I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out. I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why. As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts. We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:
Repent, for the Kingdom of heaven is [at hand] , in power , I am giving you my thoughts about it
Jesus Christ is the Voice of many waters that are always calling
You can in your own carnality miss out , if you like Peter was given the gift of grace to say Jesus Christ IS the Son of God ....
but later denied Jesus Christ 3 times before men , Jesus knew He would but loved Peter anyways ,,,, and Peter was cursing at himself for being such a failure
God gave and Peter took away , But God continued to deal with Peter .....God is long suffering that none should perish , HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS and when the right time is to correct us and the right time to comfort us though His own Spirit of truth
Peter after going though all this tribulation and correction and trials of faith as by fire to purge him , became a wonderful witness to the glory of God and wrote of many things about Jesus and His revealing in the BOOK OF LIFE We call the bible today ...
So the only confusion is within us,, NOT HIS WORD
God bless you Caffus
I personally don't think everything everybody says in scripture applies to everybody even though that seems to be the popular interpretation. I think John the baptist was performing a Jewish ritual for Jewish people. I know the church borrowed it as it has a lot of other stuff that I think doesn't necessarily apply to those of us of the nations. I was told I was baptized when I was an infant as is common in the Roman Catholic Church. I left the church when I was young because I knew something wasn't right. Years later I tried the Protestant Church for awhile, and I decided to get baptized with full immersion because I thought I should according to the doctrine I was believing at the time. Now I don't follow church doctrine and don't think any rituals are necessary, and I think believers are baptized in spirit. I also don't think all the stuff that happened or was said with the Jews while Jesus was with them before he was crucified is about those of us of the nations. I think we're saved in grace, through faith and justified in Christ which is more than just forgiven or pardoned.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html
Yes THis was done as well
But honestly until the WORD OF GOD applies to and speaks to you , you are only interpreting a history book :sigh:
1COR 10
Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
Quote from: Caffus on June 06, 2015, 02:31:01 AM
I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out. I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why. As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts. We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:
Going along with what Rose said. Consider this:
Romans 14
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
So to me it makes a lot of sense why John yelled repent. Without repenting, how will you have peace, or joy, or righteousness?
Jesus was baptized...I think its symbolic for dieing to the flesh and being born again or resurrected in the Spirit. Jesus was perfect, He didn't have a carnal nature, yet it pleased our Father that He was baptized, I suppose because He was being obedient to be an example to us of what is right for us to do. Jesus also taught us to take communion as a reminder of His life that was given for us. And a symbol of Him becomming a part of us as His Holy Spirit lives within us. :dsunny:
We can't be saved from our sin until we are made willing and able to repent of it and surrender to the will of God. However, this is not done of ourselves we are the work of His hands. Which is what I believe is Biblical. I hear a lot of non UR people talk about repentance, but it seems to me they believe this is by our efforts and not the work of God.
Glory to God in the highest in the earth as it is in heaven
brother
13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."
15When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, "Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us."
The heavens praise God continually for they know and are fully aware of Gods loving goodness ...
We are in the earth and just by the faith , that He granted , making known the things that are hidden from mans eyes
When revealed they do as they are instructed , just as these did for an example of works of faith being obedient to the call ..
Baptism is obededience of faith. If it is done as a work it yields nothing. If it is done because of faith in the word received by grace through faith, it yields great salvation.....
But I cannot say this enough I guess :o)
It has nothing to do with salvation form hell and never did. That is a deception. It provides benefit through "faith in the operation of God" (Paul to the Colossians2:12)
The propensity for looking at every command as salvation by works, and every salvation as salvation from judgment is a deception rooted in ET theology and legalism.
Salvation is about being made whole, healed, delivered from this world system into the kingdom of God. If Jesus submitted to John's baptism to "fulfill all righteousness", at the very least- believers ought to do the same, but agin i will express this opinion... a thorough study of all the scripture on baptism shows that the apostles taught and ministered it- even tho, as Paul said, someone else may have done the actual baptizing(usually their disciples).
How anyone can think that because Paul said the he was glad he didnt baptize anyone means he thought it unimportant puzzles me, because he taught it in Romans and Colossians, and made a point of even rebaptizing John's disciple into the new covenat in Acts 19.
He was saying, (Paraphrase) "I am glad I did not baptize any of you since you are all so bent on glamorizing your leaders and I wouldnt want anyone to glory in my name- you were baptized into Jesus Christ"
IMO this is his only possible meaning, in light of his actions and teaching.
Jesus was Jewish. I think he followed the Hebrew law and customs of the Jewish people, but I don't think we of the nations are subject to the Hebrew law or are required to participate in any customs or rituals whether Jewish or otherwise. I think we just need to believe Jesus Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and roused from the dead through the glory of the Father.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)
As I said, I was told that I was baptized as an infant, and years later I got baptized again by full immersion in a lake in the mountains. But I didn't think it had anything to do with salvation, just submitting to a ritual that I thought was necessary at the time. I don't anymore though. I think we were chosen and guaranteed our salvation from the coming indignation before the disruption of the world, and our salvation from sin and death is guaranteed by the word of God as is all mankind. I think we believe because we're saved, not saved because we believe. I think we believers of the nations are baptized in spirit, which is not the same thing that the Pentecostal folks push. I think the ritual of water baptism is related to the kingdom of the heavens which will be the earthly kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ in Jerusalem in the coming eon. I think any rituals are unnecessary and not required to be in the ecclesia, the body of Christ. I think we just need to be believers.
"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)
The same man who wrote those verses spoke these words and practised them.
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
The reason we have the book of Acts is so we can see the practice of the apostles as well as read their words for the purpose of context.
Paul acted as he believed, and he taught what he practiced. Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice kind of denies that there even is any context.
I think Acts was a transition period, and Paul's evangel changed as time went by and he received new revelation. You could also accuse somebody of "Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice" even concerning God or Jesus. God operated differently at different times for different reasons, and before Jesus was crucified, he told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations. Then later he sent Paul to the nations. I don't think just because some things were practiced by the Jews in the time of Christ or some things took place in the Pentecostal era means we should assume they are still in operation today. In fact I think all the gifts of the spirit manifested then have been abrogated except faith, expectation, and love, and a time will come when there will be no more need for faith or expectation and only love will remain. If you want to practice water baptism, go for it. If you want to practice circumcision, go for it. I just choose to believe those aren't necessary. I don't think my interpretation of scripture is any less valid than yours. We just see things differently. I think there were things done in history at certain times by certain people for certain reasons that were right for that particular time and place, but that doesn't mean that's what's up now. There was a time that the Hebrew law was the way to serve God, but I don't think it's necessary or the best way to do so now even though there are many people who seem to think observing at least some of it is a good idea. I just don't think any ritual is necessary to worship God now. I just think we're supposed to love our brothers and sisters.
Amen , :thumbsup: thanks Bro John !!
merciful acts of kindness ACTS is full of them works !!!
Matthew 12
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."
Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.
Doing acts...
"Then Jesus said to him, 'Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.' At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, 'It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.' " [John 5:8-10]
And also not doing acts...
"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' " [Matthew 15:1]
Quote from: Tom on June 06, 2015, 11:05:45 PM
I think Acts was a transition period, and Paul's evangel changed as time went by and he received new revelation. You could also accuse somebody of "Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice" even concerning God or Jesus. God operated differently at different times for different reasons, and before Jesus was crucified, he told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations. Then later he sent Paul to the nations. I don't think just because some things were practiced by the Jews in the time of Christ or some things took place in the Pentecostal era means we should assume they are still in operation today. In fact I think all the gifts of the spirit manifested then have been abrogated except faith, expectation, and love, and a time will come when there will be no more need for faith or expectation and only love will remain. If you want to practice water baptism, go for it. If you want to practice circumcision, go for it. I just choose to believe those aren't necessary. I don't think my interpretation of scripture is any less valid than yours. We just see things differently. I think there were things done in history at certain times by certain people for certain reasons that were right for that particular time and place, but that doesn't mean that's what's up now. There was a time that the Hebrew law was the way to serve God, but I don't think it's necessary or the best way to do so now even though there are many people who seem to think observing at least some of it is a good idea. I just don't think any ritual is necessary to worship God now. I just think we're supposed to love our brothers and sisters.
What I was saying about snippets is this. If you use excerpts of Paul's words to refute Pauls practice to are stepping out of the exegetical parameter and the common sense interelationship of his own teaching and action. At what point does this so-called evolution of Paul's evangel arrive at this conclusion? He wrote Colossians in prison, in the latter stages of his life and ministry, at that point he is still teaching the same thing on baptism he was teaching in Romans..
Jesus was speaking to Jews. Paul was in his primitive stage. God allowed Peter to continue hebrew traditions and Jewish laws. And whose word do we have for all that? That we should set aside the words of Jesus and the apsotles Paul and Peter?
The gift of baptism is the problem with baptism. It is just to simple to believe, to primitive to fit, to embarassing to submit. But as far as I can see, this is a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ from His mouth and from His apostles as well.
I think water baptism was a shadow of spirit baptism.
"I, indeed, baptize you in water, yet He shall be baptizing you in holy spirit." (Mark 1:8)
I think our "one baptism" is in spirit.
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)
We're baptized into the body of Christ.
"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)
I think John's water baptism was a baptism of repentance for the pardon of sins which is the requirement for entry into the kingdom of the heavens, the earthly kingdom in Israel, ruled by their Messiah in the next eon.
I think we of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are more than pardoned because we're justified gratuitously in God's grace through the deliverance in Christ Jesus and sealed with the holy spirit of promise. (Romans 3:24; Ephesians 1:13)
A pardon can be revoked. (Matthew 18:23-35)
There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus because where sin increases, grace superexceeds. (Romans 8:1; 5:20)
[attachment deleted by admin]
I think, I think, I think....
The quotes again are of Paul, who taught and practised water baptism.
I agree that baptism has nothing to do with justification, but baptism in water is still in effect and provides, if nothing else the benefit of obedience, one to which Jesus and all the apostles submitted to and practiced.
But its efficacy is a gift, as I see it.
I guess again, we will just have to agree to disagree :o)
Heb 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
:dontknow: my ears are open
"I think, I think, I think" should not offend you, brother. It's simply my humble way of showing I don't claim any authority. I think, I believe, my opinion, my perspective, my interpretation seems to be the way to acknowledge that it is simply my viewpoint because we all have a different one. We simply differ on baptism in that I think water baptism was a shadow of baptism in the spirit which is what brings us into the body of Christ. I agree that we should agree to disagree rather than cause any hard feelings about doctrinal interpretation. We agree that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, was entombed, and roused from the dead by the power of God, and through his blood on the cross reconciles all on the earth and in the heavens to God. I say that's worth celebrating rather than getting tense about other matters that would probably continue to be debated indefinitely. So peace, bro. Some day we'll all see everything more clearly, and I don't think there's going to be any "I told you so" going on because we're all going to be so amazed by the unconditional love and total peace of experiencing God all in all.
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Sis, I don't think we should get baptized into any denomination because, if we believe, we're already baptized in the body of Christ.
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Sheila,
I dont want to make a law out of baptism :o)
I have only said it is still in effect and provides a benefit that is more than pure ritual, which is both my experience and my opinion,
But you bring up a good point. Most of us are not new believers. I was baptized shortly after I was saved in the Jesus people movement, in 1975.
These days, having been out of the "church" for quite some time I would baptize a new believer myself. It is God who does the work, and gracious as He is, the operation is done regardless of the spiritual education of the believer, because it is for the newly saved as it was originally delivered.
I have seen the power of God come on new believers coming up out of the waters of baptism so many times- I personally will never doubt its effectiveness.
I believe in the early church, the ministration was repentence, baptism in water, and baptism in the Holy Spirit as a three-fold application of the gospel to establish new believers in overcoming power right off the bat. Obviously, as we can tell from the writings, the struggles were still there and false doctrines were working in the churches from the very beginning. But IMO, a good start with all the appointed spiritual "equipment" certainly helps.
We are not baptized into an organization, we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
TY John.... :friendstu:
To each their own in my opinion! :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sheila on June 07, 2015, 03:17:45 AM
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
:dontknow: my ears are open
:) Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs.
When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen." Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason, I didn't care. I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day! :) I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths. Ain't religion something?!
And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him. So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.
:laugh: God help us all... I just made up my mind to follow the scriptures and worship Him all by myself if I had to.
and I had to for awhile...and I would not trade that expierence for nothing. The most wonderful time
of my life. :HeartThrob:
A worthy and blessed decision.
God is heping us all. and if we are helping each other and others- we are blessed :o)
Quote from: lomarah on June 07, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
To each their own in my opinion! :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho. :HeartThrob:
Hi lomarah,
We have a service for Baptism for anyone who wants it, it is a lovely service and it is done in the privacy of our church/temple/chapel/sanctuary/meeting place. I personally have never undergone this service although some others have asked me to help them take it.
I personally find that the Holy Communion service brings me into as much contact with Jesus Christ as I can take - it takes me quite a while to become re-orientated until the next one comes around. I find that Christ is already in me and I follow Him, and this has been so for a while and I do not feel any less for not having the Baptism service.
Peace in this life and forever more.
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 07, 2015, 05:24:13 AM
Quote from: sheila on June 07, 2015, 03:17:45 AM
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
:dontknow: my ears are open
:) Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs.
When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen." Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason, I didn't care. I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day! :) I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths. Ain't religion something?!
And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him. So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)
So, if there's one baptism now, which baptism is it, water or spirit?
"There is the vexed question of baptism. This was a Jewish rite and is usually translated "washing" in the "Old Testament." A Jew who broke the law had to bring a sacrifice to God and be baptized before approaching God. This for every time he sinned. The Baptist made it a rite significant of acceptance of the Messiah. No person can enter the kingdom without immersion in water. But now, baptism in holy spirit by our Lord alone can make us members of the body of Christ, and water baptism is no longer obligatory or of any use. To perform this command of the law now, is to fall from grace." (p234-Give the Jew his Due-Our Lord's Earthly Ministry-V13P2-Unsearchable Riches)
"In the later epistles there is but one baptism (Eph.4:5; Col.2:12); in the earlier there were not less than two, the real and interdispensational baptism into Christ's death (Rom.6:3) and a water baptism as connected with the witness of the kingdom (1 Cor.1:14-17; Acts 19:3-6). Besides these there was the baptism with holy spirit of the early Acts period, which came at least upon Cornelius' household and upon the Jewish believers at Pentecost (Acts 11:16), and the baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24) of the Gospels and Acts period, which was practiced by John and by our Lord's twelve apostles and other disciples (John 4:1,2). This was equivalent to the baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 22:16)." (p233-But One Baptism Now-Are The Bride And The Body Identical?-V17P2-Unsearchable Riches)
See the attachments. The third attachment explains why Paul participated in various Jewish rituals when he associated with the twelve.
http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
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Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
From what I can read there is ONE baptism and we also have the " unity of the Spirit" unity does not have division. And we have the words of John
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
John's baptism was WATER. As far as I understand the WORD is our water. It is my opinion that there was a maturing in those men of God and perhaps that is why there was less and less speaking of water baptism in understanding and more of what Jesus said Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
In my opinion should one have the desire to be water baptized, do it. My opinion, water baptizing is a doctrine held over to produce the same mental thinking as the hell doctrine which stirs only guilt. "the flesh profiteth nothing" it doesn't say profiteth a little.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Tom I agree with your offerings. :dsunny:
Hi Tom.....the third one down under Individual Issues is about Herman Rocke....I just downloaded it to my phone...is that the one you mean or did I misunderstand?
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 07, 2015, 06:29:31 PM
Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
From what I can read there is ONE baptism and we also have the " unity of the Spirit" unity does not have division. And we have the words of John
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
John's baptism was WATER. As far as I understand the WORD is our water. It is my opinion that there was a maturing in those men of God and perhaps that is why there was less and less speaking of water baptism in understanding and more of what Jesus said Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
In my opinion should one have the desire to be water baptized, do it. My opinion, water baptizing is a doctrine held over to produce the same mental thinking as the hell doctrine which stirs only guilt. "the flesh profiteth nothing" it doesn't say profiteth a little.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Tom I agree with your offerings. :dsunny:
Very selective offerings. It seems to me that all the scriputes on the topic must be considered.
Mind you, I am not teaching baptismal salvation. All I have said is that baptism in water remains in effect under the new covenant, and provides a benefit that is more than just ritual. Acts 19 makes it clear to me that Paul thought, taught and practised this.
I think there is more than enough scripture to support that view, so I have offered it, and I stand behind it- but I am not trying to make baptism a law for anyone, or teach baptismal justification, or any such thing.
As I have said repeatedly, Jesus submitted to it to fulfill all righteousness, the apostles taught it, let every person be convinced in their own heart how they ought to respond to the scriptures on the matter- but at least consider all the scriptures.
I know this sounds odd to some and agree with Tom and Micah and others as well , this thread has covered a lot of the ignorance /darkness and bring much Light on the subject
We all agree in some way or the other with everything that has been said , to come to our own conclusions
and the meaning may not resonate with us all at the same time , but the seed is planted in the willing and well tilled soil of our hearts the seed in Christ and its of faith and it also is the WORD OF GOD made flesh living in us though the Spirit of Life and casting out and putting him to death that old spirit in a man that has had the strong hold for way to long ..
But it is in my belief , that becoming dead to sin is what the WORLD IS SIN AND ERROR and all about the cross and putting that old man of sin to death in and on your cross and put his mouth to silence that he cannot boast in every last one of us and makes ROOM FOR JESUS TO rule and reign in our hearts and the LORD OUR GOD
Till that man of sin is no more and the Light of His dwelling within us has taken every deep and dark cranny that old monster hides in and exposes this old man of sin from the ages !
world sin error
Romans 6 Dead to Sin, Alive to God
...3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,...
1john 4 Testing the Spirits
...5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
we rise to the higher place , as seated with Christ in heavenly places , knowing God and the Light that shines LIKE THE NOON DAY SUN
till the darkness fades and and our hearts are no longer hiding this sinful self
I know its a process , I still wonder even after the Lords Spirit teaches me and deals ever so patient with me always , what in the world !!!
where was that ugly angry thing hiding within ? I HATE IT more !!! , than those who are offended by it or harmed in any way , its brought on by anger over offense . learning to forgive not only those who tresspassed against me but forgive myself , because , there is a lot of beating up and self loathing going on over it ...
I am humbled by this all the time knowing I can only turn to Jesus in my hour of need , to put to death that lying cheating blasphemer forever !!
better to obey , but that man of sin will never ever obey the Law of God because its spiritual and Love is what makes it work in us all
but all the sacrificing and sorry attitude does not change the fact that it rose up in there to cause great chaos and war , in a peaceful place ...
sin breeds more sin , if one could live alone and all by yourself , you might be safe if never ever tempted , but woe to the temptation it is a set up to utterly fail
pride comes before a fall , pride made me upset with an old foe and got the best of me
the most open and honest post to date I ever made or confessed I am dipped and dipped in death over and over again , I believe this is why the bible says do NOT get weary , because it is a wearying process , in our weakness [sinful flesh] the SPIRIT CHRIST IN YOU ] has the victory already won and the grace of God is a reality , not just some afterthought , you KNOW your saved by grace of God and no other way is it done ...
keeping us humble and needy , need Jesus always ... I cannot be fake and pretend everything is perfect and have it all , far cry from it , I am a sinner saved by grace to my dying day
FULLY healed and made whole , the battles are real but the war is not over till that last enemy being death is fully conquered in Christ ........
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 07, 2015, 06:58:40 PM
Hi Tom.....the third one down under Individual Issues is about Herman Rocke....I just downloaded it to my phone...is that the one you mean or did I misunderstand?
Sue, I think you were looking for the one attached to this message.
[attachment deleted by admin]
I never mean to cause division or stress among the brothers and sisters. I just share my perspective from what I've learned in my life. I don't claim to be an authority. I think the only authority we have is an accurate translation of the word of God.
I get baptized every morning, but I don't consider it to have any spiritual significance.
Water baptism used by the Jews was symbolic of spiritual cleansing, but why should we of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, need anything symbolic done in the flesh now because it is Christ himself who baptizes us in spirit?
"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)
In Galatians Paul says, when you revert to the law, you fall out of grace.
"Exempted from Christ were you who are being justified in law. You fall out of grace. For we, in spirit, are awaiting the expectation of righteousness by faith." (Galatians 5:4,5)
Even if the ritual of water baptism is simply intended to be a personal one time demonstration of dying with Christ, it's not necessary because we should be showing that in our life everyday anyway by everything we say and do if we're true believers. I think it's just a case of the church mixing the two evangels into a distorted evangel that Paul actually cursed in Galatians.
"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)
"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)
We of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are not subject to the Jewish law of water baptism and repentance for entry into the kingdom of the heavens on earth in Israel in the next eon ruled by their Jewish Messiah because we're saved in grace, through faith by God through the blood of Christ on the cross for an eonian celestial destiny.
The church has presumed to take the place of Israel and adopted its customs and laws which don't apply to those of us of the nations. The Jews at the Jerusalem conference called to discuss the problem of Paul converting the nations without requiring them to follow the Jewish law wanted to cling to their tradition, but we're not subject to the Jewish law and never have been. The Jewish ritual of water baptism is only practiced by Christians today because Rome hijacked Christianity and distorted Paul's evangel for the nations. The Roman Catholic Church even claims that Peter was its first pope because it prefers Peter's evangel intended for the Jewish people even though James, who wasn't one of the twelve apostles, took over leadership of the Jerusalem ecclesia simply because he was the brother of Jesus.
All scripture is for us, but it's not all about us. Confusion comes from mixing people, times, and places that have different operations of God. The Christian church using the Jewish ritual of water baptism is a prime example.
