repent and be baptized

[Seth]

Its a fine line to draw between "believing" and "life", I think. I can see the reason for the distinction in terms of defning aspects of salvation.

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

I do agree, that is absolutely clear. But look what he says, he who believes has eonian life. Right. That's my point. We access the spirit via faith. I don't mean to sound like I am nit picking about this. I think if we start saying that belief is life, it's like saying "HIS life" is essentially an abstract concept, rather than being the Holy Spirit.

I just see the distinction clearly in Peter when he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." We access the resurrection of Jesus Christ through faith.

I'm just saying, I don't see any problem saying that baptism saves us if it is the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spirit DOES save us.

[Seth]

I actually don't think I am making a very controversial point. Even if Peter never said that baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it's still an accurate thing to say that the Spirit has saving power. So that baptism of the Spirit has saving power. It doesn't?

[eaglesway]

I am not trying to nipick either, just discussing, really :o)  The baitsm of the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke of definitely heals and delivers us. My point was that salvation is a three in one thing, blood water and Spirit- and the blood is applied at belief, at which point we are united to the body of Christ.

The way I see it the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire Jesus spoke of is in addition to all that, and must be renewed. "Be filled with the Spirit". In Acts 4 we read where they were all again "filled with the Spirit".

I really don't kno how best to repsond to, "the Spirit has saving power doesnt it" because I had just said everything that happens to us happens by the Spirit- so I am not sure if you are asking about intial salvation or continuing salvation- so I will respond to both, just in the way of sharing my perspective.

All saving power is by the Spirit. The Spirit works to saves us in several ways- through the washing of water with the word(hearing the word of God with faith believing) through the gifts and fruit of the Spirit, and through continually renewing through prayer and study and fellowship that fulness - which allows the saving power of the Spirit to reach overcoming levels in terms  of walking with Christ in His nature and His ways. Whether we lay hands on the sick, or teach the word, or minister to the poor, or castout demons, or comfort the afflicted- all is by the Spirit, but not everyone understand(imo) the renewable nature of the Holy Spirit baptism, so many walk in defeat to the enemies in their own land(faults, sins, character flaws, demonic powers, addictions).

In a much smaller way, but nevertheless signifigant way, yes, I believe baptism in water saves us, as Peter said and as Peter ministered it- as deliverance from a guilty conscience, which Paul described as burial of the body of the sins of the flesh.

[Seth]

But what if someone has received faith and the holy spirit and believes and they don't have a guilty conscience? I mean you do see that Peter says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" when he says that baptism saves right? Why is it impossible that he is talking about the baptism of the Spirit in that scripture?

[eaglesway]

Because he specifically refers to salvation through water. followed by "in the same manner" baptism now also saves you(renders a delivering effect). I dont want to be too repetitive, but Peter's practice and message in Acts removes any doubt about that, for me- and is confirmed by Paul's practise as well. I mean, I think these men were IMMERSED continually in the Spirit and spoke and ministered as they were IMPELLED BY THE SPIRIT and the living word within them

At some point(imo), either we accept that there is a reason for baptism in water that motivated their faithful, consistent ministering of it and attention to it- or we acknwledge that the apostles were moving in a religious motivation that was not of importance to God.

I cannot make that acknowledgment- because I believe ESPECIALLY IN THAT TIME, in which Acts is depicting the intensity of the Spirit upon them, and the life, love, power and dynamism that was in their Acts- they were being moved in the sovereign expression of the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ in them by the Spirit- holy men moved of God IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, and IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

[eaglesway]

I believe in the apostles as the foundation stones, and see them as greater than the prophets of old, including Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, or Moses..... not because of anything within themselves, but by calling and election as the founding associates of Jesus Christ.

[Seth]

Because he specifically refers to salvation through water. followed by "in the same manner" baptism now also saves you(renders a delivering effect). I dont want to be too repetitive, but Peter's practice and message in Acts removes any doubt about that, for me- and is confirmed by Paul's practise as well. I mean, I think these men were IMMERSED continually in the Spirit and spoke and ministered as they were IMPELLED BY THE SPIRIT and the living word within them

At some point(imo), either we accept that there is a reason for baptism in water that motivated their faithful, consistent ministering of it and attention to it- or we acknwledge that the apostles were moving in a religious motivation that was not of importance to God.

I cannot make that acknowledgment- because I believe ESPECIALLY IN THAT TIME, in which Acts is depicting the intensity of the Spirit upon them, and the life, love, power and dynamism that was in their Acts- they were being moved in the sovereign expression of the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ in them by the Spirit- holy men moved of God IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, and IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Where does it say "in the same manner?"

