repent and be baptized

[eaglesway]

when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

I dont kno Seth, Peter clearly says water-  "corresponding to that....not by the removal of dirt from the flesh"(bath/ritual washing)... with all the practice of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in acts its really a stretch to make these verses about the baptism in the Holy Spirit- to me

[Seth]

What does saved mean?

Where did this question- What if you dont do it? Come from?(speaking hypethetically)

Salvation is a gift. It is healing and restoration. It is not escape from hell. Jesus is not making law in mark 16:16. He is describing the process, instructing His disciples in the tools of their trade. Gettin folks out from under the world, the flesh and the devil- and into the new creation, healed and whole.

Otherwise there is only one other conclusion. The apostles didnt know what they were doing. They did not have the revelation we have. They practiced jewish traditions because they never got the teachings of jesus right. Only Paul understood and that not untill he had been ministering wron for a long time

Brother, he says whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. if someone cannot logistically be water baptized but can still recieve the Spirit and be saved/healed,that means Jesus wasn't talking about water in that scripture.

[Seth]

when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

I dont kno Seth, Peter clearly says water-  "corresponding to that....not by the removal of dirt from the flesh"(bath/ritual washing)... with all the practice of John the Baptist, Jesus, and the apostles in acts its really a stretch to make these verses about the baptism in the Holy Spirit- to me

That's a matter of interpretation given the fact that Jesus identifies two kinds so baptism in the Bible. A clear conscience "through the resurrection of Jesus Christ?" Jesus was raised a life giving Spirit. Paul says that we are saved BY HIS LIFE, (Romans 5:10) not by physical water. Physical water doesn't have healing power. The resurrection of Jesus Christ contains the power to heal us of sin.

[eaglesway]

I would agree with that too, but in Hebrews 6, "doctrine of baptisms" is a foundation doctrine. Its not advanced meat. Its milk.

There are three baptisms spoken of, baptism into death, baptism in water, which relates to the first, and baptism in the Holy Spirit, which term was only used by Jesus.

Then there is the issue Tom brought up, the "one baptism" of Ephesians 4.

Any of these could apply in certain places but only one applies in the practice of the apostles because the book of Acts plainly tells us what they did.

For me, if they were wrong in what they did, or following a tradition, then the whole thing is baloney. They had walked with Jesus 3 1/2 years, They had a 40 day seminar with the risen Christ, They were commissioned with the keys of the kingdom and they were called the foundation stone of the heavenly Jerusalem by John the Revelator. Paul claimed to have the "whole counsel of God- and that was before he went to Rome at the end of Acts.

There is just no way I will believe Peter and John missed it in Acts.

No Way

We read what Jesus told them to do in Matthew 28 and Mark 16 and thats EXACTLY what they did.

But now we know better :o)  They just didnt have the knowledge we have LOL

Personally I think Romans 6 is clearly about water baptism. The language wherever Paul talks about the Spirit is clear as well.....

Strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man.... the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that is given us...... walk in the Spirit....be filled with the Spirit. but anyway :o)

I really dont think baptism is really optional if a believer wants to walk in victory over the long haul, but i do think it is optional in terms of , if you dont do it dont worry- you aint goin to hell :o)

[Seth]

Well, I have to restate that I'm not saying they got it wrong with water baptism. So we can clear that right away. And I'm not saying believers shouldn't be water baptized. So you don't have to defend that with me,

My point has to do with what baptism saves us. I believe we are saved, as Paul says, "by his life" (Romans 5:10), so when I see that Jesus says that John baptized with water, but HE will baptize us with the Holy Spirit, I have a choice to make in interpretation.

We are saved by his life. As Peter said, we are saved through baptism, through the reusrrection of Jesus Christ.

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues

I see that and think, hmm, which baptism grants the power to speak in new tongues and cast out devils?

Romans 6
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.



I see "for he that is dead is freed from sin." And I think, which baptism can free us from sin? Does water free me from sin? Does Spirit free me from sin? After all Paul does say "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live."

Is my old man crucified because I was baptized with water? Or is my old man crucified because Jesus baptized me with the Holy Spirit. You might say it's water, but that requires interpretation, and it is by no means set in stone that all cases of the word "baptism" must refer to water, because Jesus identifies two kinds of baptism, and you as a reader must make an interpretation if the context isn't specific, especially when the context refers to the gifts of the spirit, salvation  and the death of sin.

I don't belive water baptism saves us. I believe we are saved by his life. That doesn't mean I don't think a believer should do water baptism, or that the Apostles didn't do it.