There is no stress for me Tom, and really, no division, altho I disagree heartily with your position- you are a brother in Christ. When iron sharpens iron, there are sparks- but thats no big deal if we conduct ourselves in a mature way.
Jesus did not disseminate Jewish traditions as if He were bound by His physical, national or religious heritage. He was baptized, by His own words, "To fulfill all righteousness". He instituted baptism, not Peter or Paul. They received it from Him, and it had nothing to do with traditions of the Jews, it was the gospel Peter and Paul received by revelation directly from Jesus Christ, the whole counsel of God- as Paul himself described it to the elders from Ephesus when he departed for Rome.
So, it ought not be disregarded.
I liked what you shared and agree with some of it
Yet I cannot help but say this part here I cannot agree with totally
QuoteAll scripture is for us, but it's not all about us. Confusion comes from mixing people, times, and places that have different operations of God. The Christian church using the Jewish ritual of water baptism is a prime example.
This life you are granted by GOD is the only one you have , not a one of us can determine how it will end ....and especially when we do meet Jesus face to face and give an account to what you gathered along the way and kept in your heart as treasure
I do believe it is a personal and in your face JESUS experience if you can build a good foundation in Christ only
for me that is the only way , you can " get" past all the muck and sludge of being just a mortal human being and we are torn down and built up on a regular basis , GOD DOES NOT CHANGE , He is the only one who can change us , but will not if we are not willing to change our minds and hearts
you see what I mean ? I am not accountable for you any more than you are for me
we stand before the judgment seat of Christ and that alone is going to be surreal , you cannot go back and change a thing , this time now is for us to "come clean " so to speak ..
guilty before God Obviously, the law applies to those
to whom it was given, for
its purpose is to keep people from having excuses,
and to show that the entire world is guilty before God. For me its better to have an intimate relationship with Him now and speak to Him and Him to you in secret
than all the talking about God and HIM that is ever done .. but this is just me and my perspective , we only share because it may help someone along the way , in whatever way God will allow it to .by His own spirit witness of truth , love and life in it..
I do not see any divisions , just layers of TRUTH in everyone discussing the subject of baptism and its meaning to them personally
Quote from: eaglesway on June 07, 2015, 08:28:02 PM
There is no stress for me Tom, and really, no division, altho I disagree heartily with your position- you are a brother in Christ. When iron sharpens iron, there are sparks- but thats no big deal if we conduct ourselves in a mature way.
Jesus did not disseminate Jewish traditions as if He were bound by His physical, national or religious heritage. He was baptized, by His own words, "To fulfill all righteousness". He instituted baptism, not Peter or Paul. They received it from Him, and it had nothing to do with traditions of the Jews, it was the gospel Peter and Paul received by revelation directly from Jesus Christ, the whole counsel of God- as Paul himself described it to the elders from Ephesus when he departed for Rome.
So, it ought not be disregarded.
I agree that the evangel Jesus and then Peter preached to the Jewish people, which maintained all the Jewish tradition including the ritual of water baptism, shouldn't be "disregarded." I just don't think the Jewish tradition is for those of us of the nations today. Obviously I'm in the minority about that here, but I'm just saying what I believe according to what I've read. Everybody can judge for themselves what they think is the best way to interpret scripture. I don't think anything in scripture should be "disregarded." I just think that everything doesn't apply to everybody, and, when that's done, it causes confusion.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 07, 2015, 08:28:02 PM
There is no stress for me Tom, and really, no division, altho I disagree heartily with your position- you are a brother in Christ. When iron sharpens iron, there are sparks- but thats no big deal if we conduct ourselves in a mature way.
Jesus did not disseminate Jewish traditions as if He were bound by His physical, national or religious heritage. He was baptized, by His own words, "To fulfill all righteousness". He instituted baptism, not Peter or Paul. They received it from Him, and it had nothing to do with traditions of the Jews, it was the gospel Peter and Paul received by revelation directly from Jesus Christ, the whole counsel of God- as Paul himself described it to the elders from Ephesus when he departed for Rome.
So, it ought not be disregarded.
GOLLY JOHN ! said it better than i could ever even try to ..
It is by Spiritual revelation and experience
you don't know nothing till you get though it and that is with all of us
apparently some have not experienced this yet or know how to yet
But all the apostles learned and than experienced it , Even Jesus come in mortal flesh to KNOW what we are going though personal revelation and is still in every last one of us I BELIEVE
I completely disagree that the evangel that Jesus and Peter preached was a special dispensational gospel to the Jews. It was just the gospel...."glad tidings to all people". The gospel of the kingdom of God.
Even if it was though, why would God suddenly have Jesus and Peter continue Jewish traditions when He had Jesus so effectively rebuke those very traditions?
That doesnt make sense to me, personally.
One Lord, one baptism, one faith, Two Gospels, or Three maybe?
Seems mighty convenient to me.
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2015, 08:48:49 PM
It is by Spiritual revelation and experience
you don't know nothing till you get though it and that is with all of us
apparently some have not experienced this yet or know how to yet
But all the apostles learned and than experienced it , Even Jesus come in mortal flesh to KNOW what we are going though personal revelation and is still in every last one of us I BELIEVE
Exactly Rosered, it is by spiritual revelation and experience. The word made flesh, become bread of life as we eat, transformed into the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and His blood in our veins. So wonderful He is.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 07, 2015, 08:57:38 PM
Quote from: rosered on June 07, 2015, 08:48:49 PM
It is by Spiritual revelation and experience
you don't know nothing till you get though it and that is with all of us
apparently some have not experienced this yet or know how to yet
But all the apostles learned and than experienced it , Even Jesus come in mortal flesh to KNOW what we are going though personal revelation and is still in every last one of us I BELIEVE
Exactly Rosered, it is by spiritual revelation and experience. The word made flesh, become bread of life as we eat, transformed into the spirit of life in Christ Jesus and His blood in our veins. So wonderful He is.
:HeartThrob: Thanks for the confirmation John , I still struggle in them experiences :sigh:
Tom....that link won't open on my phone so just an fyi, I will not be able to study it till I have access to a computer much later on tonight.
In the meantime..."being baptized into His death" is on my mind and how that is possibly even connected to the lake of fire in an age to come pertaining to the reconciliation of all.
Mark 10:29 and Luke 12:50 come to mind. This topic should probably be discussed in another thread though!
:)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 07, 2015, 08:50:47 PM
I completely disagree that the evangel that Jesus and Peter preached was a special dispensational gospel to the Jews. It was just the gospel...."glad tidings to all people". The gospel of the kingdom of God.
Even if it was though, why would God suddenly have Jesus and Peter continue Jewish traditions when He had Jesus so effectively rebuke those very traditions?
That doesnt make sense to me, personally.
One Lord, one baptism, one faith, Two Gospels, or Three maybe?
Seems mighty convenient to me.
I know we've been through all this before, but I agree the evangel is that Jesus Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and roused from among the dead through the glory of the Father. The Jews seemed to have maintained their tradition though, as was evidenced at the Jerusalem counsel, and Jesus himself said he was only sent to the Jews and told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations.
"These twelve Jesus commissions, charging them, saying, "Into a road of the nations you may not pass forth, and into a city of the Samaritans you may not be entering. Yet be going rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Now going, herald, saying that 'Near is the kingdom of the heavens!'" (Matthew 10:5-7)
"I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
And Peter preached only to Jews who gathered in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost about the promised coming kingdom of the heavens on earth in Israel which is not what Paul preached to the nations.
""Let all the house of Israel know certainly, then, that God makes Him Lord as well as Christ--this Jesus Whom you crucify!" Now, hearing this, their heart was pricked with compunction. Besides, they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "What should we be doing, men, brethren?" Now Peter is averring to them, "Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the pardon of your sins, and you shall be obtaining the gratuity of the holy spirit. For to you is the promise and to your children, and to all those afar, whosoever the Lord our God should be calling to Him." (Acts 2:36-39)
I attached a PDF file earlier explaining Paul's association with the twelve in Acts, but he didn't preach the earthly kingdom of the heavens in Israel to the nations because we have an eonian celestial destiny. Like I said before, we've gone through this debate before, but I still see something different going on with the Jewish people and the nations even though it's all about Christ's death, entombment, and resurrection.
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 07, 2015, 09:33:17 PM
Tom....that link won't open on my phone so just an fyi, I will not be able to study it till I have access to a computer much later on tonight.
In the meantime..."being baptized into His death" is on my mind and how that is possibly even connected to the lake of fire in an age to come pertaining to the reconciliation of all.
Mark 10:29 and Luke 12:50 come to mind. This topic should probably be discussed in another thread though!
:)
I just emailed you the PDF file I think you're looking for because I think you've opened them on your phone before through your email account. The second death-the lake of fire is for unbelievers who will be condemned at the great white throne. Our baptism into the body of Christ symbolizes our death with his.
Quote from: Tom on June 07, 2015, 10:32:18 PM
The second death-the lake of fire is for unbelievers who will be condemned at the great white throne. Our baptism into the body of Christ symbolizes our death with his.
I agree with the above statement.
However, I also believe that in addition to symbolizing that death(the one baptism), baptism in water is also efficacious in a three fold benefit.... a signet ring testifying to the universe that we are in Him(a valuable gift, a marriage ring, a circumscision made without hands), an operation of God upon the conscience(a burial of the body of the sins of the flesh- Paul; a declaration, the answer of a clear conscience- Peter), A separation from the world as the Red Sea separated Israel from Egypt, Noah from the world being destroyed by water(Peter).
These three agree in one, the blood(repentence and faith), the water(washing of regeneration, washing of water with the word, burial of the horse and rider), Spirit(pillar of cloud and flame, the promise of the Spirit)- as per Acts 2:38
This is the reason that Jesus commanded baptism in water and the apostles taught and practiced it- not for justification, but also not just pure ritual, but as the obedience of faith- a first step in setting the mind of man aside and walking in the obedience of faith. In my opnion belivers often suffer for the lack of it, being a part of the full deliverance and healing package, along with the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I hear what you're saying, but I still don't think water baptism is for us, and I don't believe we, the body of Christ, are the bride of the lamb. I also think, in addition to our baptism symbolizing our death with Christ, it is a spiritual reality because we are baptized into the body of Christ, not by a man in water, but by Christ himself with holy spirit.
I keep meaning to ask you if you stayed in touch with the Jesus People because I tried to share universal reconciliation with them in Chicago, and they didn't seem to go for it. I also found out they were connected to some denomination then.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreTheBrideAndBodyIdentical0.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreWeTheBrideOfTheLamb.html
In the paraphrased words of someone in the public view, If you like your doctrine you can keep your doctrine. :dsunny: :2c:
I don't think the Jesus people exist any more except perhaps as a scattered remnat. Most of them ended up in the Calvary Chapel movement and the Vineyard movement and denominational churches.
Baptism into death is a spiritual reality for believers because Jesus died for them. A believer receives that at repentence(death) and faith towards God(resurrection).
Baptism is burial. Paul says this several times, and that is all I have said it is.
I dont think discussing theories on who the Bride is for this thread. If you would like to start a thread on that I will gladly participate.
We agree i think that ther is one body- if not much else LOL
Quote from: micah7:9 on June 08, 2015, 03:01:49 AM
In the paraphrased words of someone in the public view, If you like your doctrine you can keep your doctrine. :dsunny: :2c:
Well, we all have the tendency to identify our own beliefs as the "truth" and the things others believe that we don't as "their doctrine"
Thats why is we keep things in a collegial tone and refer to the scriptures for context, our discussions may bear some fruit.
I only mentioned the bride because you said "a marriage ring," but we've talked about the body and bride in other threads before.
Jesus didn't follow the old testament law...thats mainly why they crucified Him. He and His disciples didn't do the ceremonial hand washing before eating. They pick food to eat on the Sabbath. Jesus healed on the Sabbath ect...Jesus did what was right, He did our Father's will. The written law is for those without the Living Law guiding them.
Quote from: lastpost on June 07, 2015, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: lomarah on June 07, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
To each their own in my opinion! :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho. :HeartThrob:
Hi lomarah,
We have a service for Baptism for anyone who wants it, it is a lovely service and it is done in the privacy of our church/temple/chapel/sanctuary/meeting place. I personally have never undergone this service although some others have asked me to help them take it.
I personally find that the Holy Communion service brings me into as much contact with Jesus Christ as I can take - it takes me quite a while to become re-orientated until the next one comes around. I find that Christ is already in me and I follow Him, and this has been so for a while and I do not feel any less for not having the Baptism service.
Peace in this life and forever more.
That is awesome lastpost. From the sounds of it your gathering is quite a blessing. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tom on June 08, 2015, 03:19:12 AM
I only mentioned the bride because you said "a marriage ring," but we've talked about the body and bride in other threads before.
I understand, but at least in the individual sense Paul says "I have betrothed you to Christ"
I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ....
Quote from: lomarah on June 08, 2015, 03:48:20 AM
Quote from: lastpost on June 07, 2015, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: lomarah on June 07, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
To each their own in my opinion! :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho. :HeartThrob:
Hi lomarah,
We have a service for Baptism for anyone who wants it, it is a lovely service and it is done in the privacy of our church/temple/chapel/sanctuary/meeting place. I personally have never undergone this service although some others have asked me to help them take it.
I personally find that the Holy Communion service brings me into as much contact with Jesus Christ as I can take - it takes me quite a while to become re-orientated until the next one comes around. I find that Christ is already in me and I follow Him, and this has been so for a while and I do not feel any less for not having the Baptism service.
Peace in this life and forever more.
That is awesome lastpost. From the sounds of it your gathering is quite a blessing. :HeartThrob:
Seeing that there appears to be no clear indication as to a "must" or "must not" (from what I gather from the scriptural arguments), I think your common sense testimony, if I can use that term, is probably the best guide in this issue for me!
Gathering a Blessing...it leaves me speechless to actually be transported back to that event and asked to take part in it, you understand.
I can't help but conclude....'of man born of woman[manchild/seed of woman that crushes serpent head] there is
none more righteous than John the Baptist. But he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
John preached repentance and confession..and baptism as a prelude to Him who would take all your sins away
and baptize with Holy spirit and fire.
It's all about the reconciling of the relationship......repentance..confessing and turning unto Him that can take away
all your sin.[Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord] the manchild being born is the 'born again' of God into
the spirit...the new creature being made in the image of God.....
..since Jesus come in flesh[the likeness of sinful] and was born of woman under the law[law for the lawless] in order
to fulfill all righteousness.........the only thing righteous the wicked/sinful can do is confess and turn away from
that coarse[repent]
he that is least in the kingdom of heaven..imo is related to the new spiritual regeneration and dominion that
man in the image of God inherits over the lower beastly kingdom[man without understanding is like the beast]
the mind of the beast/serpent more subtil than any beast of the field.Genesis 4;7 you must master it.
the sin in the flesh that is condemned in all men under the law..is a lower kingdom/creation/creature...and the
only 'right' thing it can do is confess and repent.
Alternative Baptism
As a young preacher, my small church had limited facilities, so we held baptisms in a creek. With alligators in the area, however, that was less than ideal.
Then a minister friend suggested I bring my next group of baptismal candidates to his church for a joint baptismal service. Naturally, I accepted.
The baptismal pool had a clear front so the congregation could see everything. When the baptisms were finished, curtains were drawn, and I was left alone in the pool for a moment. The building had no air conditioning, and it was quite hot. I thought how nice it would feel to take a little dip. I glided to one end, turned, and backstroked to the other end.
Hearing a riotous uproar in the church, I looked toward the congregation.
The curtain was down only to the top of the glass! An astonished and amused congregation had been watching my every move.
*Thanks to Pastor Tim for this joke!* From Crosswalk.com
:laugh: when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold. we wore shirts and
shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red! I looked like I was
covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal! everything turned red!
Mark 11;30 John's baptism-was it from heaven or from men? Tell me. They discussed it among themselves..and said
'If we say 'from heaven" then He will ask..'why didn't you believe him?" If we say 'from men" then there are the people
to fear,because everyone held that John really was a prophet"
Quote from: Tom on June 07, 2015, 05:44:30 PM
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 07, 2015, 05:24:13 AM
Quote from: sheila on June 07, 2015, 03:17:45 AM
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
:dontknow: my ears are open
:) Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs.
When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen." Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason, I didn't care. I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day! :) I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths. Ain't religion something?!
And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him. So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)
So, if there's one baptism now, which baptism is it, water or spirit?
"There is the vexed question of baptism. This was a Jewish rite and is usually translated "washing" in the "Old Testament." A Jew who broke the law had to bring a sacrifice to God and be baptized before approaching God. This for every time he sinned. The Baptist made it a rite significant of acceptance of the Messiah. No person can enter the kingdom without immersion in water. But now, baptism in holy spirit by our Lord alone can make us members of the body of Christ, and water baptism is no longer obligatory or of any use. To perform this command of the law now, is to fall from grace." (p234-Give the Jew his Due-Our Lord's Earthly Ministry-V13P2-Unsearchable Riches)
"In the later epistles there is but one baptism (Eph.4:5; Col.2:12); in the earlier there were not less than two, the real and interdispensational baptism into Christ's death (Rom.6:3) and a water baptism as connected with the witness of the kingdom (1 Cor.1:14-17; Acts 19:3-6). Besides these there was the baptism with holy spirit of the early Acts period, which came at least upon Cornelius' household and upon the Jewish believers at Pentecost (Acts 11:16), and the baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24) of the Gospels and Acts period, which was practiced by John and by our Lord's twelve apostles and other disciples (John 4:1,2). This was equivalent to the baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 22:16)." (p233-But One Baptism Now-Are The Bride And The Body Identical?-V17P2-Unsearchable Riches)
See the attachments. The third attachment explains why Paul participated in various Jewish rituals when he associated with the twelve.
http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
Okay Tom, I read it. Something is bothering me about the teaching primarily due to these verses which seem to go in the opposite direction entirely:
Matthew 20: 6 on....
16The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the hillside to which Jesus had directed them. 17When they saw him, they worshipped him, though some had doubts. 18Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."
This was after His death and resurrection and before His ascension...so new covenant time. He told them to go to all nations....and to water baptize those people...."to all nations." The disciples elsewhere were told that the starting point was to be Jerusalem...
Luke 24:46 on...
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
Jesus Himself commissioned them to do this.
That's my starting point on water baptism....has nothing to do with John's baptism or any Jewish OT ritual cleansing....law stuff. This was new...and the "nations" are specifically mentioned.
Psalms 85;10-13 Love and faithfulness meet togather; righteousness and peace kiss each other........
v 13 Righteousness goes before him and prepares the way for his steps.
mediation between parties at enmity with one another[reconciliation] one party confesses and repents of it's
actions that caused the breach..and turns away from them..and to the one of whom it is seeking reconciliation with.
the love and faithfulness of the one who did not cause the breach extends forgiveness..relationship healed
and a returning unto God.
how may a man cleanse his steps? Ps 119;9 Prvb 15;24 the path of life leads upward for the wise..to keep
him from going down to the grave.. I am returning unto my Father and yours.
Christ the Mediator
Paul was not associated with the 12 in Acts 3. He was completey on his own when he met the disciples of John. First thing he asks them is "Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed". When they answer, "We havent even heard of such a thing", Paul's first response is to ask, "What baptism did you receive?". They responded that they had received John's baptism.
Paul proceeds to explain baptism into Christ and proceeds to baptize them in Jesus' name.
He then lays hands on them and they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Standard Operating Procedure for the application of the New Covenant was and ought to still be(if we want to see the power of God manifest in evangelism -totally my opinion :o).
Repent and let everyone f you be baptized in the name of Jesus Chrit for the remission of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit- for the promise is to you and your children AND TO ALL WHO ARE AFAR OFF.
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 08, 2015, 06:40:43 PM
Quote from: Tom on June 07, 2015, 05:44:30 PM
Quote from: Psalm91:4 on June 07, 2015, 05:24:13 AM
Quote from: sheila on June 07, 2015, 03:17:45 AM
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
:dontknow: my ears are open
:) Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs.
When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen." Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason, I didn't care. I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day! :) I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths. Ain't religion something?!
And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him. So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.
"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)
So, if there's one baptism now, which baptism is it, water or spirit?
"There is the vexed question of baptism. This was a Jewish rite and is usually translated "washing" in the "Old Testament." A Jew who broke the law had to bring a sacrifice to God and be baptized before approaching God. This for every time he sinned. The Baptist made it a rite significant of acceptance of the Messiah. No person can enter the kingdom without immersion in water. But now, baptism in holy spirit by our Lord alone can make us members of the body of Christ, and water baptism is no longer obligatory or of any use. To perform this command of the law now, is to fall from grace." (p234-Give the Jew his Due-Our Lord's Earthly Ministry-V13P2-Unsearchable Riches)
"In the later epistles there is but one baptism (Eph.4:5; Col.2:12); in the earlier there were not less than two, the real and interdispensational baptism into Christ's death (Rom.6:3) and a water baptism as connected with the witness of the kingdom (1 Cor.1:14-17; Acts 19:3-6). Besides these there was the baptism with holy spirit of the early Acts period, which came at least upon Cornelius' household and upon the Jewish believers at Pentecost (Acts 11:16), and the baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24) of the Gospels and Acts period, which was practiced by John and by our Lord's twelve apostles and other disciples (John 4:1,2). This was equivalent to the baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 22:16)." (p233-But One Baptism Now-Are The Bride And The Body Identical?-V17P2-Unsearchable Riches)
See the attachments. The third attachment explains why Paul participated in various Jewish rituals when he associated with the twelve.
http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
Okay Tom, I read it. Something is bothering me about the teaching primarily due to these verses which seem to go in the opposite direction entirely:
Matthew 20: 6 on....
