Gen 23:16 and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. "In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

How did Abraham obey His voice? In loving God and caring for the ecclesia(Lot, Sarah, isaac). Works of "faith expressing itself through love".

"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."
16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

If you read the story it is clear their unbelief was failure to trust. They could not obey because they did not trust/believe God's intentions towards them.

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.


Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near....

[gregoryfl]

The simplest way I have come to understand it is:

If I choose to love someone in hopes of getting something in return from them, such love is of works. My motivation is on what I receive.

If I choose to love someone because I value them and am moved because of that to love them, such love is of faith. My motivation is on what I see (by faith) in them. By the way, this applies to my enemies as well.

Much talk is made of loving others, and it is a good thing. But even the action can be done in such a way that ends up being a work, just as much as anything we normally consider 'work'.

Ronen

[Tom]

I agree because I think true love seeks to give, to share God's love, with others. That's why our "works" are the fruit of our salvation, not the means to achieve it as some sort of compensation. God is not only the source of love, but God is love. We love our brothers and sisters because the holy spirit of God flows through us into them, and it should continue to flow through them into others not because we all expect something in return but because we're compelled by the love of God to share God's love with all whom we associate.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)

[Tony N]

Hey eaglesway,
I don't say the below to correct you. I'm just talking out loud. . .

Here is the contextual setting of the Ephesians verse you quoted:

Ephesians 2:8-10  For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you;
it is God's approach present,  (9)  not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." 
(10)  For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them."

Notice God brought His own approach present, His Son. Therefore salvation is not of works. If it were, we could boast
in saving ourselves. I'm glad we agree on that.  :iagree:

Not only that but we are His achievement. Anything we do concerning good works is "God operating in you to will as well
as to work for the sake of His delight."

Also, it is not a law that we MUST do good works such as helping our neighbor, enemy or brother or sister in Christ. It is ideal.
It is not done to save ourselves nor is it a way to lose one's salvation should they fail in the ideal.

P.S. "obedience" in the Scriptures is "hearing." When we obey the gospel/evangel we actually hear it. We hear that Christ actually, truly did die for our sins,
was entombed and roused the third day. In actually hearing that we are obeying it by believing it. Dig?

[jabcat]

I've heard it said, "it's not faith and works.  It's faith that works."

[Seth]

Rom 4:12 and the father of the Circumcision, not to those of the Circumcision only, but to those also
who are observing the elements of the faith in the footprints of our father Abraham, in uncircumcision."

What were the footprints of Abraham in uncircumcision? If we follow his footprints we see he believed God and did nothing,
as it pertains to the flesh, to be made righteous. Faith is the footprints of Abraham. It is only after he was circumcised that God
told Abraham to DO certain things.

Footprints means walking. We follow in footprints because Abraham walked by faith, so we walk by faith too. You say, he did nothing "as it pertains to the flesh." Well, this is why Paul said to walk according to the Spirit. So the comparison between Abraham and us, is that Abraham did not follow a Law. But, he had what the Hebrews called "enumah" which is faithfulness. It's not simply belief alone, but a faithfulness to be obedient to God, not because of a written set of rules, but because he was a friend of God.

Again, brother, if you are going to take into consideration Sheol, and Olam and be influenced by those Hebrew concepts to believe in UR, why not take into consideration the Hebrew understanding of faith, and what it means to have faith? That would be consistent wouldn't it?

What are the elements of the faith Paul tells the nations? It is that believing God that Christ died for our sins, was entombed
and roused again the third day that that one is righteous. It is not mixing works with grace to be righteous. Those who are
righteous should be concerned with loving their neighbor as themselves and loving and caring for those in the ecclesia.

According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance, and will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.

[Seth]

Think about this: what do you think Jesus will say to someone who has an intellectual belief in Jesus and agrees that he was raised from the dead, who goes about molesting and murdering children? Well done, my good and faithful servant? The answer to that question will lead back to what "enumah" is.

[Seth]

Folks are always quoting a TINY fraction of Ephesians 2 about works. But look at the context of what is says about salvation:

Ephesians 2
2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

In other words, THEY WERE SAVED FROM BEING DISOBEDIENT by being unified together with Christ (saved by his life - Romans 5:10). That is why works DO have something to do with salvation, JUST NOT OUR OWN WORKS.

Grace = made us alive together with Christ

....SO THAT....