[rosered]

 

  Here is where we all vary on interpretation    ..... 

I believe in the power of God to the point that   JESUS would make all things new   by  destroying death   at the cross and nothing  could hold

for me the  red and dead sea is    found in Revelation  20 when John said these things are to shortly  come to pass ..   and quickly          I believe this happened  when Jesus did speak to the ''spirits'' in prison      as we are now   
when did the books open   for you ?     when did you experience the book of life ?    when did you hear His voice   and the call of the bride to come   up here ?

what was the work of teh cross of Jesus Christ  , but to  fulfill the old covenanat    and bring in the new  coveant , making all things new  ,  Him being the testator =ONE  who has made a will or given a legacy.

Who goes boldly before the THRONE OF GRACE ?Hebrews 4 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.   
  are we raised up from the dead   than ?    to even be able to approach Gods grace   before the throne

I tell you this age of   grace is it !!!      in Gods kingdom   ALL   will be the same   and all  have seen him face to face   on the last day of their earthly existence ...   
I just got out of the lake of fire correction    , for not  just  taking the evil    and standing silent before my accuser  and my spirit   was   cast in prison    , and  am    not in the place of the Spiritual  ''rest'' I was before        the test/ trial

please prove me wrong here , I beg you,,,, those whom hold this doctrine so dearly   

...12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire....

LOOK AT JESUS WORDS  IN LUKE 12   JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT THIS  NOW   not some other millennial age  to come , big mistake that    is a faulty  error  of interpretation    by human  terms   and understanding    , I want more proof   please


   The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?

It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
  from a servant to a son    whom inherit all things Rev 21;7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

But suppose the servant says to himself, 'My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
the dead red sea     and the sea gave up the dead ..... can we die a thousand deaths in one lifetime  ?    spiritually speaking because the dead know nothing to what the Lord is doing ....

"The servant who knows the master's will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Is this the increase  of God permits ? Hebrews 6     from those beggarly elements   ?   Does the elements   melt with fervent heat ?     Does the Holy Spirit and fire mean  ,     Judgment with Comforting   TRUTH ?

Luke 12 

"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo,


and what constraint I am under until it is completed!


Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.

From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

This is exactly what  we are undergoing   right now   ....   everywhere  !!   even here to a certain degree .. the heat is on     

and the   [SWORD] WORD OF GOD IS DIVIDING     the   true from the false and the  believers from the hypocrits    and souls from the spirits     Hebrews 4           


He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does.


And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is.



Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."

  spirits in prison !!   JESUS RIGHT NOW IS THE LORD OF THE DEAD AND THE LIVING   , Think about that  , Him being the JUDGE OF ALL   AND ALL ARE SUBJECT TO HIM   NOW ........   the dead and living      meaning all are subject to HIM       

"Whoever would love life
    and see good days
must keep their tongue from evil
    and their lips from deceitful speech.
They must turn from evil and do good;
    they must seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous
    and his ears are attentive to their prayer,
but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."
Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed.

"Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened." But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord.


Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.


For it is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

THE LORD is showing us that we are still in the red dead sea of blood  and the parting of it is    law [in  law division ]  and grace [man in the house ]

    and every man must build on the Rock  so the flood does not wash him away    back into the  dead red  sea    [all the unbelieving  same as being  disobedient ]   

you have NOT   strive against sin to the shedding of blood   hebrews 12 ;4

Till now you have not given your blood in your fight against sin             sin  cast into   the  sea  as blood      where the dead will be raised to LIFE AGAIN  BY THE FORGIVENESS   AND MERCY OF GODS UNCHANGING LOVE  ... 

  Micah 7 ...

18Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love.


19He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea. 20You will give truth to Jacob And unchanging love to Abraham, Which You swore to our forefathers From the days of old.


His enemies shall be his footstool   Hebrews 10    Christ's Sacrifice Once for All  the dead and the living



...12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,


13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.


14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified....

Its is very intense   and by Holy Spirit witness we can see our time to Shine is a now  thing  inthe earth       , but all will shine by HIS PRESENCE as on earth as it is in heaven
many are called but a few are chosen       

  the calling is to come up here with M e [LAMB OF GOD ]  and the bride now      but few are chosen out of the world for this   , many are not   risen till the last day

the last day    is our last day of being   mortal to me     or as dead  in the body and alive by faith in Christ     , you have already begun to LIVE IN THE SPIRIT &TRUTH

Neh 8:18   Also day by day, from the first day unto the last day, he read in the book of the law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day was a solemn assembly, according unto the manner.