16The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the hillside to which Jesus had directed them. 17When they saw him, they worshipped him, though some had doubts. 18Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."
This was after His death and resurrection and before His ascension...so new covenant time. He told them to go to all nations....and to water baptize those people...."to all nations." The disciples elsewhere were told that the starting point was to be Jerusalem...
Luke 24:46 on...
46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
Jesus Himself commissioned them to do this.
That's my starting point on water baptism....has nothing to do with John's baptism or any Jewish OT ritual cleansing....law stuff. This was new...and the "nations" are specifically mentioned.
It's my understanding that the so called great commission points toward the coming kingdom of the heavens when Christ rules and when Israel will indeed be evangelizing the nations, which they aren't doing now and vehemently opposed when Paul did so after he was commissioned by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus outside Israel. As I've said before, the church has presumed to take the place of Israel for rejecting Christ because it's counting on its followers not knowing that was according to God's will. I think there is continuous confusion interpreting scripture by mixing what is written about Israel with the ecclesia, the body of Christ. Christ often spoke of "the eon," and most people seem to think that applies to this eon, but things said about "the eon" aren't happening now which should be a clue about what eon is being referred to. I know many people think the ecclesia is the "real" Israel, but I think the fulfillment of the promised coming kingdom of the heavens in Israel is just being paused right now until all the chosen have been called out of the nations.
"God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew. Or have you not perceived in Elijah what the scripture is saying, as he is pleading with God against Israel? Lord, Thy prophets they kill, Thine altars they dig down, and I was left alone, and they are seeking my soul. But what is that which apprises saying to him? I left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal. Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace. Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work. What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their offense is the world's riches and their discomfiture the nations' riches, how much rather that which fills them! Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation, if somehow I should be provoking those of my flesh to jealousy and should be saving some of them. For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead? Now if the firstfruit is holy, the kneading is also; and if the root is holy, the boughs are also. Now if some of the boughs are broken out, yet you, being a wild olive, are grafted among them, and became joint participant of the root and fatness of the olive, be not vaunting over the boughs. Yet if you are vaunting, you are not bearing the root, but the root you. You will be declaring, then, "Boughs are broken out that I may be grafted in." Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear. For if God spares not the natural boughs, neither will He be sparing you! Perceive, then, the kindness and severity of God! On those, indeed, who are falling, severity, yet on you, God's kindness, if you should be persisting in the kindness: else you also will be hewn out. Now they also, if they should not be persisting in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were hewn out of an olive wild by nature, and, beside nature, are grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much rather shall these, who are in accord with nature, be grafted into their own olive tree! For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering. And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. As to the evangel, indeed, they are enemies because of you, yet, as to choice, they are beloved because of the fathers. For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!" (Romans 11:2-33)
See the attachments about The Great Commission.
[sorry about attachment removal. it was unintentional. there was a forum notice that the attachment folder was almost full, and it was supposed to remove attachments over a certain age and size. i just realized it must have been the size limitation that got this one. feel free to edit your post Tom and add your attachment again. i'll try to adjust the size limitation.]
[attachment deleted by admin]
Although I personally do view water immersion as having a continuous connection with the various immersions in the Tanakh...part of its importance, as far as what it represents, stems from its origins all the way back in Genesis 1...where the Creator chose to have the land exist immersed in the waters, moved by the fluttering of the Ruach, later to come up out of the water as land, where new life would now begin to appear.
Ronen
I think the flood in Noah's time was a water baptism too.
Yes, when Peter says receive the Spirit and save yourselves from this wicked generation, you can see that in Noah.
Noah's generation died in the water. The water separated Noah from his generation. Internally, and spiritually, this is what happens when one believes and receives. Their generation dies to them, not in the sense of separating literally away, but in the sense placed in the heavenlies (the vessel ascending) within the mind and heart.
Quote from: Tom on June 08, 2015, 09:24:30 PM
I think the flood in Noah's time was a water baptism too.
Thats exactly what Peter says, And I agree :banana:
Quote from: Seth on June 08, 2015, 10:00:13 PM
Yes, when Peter says receive the Spirit and save yourselves from this wicked generation, you can see that in Noah.
Noah's generation died in the water. The water separated Noah from his generation. Internally, and spiritually, this is what happens when one believes and receives. Their generation dies to them, not in the sense of separating literally away, but in the sense placed in the heavenlies (the vessel ascending) within the mind and heart.
:2thumbs:
At a very fundamental point Tom and I disagree so there is no possibility of agreement in this more superficial issue for us :)
I believe the same gospel was delivered "once and for all" by Jesus to the twelve during 3 1/2 years of discipleship and in the 40 days during which He appeared to them risen from the dead in Jerusalem, and then later, to Paul and Jude and some later apostles.
I do not believe this one gospel has changed in one iota snce then. That is why Paul says that after 14 years of ministry he went to Jerusalem to check his gospel against Peter's "To see whether or not he had run in vain." Peter was totally familiar with Pauls teaching and declared them scriptures in his own epistle. Peter was the first to minster the gospel to the Gentiles by the command of God.
Peter proclaimed the restoration of all things, ministering the same gospel to the Jews as Paul ministered to the Gentiles, because even tho Paul was ministering primarily to Gentiles after a point- Jews were constantly trying to re-introduce the law into the Gentiles within the churches. So- to the Romans Paul thoroughly explains the ONE OLIVE TREE. To the Ephesians he explains the ONE NEW MAN.
To the Galtians he explains that in Christ thee is no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free, no male no female- FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST.
This is the gospel Paul proclaimed in all theses Gentile congregations, and it is through Paul that we have the clearest explanation of the oneness of all the ecclesia, and the strongest exhortations to contend for the faith as it was delivered in the beginning.
Jude also says....
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Ther has been no other gospel introduced by Paul or anyone. There has been no partition between Jews and Gentiles since the crucifixion of Christ, when the wall was taken down. There has been no evolution of the gospel since then and the covenant remains the same.
Baptism is a small issue measured by the weight of all the statements I made above about the gospel.
One Lord, one faith, one baptism- two gospels three divisions of the body and an evolution of the gospel fracturing and disarming the gospel as delivered through Jesus to the apostles?
I just dont think so. It is only my opinion and everyone must decide for themselves what is true. But, it is a strongly held opinion with scripture to back it up- so I hope by expressing it clearly I do not offend anyone.
Whether or not baptism had been a tradition in Judaism before Christ, John's baptism was from God. God affirmed it in speech and a manifestation of Shekinah glory at the baptism of His Son. Jesus cammanded them to baptize, and He did not do so out of respect for Jewish tradition, and the idea that Jesus was just speaking to Hebrews in the gospels(as Tom proposes) is incorrect in my opinion, and goes to my initial, and much more important, point.
There is only one gospel, only one new covenant, only one body, only one olive tree, only one Vine and whatever we may disagree about what it is or how we fulfill it-there is only one dispensation going on between the the resurrection of Jesus and the end of this age.
I absolutely agree. There's one Gospel. God is no respecter of persons just because they have different flesh (genetic code) That's why there's no Jew or Gentile in the body. All are one need man together under the same governing principle by which God judges us. One gospel.
I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing deja vu because the last Christian chat forum I was on before I came to this one had continuous debate between people who identified with either Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism. At least here, for the most part, universal reconciliation is agreed on, which is why I decided to visit this forum, but, since I've been here, I've seen that there are different interpretations of scripture similar to what I saw on the other site. I don't consider myself to belong to any school of theology. I think theology is just man's philosophy about God and scripture. I guess I would probably be accused of believing in dispensationalism though because I do think God deals differently at different times with different people in scripture, and I'm not into interpreting a lot of scripture figuratively. I just think I'm trying to understand scripture literally and only using figurative interpretation when forced to by context, which is how I think all literature should be interpreted to get a clear understanding of what it's intended to say. I've experienced conflict about immortality of the soul and eternal life here, neither which I see in an accurate translation of scripture. I've seen various other things debated too, especially when it comes to literal vs. figurative interpretation, and the issue that has just resurfaced involving the evangel. As with everything else, lots of verses are presented to support each side of the debate. I never used to be aware of a lot of what is being discussed on the forum. In fact, I used to be completely unfamiliar with scripture because, when I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, we weren't taught doctrine from scripture. I was one of the lucky kids in the family who didn't have to go to Catholic school because I was the oldest of five and we were too broke, but I got the first half of my Saturdays ruined by sitting in catechism class if I couldn't manage to skip and go have some fun somewhere. That Catholic indoctrination class was where I was told my mom was going to hell for being Methodist. So, instead of programming me like they thought they were, that was when I started to plot my escape from the church when I was old enough to get away, but I digress. Theology seems to divide believers instead of bringing them together. That's why I wasn't interested in the debates at christianchat.com, and I still find theological debates boring. But it seems like, if you believe something after acquiring enough evidence to do so, you're going to have to defend your position continuously especially if you participate on a forum. I understand the idea of one evangel for Israel and the nations because that's what I used to believe until I got some more information, but I know there are some people who have seen some of the same information and still disagree. It just seems to make sense to me considering everything I've read about Israel and the nations in scripture despite the fact that I know most people aren't even aware of the idea of two evangels. This debate has occurred before more than once on this forum. So I'm just going to attach a few PDF files for anybody who is interested, and, as has been said, you can decide for yourself what you think makes the most sense. This isn't all there is on the subject, but they're a few articles to give the basic idea of what's up. Despite the fact that I present this information by other people and think it's true, I try to keep a open mind all the time because I want to know the truth. So, regardless of what I believe now, if I get some more information about anything pertaining to scripture that causes me to think I should change my mind about something because I realize something I didn't before, I'm not going to stubbornly cling to something just because I thought it was truth for a long time. It took me awhile to come to believe in universal reconciliation. I had to spend a lot of time searching for as much information as I could, while I was actually trying to disprove it, before I finally had to admit to myself that it had to be true because everything was confirmed by an accurate translation of scripture, not just an abundance of commentary. So, instead of clogging up this thread with a perpetual debate, here are some attachments for everybody's personal reading to help you decide what you think about all of it. It may take a couple of posts to get all these files posted due to the size limit, but here they are.
[attachment deleted by admin]
...continued for more attachments
[attachment deleted by admin]
...one more.
These are just a few articles that I could dig up today, but, like I said, I think they'll give you the basic idea of why some people believe this.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: sheila on June 08, 2015, 05:05:15 PM
:laugh: when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold. we wore shirts and
shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red! I looked like I was
covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal! everything turned red!
:laughing7:
When I went under I somehow got water up my nose and came up choking something awful. Someone snapped a picture of me just as I was coming up. Needless to say it wasn't the prettiest of pictures. :friendstu:
Tom! I love that idea about Noah ark being a water baptism of sorts and I believe that to be correct! They will be made whole, healed saved! I know some Christians think only those on the ark are saved and all the rest are in hell! So sad..that would mean babies and children and countless others are tormented right now and forever with no hope! How can one who loves believe that and be anything but horrified. So sad :Pray:
The body of Christ is the new ark, carrying the hope of the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. The tabernacle of living stones is the refuge, and as this age comes to an end, those who serve jesus will receive the end of their faith- the redemption of their bodies. The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God, who, with the MAster will set them free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Romans 8)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 09, 2015, 09:05:20 AM
The body of Christ is the new ark, carrying the hope of the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. The tabernacle of living stones is the refuge, and as this age comes to an end, those who serve jesus will receive the end of their faith- the redemption of their bodies. The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God, who, with the MAster will set them free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Romans 8)
:iagree: :)
This is the most awesome thing I have yet learned about God
all evil is bound to the lower state and the rising is only in the earthly realm in the old heavens and earth , this is where death desires to reigns and as the waters rose so did the sin exposing all pride in mankind as nothing , starting over we see the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE will burn out the remainder by the LIGHT OF HIS COMING TO US each and everyone when the time is right ... ..
But thank be to God for He will send JESUS CHRIST TO REIGN in our hearts AND BEING THE LORD OF all THE DEAD AND LIVING will conquer death again and again till all his enemies be put under His feet , that is to say His teaching and victorious good news of the gospel ...
and that man of sin exposed for his prideful and arrogant blasphemous hard hearted and stiff necked ways , those necks will be broken as it rises up to conquer
broken the necks proverbs 29 Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed--without remedy.
New Living Translation
Whoever stubbornly refuses to accept criticism will suddenly be destroyed beyond recovery.
English Standard Version
He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck, will suddenly be broken beyond healing.
And to me that is a good thing
under JESUS FEET Strong's G4228 - pous
πούς
Transliteration
pous
Pronunciation
pü's (Key)
Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary word
TDNT Reference
6:624,925
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
a foot, both of men or beast
often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquishedSynonyms Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object)
1.
to conquer or subdue by superior force, as in battle.
2.
to defeat in any contest or conflict; be victorious over:
to vanquish one's opponent in an argument.
3.
to overcome or overpower:
He vanquished all his fears.
of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet
SUBDUE ALL THINGS CHRIST PHILIPPIANS 3
20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory,
by the exertion ''the application of a SPIRITUAL force, influence, or quality: of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
WOW just amazing !!!
Quote from: rosered on June 09, 2015, 06:45:20 PM
WOW just amazing !!!
There is only one Lord, and he brings the many to the place of gleeful submission.
All good all the time.
Repent and be baptized!
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habbakuk 2:14
Glory to God!
Quote from: Tom on June 09, 2015, 01:35:45 AM
I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing deja vu because the last Christian chat forum I was on before I came to this one had continuous debate between people who identified with either Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism. At least here, for the most part, universal reconciliation is agreed on, which is why I decided to visit this forum, but, since I've been here, I've seen that there are different interpretations of scripture similar to what I saw on the other site. I don't consider myself to belong to any school of theology. I think theology is just man's philosophy about God and scripture. I guess I would probably be accused of believing in dispensationalism though because I do think God deals differently at different times with different people in scripture, and I'm not into interpreting a lot of scripture figuratively. I just think I'm trying to understand scripture literally and only using figurative interpretation when forced to by context, which is how I think all literature should be interpreted to get a clear understanding of what it's intended to say. I've experienced conflict about immortality of the soul and eternal life here, neither which I see in an accurate translation of scripture. I've seen various other things debated too, especially when it comes to literal vs. figurative interpretation, and the issue that has just resurfaced involving the evangel. As with everything else, lots of verses are presented to support each side of the debate. I never used to be aware of a lot of what is being discussed on the forum. In fact, I used to be completely unfamiliar with scripture because, when I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, we weren't taught doctrine from scripture. I was one of the lucky kids in the family who didn't have to go to Catholic school because I was the oldest of five and we were too broke, but I got the first half of my Saturdays ruined by sitting in catechism class if I couldn't manage to skip and go have some fun somewhere. That Catholic indoctrination class was where I was told my mom was going to hell for being Methodist. So, instead of programming me like they thought they were, that was when I started to plot my escape from the church when I was old enough to get away, but I digress. Theology seems to divide believers instead of bringing them together. That's why I wasn't interested in the debates at christianchat.com, and I still find theological debates boring. But it seems like, if you believe something after acquiring enough evidence to do so, you're going to have to defend your position continuously especially if you participate on a forum. I understand the idea of one evangel for Israel and the nations because that's what I used to believe until I got some more information, but I know there are some people who have seen some of the same information and still disagree. It just seems to make sense to me considering everything I've read about Israel and the nations in scripture despite the fact that I know most people aren't even aware of the idea of two evangels. This debate has occurred before more than once on this forum. So I'm just going to attach a few PDF files for anybody who is interested, and, as has been said, you can decide for yourself what you think makes the most sense. This isn't all there is on the subject, but they're a few articles to give the basic idea of what's up. Despite the fact that I present this information by other people and think it's true, I try to keep a open mind all the time because I want to know the truth. So, regardless of what I believe now, if I get some more information about anything pertaining to scripture that causes me to think I should change my mind about something because I realize something I didn't before, I'm not going to stubbornly cling to something just because I thought it was truth for a long time. It took me awhile to come to believe in universal reconciliation. I had to spend a lot of time searching for as much information as I could, while I was actually trying to disprove it, before I finally had to admit to myself that it had to be true because everything was confirmed by an accurate translation of scripture, not just an abundance of commentary. So, instead of clogging up this thread with a perpetual debate, here are some attachments for everybody's personal reading to help you decide what you think about all of it. It may take a couple of posts to get all these files posted due to the size limit, but here they are.
Dear Tom,
What I wanted to say was that I read the sincerity in your post and although you and I have very different ideas indeed, I was touched by your honesty. There is something about honesty which transcends opinions.
I downloaded a few of the files that you posted, thank you. If I did not have my own service in the Spirit to perform which will last years [God willing], I would make a study of them. Ultimately, I know the outcomes would not affect my core beliefs which do not depend on theologies as such.
Tony
Peace in the Great Father
I understand, bro. I think it's sad that theology tends to divide believers rather than unite them like the body of Christ does in spirit. Folks who come to agree with the Concordant teachings are accustomed to being in the minority because orthodox theology doesn't like to be contradicted. I really don't consider myself to be a follower of any theology, but I understand how I can be associated with some because of what I've come to believe from studying scripture. I think it's important to maintain an open mind though because truth is what we should seek wherever it leads us. I think everybody's interpretation should be respected even if you don't agree with it. I hear a lot of figurative interpretations that I find amusing, some even humorous, but I don't put anybody down because I know everybody has their own perspective. I think anybody can imagine anything from the text of scripture, but I prefer to interpret it literally like all literature unless the context seems to demand it be interpreted figuratively. I also like to hear what anybody has to say because I think we can benefit each other even if we don't always agree. I try to keep it real without offending anybody even though it seems I've been misinterpreted sometimes. I'm not going to let anybody's negative opinion worry me because it ain't that serious. I'm just going to keep on grinning. Life makes you crazy sometimes, but sometimes sanity seems relative just like reality. So I don't worry about that either. I think there are as many ways to interpret scripture as there are people who read it, and we've all got our own brand of crazy to deal with when we do so. Sometimes it helps to see how somebody else sees things, and sometimes it doesn't. But I don't think we should avoid checking it out when we have the opportunity to do so because we might learn something just by seeing everything through somebody else's eyes. Anyway, I sometimes just share information that I've received to try to help some people who may be seeking the truth. I don't have all the answers, but I believe the word of God does if we take the time to study it. And the amazing thing about it is, no matter how much you read it, you can still learn something new anytime you do, or at least be edified again by reading something you're familiar with. I feel compassion for people who come here seeking the truth because I remember when I was young and had just left the church and was seeking. I went down a lot of dead ends before I found the way and the truth and the life. In retrospect, taking the unintentional detours was a learning experience, but I would like to help save some people the trouble they caused me if I can. That's why I never mind sharing information that I've acquired along the way, and people can take it or leave it. But at least they will have heard it so they can make an intelligent decision about whether they want to receive it and believe it. I say don't take anybody's word for anything except the word of God because that's the only word you can always rely on. You really need to get hold of an accurate translation though to know the truth. I've been ramblin on too long here. So I'm out. Peace to you too, bro.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 07, 2015, 07:01:14 PM
Very selective offerings. It seems to me that all the scriputes on the topic must be considered.
Mind you, I am not teaching baptismal salvation. All I have said is that baptism in water remains in effect under the new covenant, and provides a benefit that is more than just ritual. Acts 19 makes it clear to me that Paul thought, taught and practised this.
I think there is more than enough scripture to support that view, so I have offered it, and I stand behind it- but I am not trying to make baptism a law for anyone, or teach baptismal justification, or any such thing.
As I have said repeatedly, Jesus submitted to it to fulfill all righteousness, the apostles taught it, let every person be convinced in their own heart how they ought to respond to the scriptures on the matter- but at least consider all the scriptures.
I agree with EW. Salvation (healing) is a process.
It all starts with a calling from God (John 6:44).
That is God's doing. And then we are led to repentance
Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
So we are required to repent of our sins and acknowledge our sinful nature.
And water baptism typically enters into this process.
In the NT we find mention to the word baptism or its variation 82 times, and most are referring to water baptism.
That should tell us something about its importance to the conversion process.
Look at how many times it is mentioned in the NT. Of Paul's conversion, of the Ethiopian eunuch, of the 3000 at Pentecost, Lydia, Crispus Cornelius and family, Jesus Himself and many others.
No I do not believe that salvation hinges on a water baptism, but it is something that many who are called of God do out of repentance and faith.
I also see that in the OT the Noah deluge was a water baptism shadowing the need for all humanity to be purified by God and Him being the Saviour of all.
Similarly the crossing of the Red Sea was symbolic of a nation, the chosen Israelites, typifying a baptismal process ending physically after 40 years and entering the promised land.
Then the spiritual reality is the baptism in the NT which is a personal experience of conversion. And assuredly, the primary baptism is by the Holy Spirit wherein Christ dwells in us.
In the NT we find a few types of baptisms.
Baptism by water.
Baptism by fire.
Baptism unto death.
And in Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
So is there one baptism or more?
One does not always mean only or singlular. It can also mean primary according to Strong's G1520.
There is one Spirit and yet we read of 7 spirits (Rev 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6)
There is one baptism and yet we read of baptism of water and of fire.
The primary and foremost one is baptism (immersion) of the Spirit which brings about immortality.
If we have a conviction to be water baptized as an act of sincere repentance, how do we do it? It really is an expression of faith.
Some have had that experience through the church (group) they attended. In my case it was in the Worldwide Church of God in July1972. Warm summer day, not like that of Sheila (post #58 - baptized in winter).