We are formerly dead in transgressions, no longer following them, and THUS we are saved/healed/delivered:

Titus 3
3 At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior

I don't see these scriptures saying that we were saved AND THEN did good works. We were saved FROM doing evil works by being unified by the Spirit with Christ (by grace ye are saved)

[sheila]

well.Saul/Paul went about molesting and murdering the little children..thinking he was doing God a service..no different.......

   we shall all be changed...the corrupt image all men have bore..will come to it's end..and the new image in Christ shall be.

   Jesus said...the night comes when no man can work...all the virgins slept...the enemy sowed the tares in the night

   the separating of wheat and tares is part of the harvest work. the distinction of seed from seed shall be made..and to each

   a body is given. One for the fire and one for the barn

  THE NIGHT COMES AND NO MAN CAN WORK...at times such as these..it is good to rest in His works.to KNOW that if a kernel of

wheat falls to the earth and dies..it bears much fruit unto heaven.

[Seth]

well.Saul/Paul went about molesting and murdering the little children..thinking he was doing God a service..no different.......

You are telling me that after believing in Jesus and preaching the Gospel, Paul went around molesting children? No, right? SO IT IS DIFFERENT.

[sheila]

 no..it is not different...you break one law..your guilty of them all....in God's eyes..all were bound up in disobedience..and all shall

  receive grace.   I am glad I am not like this sinner over here.  where sin abounds grace abounds more. this is how it must be

for ALL mankind to be redeemed..and all are redeemed/purchased by His blood.  the flesh shall return to the dust and the spirit

return unto God.

  do you not understand that people who do such things have been taken over by evil spirits..and are out of their mind?

   ....for we are many[seeds of the darkness] and that Jesus Christ shall separate in the harvest.

   Quit judging by appearance..and see it with His eyes....the man/men at Gerar..one did obedience and fell at his feet...

  two men/one man?...two men shall be in a bed..two women at the hand mill.

[Seth]

do you not understand that people who do such things have been taken over by evil spirits..and are out of their mind?

Yes, Sheila, that is my point. Paul no longer did those things because he was saved from them. Those who believe in Jesus and molest children are not saved from those things unless they STOP doing those things.

[Tony N]

According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,

Really? What verse is that? Paul was not saying they are saved by what they do. He was saying that people whose lives are characterized by certain failing will not be enjoying an allotment in the kingdom of God. That does not mean they "won't go to heaven." It just means they will not have a part in God's kingdom administration. He needs only so many chiefs. The rest are citizens of that kingdom. Eonian life cannot be earned and cannot be lost due to what we do or fail to do. Reigning with Christ is another matter. Those whose lives are characterized by denying the Lord, the Lord will refuse them to reign with Him. But that again is part of the kingdom administration and has nothing to do with receiving or losing eonian life which is life for the oncoming eons.

and will be judged according to their works. This is because, I believe, Paul was speaking about "enumah" when he spoke about faith and what it means to believe God, which is a steadfast faithfulness and obedience to the Lord, not belief only.

Paul never once said believers are judged according to their works.
So a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?

[sheila]

Paul spoke of himself as one being born prematurely. He is an example of the change that will take place in all such men.

  a new name/new spirit

[Seth]

According to Paul, those who fail to obey God have no kingdom inheritance,

Really? What verse is that?

1 Cor 6
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Again, washed, sanctified, saved by his life, and that way "such WERE some of you"

Paul never once said believers are judged according to their works.

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will repay each person according to what they have done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

So a person who is a paraplegic who can't do anything is hellbound even if he believes in Christ since he can't do any good works?

Hellbound? Who is talking about hell?

We are obviously talking about a different kind of salvation if you are concerned about people being saved from being hellbound.

[sheila]

the seed/tree is judged according to it's fruits/works. Jesus said..'I judge no man"  make the tree good or make the tree evil.....

  the corrupt image all men have bore is evil..the incorrupt image all men shall bear through redemption grace/is the goodness of God

   theres a law against mixing......the TOKOGAE is just that mixing...the TOL has no evil/death in it. Until men eat of the tol and

the sword of the word has rightly divided/seperated them...we are a mix......then the flaming spirit sword allows to eat of the

  TOL

[Seth]

It's not mixing Sheila. He says those who sin WITHOUT the law, shall perish without the Law. The reason is because the works they do destroy them. He covered that in Romans 1, how that God left them to destroy themselves and each other when they followed other gods. You don't need to mix law with grace to know that a man will reap what he sows.