Jhn 6:39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Jhn 6:40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select allJhn 6:44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 7:37   In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Jhn 11:24   Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.WE KNOW HE IS THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE

Jhn 12:48   He that rejects me, and receives not my words, hath one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.       Yes I can see this as    the   mortal [earthly  man] has taken on immortality  [spiritual man in CHRIST]      !!
.
Mat 20:12   Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

   I find it  awesome that     the last penny  [to get out of prison ]   and  was a days wage   in the Lords  vineyard ...

  Even what he thinks he  has will be taken away and given to another   the faithful servant

  Jesus  is  THE  SON   OF GOD  and greatest  of all     and servant of ALL     tasting death for every man 

  Hebrews 2 8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.


9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. 10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings....


the sufferings and  fiery trials are what makes perfect  , so  why would    God not give us    both the HOLY SPIRIT   and lake of fire
  we are to die  right?  so we can live and new life

I can see for some that blessed is He whom is in the first resurrection for the  second death has no power to harm

  But the harm/or hurt  is to   correct us and   chasten us as we harmed others   we are judged and measured to   be harmed

by the heat of the day to melt the elements   being  under   the bondage of them    http://www.blbclassic.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4747&t=KJV



  being the HEAT OF THE DAY [thoussand year regin]    Rev 2:11   He that hath G2192 an ear, G3775 let him hear G191 what G5101 the Spirit G4151 saith G3004 unto the churches; G1577 He that overcometh G3528 shall G91 G0 not G3364 be hurt G91 of G1537 the second G1208 death. G2288


Rev 20:6   Blessed G3107 and G2532 holy G40 is he that hath G2192 part G3313 in G1722 the first G4413 resurrection: G386 on G1909 such G5130 the second G1208 death G2288 hath G2192 no G3756 power, G1849 but G235 they shall be G2071 priests G2409 of God G2316 and G2532 of Christ, G5547 and G2532 shall reign G936 with G3326 him G846 a thousand G5507 years. G2094


Rev 20:14   And G2532 death G2288 and G2532 hell G86 were cast G906 into G1519 the lake G3041 of fire. G4442 This G3778 is G2076 the second G1208 death. G2288


Rev 21:8   But G1161 the fearful, G1169 and G2532 unbelieving, G571 and G2532 the abominable, G948 and G2532 murderers, G5406 and G2532 whoremongers, G4205 and G2532 sorcerers, G5332 and G2532 idolaters, G1496 and G2532 all G3956 liars, G5571 shall have their G846 part G3313 in G1722 the lake G3041 which G3588 burneth G2545 with fire G4442 and G2532 brimstone: G2303 which is G3603 the second G1208 death. G2288


heat    is what will make us repent  , ever hear the expression on fire for God ?

  I believe Jesus wants the  ministers  wicks burning and Holy Spirit oil    as Lamps   to the world  Hebrews 1 Who makes his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Its says our flesh  being clothed in Christ today  cast into an oven tomorrow ....

  I really believe  our fiery trials are  exactly this very thing !!! the torment of failure !

  ...27"Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin;

but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.

28"But if God so clothes the grass in the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, how much more will He clothe you? You men of little faith! 29"And do not seek what you will eat and what you will drink, and do not keep worrying....


I studied this a long time ago    and saw  the lilies of the field  ''represent''    the   white ones in the world whom are   as the trumpets  blasting and preparing  us for battle ...    Paul was  one by the revelation of Jesus Christ having the   proof and  witness in his mouth as will as written for our instruction   

   
Jas 1:11   For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.[ the church of laconian  church  in rev 3         you are rich and need nothing  , oh no   get ready for some eye slave !!]
2Pe 3:10   But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


2Pe 3:12   Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Rev 7:16   They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.[Spiritual man  being completed in Christ  ] 
Rev 16:9   And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.  carnal man still  burning out the elements of bondage  to learn righteousness in the earth and call on the name of the Lord to be saved  ]



wow    , sorry so long , but it just keeps on connecting         :HeartThrob: 

[ed]

Fingers type fast and whole lines posts get deleted in the wink of an eye!

Rosered, that was great. 

The scripture that impacted me was that Jesus wanted the fire kindled, but had a baptism to undergo first.

He has undergone that baptism and brings the fire to us now.

The sword and the fire are the division of the old and the new.  The work of the fire burns the old, and brings the pure.  The work of the sword divides the old from the new, it is never pleasant to have the old cut away.  Many fight the sword to their death...........and don't even know it.

Great post rose.