To me below are testimonials indicating the value of water baptism of some forum members:
lomarah post # 22
To each their own in my opinion!
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho.
I felt exactly what Lomarah felt about her baptism which she mentions.
Sheila's post 58 :
when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold. we wore shirts and
shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red! I looked like I was
covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal! everything turned red!
- Also I really was impressed by what Sheila said about her two baptisms (post #17):
I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and
the Holy spirit. so when I was brought out and taught about the salvation of all men. I baptized myself
all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.
what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days? the very churches He called us out of?
my ears are open
I find a more meaning full way of looking at this topic of baptism is by using the word
immersion to gain a deeper appreciation for what his thing called baptism is all about in English (just my opinion). Young's LV uses
immersion for baptism.
Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed
immersed (baptized) with water; but ye shall be
immersed (baptized) with the Holy Ghost.
Finally from rosered post 36 is so true :
I do not see any divisions , just layers of TRUTH in everyone discussing the subject of baptism and its meaning to them personally
relevant scriptures:
baptise - 9 matches
baptized - 51 matches
baptism - 22 matches
Mat_3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat_3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat_3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat_3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat_20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat_20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mar_1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar_1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mar_10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar_10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar_16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luk_3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk_3:12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
Luk_3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk_7:29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk_7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luk_12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Joh_3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh_3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh_4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh_4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Joh_10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act_2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act_8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act_8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act_8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act_8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act_8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act_9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act_10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act_10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act_11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act_16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Act_16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act_18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act_19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act_19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act_19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act_22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom_6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
1Co_1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co_1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co_1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co_1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co_10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co_12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co_15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Gal_3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Great Post :o)
I'm wondering about Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who does not believe shall be judged/condemned.
I personally believe that we are saved by the Spirit which comes to us by faith, not our own works, although I can also see that water baptism is part of the New Testament acts. So, I think we all agree that water baptism isn't a salvation issue. What I wonder though, is if this Mark verse means Spirit baptism, what about the other instances of that word that do not specify "water" or "spirit." In other words, if I say I baptized someone, you might automatically think I mean in water. But what if I meant Spirit?
I thought about that too, Seth.
Here is where I am with that, so far....
There is only one Person who baptizes us with the holy Spirit.....Jesus.
So that rules out any individual claiming to have baptized anyone else in the Spirit. But we can water baptize one another endlessly! :)
Well, i dunno. We are to lay hands people and they recieve the Spirit. Yes, Jesus is responsible, but remember, we are his hands and feed in the world, his body which does his work.
Like taking Mark 16:16 for example. "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved." What if someone believes but there is literally no water around to be baptized in? Will he be condemned if he dies before being water baptized, to fulfill that verse?
As I see it.....
We still tend to define salvation in the ET paradgim.
Sozo means heal/delivered/make whole/restore. Baptism heals and delivers. It is a part of the process that make us whole. It contributes to our restoration.
Justification comes through believing. Sanctification comes through a process. Discipleship. Obedience. Trials. And of course, the Spirit. Baptism is a part of the process.
If someone refuses baptism they are still justified by faith, but they are confused or disobedient perhaps. They are refusing the process of their own healing and restoration.
Peter proclaimed, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
As israel was saved through the Red Sea. One could say, "But it was the blood on the doorpost that saved them" and they would be right. Someone else would say, "But it was the burial of the strong man and his armies in the Red Sea that saved them" and they would be right. Someone else would say, "But it was the Spirit in the cloud and fire that saved them" and they would be right.
"These three agree in one, the blood, the water, and the Spirit"
On the cross, three things came out of Jesus when He died. He gave up the ghost(spirit), and blood and water pured out of the wound in His side.
Blood, water and Spirit.
The blood on the doorpost caused the death angel to pass over the firstborn of Israel. This is symbolic of Justification unto Life in the Spirit- Passover.
The water has to do with the obedience of faith, believing the word of God unto obedence and the washing of water with the word- Sanctification.
The Spirit has to do with resurrection power, "strengthened with might in your inner man so that you may now the heighth and depth and breadth of the love of Christ and be filled up to the fulness of God- Vivification
All of these save- and all of them save continually.
The Red Sea separated Israel from Egypt and buried the strong man. Paul called baptism a burial. I do not need to completely understand it. I don't need to justify it or even totally analyze it because that is a part of what it is supposed to bury in me. I can obey because of my faith in God, in His word.The strong man is the carnal mind. Submitting to the word of God in baptism is a step of faith in obedience to the word of God and it has its place, its function, and its rewards.
As do the laying on of hands and communion, when enacted in faith. But the things of the spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind, so what does man do?
Communion gets changed to transubstantiation(the actual flesh of Christ) or reduced to a simple ritual. The real efficacy of communion lies in between those two extremes, simply as the word declares,re-awakening our consciousness to the body of Christ and His sacrifice and our union in Him. We are eating the same bread. His body made us what we are-
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
If there is no water around you wait till there is. God is very reasonable LOLOL. It is like the Sabbath.
Jesus said God made the Sabbath for man. He didnt make man for the Sabbath.
God made baptism to bless and to heal. Not as a law over which to hang someone.
If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2015, 08:41:54 AM
If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.
Ok, so I agree with what you are saying in these posts that it's not really legalistic. What I meant was, if someone dies before receiving water baptism is he still condemned in sin? Should he fear judgment of the wrath to come. I think you and I woudo agree that he would not.
So I go back to Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Is Jesus talking about water or Spirit and how do you know?
Quote from: Seth on June 10, 2015, 08:45:19 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2015, 08:41:54 AM
If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.
Ok, so I agree with what you are saying in these posts that it's not really legalistic. What I meant was, if someone dies before receiving water baptism is he still condemned in sin? Should he fear judgment of the wrath to come. I think you and I woudo agree that he would not.
So I go back to Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Is Jesus talking about water or Spirit and how do you know?
I do not believe baptism has anything to do with condemnation. If an Israelite had refused to go through the RedSea they would not have been condemned- they would have been taken back into captivity.
If someone did not get on Noah's ark they just drowned.
But there is a consequence for a believer who is disobedient- in my opinion. They lose the reward. The benefit that baptism gives, which as I have said, in my opinion is very real.
New believers never refuse baptism anyway. I have baptized hundreds of new converts in my lifetime. Only theologians refuse baptism(joke).
And even tho Israel was delivered from Egypt, they could go back if they wanted to, and many did in later generations. Baptism is not a guarantee, it is simply an operation that enables believers to bury their past.....and that is NO SMALL THING in my experience.
"the body of the sins of the flesh"
The flesh is already judged, nailed to the cross. In baptism it is buried, "the answer of a clear conscience".
Again, not disagreeing about many things there. But my question about what baptism Jesus meant in Mark 16:16 has gone unanswered.
I personally believe he was talking about Spirit baptism. Also, in Romans 6, I think he is talking about Spirit baptism. I believe we are baptized into his death by the Spirit,meaning that someone can be baptized into Christ's death and be resurrected to life without having touched physical water, because as Romans 6 says, he who is dead is freed from sin. Only the Spirit can make us dead to sin. Though clearly water baptism was done, I don't think that means that when you see the word "baptized" in the scripture, it automatically means by water, unless the context clearly says so. It could also mean by Spirit.
Just like in Mark 16:16, you have to draw a conclusion about what he meant even though he wasn't specific. To me that means there is a certain amount of interpretation that goes into it, at leas that's how I see it.
I understand what you are saying, and if it wasnt for the book of Acts I could entertain the notion. All of the types and shadows line up with Acts 2:38 for me. This was the practice of the early church, and in my opinion it wasnt ritual or tradition. I do not think Mark 16:16 is talking about the Spirit- it is too similar to Matthew 28 for one thing, But even without the gospels the case for water baptism is strong just through viewing the book of Acts.
I interpret the intention of Jesus with the body through the acts of the apostles as much as through the epistles.
34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37 And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.
Why did he ask this question? It was proclaimed to him as part of the gospel, just as Peter and Paul proclaimed it, and Jesus proclaimed it.
If Mark 16:16 is talking about water, then how can one be saved without water baptism?
Also I think about when Peter says that baptism saves us, not the washing of filth from the body but a clear conscious toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I think clearly he is talking about Christ's baptism, I shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
If Peter had said "baptism does save us" and left it at that, would we all assume that he was talking about water baptism?
What does saved mean?
Where did this question- What if you dont do it? Come from?(speaking hypethetically)
Salvation is a gift. It is healing and restoration. It is not escape from hell. Jesus is not making law in mark 16:16. He is describing the process, instructing His disciples in the tools of their trade. Gettin folks out from under the world, the flesh and the devil- and into the new creation, healed and whole.
Otherwise there is only one other conclusion. The apostles didnt know what they were doing. They did not have the revelation we have. They practiced jewish traditions because they never got the teachings of jesus right. Only Paul understood and that not untill he had been ministering wron for a long time
Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.
when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
I dont kno Seth, Peter clearly says water- "corresponding to that....not by the removal of dirt from the flesh"(bath/ritual washing)... with all the practice of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in acts its really a stretch to make these verses about the baptism in the Holy Spirit- to me
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2015, 09:40:58 AM
What does saved mean?
Where did this question- What if you dont do it? Come from?(speaking hypethetically)
Salvation is a gift. It is healing and restoration. It is not escape from hell. Jesus is not making law in mark 16:16. He is describing the process, instructing His disciples in the tools of their trade. Gettin folks out from under the world, the flesh and the devil- and into the new creation, healed and whole.
Otherwise there is only one other conclusion. The apostles didnt know what they were doing. They did not have the revelation we have. They practiced jewish traditions because they never got the teachings of jesus right. Only Paul understood and that not untill he had been ministering wron for a long time
Brother, he says whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. if someone cannot logistically be water baptized but can still recieve the Spirit and be saved/healed,that means Jesus wasn't talking about water in that scripture.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 10, 2015, 09:45:44 AM
when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
I dont kno Seth, Peter clearly says water- "corresponding to that....not by the removal of dirt from the flesh"(bath/ritual washing)... with all the practice of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in acts its really a stretch to make these verses about the baptism in the Holy Spirit- to me
That's a matter of interpretation given the fact that Jesus identifies two kinds so baptism in the Bible. A clear conscience "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ?" Jesus was raised a life giving Spirit. Paul says that we are saved BY HIS LIFE, (Romans 5:10) not by physical water. Physical water doesn't have healing power. The resurrection of Jesus Christ contains the power to heal us of sin.
I would agree with that too, but in Hebrews 6, "doctrine of baptisms" is a foundation doctrine. Its not advanced meat. Its milk.
There are three baptisms spoken of, baptism into death, baptism in water, which relates to the first, and baptism in the Holy Spirit, which term was only used by Jesus.
Then there is the issue Tom brought up, the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4.
Any of these could apply in certain places but only one applies in the practice of the apostles because the book of Acts plainly tells us what they did.
For me, if they were wrong in what they did, or following a tradition, then the whole thing is baloney. They had walked with Jesus 3 1/2 years, They had a 40 day seminar with the risen Christ, They were commissioned with the keys of the kingdom and they were called the foundation stone of the heavenly Jerusalem by John the Revelator. Paul claimed to have the "whole counsel of God- and that was before he went to Rome at the end of Acts.
There is just no way I will believe Peter and John missed it in Acts.
No Way
We read what Jesus told them to do in Matthew 28 and Mark 16 and thats EXACTLY what they did.
But now we know better :o) They just didnt have the knowledge we have LOL
Personally I think Romans 6 is clearly about water baptism. The language wherever Paul talks about the Spirit is clear as well.....
Strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man.... the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that is given us...... walk in the Spirit....be filled with the Spirit. but anyway :o)
I really dont think baptism is really optional if a believer wants to walk in victory over the long haul, but i do think it is optional in terms of , if you dont do it dont worry- you aint goin to hell :o)
Well, I have to restate that I'm not saying they got it wrong with water baptism. So we can clear that right away. And I'm not saying believers shouldn't be water baptized. So you don't have to defend that with me,
My point has to do with what baptism saves us. I believe we are saved, as Paul says, "by his life" (Romans 5:10), so when I see that Jesus says that John baptized with water, but HE will baptize us with the Holy Spirit, I have a choice to make in interpretation.
We are saved by his life. As Peter said, we are saved through baptism, through the reusrrection of Jesus Christ.
Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
I see that and think, hmm, which baptism grants the power to speak in new tongues and cast out devils?
Romans 6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
I see "for he that is dead is freed from sin." And I think, which baptism can free us from sin? Does water free me from sin? Does Spirit free me from sin? After all Paul does say "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."
Is my old man crucified because I was baptized with water? Or is my old man crucified because Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit. You might say it's water, but that requires interpretation, and it is by no means set in stone that all cases of the word "baptism" must refer to water, because Jesus identifies two kinds of baptism, and you as a reader must make an interpretation if the context isn't specific, especially when the context refers to the gifts of the spirit, salvation and the death of sin.
I don't belive water baptism saves us. I believe we are saved by his life. That doesn't mean I don't think a believer should do water baptism, or that the Apostles didn't do it.
Here is where we all vary on interpretation .....
I believe in the power of God to the point that JESUS would make all things new by destroying death at the cross and nothing could hold
for me the red and dead sea is found in Revelation 20 when John said these things are to shortly come to pass .. and quickly I believe this happened when Jesus did speak to the ''spirits'' in prison as we are now
when did the books open for you ? when did you experience the book of life ? when did you hear His voice and the call of the bride to come up here ?
what was the work of teh cross of Jesus Christ , but to fulfill the old covenanat and bring in the new coveant , making all things new , Him being the testator =ONE who has made a will or given a legacy.
Who goes boldly before the THRONE OF GRACE ?Hebrews 4 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
are we raised up from the dead than ? to even be able to approach Gods grace before the throne
I tell you this age of grace is it !!! in Gods kingdom ALL will be the same and all have seen him face to face on the last day of their earthly existence ...
I just got out of the lake of fire correction , for not just taking the evil and standing silent before my accuser and my spirit was cast in prison , and am not in the place of the Spiritual ''rest'' I was before the test/ trial
please prove me wrong here , I beg you,,,, those whom hold this doctrine so dearly
...12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire....
LOOK AT JESUS WORDS IN LUKE 12 JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT THIS NOW not some other millennial age to come , big mistake that is a faulty error of interpretation by human terms and understanding , I want more proof please
The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?
It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
from a servant to a son whom inherit all things Rev 21;7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
the dead red sea and the sea gave up the dead ..... can we die a thousand deaths in one lifetime ? spiritually speaking because the dead know nothing to what the Lord is doing ....
"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Is this the increase of God permits ? Hebrews 6 from those beggarly elements ? Does the elements melt with fervent heat ? Does the Holy Spirit and fire mean , Judgment with Comforting TRUTH ?
Luke 12
"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo,
and what constraint I am under until it is completed!
Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.
From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
This is exactly what we are undergoing right now .... everywhere !! even here to a certain degree .. the heat is on
and the [SWORD] WORD OF GOD IS DIVIDING the true from the false and the believers from the hypocrits and souls from the spirits Hebrews 4
He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does.
And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is.
Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?
"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
spirits in prison !! JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND THE LIVING , Think about that , Him being the JUDGE OF ALL AND ALL ARE SUBJECT TO HIM NOW ........ the dead and living meaning all are subject to HIM
"Whoever would love life
and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
and their lips from deceitful speech.
They must turn from evil and do good;
they must seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed.
"Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened." But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord.
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.
In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
THE LORD is showing us that we are still in the red dead sea of blood and the parting of it is law [in law division ] and grace [man in the house ]
and every man must build on the Rock so the flood does not wash him away back into the dead red sea [all the unbelieving same as being disobedient ]
you have NOT strive against sin to the shedding of blood hebrews 12 ;4
Till now you have not given your blood in your fight against sin sin cast into the sea as blood where the dead will be raised to LIFE AGAIN BY THE FORGIVENESS AND MERCY OF GODS UNCHANGING LOVE ...
Micah 7 ...
18Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.
19He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. 20You will give truth to Jacob And unchanging love to Abraham, Which You swore to our forefathers From the days of old.
His enemies shall be his footstool Hebrews 10 Christ's Sacrifice Once for All the dead and the living
...12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified....
Its is very intense and by Holy Spirit witness we can see our time to Shine is a now thing inthe earth , but all will shine by HIS PRESENCE as on earth as it is in heaven
many are called but a few are chosen
the calling is to come up here with M e [LAMB OF GOD ] and the bride now but few are chosen out of the world for this , many are not risen till the last day
the last day is our last day of being mortal to me or as dead in the body and alive by faith in Christ , you have already begun to LIVE IN THE SPIRIT &TRUTH
Neh 8:18 Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.
Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select allJhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.WE KNOW HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE
Jhn 12:48 He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. Yes I can see this as the mortal [earthly man] has taken on immortality [spiritual man in CHRIST] !!
.
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
I find it awesome that the last penny [to get out of prison ] and was a days wage in the Lords vineyard ...
Even what he thinks he has will be taken away and given to another the faithful servant
Jesus is THE SON OF GOD and greatest of all and servant of ALL tasting death for every man
Hebrews 2 8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings....
the sufferings and fiery trials are what makes perfect , so why would God not give us both the HOLY SPIRIT and lake of fire
we are to die right? so we can live and new life
I can see for some that blessed is He whom is in the first resurrection for the second death has no power to harm
But the harm/or hurt is to correct us and chasten us as we harmed others we are judged and measured to be harmed
by the heat of the day to melt the elements being under the bondage of them http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4747&t=KJV
being the HEAT OF THE DAY [thoussand year regin] Rev 2:11 He that hath G2192 an ear, G3775 let him hear G191 what G5101 the Spirit G4151 saith G3004 unto the churches; G1577 He that overcometh G3528 shall G91 G0 not G3364 be hurt G91 of G1537 the second G1208 death. G2288
Rev 20:6 Blessed G3107 and G2532 holy G40 is he that hath G2192 part G3313 in G1722 the first G4413 resurrection: G386 on G1909 such G5130 the second G1208 death G2288 hath G2192 no G3756 power, G1849 but G235 they shall be G2071 priests G2409 of God G2316 and G2532 of Christ, G5547 and G2532 shall reign G936 with G3326 him G846 a thousand G5507 years. G2094
Rev 20:14 And G2532 death G2288 and G2532 hell G86 were cast G906 into G1519 the lake G3041 of fire. G4442 This G3778 is G2076 the second G1208 death. G2288
Rev 21:8 But G1161 the fearful, G1169 and G2532 unbelieving, G571 and G2532 the abominable, G948 and G2532 murderers, G5406 and G2532 whoremongers, G4205 and G2532 sorcerers, G5332 and G2532 idolaters, G1496 and G2532 all G3956 liars, G5571 shall have their G846 part G3313 in G1722 the lake G3041 which G3588 burneth G2545 with fire G4442 and G2532 brimstone: G2303 which is G3603 the second G1208 death. G2288
heat is what will make us repent , ever hear the expression on fire for God ?
I believe Jesus wants the ministers wicks burning and Holy Spirit oil as Lamps to the world Hebrews 1 Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Its says our flesh being clothed in Christ today cast into an oven tomorrow ....
I really believe our fiery trials are exactly this very thing !!! the torment of failure !
...27"Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;
but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
28"But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29"And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying....
I studied this a long time ago and saw the lilies of the field ''represent'' the white ones in the world whom are as the trumpets blasting and preparing us for battle ... Paul was one by the revelation of Jesus Christ having the proof and witness in his mouth as will as written for our instruction
Jas 1:11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.[ the church of laconian church in rev 3 you are rich and need nothing , oh no get ready for some eye slave !!]
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[Spiritual man being completed in Christ ]
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. carnal man still burning out the elements of bondage to learn righteousness in the earth and call on the name of the Lord to be saved ]
wow , sorry so long , but it just keeps on connecting :HeartThrob:
Fingers type fast and whole lines posts get deleted in the wink of an eye!
Rosered, that was great.
The scripture that impacted me was that Jesus wanted the fire kindled, but had a baptism to undergo first.
He has undergone that baptism and brings the fire to us now.
The sword and the fire are the division of the old and the new. The work of the fire burns the old, and brings the pure. The work of the sword divides the old from the new, it is never pleasant to have the old cut away. Many fight the sword to their death...........and don't even know it.
Great post rose.
The thing about baptism that impresses me is a total immersion in person of Jesus Christ........not the flesh man, but the risen Lord. It is truly the most awesome of all things, far surpassing a ceremony of water. Water ceremonies are wonderful, for they tell of what is true in the spirit. I'm not knocking water, it is a symbol of the true.
Quote from: ed on June 10, 2015, 03:22:45 PM
Fingers type fast and whole lines posts get deleted in the wink of an eye!
Rosered, that was great.
The scripture that impacted me was that Jesus wanted the fire kindled, but had a baptism to undergo first.
He has undergone that baptism and brings the fire to us now.
The sword and the fire are the division of the old and the new. The work of the fire burns the old, and brings the pure. The work of the sword divides the old from the new, it is never pleasant to have the old cut away. Many fight the sword to their death...........and don't even know it.
Great post rose.
The thing about baptism that impresses me is a total immersion in person of Jesus Christ........not the flesh man, but the risen Lord. It is truly the most awesome of all things, far surpassing a ceremony of water. Water ceremonies are wonderful, for they tell of what is true in the spirit. I'm not knocking water, it is a symbol of the true.
Amen ed !! So glad you saw them things too!! :dsunny:
This has been an inward thing going on for awhile[an inward stirring of the Spirit ] , but it just like a volcano had to erupt finally ,,
I was going into silence and not post here for awhile , but could not hold the silence :dontknow:
I knew the key was to see ''
Jesus setting the world on fire by the Cross''being baptism of death '''''
I do believe there is the realm of the Spirit that perfection is met
looking at the earth and you see the troubles of no peace and divisions and the warring between .