The word he uses is "antitupos" which means "representing by type of pattern." The word appears here too

Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

In 1 Peter it says "like figure whereunto baptism also saves." In other words, the Noah account is a type/figure of the baptism that saves. The whole thing in context is about the Spirit:

1Peter 3
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Just because Peter practiced water baptism doesn't mean he is talking about water baptism in that scripture. I think he is clearly speaking of the quickening Spirit then using the Noah account as a type figure of the resurrection Spirit that does save us.

[eaglesway]

My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.

He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....

It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.

[eaglesway]

IMO the flood and the burial of the "horse and rider" in the Red Sea are both typologically relevant to the grace ministered to a believer in baptism.

Asking, "What if a person has not been baptized but does not have a bad conscience" is for me, not relevant, because the horse and rider is stil riding(the carnal mind) if they do not acknowledge the efficacy of baptism. The answer of a clear conscience is a matter of understanding, even more than a matter of experience, that  the word of God is faithful, and we can trust God in doing what we do not understand.

The Israelites did not know, when they stepped into the Red Sea floor and walked between the piles of water on dry ground that Pharoah would be buried there- that there captives power would be broke there. And this was not a "limitless" benefit of grace, in that they carried their captors within them and raised them up again in the golden calf they made while Moses was on the mountain. Some also later "went back" to Egypt.

That's why I say baptism provides "a measure" of grace- a part of the "start-up" kit of disciples. It is not "regenerational". Neither is it, "mere symbol".

[Seth]

My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.

He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....

It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.

He doesn't say that baptism is a symbol, brother. He says that Noah's account corresponds as a TYPE or a FIGURE of the baptism that saves us, which is through the resurrection of the Jesus Christ.

Noah's account is a symbol of the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spriit is the resurrected life of Jesus. Like Hebrews, the earthly things are figures of the true. Jesus is the true. He is the fulfillment of the pattern.

The scripture is clear on this that those who are in Christ are free from condemnation. Nobody who has not had a water baptism should have a guilty conscious. The Spirit has freed them from sin.

Water baptism does not provide a measure of Grace. Grace comes by faith alone.

[eaglesway]

Another type relevant to baptism is the story of Naaman and Elisha,

10 Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean." 11 But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.' 12 Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?" 14 So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.

What made the water of the Jordan(typical of death, and "crossing over") important was "the word of the man of God". If the man of God had said something else(as naamun's serving girl said)- that thing would have been the method by which Naamun was cleansed, delivered, restored.

But Jesus is our "man of God". His word our "spirit of prophecy". if He institued baptism it is not by us, "Beghold, I thought". it is just the opposite, it is "the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural mind". I accepted the word of the "man of God" Jesus who transferred that word through His founding associates, the apostles, and I have been maintaining that that "wordd" is still in effect within the covenant still in effect- but only for the benefit of those to whom it was given, and not as a "law" through which to condemn anyone. Simply as a step of faith in the word of our "man of God" Jesus.

Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.

He that believes not will be condemned.

He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.

Condemned to what? Remaining in unbelief, remain in the Adamic nature. Building life in a world that is already passing away, a life of which nothing can be carried on into the aions, "Store not up for yourselves riches on earth.....Store up riches in heaven"

Building gold, silver and precious stone is for disciples. "If you abide in me and I abide in you you will bear fruit and your fruit will remain".

If Naamun had not obeyed, his only condemnation would have been remaining leprous.

[Seth]

Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.

He that believes not will be condemned.

He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.

This is why water baptism doesn't save anyone from a guilty conscience and the Spirit baptism does, because those who have believed and received baptism of the Spirit (and are in Christ) are free from guilt.

So when Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, that fits right along with how he said the disciples would be baptized in the Spirit not many days hence. Being baptized in the Spirit is the grace they access by faith alone not by any work.

We do not receive grace by water baptism but faith alone, and as far as I know, the consistent teaching in the scripture is that the Spirit is what washes away sin.

[eaglesway]

My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.

He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....

It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.

He doesn't say that baptism is a symbol, brother. He says that Noah's account corresponds as a TYPE or a FIGURE of the baptism that saves us, which is through the resurrection of the Jesus Christ.

Noah's account is a symbol of the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spriit is the resurrected life of Jesus. Like Hebrews, the earthly things are figures of the true. Jesus is the true. He is the fulfillment of the pattern.