The Gold Lampstand
...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 6 Then he said to me, "This is
the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying,
'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts. 7What are you,
O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel
you will become a plain; and
he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"...Ephesians 6:17
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. all those being gathering into Christ are equipped with the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT [HELMET of salvation is the mind of Christ also the crown of life in the end result Paul said in Romans 7 I just went through this !!
the world is within you all these things are battles within you
even in troublesome times Daniel 9
Gabriel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks
...24"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and
your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25"
So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off
and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.... prince world nothing in me Peace I Leave with You
...29"Now I have told you before it happens,
so that when it happens, you may believe. 30"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler/prince of the world is coming
, and he has nothing in Me;
31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
I can see the huge divide as the SPIRIT has victory over the carnal nature in mankind from the point of the cross on to this DAY [1000 year reign]
His feet the shodding of peace and doctrine do crush the head of satan Romans 16 Avoid Divisions
...19
For the report of your obedience has reached to all;[I believe in heaven and all the witnesses surrounding us all ,even the earth would receive Word ]
therefore I am rejoicing over you,
but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil. 20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you. to know I have loved you showing brotherly Love
Message to the Church in Philadelphia
...8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.
9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie--
I will make them come and bow down at your feet, a
nd make them know that I have loved you. 10
Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.... the one hour being The Mystery Explained
...11"The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.
12"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom,
but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.
13"
These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.
to make war with the Lamb and the lamb will OVERCOME THEM !! and that is how Baylon will be destroyed fulfilling Gods will
this is everyone speaking about the earthly church system in their carnal minds [beast] making her naked
exposing her sin error eating her flesh is the same as devouring one another
Galatians 5 Freedom in Christ
...14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15B
ut if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. and burning her with fire
T
he tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell/ gehenna judgment .
so God uses both the carnal and Spiritual in natures to fulfill his will /desire
Rosered, I really enjoyed these last couple of posts. Good Stuff!
Pat
The way I see water baptism is how Paul wanted the actions of married couples to reflect the relationship that Jesus has with the church. Also, Jesus took physical bread and wine and said it was (symbolized, since he hadn't died yet) his body and blood and that they ought to do this in remembrance of him. I can see the value that physical things have in reflecting and reminding us of spiritual things, because we are physical beings with physical eyes. So, in no way am I saying there is anything wrong with water baptism. My point here is that if we see the word "baptized" and assert that it automatically refers to John's water baptism in all cases of ambiguity, I see that as a matter of debatable interpretation, not an open and shut case.
Peter was clear that a certain baptism saves us. When I look in Titus 3 and it says that we were saved, not by our own works of righteousness (water baptism qualifies as a work) but by the washing, and regeneration of the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism), to me the odds are stacked against water baptism being the "baptism doth save" that Peter was talking about, or that Christ was talking about in Mark 16:16.
Just one man's opinion.
Quote from: Caffus on June 06, 2015, 02:31:01 AM
I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out. I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why. As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts. We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:
The Aramaic word for repent is תוב (tuwb), similar to the Hebrew word שוב (shuwb), which always carries the action of returning to where one was at first. We came from God. We are not simply breathing, walking dirt. He breathed of himself into us. He is the source of anything we do. The fleshly mind is a distorting of that truth, as it is under the delusion that we are separate from God and can do without him.
The Aramaic word for belief is הימן (hiymen). Hebraically, it is about supporting what one is connected to (such as when Aaron and Hur supported Moses outstretched arms). If I support something, I am mentally connected to it and my actions will show it. (Think of supporting one's team by attending games, buying gear, telling everyone about how great they are, etc).
To me, when someone expresses hiymen (belief) in the good news, they are reconnecting with their origin, their home in their Creator, by means of the Yeshua, the true and living Miltha. Such a person is automatically tuwb (repenting), as they are mentally returning to that original and authentic mindset, that anything they are is utterly connected with and dependent on a merciful God.
That is the essence of what I see Peter calling for, a mental return. This has nothing to do with actions. The actions are not the source of tuwb, but the result of it.
I believe the thief on the cross expressed this. He mentally supported Yeshua by saying 'we are getting what we deserve, but this Man has done nothing wrong'. He also reconnected with him, recognizing him as his source by asking, 'Master, remember me when you come into your kingdom'.
Ronen
Quote from: Seth on June 10, 2015, 09:44:52 AM
Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.
I was wondering about the same thing, Seth.
I even wonder when the Bible says something like 'they were baptized', it necesarily means water baptism, but it could probably be something we assume. As in Acts 19:
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.
5 On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
6 And as Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Verse 6 imo doesn't have to mean that Paul laid hands upon them
after they were baptized, it could also describe more closely what happened in verse 5, namely, they were being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Not stating anything btw, just wondering.
Quote from: Patinak on June 10, 2015, 07:03:31 PM
Rosered, I really enjoyed these last couple of posts. Good Stuff!
Pat
God bless Pat , you can see this too!! :dsunny:
Many are starting to seeing the Holy Spirit and FIRE baptism more clearly
Praise God :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Abigail on June 10, 2015, 11:09:22 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 10, 2015, 09:44:52 AM
Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.
I was wondering about the same thing, Seth.
I even wonder when the Bible says something like 'they were baptized', it necesarily means water baptism, but it could probably be something we assume. As in Acts 19:
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.
5 On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
6 And as Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
Verse 6 imo doesn't have to mean that Paul laid hands upon them after they were baptized, it could also describe more closely what happened in verse 5, namely, they were being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Not stating anything btw, just wondering.
Well, if we take certain individual scriptures and look at them alone, we could indeed wonder. But, when we look at the whole context of the gospels and Acts- it is clear they were all baptized in water AND with the Holy Ghost and fire.
I have seen many people baptized in the Spirit. I have been baptized in the Spirit and move in the gifts of the Spirit and have for nearly 40 years.
I have layed hands on people who have not yet been baptized and seen them receive the Holy Spirit. Then I baptize them in water. This is the new Testament pattern, and it is effective when practiced....
But let me make this clear.
I am teaching baptism only as a spiritual benefit to believers. The baptism in the Spirit with fire often comes
before baptism as with Cornelius' household, and that is proof that reconciliation and justification happen STRICTLY THROUGH BELIEVING. For me believing is turning to God by faith n Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
But there is no question as to what the apostles practiced.
As to Acts 19- IT IS CLEAR THAT THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN WATER. This is because if you read the whole story you will see that Paul asked them....
"Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE YOU BELIEVED.
They answered, "We hadnt heard of this"
So Paul asked them, "Unto what baptism were you baptized"
They said, "John's baptism"----
John's baptism was in water unto repentenceWhy did paul ask this question? What baptism did you receive? To determine if they were new believers who had not received the Holy Spirit yet as in Acts 8
12 But
when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ,
they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
14
Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.
This makes the distinction CLEARLY- they had not received the Holy Spirit baptism yet- they had believed and been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19 describes the SAME APPLICATION.....
Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be.
Cornelius Household....
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.
It really can't be much clearer than that. So, you have Phillip baptizing the eunuch- in water
All the disciples that Phillip evangelized- baptized in water in Jesus name- and then later receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost thru the laying on of hands of the apostles
All of Cornelius' household- THE FIRST GENTILES TO RECEIVE THE GOSPEL AND THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT- baptized in water in Jesus name.
Acts 19- when is says "so they were batized in the name of the Lord Jesus and Paul layed his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and prophesied"- this is the same pattern, I dont see why would anyone try to break it out of the continuity of context- but there you have it, I am just presenting my opinion and everyone is welcome to there own view LOL
I have seen the Holy Spirit fall many times, no one should take my word for it -but i will say that from the time I began baptizing disciples as soon as they believed I saw a marked increase in the number of them who were immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and fire.
BTW Seth,
I read Mark 16:16 like this
He that believes and is baptized will be healed and delivered.
That is what sozo(Grk for saved) means,
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2015, 12:58:33 AM
BTW Seth,
I read Mark 16:16 like this
He that believes and is baptized will be healed and delivered.
That is what sozo(Grk for saved) means,
Right I agree about healed and delivered.
And since the context of salvation in the NT is that we are saved not by our works but by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit, here is how I read the scripture:
He that believes and is baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit shall be healed and delivered. And he shall speak in tongues and cast out demons.
I read it differently- but I have no problem with that, it is certainly not conclusive in that individual verse taken alone
But it is clear to me that what the apostles practiced included water baptism.
And I also agree with at. They did practice water baptism.
I can certainly see how people can build up a scriptural need to undergo a ritualistic ceremony in order to be a follower, disciple and minister in the Name of Jesus Christ:
"You cannot do this in the Name of Jesus because it does not fit in with how we think it should be, look, see here, you do not follow us!"
[Mark 9:38-41]
"And John did answer him, saying, 'Teacher, we saw a certain one in thy name casting out demons, who doth not follow us, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow us.'
And Jesus said, 'Forbid him not, for there is no one who shall do a mighty work in my name, and shall be able readily to speak evil of me: for he who is not against us is for us;
for whoever may give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because ye are Christ's, verily I say to you, he may not lose his reward"
I can also see how the simple Jesus begins to get lost in the build up of religious legalism - where the criteria become more important than people knowing Christ - where the whole point is missed.
I am of the opinion that no ritualistic ceremony or religious requirement or glossolalia is necessary to achieve what Christ wants from His children.
I personally believe that what He wants is a humble, contrite and repentant heart - and when that comes through learning about Jesus Christ, the life is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and all else will follow - without the need for a ritual, as beneficial as that ritual might be.
I believe that a follower of Jesus Christ, who is willing to try and walk in His Way, who is an example for others, who tells others of his or her humble Jesus and His powerful sacrificial love, so that they can understand their God through Him - the God in Christ - and how much He loves them, so that they in turn can come to that essential state of a humble, contrite and repentant heart - I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple, and many people who would come to meet the simple Jesus are turned away by the legalistic righteousness that people attach to this...
[Luke 18:9-14]
"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:
Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people – robbers, evildoers, adulterers – or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
'But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."
'I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.' "
I believe that Jesus should be given back to humanity.
This is just my opinion
In Christ
There is nothing required to know the love of God. Even unbelievers can know His love, as the rain falls upon the just and the unjust.
Discipleship however, is something else entirely. I wonder that the same apostles who wrote the scriptures that we quote from when making out various theological points, are somehow characterized as having been in the dark about baptism- or anything else for that matter.
Did the apostles build up a ritualistic need for baptism? Of course not. They were disciple following their Lord's command.
To quote from Paul to deny his teaching and practice in another part of the scripture seems strange to me. It is exegetically futile.
Who decides? Which of their actions were enlightened, which were not.
Acts 2:37 "They were pierced to the heart and said, "Men and brethren, What must we do?" Peter replied,
"Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit, for the promise is to you and your children and all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord shall call to Himself."
Peter and Paul ministered in exactly the same way- as they received from their Lord and Master.
Which part of Luke's Acts of the Apostles was not meant to be taken seriously, since these disciples, these apostles- were really in the dark about these deeper truths we espouse from their writings?
Well, at this point I have fully expressed my opinions on it, but I do not think that it is possible to have it both ways.
Grace and peace to all :o)
Dear EW, nobody is saying that the apostles were in the dark about baptism. I understand what you are saying and can see why you say it is all necessary to be a disciple of Christ. With respect, I think this is overshadowing the important thing that God wants from His child...
Quote from: eaglesway on June 11, 2015, 04:16:48 AM
There is nothing required to know the love of God. Even unbelievers can know His love, as the rain falls upon the just and the unjust.
With respect EW, this is not what I said was required as it misses out the heart of the matter that I referred to, which is the all-important transforming power of true repentance that enables ther fashioning of one into the likeness of Christ...
Quote from: lastpost
I personally believe that what He wants is a humble, contrite and repentant heart - and when that comes through learning about Jesus Christ, the life is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and all else will follow - without the need for a ritual, as beneficial as that ritual might be.
I believe that a follower of Jesus Christ, who is willing to try and walk in His Way, who is an example for others, who tells others of his or her humble Jesus and His powerful sacrificial love, so that they can understand their God through Him - the God in Christ - and how much He loves them, so that they in turn can come to that essential state of a humble, contrite and repentant heart - I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple, and many people who would come to meet the simple Jesus are turned away by the legalistic righteousness that people attach to this.
Peace in Change
Hi lastpost,
This thread was on baptism. I agree there are much more important things than baptism., but this is what the thread is on. If we are going to speak about the topic, lets do so as we have been.
The all important foundation of repentence is not at issue in this particular thread.
Also, if you will, please refrain from trying to interpret for me what others are saying for me :o)
I ma perfectly capable of that.
My opinion- and thats all it is, in the context of this thread- is that making baptism an optional experience, implies that the apostles did not know what they were doing. My reasoning for this is simple.
It was the apostles through whom Jesus sent forth the gospel. baptism was their practice. I am simply trying to demontrate from the scriptures that baptism in water was important then. My direct implication is therefore it is also important now, because nothing has changed in the covenant since then.
Sinced this thread is about baptism, specifically- and your reply to me was that some people need to build up a ritual in order to feel they are pleasing God. Naturally, baptism being the subject of the thread, i would assume you are referring to baptism.
If that was not what you meant, please clarify.
Hi EW,
I do apologise if I have misinterpreted what you have been saying, which is essentially that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, one must also be practising water baptism - and I fully understand why you and many others might see it that way...
"Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be"
I carry out water baptism in our little chapel if asked, not often. But the point I am making is that, in my opinion, a disciple of Jesus Christ does not have to have been water baptised in order to tell of the Saviour to another person to come to the essential requirement that God wants from His child - the all-important thing - that allows that child to come to a realisation of his sin, to come to repentance, and be brought into a permanent loving relationship with God through Christ - hence: "I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple" all rolled into one without the need for water baptism. I do not believe that the Lord would turn around and say this does not count because there has been no water baptism.
Peace in Christ.
Quote from: lastpost on June 11, 2015, 09:42:27 AM
Hi EW,
I do apologise if I have misinterpreted what you have been saying, which is essentially that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, one must also be practising water baptism - and I fully understand why you and many others might see it that way...
"Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be"
I carry out water baptism in our little chapel if asked, not often. But the point I am making is that, in my opinion, a disciple of Jesus Christ does not have to have been water baptised in order to tell of the Saviour to another person to come to the essential requirement that God wants from His child - the all-important thing - that allows that child to come to a realisation of his sin, to come to repentance, and be brought into a permanent loving relationship with God through Christ - hence: "I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple" all rolled into one without the need for water baptism. I do not believe that the Lord would turn around and say this does not count because there has been no water baptism.
Peace in Christ.
Coming late to the conversation, I see that you havent readmy posts thoroughly, and I understand that, its been a long thread :o).
I have repeatedly said that baptism is for the benefit of the saint, not a law.
What I said about discipleship is simply, boiled down to it, "Disciples obey" and there is certainly no reason that a disiple would refuse baptism. I realize that this scenario, "What is someone dies before they are baptized" causes some concern for some, but it shouldnt, because baptism is a benefit to the living, in their walk- it is not an law over which someone would be condemned under any circumstance.
Simply, again, all I am saying is there is a benefit from baptism beyond just ritual, and it is still in effect under the new covenant, as a blessing to believers that has efficacy. To refuse it makes no sense.
I will say, that a disciple is obedient to their master, and as I see it, the apostles were being obedient in regard to ministering baptism- not being religious. Therefore, in my opinion there is a loss, in a real spiritual measure- of the benefit which baptism provides for anyone who would, for whatever reason, refuse to be baptized The benfit relates to healing and deliverance, which some disciples may be suffering from the lack of a proper baptism , which is my reason for continuing to discuss the issue.
Hi EW,
Forgive me but when people tell me my relationship with my Master is not as "correct" as tbeir relationship because of how they interpret scriptures, I tend to look to Jesus and shrug, then see the righteous tither, so I choose to obey Him.
The wonderful benefit of water baptism is there but I think it is more harmful to imply a loss to a person's soul through failure to undergo water baptism than to partake in it.
This is just my opinion as I wander around collecting rubbish for the next 7 hours.
Peace in Him,
Tony
Concerning Mark 16, it seems to me that believing and not getting immersed is not even in the flow of thought. In other words, it appears as though it was assumed that one who believed would, under normal conditions, have been immersed in water.
It appears as though, at least back at that time, part of the good news being preached included something concerning water immersion (see Acts 8 as but one example).
Unlike today where it is more of an event that one waits for after believing...back then it appears to be tied very closely to the timing when one believed.
So one who heard the good news and believed it would necessarily have expected to be immersed in water. (It is what the Ethiopian believer expected, as an example)
Notice a similar correlation between the words of Yeshua:
and there is to be heralded in His name repentance for the pardon of sins, to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
(Luk 24:47)
and the words of Peter:
Now Peter is averring to them, "Repent and be baptized each of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the pardon of your sins, and you shall be obtaining the gratuity of the holy spirit.
(Act 2:38)
Notice once again that immersion is not an added on thing one must do for the pardon of their sins (otherwise Yeshua would have spoken of it here), but was understood to be a part of what they would have done as a result of repenting (which is why Peter included it)...it was actually the repentance that was for the pardon of sin, not immersion.
All this to say...
It is not that if one believes and for whatever reason does not get immersed before they die, that they are condemned, but rather...
If one does not believe, they are condemned...no mention made here of immersion, simply because if one does not believe they will not be immersed.
I believe if immersion was indeed something separate that had to be done in order to be saved from sin, Yeshua would have said something more like...
'He who does not believe or is not immersed will be condemned.'
If I say, 'He who desires a juicy steak and picks up his fork and knife will be satisfied, but he who does not desire a juicy steak will starve', the picking up of a fork and knife is simply understood to be part of what naturally would follow someone's desire for a steak. It would not be seen as something separate that is disconnected from the desire for the steak, because one would not pick up a fork and knife if they did not have that desire.
Ronen
Yep, another example of faith without works is dead. Many seem to think baptism is an optional Christian thing. In reality baptism/purification/mikvah was and still is part of Jewish culture. The first and last occurrences in the Bible (I know of) are Gen 1:10 an Rev 21:8.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2015, 03:07:57 PM
Yep, another example of faith without works is dead. Many seem to think baptism is an optional Christian thing. In reality baptism/purification/mikvah was and still is part of Jewish culture. The first and last occurrences in the Bible (I know of) are Gen 1:10 an Rev 21:8.
Yup, we can bring it back to Judaic law. Should we? Should gentiles bring it back to Judaic law?
I say in no way. The problem is that Christianity is steeped in Jewish culture. It is offensive for me to say, in no way must we follow Judaic law. It is the sword that Jesus brought with the new heaven and earth. Baptism for the Christian is spirit and truth. Constantly we are dragged back to Judaism by well meaning individuals.
:hidebehindthecouch:
Quote from: ed on June 11, 2015, 03:19:42 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2015, 03:07:57 PM
Yep, another example of faith without works is dead. Many seem to think baptism is an optional Christian thing. In reality baptism/purification/mikvah was and still is part of Jewish culture. The first and last occurrences in the Bible (I know of) are Gen 1:10 an Rev 21:8.
Yup, we can bring it back to Judaic law. Should we? Should gentiles bring it back to Judaic law?
I say in no way.
I say that unBiblical selective reading.
QuoteThe problem is that Christianity is steeped in Jewish culture. It is offensive for me to say, in no way must we follow Judaic law. It is the sword that Jesus brought with the new heaven and earth. Baptism for the Christian is spirit and truth.
No. That forcing pagan/Greek thought into the Bible. Again selective reading.
QuoteConstantly we are dragged back to Judaism by well meaning individuals.
Constantly we are dragged back to paganism by well meaning individuals.
Like it or not the whole Bible teaches Judadism. Jesus practiced it. The fact that Jews messed up (with their interpretations) doesn't mean Judasim is flawed. It just means... well... their interpretation was/is flawed. When a law is misunderstood the misunderstanding must be removed, not the law itself.
I came not to destroy the law....
Friends, what I found personally was that by surrendering to God let me find the Pearl of great price. One sells all to buy it after a solitary time seeking.
One does not abandon culture, one just sees that loving God and ones neighbour overrules all else which is no longer binding.
Jesus Christ has become everything and all else is sold.
Peace in our time
I think the confusion is all about misplacing that which is for the Jews with the nations who aren't subject to Jewish law or culture despite the fact that some early proselytes probably were beginning with Cornelius who obviously received the spirit before water baptism I'd say to begin to teach the Jews that the nations would also be saved even though they didn't accept the fact easily. I've said before, and I still think the fulfillment of the promised kingdom of the heavens in Israel, which water baptism and repentance are the means of entry, has been paused until all those chosen are called out of the nations to be in the body of Christ, which is achieved through baptism of holy spirit through Christ himself. Despite the idea of two evangels being opposed on the forum, I still see that in scripture because I think the one evangel believed to be operating today in the church is the very same distorted evangel Paul warned against and even cursed in Galatians. I think there's a reason, Jesus himself said he was only commissioned to the house of Israel, and he told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations, but the risen Christ commissioned Paul outside Israel for the eonian celestial destiny of the body of Christ. I think that's the reason Paul distinguished the two evangels as the circumcision and uncircumcision. It's futile to discuss this though with those who believe there is one evangel, and the church is spiritual Israel. We of the nations do not belong to the house of Israel even though, in spirit, we're a joint body with the Jewish believers according to what Paul wrote in Ephesians, but, even though we are one in spirit, I believe God plans to use the Jewish people to evangelize the nations on earth in the coming eon while those of us in the body of Christ will have been snatched away to minister in the celestial realm. I think that is the purpose of the two evangels. I don't think the fact that there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, and male or female in Christ Jesus negates God's plan to operate two methods of ministering to earth and the celestials in the future. We're all one in spirit, but we'll be in two different places in the day of the Lord in the coming eon one in fleshly bodies that have been spiritually regenerated and one in spiritual bodies that are a new creation.
See the attachments for some information on the subject.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Ronen, I think immersion in water is an interpretation that you are placing on the Mark 16 text. Jesus didn't actually say "in water." Plus he refers to the gifts of the spirit directly afterward. He also said the those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. The baptism that Peter says saves us is a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: WhiteWings on June 11, 2015, 03:54:15 PM
I say that unBiblical selective reading.
Constantly we are dragged back to paganism by well meaning individuals.
Like it or not the whole Bible teaches Judadism. Jesus practiced it. The fact that Jews messed up (with their interpretations) doesn't mean Judasim is flawed. It just means... well... their interpretation was/is flawed. When a law is misunderstood the misunderstanding must be removed, not the law itself.
I came not to destroy the law....
Peace to WhiteWings,
I have a certain way of arguing the point with the 119 ministries..........it is a Judiazed Christian cult. I have learned a lot from arguing with them.
I won't do it here. Google 119 ministries and you will see where I am coming from on this.
Anyhows, I bow out of such a debate here.
Peace.
Quote from: lastpost on June 11, 2015, 05:15:31 PM
Friends, what I found personally was that by surrendering to God let me find the Pearl of great price. One sells all to buy it after a solitary time seeking.
One does not abandon culture, one just sees that loving God and ones neighbour overrules all else which is no longer binding.
Jesus Christ has become everything and all else is sold.
Peace in our time
:iagree:
Quote from: WhiteWingsYep, another example of faith without works is dead.
Except that when James said that, his context was loving thy neighbor not water baptism, which goes along with what John said are Christ's commandments: "believe in Jesus and love eachother."
Those who love have fulfilled the whole law which is why the Gentile non-circumcision is counted as circumcision when they love (Romans 2).
If this is going to a place where we are saying that people who do not believe in water baptism have dead faith, I strongly disagree, because then we are saying that water baptism is necessary for justification.
Quote from: Seth on June 11, 2015, 05:33:48 PM
Ronen, I think immersion in water is an interpretation that you are placing on the Mark 16 text. Jesus didn't actually say "in water." Plus he refers to the gifts of the spirit directly afterward. He also said the those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. The baptism that Peter says saves us is a clean conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Shalom Seth,
Yes, it is definitely an interpretation (what I would call a Midrash), one that comes (for me) from an examination of the continuous story found in the what we find happening in the book of acts. Such was always seen as a sign of something starting fresh, a birth into a new life. It did not have its origin in Judaism, but preceeded even the creation of man.
The text does indeed say those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. The text of course goes on to say that those who do not believe will be condemned. The word 'water' is not in the text, and so we can look for other clues to see whether water was understood or not. One such clue that I look at is who is initiating the act? In Matthew's account, it is disciples who were to immerse new disciples, so this clues me in that this is a physical immersion with water (by looking at Acts).
Mark records Yeshua as a parallel to Matthew's account. Here they are together:
Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,
(Mat 28:19)
"Go into all the world; herald the evangel to the entire creation. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, yet he who disbelieves shall be condemned.
(Mar 16:15-16)
How did the apostles understand this? The book of Acts (in my understanding) shows that they took this to be water immersion. Acts 8 is the clearest example of this.
I understand Peter to be drawing on that same framework, but showing that it is not the actual immersion in physical water that does anything, but what it represents. In comparing immersion to the flood, he calls it a tuwpsa (טופסא), which is a physical mold. This strongly speaks to me in the clearest of terms that this is a water immersion, not a spiritual one. In every case where this word is used, it is always a tangible, physical example:
John 13:15 - ܗܳܢܳܐ ܓ݁ܶܝܪ
ܛܽܘܦ݂ܣܳܐ ܝܶܗܒ݁ܶܬ݂ ܠܟ݂ܽܘܢ ܕ݁ܰܐܝܟ݁ܰܢܳܐ ܕ݁ܶܐܢܳܐ ܥܶܒ݂ܕ݁ܶܬ݂ ܠܟ݂ܽܘܢ ܐܳܦ݂ ܐܰܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܬ݁ܶܥܒ݁ܕ݂ܽܘܢ ܀
1Corinthians 10:6 - ܗܳܠܶܝܢ ܕ݁ܶܝܢ
ܛܽܘܦ݂ܣܳܐ ܠܰܢ ܗ݈ܽܘ ܗܘܰܘ ܕ݁ܠܳܐ ܗܘܰܝܢ ܪܳܓ݁ܺܝܢ ܒ݁ܺܝܫܳܬ݂ܳܐ ܐܰܝܟ݁ܰܢܳܐ ܕ݁ܗܶܢܽܘܢ ܪܰܓ݂ܘ ܀
2Thessalonians 3:9 - ܠܳܐ ܗ݈ܘܳܐ ܡܶܛܽܠ ܕ݁ܠܳܐ ܫܰܠܺܝܛ ܠܰܢ ܐܶܠܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܒ݂ܢܰܦ݂ܫܰܢ ܢܶܬ݁ܶܠ ܠܟ݂ܽܘܢ
ܛܽܘܦ݂ܣܳܐ ܕ݁ܒ݂ܰܢ ܬ݁ܶܬ݁ܕ݁ܰܡܽܘܢ ܀
1Peter 2:21 - ܠܗܳܕ݂ܶܐ ܓ݁ܶܝܪ ܐܶܬ݂ܩܪܺܝܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܕ݁ܳܐܦ݂ ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ ܡܺܝܬ݂ ܚܠܳܦ݂ܰܝܢ ܘܰܫܒ݂ܰܩ ܠܰܢ ܗܳܢܳܐ
ܛܽܘܦ݂ܣܳܐ ܕ݁ܰܐܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܒ݁ܥܶܩܒ݂ܳܬ݂ܶܗ ܬ݁ܗܰܠܟ݂ܽܘܢ ܀
1Peter 3:21 - ܕ݁ܳܐܦ݂ ܐܰܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܒ݁ܶܗ ܒ݁ܗܰܘ
ܛܽܘܦ݂ܣܳܐ ܚܳܝܶܝܢ ܐܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܒ݁ܡܰܥܡܽܘܕ݂ܺܝܬ݂ܳܐ ܠܰܘ ܟ݁ܰܕ݂ ܦ݁ܰܓ݂ܪܳܐ ܡܫܺܝܓ݂ܺܝܢ ܐܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܡܶܢ ܨܳܐܬ݂ܳܐ ܐܶܠܳܐ ܟ݁ܰܕ݂ ܡܰܘܕ݁ܶܝܢ ܐܢ݈ܬ݁ܽܘܢ ܒ݁ܰܐܠܳܗܳܐ ܒ݁ܬ݂ܺܐܪܬ݁ܳܐ ܕ݁ܟ݂ܺܝܬ݂ܳܐ ܘܒ݂ܰܩܝܳܡܬ݁ܶܗ ܕ݁ܝܶܫܽܘܥ ܡܫܺܝܚܳܐ
It could very well be that in Mark's version Yeshua is not referring to physical water immersion, but without being able to specifically ask him ourselves, we are left to think on and discuss our various thoughts on this. :)
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryflShalom Seth,
Yes, it is definitely an interpretation (what I would call a Midrash), one that comes (for me) from an examination of the continuous story found in the what we find happening in the book of acts. Such was always seen as a sign of something starting fresh, a birth into a new life. It did not have its origin in Judaism, but preceeded even the creation of man.
So, a couple things to note here.
"Such was always seen as a sign..."
Yes I agree, but note that the book of Acts contains a fulfillment of that sign.
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.Now, that's in the first verses of Acts, so if I am going to consider that book, I will also be taking that into account contextually as well.
Quote from: gregoryfl
The text does indeed say those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. The text of course goes on to say that those who do not believe will be condemned. The word 'water' is not in the text, and so we can look for other clues to see whether water was understood or not. One such clue that I look at is who is initiating the act? In Matthew's account, it is disciples who were to immerse new disciples, so this clues me in that this is a physical immersion with water (by looking at Acts).
Given your comments above, you seem to be saying that water baptism saves because of how you read context in Acts. Well, there's not only
Acts 1:5 to consider about that, but
ALL the rest of the New Testament books, such as in Peter when he defines "baptism doth save" as a clean conscience
through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I don't consider physical water to be the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but I do consider "you will be baptized with the holy Spirit not many days hence" to be a saving kind of baptism by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I am using context to come to that conclusion.
Again, as Paul said:
"You were SAVED (baptism doth save) not by your works of righteousness but by the washing and regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)So when I see Mark 16:16. I take not just the book of Acts into consideration but ALL the other New Testament books as well.
QuoteGoing, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,
(Mat 28:19)
"Go into all the world; herald the evangel to the entire creation. He who believes and is baptized shall be saved, yet he who disbelieves shall be condemned.
(Mar 16:15-16)
How did the apostles understand this? The book of Acts (in my understanding) shows that they took this to be water immersion.
Again, let's not just take one book of the Bible as the definining context (although Acts 5:1 does contain a powerful indication of how they might have understood Mark 16:16). Let's look at all the books of the New Testament.
Yes, that is a great idea Seth. We can do that, but I would wish to do so both forward and backward (as you know, I believe water baptism to be a continuation physically of what took place before, although with a much deeper and significant meaning).
I do not believe baptism saves, not at all, but to try and explain why would be difficult for me to do in a way that would be easily seen. The example I gave of desiring and using utensils is probably not very clear, but I will try and think of a better, more understandable one. I believe that by comparing the two clauses in Mark 16, it can be seen that it is only (in this context) by belief that one is saved (the immersion being simply an understood tag along, so to speak...I struggle to try to put it into words, sorry brother).
I also agree that Peter clearly refers to the resurrection as the basis of that clear conscience, not physical immersion. I believe that is the reason he explained himself here, since the reader might mistakenly think that when he compared the flood to the physical model of water immersion, that he was equating the physical act itself with salvation.
Seth, I noticed that you quote the book of Acts as the fulfillment of the sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Yet, the apostles continued to baptize. Why?
As a matter of fact, AFTER that sign was fulfilled on Pentecost, the first address that Peter gives is "Repent, and leat everyone of you be baptized for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
All throughout the book of Acts- they continue to be baptized in water AND receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Does anybody really think they were putting the saints under law?
Quote from: EagleswaySeth, I noticed that you quote the book of Acts as the fulfillment of the sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Yet, the apostles continued to baptize. Why?
I explained earlier my view on that. I see water baptism like how Paul wanted marriages to reflect the relationship between Christ and his church, because we can't see Christ as he is invisible so the visible things can reflect the invisible things. I see it the same way in how Christ broke bread and wine and said do this in remembrance of me. So, I do see water baptism being passed down as a tradition, and that is why I have been telling you in our conversations that I am not against water baptism or people shouldn't do it, or that it has no value.
Quote from: EagleswayDoes anybody really think they were putting the saints under law?
Certainly not. Although, where WhiteWings is concerned and his misattribution of water baptism to James 2, yes I do believe that approaches Judaizing. He stops short of saying that those who fail to practice water baptism have dead faith because works are lacking, but the logic necessarily follows from his statements, and that is where I have a strong disagreement considering the kind of works that James was talking about.
Quote from: Seth on June 11, 2015, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: gregoryflShalom Seth,
Yes, it is definitely an interpretation (what I would call a Midrash), one that comes (for me) from an examination of the continuous story found in the what we find happening in the book of acts. Such was always seen as a sign of something starting fresh, a birth into a new life. It did not have its origin in Judaism, but preceeded even the creation of man.
So, a couple things to note here.
"Such was always seen as a sign..."
Yes I agree, but note that the book of Acts contains a fulfillment of that sign.
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Now, that's in the first verses of Acts, so if I am going to consider that book, I will also be taking that into account contextually as well.
I agree. Contextually, this is clearly, to me, a spiritual immersion in the set apart Spirit, and is not referring to a physical immersion in water. I see the fulfillment of this in Acts 2:
suddenly there was a sound from heaven, as of a violent wind; and the whole house where they were sitting was filled with it.
(Act 2:2)
They were immersed into the wind that filled the house where they were, and were filled with the Spirit.
So far, what I see here is that when the text speaks of baptism in the Spirit, it is referring to a spiritual baptism done by Yeshua himself, as Yochanan said:
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance; but he that comes after me is more powerful than I; whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
(Mat 3:11)
We can check all of the instances of this to see if this holds true.
Ronen
QuoteIf I say, 'He who desires a juicy steak and picks up his fork and knife will be satisfied, but he who does not desire a juicy steak will starve', the picking up of a fork and knife is simply understood to be part of what naturally would follow someone's desire for a steak. It would not be seen as something separate that is disconnected from the desire for the steak, because one would not pick up a fork and knife if they did not have that desire.
I checked with some people to make sure this example made sense, and was told I should provide a bit more explanation, which follows:
Desire = Believe
Pick up fork and knife = Baptism
Starting with the example...
Picking up a fork and knife does not equate to being satisfied. I can hold a fork and knife in my hand all day long, but if I have no desire for that steak, I will not be satisfied.
Including the phrase 'picks up his fork and knife' is an implied statement, because when someone eats a steak they use a fork and knife to do so.
It is only the desire that ends up bringing satisfaction, not the picking up of the utensils.
Likewise...
Baptism does not equate with being saved. I can be baptized all day long, but if I do not believe, I will not be saved. I know people who erroneously think that because they are baptized into the church they will end up 'in heaven', even though they do not believe. They think of baptism as a separate thing from belief that saves.
Including the phrase 'and is baptized' is an implied statement, because when someone back then went from unbelief to believing, they got baptized in water.
It is only belief that ends up bringing salvation, not baptism.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryfl on June 11, 2015, 11:46:39 PM
Baptism does not equate with being saved. I can be baptized all day long, but if I do not believe, I will not be saved. I know people who erroneously think that because they are baptized into the church they will end up 'in heaven', even though they do not believe.
It sounds like you are talking about infant baptism. I agree with you on that. Just because they got sprinkled with water doesn't mean they were saved. The baby still has a carnal mind that only the Spirit can save him from.
Protestants, however, I believe are also wrong in attributing water baptism with salvation, because they think that a single physical act of dunking themselves in water is what saves them from a future of hell torment, which always seemed pretty arbitrary to me. Now, I understand that the true enemy is in the flesh - the carnal mind. And I think if the church as a whole had a paradigm shift about salvation and the place that occurs (within them) they might have a different understanding about how baptism saves, and what kind of baptism that is.
"We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight." (Ephesians 1:4)
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
We can analyse reasons why or why not, but for me it just boils down to the examples of our Lord and the apostles. I dont think I have said at any point baptim "saves" beyond the benefit it renders to the believer- which I hav maintained is more than ritual. I havent fouund any scripture that says "be baptized if u want to"...., so i practice what the apistles practised and belive baptism is beneficial. All the hyperbole about works based salvation or batismal regeneration is inconsewuential to me. I just reccomend obebience to the word, delivered by the same men who wrote all the verses peopl are quoting, iddly enough, to refute what the writers themselves practiced and proclaimed. :)
Quote from: eaglesway on June 12, 2015, 03:05:49 AM
We can analyse reasons why or why not, but for me it just boils down to the examples of our Lord and the apostles. I dont think I have said at any point baptim "saves" beyond the benefit it renders to the believer- which I hav maintained is more than ritual. I havent fouund any scripture that says "be baptized if u want to"...., so i practice what the apistles practised and belive baptism is beneficial. All the hyperbole about works based salvation or batismal regeneration is inconsewuential to me. I just reccomend obebience to the word, delivered by the same men who wrote all the verses peopl are quoting, iddly enough, to refute what the writers themselves practiced and proclaimed. :)
I agree with EW and what he has posted earlier on this topic.
Baptism by water immersion is just too pervasive in the book of acts to dismiss it as just a ritual, some physical ordinance like foot washing or taking bread and wine..
To equate water baptism as a ritual such as foot washing and partaking of bread and wine is incorrect IMO.
In Hebrews 5 and 6 the milk doctrines include the teaching of
baptisms (PLURAL). None of these basic fundamental doctrines are to be considered irrelevant, so why should baptisms?
(CLV) Heb 5:12 For when also, because of the time, you ought to be teachers, you have need again of one to teach you what are the
rudimentary elements of the oracles of God, and you have come to have need of milk, and not of solid nourishment.
13 For everyone who is partaking of milk is untried in the word of righteousness, for he is a minor.
14 Now solid nourishment is for the mature, who, because of habit, have faculties exercised for discriminating between the ideal and the evil.
(CLV) Heb 6:1 1 Wherefore, leaving the word dealing with the
rudiments of Christ, we should be brought on to maturity, (not again disrupting the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith on God,
2 of the
teaching of baptizings, besides the imposition of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and of judgment eonian).
3 And this will we be doing, that is, if God may be permitting.
Act_22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
I suppose this is a matter that will continue to be debated, and will not be fully agreed upon by all of us.
I like what Roesred posted earlier:
from rosered post 36 is so true :
I do not see any divisions , just layers of TRUTH in everyone discussing the subject of baptism and its meaning to them personally
I agree that the doctrine of baptism is a milk teaching. I just disagree that it MUST be referring to water. I believe there are legitimate reasons to disagree with that.
For example:
Act_22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Now, you may believe that physical water washes away your sins, but I don't. Paul didn't teach that our sins are actually washed away by water, but he said that we are saved and washed clean by the Holy Spirit ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"). I do see that water baptism is a tradition they took part in, but that doesn't mean I believe that all cases of the word "baptism" are automatically referring to water.
"Now in those days, coming along is John the baptist, heralding in the wilderness of Judea, saying: 'Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!'" (Matthew 3:1,2)
"For I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance, yet He Who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire." (Matthew 3:11)
"Thenceforth begins Jesus to be heralding and saying, 'Repent! for near is the kingdom of the heavens!'" (Matthew 4:17)
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill. For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring. Whosoever, then, should be annulling one of the least of these precepts, and should be teaching men thus, the least in the kingdom of the heavens shall he be called. Yet whoever should be doing and teaching them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matthew 5:17-19)
It seems evident from those verses that water baptism for repentance and the law are associated with the kingdom of the heavens, which I believe is the earthly kingdom in Israel promised to the Jews that will happen in the coming eon when Christ returns and rules it.
I don't plan on being there much, if we in the body of Christ visit it at all, because I think we'll be ministering in the celestial realm during eonian life, and we've been baptized in holy spirit by Christ himself even if we haven't been baptized in water at some point in our life when were following church doctrine.
"And lo! one coming to Him said, "Teacher, what good shall I be doing that I should be having life eonian?" Yet He said to him, "Why are you asking Me concerning good? One is good. Yet if you are wanting to be entering into life, keep the precepts." He is saying to Him, "Which?" Now Jesus said, "These: 'You shall not be murdering.' 'You shall not be committing adultery.' 'You shall not be stealing.' 'You shall not be testifying falsely.' 'Be honoring father and mother,' and 'You shall be loving your associate as yourself.'" The youth is saying to Him, "These all I maintain. In what am I still deficient?" Jesus averred to him, "If you are wanting to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and be giving to the poor, and you will be having treasure in the heavens. And hither! Follow Me."" (Matthew 19:16-21)
I wonder how many of you here have actually tried that. Jesus said we should do it. So why haven't we all done that? Years ago I actually did give away all my possessions to the poor, but it's a hard way to live. Now I just try to only own what is necessary to have a more comfortable life. And I don't necessarily think what Jesus said in those verses or everything Jesus and the twelve apostles said applies to me anyway. I think there's a reason Jesus told the twelve to not even go on a road of the nations but only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and he said he was only commissioned to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 10:5,6; 15:24) I think Jesus was preaching to his people, the Jews, before he was crucified, and I think there's a reason he didn't want to bless the nations until after he was risen. Then the Jews didn't want to accept that when the first sign of it came to be with Peter and Cornelius, and they tried to kill Paul for it later because he was teaching that the chosen of the nations are saved in grace through faith apart from law.
"Endeavor to present yourself to God qualified, an unashamed worker, correctly cutting the word of truth." (2 Timothy 2:15)
The information on this webpage is opposed on the forum, but I'm providing the link because it's where the following quote is. http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/CorrectlyCutting.html
"There is a good rule to follow for finding out what a text or a section or a chapter or a book means. It is attributed to both Miles Coverdale and John Wycliffe. It is worth knowing and should be copied into one's copy of the Bible for constant reference and for constant application to all studies made of the Sacred Scriptures. Here it is:"
"THE GOLDEN RULE OF SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATION"
"It shall greatly helpe ye to understand Scripture,
if thou mark not only what is spoken or wrytten,
but of whom, and to whom, with what words,
at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances,
considering what goeth before and what followeth after."
The point is, as I've said before, I don't believe everything in scripture applies to everybody. I think all scripture is inspired and for us, but not all is about us. That's why I don't think water baptism is a necessary ritual for believers today. I think it will be practiced again in the coming eon in the kingdom of the heavens in Israel though, which is for the Jewish people.