The scripture is clear on this that those who are in Christ are free from condemnation. Nobody who has not had a water baptism should have a guilty conscious. The Spirit has freed them from sin.

Water baptism does not provide a measure of Grace. Grace comes by faith alone.

I really wonder if you are reading my posts before you answer.

I directly said, baptism is not the sympol, the flood is the symbol. It is a picture we can look at to see how baptism heals- and ANY HEALING, ANY SALVATIO, ANY RESTORATION IS BY THE RECEIVING OF GRACE.

Faith obeys, and receives grace as the result. That is why the early Chrstians were all baptized. It is also why they confessed their faults one t another.

This is why I said before, you are still looking at salvation as an event. Grace is transmitted through many ways- and yes, they are all spring from faith.

Grace doesnt just mean "getting saved". They received more grace as they obeyed what they heard,

Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

Romans 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

Romans 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;

We are born by grace through faith, then We stand in grace. It is not an event, it is a way of life, a process, a state of being, a way of giving and receiving. I wounder if you are reading my whole posts, because you seem t be coming back to intial salvation, which I have continually stated, is by believing(turning to God in faith). But grace doesnt stop their, it grows by the obedience of faith, which is how Paul describes his apostleship.The gifts we have received impart grace, by the obedience of faith.

[Seth]

Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"

I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.

[eaglesway]

Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.

He that believes not will be condemned.

He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.

This is why water baptism doesn't save anyone from a guilty conscience and the Spirit baptism does, because those who have believed and received baptism of the Spirit (and are in Christ) are free from guilt.

So when Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, that fits right along with how he said the disciples would be baptized in the Spirit not many days hence. Being baptized in the Spirit is the grace they access by faith alone not by any work.

We do not receive grace by water baptism but faith alone, and as far as I know, the consistent teaching in the scripture is that the Spirit is what washes away sin.

The scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.

It is blood, water and Spirit from the very beginning, and continued straight through to the end.

So Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?

If John's baptism was from heaven,  where was the apostles baptism from?

[Seth]

This is why I said before, you are still looking at salvation as an event. Grace is transmitted through many ways- and yes, they are all spring from faith.

No I am not looking at salvation as an event. I look at salvation as HEALING, and I believe the Spirit baptism that heals us CONTINUALLY.

[eaglesway]

Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"

I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.

Ahhhh, I get it, sorry. Well, I just cant understand, looking at acts and the gospels how anyone gets anything other than baptism in water out of Peter's words, so I will leave off the discussion with you at this point, because we are not reading the same thoughts out of the scriptures to compare and evaluate and be accountable too- so any further words would be fruitless. No offense. We will have to agree to disagree.

The apostles were just being religious I guess  :dontknow:

[Seth]

The scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.

And I see those as having oneness in the Spirit not physical water. It says that the Spirit water and blood are in agreement, not that physical water SAVES us.

So Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?

I answered that twice already.

If John's baptism was from heaven,  where was the apostles baptism from?

If you are talking about Luke 20, it actually doesn't give an answer, but contextually they were asking about where the authority came from for John to baptize with water. Of course, that came from God.

[Seth]

Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"

I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.

Ahhhh, I get it, sorry. Well, I just cant understand, looking at acts and the gospels how anyone gets anything other than baptism in water out of Peter's words, so I will leave off the discussion with you at this point, because we are not reading the same thoughts out of the scriptures to compare and evaluate and be accountable too- so any further words would be fruitless. No offense. We will have to agree to disagree.

The apostles were just being religious I guess  :dontknow:

I didn't say the Apostles were being religious John. C'mon.

[eaglesway]

The scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.

And I see those as having oneness in the Spirit not physical water. It says that the Spirit water and blood are in agreement, not that physical water SAVES us.

So Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?

I answered that twice already.

If John's baptism was from heaven,  where was the apostles baptism from?

If you are talking about Luke 20, it actually doesn't give an answer, but contextually they were asking about where the authority came from for John to baptize with water. Of course, that came from God.

The answer was clearly implicated by Jesus - but lets say not.

If the authority for John's baptism came from God, where dd the authority for the apostles baptism come from?

[eaglesway]

You have not provided any reasonable hypothesis as to why the apostles baptized that I have read.

[Seth]

Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. You have not given me any reasonable reason to think that Peter taught water baptism saves. That's just me I guess.

[eaglesway]

I agree :o)

[Patinak]

What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

[jabcat]

Oh precious is the flow
that washes white as snow
No other fount I know
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

Amen.