What exactly did Jesus mean when he said in the scripture quoted above? "Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring." Some may think that means the law has been fulfilled in his death and resurrection, and some may think the law is still in effect for the Jewish people and will be in the coming eon in the kingdom of the heavens in Israel. Some think the church has replaced Israel, and only church doctrine is to be followed now, which has cherry picked a few of the 613 commandments of the law. I personally agree with Paul when he said:
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)
And when he said:
"In Whom you also--on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation--in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:13)
I see that the PDF files I posted earlier in the thread pertaining to water baptism aren't being downloaded. So here's one of the articles copied and pasted for those who can't access PDF files. A link to the URsearch program and some newer issues of the magazine in PDF files can be found here. http://concordant.org/ur/index.html
V11P2
p197ONE BAPTISM
PERFECTION
WHO shall describe the glories of the Ephesian letter? We are taken back before the entrance of evil and behold ourselves in His purposes in Christ. We are taken and seated in the very heavens in Christ. But, though the earth is taken from beneath our feet in this twofold sense, yet in Him we find a firmer footing than ever this earth can give.
But such abundant grace cannot be contained in Israel's narrow pale. They were nigh by virtue of the covenant blood. Such nearness was but distance compared with the nearness now secured by the blood of Christ. The means by which they drew near—the court, the altar, the laver, the holy place, the vail—all these are now seen to be but barriers to their free approach.
Now these are all removed. The defilement of the flesh might keep even an Israelite outside the camp in the days of old; but now the blood of Christ yields to no fleshly disability, and avails for all—for those afar off as well as those that were nigh. The nations have an equal share with Israel in this stupendous blessing.
The blood of Christ alone, unaided, without escort or association, without accessory or adjunct of any kind, brushing aside the embarrassment and blockade of fleshly rites, in the fresh and unsupported vigor and power of its solitary majesty—the blood of Christ alone is the champion of the sinner; that, single-handed, clears a passage to the very throne of God.
p198
One Baptism in Spirit, Now
But is baptism brushed aside? Is it included in the abolished rites?
Among the unities of the fourth chapter are: "One Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Eph.4:5).
Though there be lords many, for us there is but one Lord.
In previous dispensations, as well as in a future day, varieties of faith obtain. Favor is shown to various classes according to their relationship to Israel. In the Pentecostal era the faith for Israel was far more glorious than that for the Samaritans, while the nations were but guests at Israel's board. Now they are no longer guests and sojourners, but fellow citizens of the saints, and members of God's family. Now there is one faith for all; not Israel first, not the nations first; but all are received on equal gracious terms.
As there is but one faith now, so also there is but one baptism.
We have seen how the ministry of our Lord, and, that of John were characterized by one baptism—that in water. John had borne record concerning the Master: "I, indeed, am baptizing you in water for repentance: yet He who is coming after me is stronger than I, Whose sandals I am not competent to bear. He it is Who will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire" (Matt.3:11). So the Master, upon His ascension, bears witness to John: "John indeed baptizes in water, yet you shall be baptized in holy spirit not many days hence."
So that from Pentecost onward two baptisms obtained. Water baptism was accompanied by spirit baptism.
In the administration of the evangel of God among the nations by Paul these two continued, but water baptism takes a secondary place, while the baptism of the spirit is the portion of all.
Now that there is a return to one baptism the question remains: "Is it water, or, Is it spirit?"
The epistle itself gives answer: "when believing, also,
p199
One Baptism in Spirit, Now
you were sealed with the holy spirit of promise" (Eph.1:13). This alone entitled them to the spiritual blessings which they had in the heavenly regions.
By one spirit they were all baptized into one body. Without that baptism there could never be the one body. If the one body does not exist, there is no body of Christ, no ecclesia, and our highest blessings as His members are annulled.
It is by this spirit that we all have access into God's presence, and are united one to another. This unity of the spirit is one of the characteristic truths of this secret economy. It is vital.
So then, the baptism of spirit remains.
As there is but one baptism, that in water disappears. If we take Ephesians as the text book, then Philippians furnishes us with examples, and Colossians with review.
In Philippians, we see the apostle's own course in the things of flesh. Precious as they once appeared, he now counts them but fit for curs. As he sees those who call themselves the "Circumcision," staking all upon a mere mutilation of their flesh, he sounds the alarm: "Beware of the maimcision, for we are the circumcision who are offering divine service to God in spirit, and are glorying in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in flesh" (Phil.3:2,3). He weeps as he warns them once more of the enemies of the cross of Christ "who are disposed to the things of earth" (Phil.3:18,19). It is hard to exclude baptism in water from these "earthly things." Once, like circumcision, it was necessary for Divine blessing, but now both have been fulfilled in His cross.
In Colossians, baptism itself is taken up in conjunction with circumcision.
In the days when Jehovah taught His people how to draw nigh to Him, what was the requisite for approach? The uncircumcised could not draw nigh at all. Circumcision was the prime factor in seeking His presence and blessing.
p200
The Two Essentials: Circumcision and Baptism
But a nearer approach required still more. The circumcised Israelite could not even reach the laver. A circumcised priest could not go beyond the laver without being first baptized in its water.
Circumcision and baptism, then, constituted the Israelite's fitness to approach a veiled God.
And they are still necessary. They are essential. No one is properly furnished for His presence and blessing unless first he is circumcised and baptized.
In this light we read that we "are complete in Him...in Whom we were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands in the stripping off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ" (Col.2:10).
Here is circumcision indeed; though "made without hands" though accomplished on the cross apart from us altogether, it is the only real, the only true circumcision. The sons of Jacob were not circumcised. We are. They only shadowed it. We have the substance.
Let no one say that circumcision is obsolete. It is a present, practical, powerful truth. It is, however, but part of the truth. It leaves Christ on the cross, lifeless.
So the apostle goes on to say: "Being buried together with Him in baptism, in Whom you were roused together, also, through faith in the operation of God, Who rouses Him from among the dead" (Col.2:12).
Christ is risen! And we are risen in Him! Here is cleansing! Here is baptism!
By the power of His spirit we enter into the blessed potent truth that we have already been baptized. And such a baptism as the sons of Israel never knew. By Him we have not only died, but have also been buried and raised from the grave—in Him. Not from "a watery grave by the strong arm of the baptizer" but by an Almighty arm, "through faith in the operation of God, circumcision, rouses Him from among the dead."
Just as we are not circumcised in flesh, but in spirit, so
p201
The Two Essentials: Circumcision and Baptism
also with baptism. His baptism, just as His circumcision, we reckon as our own. He was buried; so were we. He arose; we too are risen.
As we think of this solemn glorious truth the warning still rings in our ears: "BEWARE! THAT NO ONE SHALL BE DESPOILING YOU...IN ACCORD WITH THE ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD (the elementary religious observances) AND NOT IN ACCORD WITH CHRIST!"
O, beloved, has our God set this danger signal here for naught? How many, many, of His precious ones have passed it by unheeded! How sad to be in the toils of men when God has made us free and complete in Him!
There is danger! God has not warned us against that which has no existence, for multitudes of God's saints have gone blindly into this snare in spite of God's warning. He has delivered the writer of these pages: He alone can deliver those who bear His Divine and solemn appeal.
The exquisite joy and delicious satisfaction which is found by those who know themselves complete in Christ can only be found by heeding this Divine "BEWARE!"
By the very nature of things, circumcision, while speaking of the stripping off of flesh, gave the flesh a standing it was never entitled to. Spiritual circumcision alone really fulfills its import.
Baptism was likewise embarrassed. While it spoke of spirit and gave the flesh no place, yet, being an ordinance on the flesh, it seemed to give the flesh acceptance in His sight.
But our baptism gives flesh no place. Our cleansing is by spirit and finds a real and genuine acceptance by our God.
If I am complete in Him no fleshly rite can add to my completeness. If I do add it, then I deny that His work has fully met God's claims. I dishonor that work by subtracting from its potency; and spoil it by adding something of my own dead, putrefying flesh.
p202
Perfection in Christ
If I receive the wondrous truth then I am constrained to refuse these ordinances upon the flesh, both circumcision and baptism. I rest alone in Him in Whom I have no lack.
Complete in Christ my Saviour,
My heart is satisfied;
For He is all-sufficient,
What need for aught beside?
I was going to stay out of this , but I see many of us are seeing the same things
I just wanted to say being baptized in the ritual of water and submersion in the NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST
Is the first step being babes in Christ as to exercising the faith works , by faith in acknowledging the need for the Lord in your life and there is reward in this for obedience , This is my opinion but we find in the
scriptures we see Jesus proclaiming this as TRUTH
Matthew 10 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
Luke 12:8
"I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God.
Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Revelation 3:5
The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
When your mouth confesses I am a sinner and need Gods saving ''gift of grace '' and in your heart you know you are not ashamed to acknowledge this need and admit it , you will also subject your own body as dead to the world by being baptized [a type of death ] submersion of the old man being put to death and the new man rising up in Christ
Even JESUS Did this open act as a work of the Lord by John the Baptist as to fulfill all righteousness Being our perfect example
showing us the way when we are so young and new in the faith and following Jesus is doing exactly as HE DONE and says ,because we Love Him back because He first loved us while we were yet sinners CHRIST DIED FOR US ,,,
and I see this as the first works being done and having your first Love as pleasing Him by faith , because without faith it is impossble to please Him
REV 2
first works first love Message to the Church in Ephesus
...4But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place-- unless you repent. 6'Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
the first thing a new and baby Christian wants to do is stand up for Jesus and wield the Sword and start exposing the sins , so they can have just what you have received and it is risky business for the little ones who have only begun to crawl much less walk in the Spirit yet , they stumble , I know this from personal experience , and just cried and cried , everyone turned away , because of the harsh way I handled the WORD OF LIFE and I thought , its true Lord I will be hated by all men for your name sake , and that was my way of justifying my own error
I confess I was stepping into new territory and them words in Rev2 and 3 spoke to me , I did not want the lampstand removed from it place , that being the dark place of my own heart realizing being a babe is still very carnal and needing the milk of the word , so God was merciful and set me into the scriptures for many years searching them out and connecting them all together and yet still not seeing the BIG PICTURE the Image of Christ reflecting
in my own life yet , I believe many of us come though the same broad path and have accepted the destruction as works of our own hands
and learning to wait on the Lord was the true challenge and patience of the holy ones/saints made in His image , the born again babes in Christ start to finnish , Him being the author and finisher of our faith
and the scriptures tells us that , little ones your sins are forgiven you for His own names sake not what we have done ..
the gift of Grace is loving God as Gods grace abounds , yes the sin abounds and are errors are made, but Gods grace abounds the more ,GODS WORD IS NOT BOUND to any thing or anyone at any time .
He comes when you least expect it , usually when you have given up totally and completely and are well spent .
Love in Christ to all
Quote from: RoseredMatthew 10 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
Yes, I could see water baptism as a form of an outward expression, or demonstration, of faith. However, your use of Matthew 10:32 suggests to me that someone who does not get water baptized, for whatever reason, is failing to confess and could be denied by Christ before God? Not sure if that's what you mean. Would that mean people have to be water baptized only in public, and not in private?
In this conversation, water baptism has been connected with the James 2 teaching that works make our faith complete and how that faith without works is dead. I find that disturbing to say the least, because those are not the works James is referring to, and that could lead to all kinds of self-condemnation for those who have not been water baptized, and judgments made on their faith. Some people don't believe in it and have their reasons, even if others disagree with their reasons.
I actually think people shouldn't get baptized in water unless they are fully convinced of it. Faith is the most important thing and being water baptized only because someone else is convinced of it, without being fully convinced of it themselves, to me is acting outside of faith.
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2015, 07:53:52 PM
I agree that the doctrine of baptism is a milk teaching. I just disagree that it MUST be referring to water. I believe there are legitimate reasons to disagree with that.
For example:
Act_22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Now, you may believe that physical water washes away your sins, but I don't. Paul didn't teach that our sins are actually washed away by water, but he said that we are saved and washed clean by the Holy Spirit ("He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"). I do see that water baptism is a tradition they took part in, but that doesn't mean I believe that all cases of the word "baptism" are automatically referring to water.
I believe anyone who reads that verse as saying that baptism washes sins away is not paying attention to what the grammar (yes, grammar does have importance) is saying.
והשא מנא משתוחר אנת קום עמד ואתדכא מן חטחיך
כד קרא אנת שמא
And now, why are you waiting? Arise, be immersed, and be cleansed from your sins WHEN you call his name. (my translation)
One little Aramaic word כד (Kad), a conjunction meaning 'when', helps us see that it is not the immersion that cleanses one from sin, but rather the calling his name...
Yes, I am using the Aramaic, but even the way the Greek reads indicates basically the same thing, for it links 'washing away of sins' with 'calling on the name of the Master'. I just personally think the Aramaic makes it very clear.
Ronen
Quote from: gregoryflAnd now, why are you waiting? Arise, be immersed, and be cleansed from your sins WHEN you call his name. (my translation)
One little Aramaic word כד (Kad), a conjunction meaning 'when', helps us see that it is not the immersion that cleanses one from sin, but rather the calling his name...
It doesn't change the meaning that much to me. Another way of saying it is this: When you call on his name, you will be immersed in the Holy Spirit which regenerates and washes you clean.
Ok. I don't expect agreement.
I do agree with you on what causes us to receive a cleansing of sin, calling upon his name. I just might have another view on what baptism that scripture is referring to.
Ah. For what it is worth, the reason I see it as referencing the physical is because he is told to 'arise', which would make sense if he were to get up to be immersed in physical water. I would think he could be spiritually baptized sitting right where he was.
This will be it for me. I think I have gotten away from the intent of the original post, which I think had more to do with 'why repent' than what baptism is.
Wholeness to you my dear brother,
Ronen
In context, the word "arise" could be because Paul had some work to do after he had received his sight, not necessarily because he needed to be dunked in water:
"The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard. And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."
There's no actual indication that Paul left the house at that moment to go out to a lake. It could be Ananias just wanted to lay hands on him.
QuoteThis will be it for me. I think I have gotten away from the intent of the original post, which I think had more to do with 'why repent' than what baptism is.
I think so too :thumbsup:
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2015, 09:02:22 PM
Quote from: RoseredMatthew 10 32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.
Yes, I could see water baptism as a form of an outward expression, or demonstration, of faith. However, your use of Matthew 10:32 suggests to me that someone who does not get water baptized, for whatever reason, is failing to confess and could be denied by Christ before God? Not sure if that's what you mean. Would that mean people have to be water baptized only in public, and not in private?
In this conversation, water baptism has been connected with the James 2 teaching that works make our faith complete and how that faith without works is dead. I find that disturbing to say the least, because those are not the works James is referring to, and that could lead to all kinds of self-condemnation for those who have not been water baptized, and judgments made on their faith. Some people don't believe in it and have their reasons, even if others disagree with their reasons.
I actually think people shouldn't get baptized in water unless they are fully convinced of it. Faith is the most important thing and being water baptized only because someone else is convinced of it, without being fully convinced of it themselves, to me is acting outside of faith.
Like Ronan and you also just said Seth , lol
we are still so carnal as babes and when so carnal still we do the literal interpretation but the spiritual meaning is very much arise from the dead and Christ shall give you Light coming up rising from the dead sea [waters] as an act of obedience by faith that small mustard seed of faith to move mountains must grow first
the only ones, little ones know how to do standing naked and open , vulnerable showing their own filth of the flesh .. even the disciples were in trial period under the water baptism but learned though their experiences with Jesus before hand and Jesus said you still do not yet understand ?
and wait for the Lord to come to baptise you with HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE This being the clothing of Christ covering them as power from on High
Luke 24
Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures...48
"You are witnesses of these things. 49"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."
I thought I would provide some of my own observations about Acts 10
Acts 10
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47 "Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Well, obviously Peter knew they had already been baptized with SOMETHING. They were speaking in tongues and the gift had been given to them. Now, Peter had been struggling with the issue of Gentile and Jewish separation, before this moment he was given the symbolic vision of how all the Jews and Gentiles may now be joined together.
So, Peter says "nobody can stand in the way of being baptized in water." He literally clarifies "with water" there and who would want to forbid the Gentiles that baptism? Probably all the other Jews who had once thought like Peter, that only the Jews could be cleansed.
It might be that Peter had them taken out and water baptized as a visual demonstration to others that God has indeed cleansed the Gentiles.
We talk about two baptisms, namely with water or with Spirit.
I am not totally sure it's always one or the other in every scripture.
Like Roman 6 speaks about being baptized into Christ Jesus, into His death
For me that doesn't necesarily mean in/with the Spirit or in the water. I think maybe it just means becoming part of the Body of Christ, as to be 'in Christ' as Paul so often writes about. Also when it says being baptized 'in the name of Jesus', it actually says INTO His name, imo meaning into Who He is.
So Jesus baptizing us 'with Spirit' imo might not be the same as we being immersed into Him.
This may sound so silly , but the words are Life to those whom know this much , by understanding what they read and know already by the scriptures
I guess you could say water baptism is by faith , many of the Gentiles had a simple and child like faith /virgins and ready to receive unlike the wise old ones had been hardened by Gods own design to allow all to enter by faith believing for me the the law and prophets as the ministration of death to the old sinful self open and naked before all being a husbandman and ruler over your mind[eve] and rise to a clean conscience as to empty/ virgin mind clean swept and ready to receive the mind of Christ obedience to the LIVING GOD
as the new creature in Christ paul spoke of this in Romans 7 as to beginning a new life after His conversion , being turned around as both laws were working in his members the new heavens and wait for the new earth and being a body with good earth the meek shall inherit the earth [Matt 5 ]
only the new spiritual mind would comply with the Spiritual Law of God being Love in union
when covered in Christ , who do you see ? the old man or Christ as your Lord ?
Know no man after flesh any longer but by the new Spiritual being risen from the dead and meaningless life as in the days of our flesh desires and wills
become lesser and the new creature in Christ belongs to Christ as a son of God from the pure virgin mind as a womb , we wait on the Lord to begin a new purpose in us though the Holy Spirit baptism transforming and renewing of the mind as the seed is Christ in you Word of God /TRUTH growing by Gods grace
2Coritn 5
We are Christ's Ambassadors
...15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh,
yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come....
Its is all a progression from faith to faith and place to place as the Lord does all his works for us as we be willing to change our old ways and nature
to His new and perfect one Jesus offered to keep them and protect them but they were not willing they had to take the broad path that leads to self destruction first and it will be as it is written , , blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord , they can still enter at any time , any can come now
the FATHER has opened heaven for all to enter that will come to Christ .
peace brothers and sisters in Christ
Quote from: Abigail on June 12, 2015, 10:40:58 PM
We talk about two baptisms, namely with water or with Spirit.
I am not totally sure it's always one or the other in every scripture.
Like Roman 6 speaks about being baptized into Christ Jesus, into His death
For me that doesn't necesarily mean in/with the Spirit or in the water. I think maybe it just means becoming part of the Body of Christ, as to be 'in Christ' as Paul so often writes about. Also when it says being baptized 'in the name of Jesus', it actually says INTO His name, imo meaning into Who He is.
So Jesus baptizing us 'with Spirit' imo might not be the same as we being immersed into Him.
Paul does say,
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Quote from: Abigail on June 12, 2015, 10:40:58 PM
We talk about two baptisms, namely with water or with Spirit.
I am not totally sure it's always one or the other in every scripture.
Like Roman 6 speaks about being baptized into Christ Jesus, into His death
For me that doesn't necesarily mean in/with the Spirit or in the water. I think maybe it just means becoming part of the Body of Christ, as to be 'in Christ' as Paul so often writes about. Also when it says being baptized 'in the name of Jesus', it actually says INTO His name, imo meaning into Who He is.
So Jesus baptizing us 'with Spirit' imo might not be the same as we being immersed into Him.
I believe they both serve Gods purpose Abigail
and it is depending on
faith with hope and Love of the 3 parts to receive in fulness into ONE ,,,
first your mind must be changed by faith in the living God and beliving Jesus Christ is the son of God [repent means change your mind Paul speaks of this plainly in Romans 6 , 7 and 8
and having the mind of Christ
than our hearts hope being the Christ in you the hope of glory made alive to God by the works of the Cross in Jesus Christ as the day star rises in our hearts , this is Him being Lifted up to draw all men unto Himself the rising up into a glorious state of being Holy as we begin to understand what this really means within us .
and lastly the body itself
and this is where the LOVE comes , change your lowly bodies
PHIL 3 Citizenship in Heaven
...20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
2
1who will transform the body of our humble state i
nto conformity with the body of His glory,
by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.Love is the greatest thing of all , knowing helps bit is not perfection , love perfect bond and to know the full impact of His love for us one day it is unspeakable and full of glory........... coll3
Put on the New Self
...13bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone;
just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you. 14
Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity. 15Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.... all in ONE AND ONE IN ALL GOD IS SOOOO AWESOME !! we have faith He will do it and hope we see this and Love Him because we know he loves us and bears long with us though it all
:banana:
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2015, 10:49:49 PM
Paul does say,
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Is being baptized BY the Spirit into Christ's body (1Cor12) the same thing as 'He (Christ) will baptize you WITH the Holy Spirit'?
Acts 8:
16 He (Holy Spirit) had not yet fallen upon any of them, but they had only been
baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus
I think the context of the Corinthian verse is that we are baptized by spiritual water into the body and made to drink of the same.
Quote from: Abigail on June 12, 2015, 11:12:00 PM
Quote from: Seth on June 12, 2015, 10:49:49 PM
Paul does say,
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Is being baptized BY the Spirit into Christ's body (1Cor12) the same thing as 'He (Christ) will baptize you WITH the Holy Spirit'?
Acts 8:
16 He (Holy Spirit) had not yet fallen upon any of them, but they had only been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus
I think the answer to your question is yes. 1 Corinthians 12:13 is speaking of spirit baptism, and, in Acts 8:16, the Samaritans seem to have been baptized in water but didn't receive holy spirit until the apostles laid hands on them.
That's why spirit baptism is the "one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5) because we're baptized into the body of Christ, which is what's happening in this era of grace until all those chosen are called out of the nations.
Too bad Paul, who wrote that, didnt understand it and practised something different. :dontknow:
I do not see how the Spirt baptism can be the "one baptism" in Acts 19, Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed.
They had already believed, Why did Paul baptize them in water and lay hands on them? What difference did it make?
Using Pauls epistles to refute his practice is intellectually inconsistent.
In Hebrews 6, one of the foundation doctrines is the doctrine of "baptisms and of laying on of hands". The book of Acts was provided to provide a link between what was taught in the epistles and what was practiced by the apostles. Regardless of what one believes about the one baptism, this does not give them authority to discredit baptism in water.
Clearly there are multiple aspects of the "one baptism" or nothing makes sense because you wind up with and assumption the apostles did not understand in practise what they taught in scripture- and pitting one scripture against another.
When do you become a member of the body of Christ?
When you believe. So tell me, when is the baptism into death? When you die. When you believe. But wait, you are saying the one baptism is the Spirit baptism?
The Spirit baptism is A TESTIMONY OF WHAT HAS ALREADY TAKEN PLACE. The Spirit baptizes AFTER INITIAL SALVATION HAS ALREADY OCCURED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH in the revelation of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
So, the Spirit baptism cannot be the "one baptism"- at least not in totality.
"These three agree in one" John says, "the blood, the water and the Spiri"t.
We all agree that when a person believes they are washed in the blood, reconciled and have died and been raised in Jesus Christ.
So, the one baptism, if you want to assign "one" to any aspect of salvation would have to be repentence and faith towards God in Christ through which one becomes a believer.
Which is what I believe. But what then is this other baptism in the Spirit and why baptism in water?
It is really quite simple...."These three agree in one". By seeking to limit baptism to "a numerical one" in Eph 4 you have to deny all these other verses all over the gospels epistles and especially, Acts.
Actually, in regards to salvation, nothing is necessary but faith. Both the Spirit baptism and water baptism come after salvation and are FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE BELIEVERS WALK AND PREISTHOOD as disciples.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 03:37:11 AM
Actually, in regards to salvation, nothing is necessary but faith. Both the Spirit baptism and water baptism come after salvation and are FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE BELIEVERS WALK AND PREISTHOOD as disciples.
Salvation from what? Belief doesn't save from sin if it is alone. The Bible says we are saved by his life. Peter says baptism does save, only I don't believe he was talking about water baptism.
Belief - belief is repentence and faith, absolutley saves totally as regards eternal life and union with God. Does that mean you shouldnt get healed if you need it?
Did the Spirit baptism make them believers or was it evidence of their having already been believers?
Peter said baptism saves by the answer of a clear conscience. He is talking about the efficacy of baptism upon the believer, not teaching baptism as necessary to eternal life and union with God.
I think he is talking about what Paul says in Romans 5:10, how much more having been reconciled shall we be saved by his life.
Belief is not "his life" but a way to be connected to his life. That is how I believe baptism of the Spirit saves, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Its a fine line to draw between "believing" and "life", I think. I can see the reason for the distinction in terms of defning aspects of salvation.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
Thats pretty clear. IMO absolutley clear.
When Jesus was speaking to them about the baptism in the Holy Spirit, they were already believers, and had life aionian already as well.
The Spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ when we believe ala Romans 10, and everything that happens to us as believers is done by the Spirit. Our common salvation has many aspects, but is certainly sealed in us when we believe.
If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.....
The confession of the mouth results in salvation because it is the true testimony of the heart. Everything that happens to us as the result of faith is done by the Spirit.
I think it is an error of discernment and "knowing what Spirit we are of" to divide things up as laws, whether the baptism Jesus spoke of which occurred in Acts and continues throughout this age, or water baptism, or anything else.
Whenever a man turns to the Lord the veil is taken away. Turning towards that in which we belive is what saves- if what we believe is that Jesus Christ is Lord and God raised Him from the dead- as Lord and Savior being the natural conclusion of those words.
Life is immediate upon believing, believing being defined in those terms.
QuoteIts a fine line to draw between "believing" and "life", I think. I can see the reason for the distinction in terms of defning aspects of salvation.
John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
I do agree, that is absolutely clear. But look what he says, he who believes has eonian life. Right. That's my point. We access the spirit via faith. I don't mean to sound like I am nit picking about this. I think if we start saying that belief is life, it's like saying "HIS life" is essentially an abstract concept, rather than being the Holy Spirit.
I just see the distinction clearly in Peter when he says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." We access the resurrection of Jesus Christ through faith.
I'm just saying, I don't see any problem saying that baptism saves us if it is the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spirit DOES save us.
I actually don't think I am making a very controversial point. Even if Peter never said that baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, it's still an accurate thing to say that the Spirit has saving power. So that baptism of the Spirit has saving power. It doesn't?
I am not trying to nipick either, just discussing, really :o) The baitsm of the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke of definitely heals and delivers us. My point was that salvation is a three in one thing, blood water and Spirit- and the blood is applied at belief, at which point we are united to the body of Christ.
The way I see it the baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire Jesus spoke of is in addition to all that, and must be renewed. "Be filled with the Spirit". In Acts 4 we read where they were all again "filled with the Spirit".
I really don't kno how best to repsond to, "the Spirit has saving power doesnt it" because I had just said everything that happens to us happens by the Spirit- so I am not sure if you are asking about intial salvation or continuing salvation- so I will respond to both, just in the way of sharing my perspective.
All saving power is by the Spirit. The Spirit works to saves us in several ways- through the washing of water with the word(hearing the word of God with faith believing) through the gifts and fruit of the Spirit, and through continually renewing through prayer and study and fellowship that fulness - which allows the saving power of the Spirit to reach overcoming levels in terms of walking with Christ in His nature and His ways. Whether we lay hands on the sick, or teach the word, or minister to the poor, or castout demons, or comfort the afflicted- all is by the Spirit, but not everyone understand(imo) the renewable nature of the Holy Spirit baptism, so many walk in defeat to the enemies in their own land(faults, sins, character flaws, demonic powers, addictions).
In a much smaller way, but nevertheless signifigant way, yes, I believe baptism in water saves us, as Peter said and as Peter ministered it- as deliverance from a guilty conscience, which Paul described as burial of the body of the sins of the flesh.
But what if someone has received faith and the holy spirit and believes and they don't have a guilty conscience? I mean you do see that Peter says "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" when he says that baptism saves right? Why is it impossible that he is talking about the baptism of the Spirit in that scripture?
Because he specifically refers to salvation through water. followed by "in the same manner" baptism now also saves you(renders a delivering effect). I dont want to be too repetitive, but Peter's practice and message in Acts removes any doubt about that, for me- and is confirmed by Paul's practise as well. I mean, I think these men were IMMERSED continually in the Spirit and spoke and ministered as they were IMPELLED BY THE SPIRIT and the living word within them
At some point(imo), either we accept that there is a reason for baptism in water that motivated their faithful, consistent ministering of it and attention to it- or we acknwledge that the apostles were moving in a religious motivation that was not of importance to God.
I cannot make that acknowledgment- because I believe ESPECIALLY IN THAT TIME, in which Acts is depicting the intensity of the Spirit upon them, and the life, love, power and dynamism that was in their Acts- they were being moved in the sovereign expression of the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ in them by the Spirit- holy men moved of God IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, and IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
I believe in the apostles as the foundation stones, and see them as greater than the prophets of old, including Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, or Moses..... not because of anything within themselves, but by calling and election as the founding associates of Jesus Christ.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 05:51:32 AM
Because he specifically refers to salvation through water. followed by "in the same manner" baptism now also saves you(renders a delivering effect). I dont want to be too repetitive, but Peter's practice and message in Acts removes any doubt about that, for me- and is confirmed by Paul's practise as well. I mean, I think these men were IMMERSED continually in the Spirit and spoke and ministered as they were IMPELLED BY THE SPIRIT and the living word within them
At some point(imo), either we accept that there is a reason for baptism in water that motivated their faithful, consistent ministering of it and attention to it- or we acknwledge that the apostles were moving in a religious motivation that was not of importance to God.
I cannot make that acknowledgment- because I believe ESPECIALLY IN THAT TIME, in which Acts is depicting the intensity of the Spirit upon them, and the life, love, power and dynamism that was in their Acts- they were being moved in the sovereign expression of the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ in them by the Spirit- holy men moved of God IN THE MIND OF CHRIST, and IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
Where does it say "in the same manner?"
The word he uses is "antitupos" which means "representing by type of pattern." The word appears here too
Hebrews 9:24
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the
figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
In 1 Peter it says "like figure whereunto baptism also saves." In other words, the Noah account is a type/figure of the baptism that saves. The whole thing in context is about the Spirit:
1Peter 3
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,
but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,)
by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Just because Peter practiced water baptism doesn't mean he is talking about water baptism in that scripture. I think he is clearly speaking of the quickening Spirit then using the Noah account as a type figure of the resurrection Spirit that does save us.
My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.
He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....
It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.
IMO the flood and the burial of the "horse and rider" in the Red Sea are both typologically relevant to the grace ministered to a believer in baptism.
Asking, "What if a person has not been baptized but does not have a bad conscience" is for me, not relevant, because the horse and rider is stil riding(the carnal mind) if they do not acknowledge the efficacy of baptism. The answer of a clear conscience is a matter of understanding, even more than a matter of experience, that the word of God is faithful, and we can trust God in doing what we do not understand.
The Israelites did not know, when they stepped into the Red Sea floor and walked between the piles of water on dry ground that Pharoah would be buried there- that there captives power would be broke there. And this was not a "limitless" benefit of grace, in that they carried their captors within them and raised them up again in the golden calf they made while Moses was on the mountain. Some also later "went back" to Egypt.
That's why I say baptism provides "a measure" of grace- a part of the "start-up" kit of disciples. It is not "regenerational". Neither is it, "mere symbol".
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 06:27:49 AM
My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.
He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....
It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.
He doesn't say that baptism is a symbol, brother. He says that Noah's account corresponds as a TYPE or a FIGURE of the baptism that saves us, which is through the resurrection of the Jesus Christ.
Noah's account is a symbol of the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spriit is the resurrected life of Jesus. Like Hebrews, the earthly things are figures of the true. Jesus is the true. He is the fulfillment of the pattern.
The scripture is clear on this that those who are in Christ are free from condemnation. Nobody who has not had a water baptism should have a guilty conscious. The Spirit has freed them from sin.
Water baptism does not provide a measure of Grace. Grace comes by faith alone.
Another type relevant to baptism is the story of Naaman and Elisha,
10 Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, "Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean." 11 But Naaman was furious and went away and said, "Behold, I thought, 'He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.' 12 Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage. 13 Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, "My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?" 14 So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.
What made the water of the Jordan(typical of death, and "crossing over") important was "the word of the man of God". If the man of God had said something else(as naamun's serving girl said)- that thing would have been the method by which Naamun was cleansed, delivered, restored.
But Jesus is our "man of God". His word our "spirit of prophecy". if He institued baptism it is not by us, "Beghold, I thought". it is just the opposite, it is "the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural mind". I accepted the word of the "man of God" Jesus who transferred that word through His founding associates, the apostles, and I have been maintaining that that "wordd" is still in effect within the covenant still in effect- but only for the benefit of those to whom it was given, and not as a "law" through which to condemn anyone. Simply as a step of faith in the word of our "man of God" Jesus.
Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.
He that believes not will be condemned.
He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.
Condemned to what? Remaining in unbelief, remain in the Adamic nature. Building life in a world that is already passing away, a life of which nothing can be carried on into the aions, "Store not up for yourselves riches on earth.....Store up riches in heaven"
Building gold, silver and precious stone is for disciples. "If you abide in me and I abide in you you will bear fruit and your fruit will remain".
If Naamun had not obeyed, his only condemnation would have been remaining leprous.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 06:52:09 AM
Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.
He that believes not will be condemned.
He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.
This is why water baptism doesn't save anyone from a guilty conscience and the Spirit baptism does, because those who have believed and received baptism of the Spirit (and are in Christ) are free from guilt.
So when Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, that fits right along with how he said the disciples would be baptized in the Spirit not many days hence. Being baptized in the Spirit is the grace they access by faith alone not by any work.
We do not receive grace by water baptism but faith alone, and as far as I know, the consistent teaching in the scripture is that the Spirit is what washes away sin.
Quote from: Seth on June 13, 2015, 06:40:01 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 06:27:49 AM
My quote was from memory and innacurate word for word, but(imo) not inaccurate in meaning.
He says, actually, "Corresponding to that", baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
The KJV says, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Antpyphos, is in my opininion, is not pointing to baptism, but to the flood and what is did for Noah and his family...... He is saying that corresponding to the type we have in how Nah's ark saved them, baptism(in the same manner, my paraphrase) now saves you, and then describes how it does so....
It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol, it is saying baptism saves you in a way that corresponds to the typilogical relevance of Noah's flood.
He doesn't say that baptism is a symbol, brother. He says that Noah's account corresponds as a TYPE or a FIGURE of the baptism that saves us, which is through the resurrection of the Jesus Christ.
Noah's account is a symbol of the baptism of the Spirit, because the Spriit is the resurrected life of Jesus. Like Hebrews, the earthly things are figures of the true. Jesus is the true. He is the fulfillment of the pattern.
The scripture is clear on this that those who are in Christ are free from condemnation. Nobody who has not had a water baptism should have a guilty conscious. The Spirit has freed them from sin.
Water baptism does not provide a measure of Grace. Grace comes by faith alone.
I really wonder if you are reading my posts before you answer.
I directly said, baptism is not the sympol, the flood is the symbol. It is a picture we can look at to see how baptism heals- and ANY HEALING, ANY SALVATIO, ANY RESTORATION IS BY THE RECEIVING OF GRACE.
Faith obeys, and receives grace as the result. That is why the early Chrstians were all baptized. It is also why they confessed their faults one t another.
This is why I said before, you are still looking at salvation as an event. Grace is transmitted through many ways- and yes, they are all spring from faith.
Grace doesnt just mean "getting saved". They received more grace as they obeyed what they heard,
Romans 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,
Romans 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 12:3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
Romans 12:6 Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith;
We are born by grace through faith, then We stand in grace. It is not an event, it is a way of life, a process, a state of being, a way of giving and receiving. I wounder if you are reading my whole posts, because you seem t be coming back to intial salvation, which I have continually stated, is by believing(turning to God in faith). But grace doesnt stop their, it grows by the obedience of faith, which is how Paul describes his apostleship.The gifts we have received impart grace, by the obedience of faith.
Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"
I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.
Quote from: Seth on June 13, 2015, 07:01:41 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 06:52:09 AM
Jesus never says he that is not baptized will be condemned. He says, he that believes and is baptized shall be healed and delivered.
He that believes not will be condemned.
He does not say he that is not baptized will be condemed, only he that does not believe, because, as He said ealrier, the one who does not believe is condemned already.
This is why water baptism doesn't save anyone from a guilty conscience and the Spirit baptism does, because those who have believed and received baptism of the Spirit (and are in Christ) are free from guilt.
So when Jesus says that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, that fits right along with how he said the disciples would be baptized in the Spirit not many days hence. Being baptized in the Spirit is the grace they access by faith alone not by any work.
We do not receive grace by water baptism but faith alone, and as far as I know, the consistent teaching in the scripture is that the Spirit is what washes away sin.
The scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.
It is blood, water and Spirit from the very beginning, and continued straight through to the end.
So Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?
If John's baptism was from heaven, where was the apostles baptism from?
QuoteThis is why I said before, you are still looking at salvation as an event. Grace is transmitted through many ways- and yes, they are all spring from faith.
No I am not looking at salvation as an event. I look at salvation as HEALING, and I believe the Spirit baptism that heals us
CONTINUALLY.
Quote from: Seth on June 13, 2015, 07:06:09 AM
Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"
I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.
Ahhhh, I get it, sorry. Well, I just cant understand, looking at acts and the gospels how anyone gets anything other than baptism in water out of Peter's words, so I will leave off the discussion with you at this point, because we are not reading the same thoughts out of the scriptures to compare and evaluate and be accountable too- so any further words would be fruitless. No offense. We will have to agree to disagree.
The apostles were just being religious I guess :dontknow:
QuoteThe scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.
And I see those as having oneness in the Spirit not physical water. It says that the Spirit water and blood are in agreement, not that physical water SAVES us.
QuoteSo Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?
I answered that twice already.
QuoteIf John's baptism was from heaven, where was the apostles baptism from?
If you are talking about Luke 20, it actually doesn't give an answer, but contextually they were asking about where the authority came from for John to baptize with water. Of course, that came from God.
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 07:12:22 AM
Quote from: Seth on June 13, 2015, 07:06:09 AM
Here is what you said, "It is not saying(imo) baptism is simply a symbol,"
I was AGREEING with you. It's not saying that baptism is a symbol. It's saying that NOAH's account is a symbol of the baptism that saves, which is in my opinion the Spirit baptism.
Ahhhh, I get it, sorry. Well, I just cant understand, looking at acts and the gospels how anyone gets anything other than baptism in water out of Peter's words, so I will leave off the discussion with you at this point, because we are not reading the same thoughts out of the scriptures to compare and evaluate and be accountable too- so any further words would be fruitless. No offense. We will have to agree to disagree.
The apostles were just being religious I guess :dontknow:
I didn't say the Apostles were being religious John. C'mon.
Quote from: Seth on June 13, 2015, 07:13:28 AM
QuoteThe scripture does not teach simply that the Spirit washes away sin. It says, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience(the blood) and our bodies washed with pure water(the word) we have a new and living way(the Spirit) into the holy of holies.
And I see those as having oneness in the Spirit not physical water. It says that the Spirit water and blood are in agreement, not that physical water SAVES us.
QuoteSo Seth, let me ask you two reasonable questions, Why did the apostles baptize everyone who believed?
I answered that twice already.
QuoteIf John's baptism was from heaven, where was the apostles baptism from?
If you are talking about Luke 20, it actually doesn't give an answer, but contextually they were asking about where the authority came from for John to baptize with water. Of course, that came from God.
The answer was clearly implicated by Jesus - but lets say not.
If the authority for John's baptism came from God, where dd the authority for the apostles baptism come from?
You have not provided any reasonable hypothesis as to why the apostles baptized that I have read.
Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. You have not given me any reasonable reason to think that Peter taught water baptism saves. That's just me I guess.
I agree :o)
What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus;
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Oh precious is the flow
that washes white as snow
No other fount I know
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Amen.
Seth :thumbsup: Tom :thumbsup: :dsunny: that's my opinionated thumb :HeartThrob:
He Is Risen!
After He arose,
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Teaching them to do all that I commanded you except what I just commanded you?
I dont think so.
:
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 06:21:17 PM
After He arose,
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Teaching them to do all that I commanded you except what I just commanded you?
I dont think so.
:2thumbs: :icon_flower:
I am also persuaded ,, that after He had risen , that the many things to tell you!!, Jesus was going give them by Holy Spirit revelation of truth though their experiences :dsunny:
John16
The Holy Spirit Promised...11and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
12"
I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13"But when He,
the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative,
but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.... the ministering spirits gathered already in and of the Holy One , that are with Him and Him with us , tells me there is the power and glory being revealed
though the very same WITNESS OF TRUTH , being known to many by revelation of experiences
Romans 5 [ Therefore,]
Since we have been ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] by our faith, we have peace with God. This happened through our Lord Jesus Christ, ·who through our faith has brought us into that blessing of [L through whom we have access by faith to] God's grace ·that we now enjoy [L in which we stand/live]. And we ·are happy [rejoice; boast]
because of the hope we have ·of sharing [or of experiencing; L of] God's glory. [L Not only this, but] We also ·have joy [rejoice; boast] ·with our troubles [through suffering/trials/persecution], because we know that ·these
troubles [suffering; trials; persecution] produce ·patience [endurance]. And ·patience [endurance] produces [tested and proven] character,
and [tested and proven] character produces hope. And this hope will never ·disappoint us [let us down; or put us to shame; dishonor us; C honor and shame were among the most important values in first century culture]
, because God has ·poured out his love to fill our hearts [or flooded our hearts with his love]. He gave us his love through the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to us.
I agree with what you are saying rosered, to the extent I understand it-
Only with the exception that as the Holy Spirit increases our wisdom and revelation of hidden things He is never leaving the scriptures behind, or changing the authority under the new covenant- which was given by Jesus and transferred to the apostles.
The apostles doctrine is the highest example of new covenant truth, and actually the foundation of it. They did not arrive at it. It was given to them intact by the risen Savior. We try to interpret it, and in my case, I want to return to it, as the pure core delivered once and for all to the saints (not saying that I am there, but there I am heading without any doubt).
Quote from: eaglesway on June 13, 2015, 07:25:49 PM
I agree with what you are saying rosered, to the extent I understand it-
Only with the exception that as the Holy Spirit increases our wisdom and revelation of hidden things He is never leaving the scriptures behind, or changing the authority under the new covenant- which was given by Jesus and transferred to the apostles.
The apostles doctrine is the highest example of new covenant truth, and actually the foundation of it. They did not arrive at it. It was given to them intact by the risen Savior. We try to interpret it, and in my case, I want to return to it, as the pure core delivered once and for all to the saints (not saying that I am there, but there I am heading without any doubt).
Yes John , I agree every last one expounded on Jesus Christ testimony , for everyone 's benefit , it is the same
Holy Spirit poured out on all flesh ...
it is the same Spirit and Truth we are to worship the Living God in ... It is a Living Word and living way ..