The thing about baptism that impresses me is a total immersion in person of Jesus Christ........not the flesh man, but the risen Lord.  It is truly the most awesome of all things, far surpassing a ceremony of water.  Water ceremonies are wonderful, for they tell of what is true in the spirit.  I'm not knocking water, it is a symbol of the true.

 

[rosered]

Fingers type fast and whole lines posts get deleted in the wink of an eye!

Rosered, that was great. 

The scripture that impacted me was that Jesus wanted the fire kindled, but had a baptism to undergo first.

He has undergone that baptism and brings the fire to us now.

The sword and the fire are the division of the old and the new.  The work of the fire burns the old, and brings the pure.  The work of the sword divides the old from the new, it is never pleasant to have the old cut away.  Many fight the sword to their death...........and don't even know it.

Great post rose.

The thing about baptism that impresses me is a total immersion in person of Jesus Christ........not the flesh man, but the risen Lord.  It is truly the most awesome of all things, far surpassing a ceremony of water.  Water ceremonies are wonderful, for they tell of what is true in the spirit.  I'm not knocking water, it is a symbol of the true.

  Amen ed !!    So glad you saw them   things too!!      :dsunny:

This has been      an inward thing going on for awhile[an inward stirring of the Spirit ] , but it just  like a volcano had to erupt      finally ,,

I was going into silence   and not post   here for awhile  , but could not hold the silence        :dontknow:

  I knew the key was to see    ''Jesus setting the world on fire   by the Cross''being  baptism  of death '''''   


I do believe there is the realm of the Spirit that   perfection is met
  looking at the earth and you see the troubles of  no peace  and divisions     and the warring between    .

    The Gold Lampstand
...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 6 Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.

7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"...

Ephesians 6:17   
Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.   all those being gathering into Christ are equipped with  the SWORD OF THE SPIRIT    [HELMET of salvation is the mind of Christ also the crown of life in the end result   Paul said in Romans 7  I just went through this !!
the world is within you all these things are battles within you         


      even in troublesome times    Daniel 9   

Gabriel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks

...24"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place.


25"So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined....

prince world nothing in me Peace I Leave with You
...29"Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe. 30"I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler/prince  of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

31but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let us go from here.
 


I can see the huge divide    as the SPIRIT   has victory over       the carnal nature   in mankind   from the point of the cross on   to this DAY [1000 year reign]


  His feet   the shodding of peace      and doctrine   do crush the head of satan   Romans 16  Avoid Divisions


...19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all;[I believe in  heaven and all the witnesses surrounding us all   ,even the  earth would receive Word ]


therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.


20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

      to know I have loved you  showing  brotherly Love

Message to the Church in Philadelphia
...8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.


10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth....

the one  hour being    The Mystery Explained
...11"The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

12"The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom,


but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.

13"These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

to make war with the Lamb   and the lamb will OVERCOME THEM    !!   and that is how Baylon will be destroyed     fulfilling Gods will
   this  is everyone speaking   about the earthly church system      in their carnal minds [beast]      making her naked exposing her sin error
   eating her  flesh   is the same as devouring one another       

Galatians 5             Freedom in Christ
...14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." 15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
and burning her with fire

  The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole body, sets the whole course of one's life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell/ gehenna  judgment .


      so God uses both  the  carnal and Spiritual in natures   to fulfill his will /desire

[Patinak]

Rosered, I really enjoyed these last couple of posts.  Good Stuff!
Pat

[Seth]

The way I see water baptism is how Paul wanted the actions of married couples to reflect the relationship that Jesus has with the church. Also, Jesus took physical bread and wine and said it was (symbolized, since he hadn't died yet) his body and blood and that they ought to do this in remembrance of him. I can see the value that physical things have in reflecting and reminding us of spiritual things, because we are physical beings with physical eyes. So, in no way am I saying there is anything wrong with water baptism. My point here is that if we see the word "baptized" and assert that it automatically refers to John's water baptism in all cases of ambiguity, I see that as a matter of debatable interpretation, not an open and shut case.

Peter was clear that a certain baptism saves us. When I look in Titus 3 and it says that we were saved, not by our own works of righteousness (water baptism qualifies as a work) but by the washing, and regeneration of the Holy Spirit (Spirit baptism), to me the odds are stacked against water baptism being the "baptism doth save" that Peter was talking about, or that Christ was talking about in Mark 16:16.

Just one man's opinion.

[gregoryfl]

I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out.  I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why.  As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts.  We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:

The Aramaic word for repent is תוב (tuwb), similar to the Hebrew word שוב (shuwb), which always carries the action of returning to where one was at first. We came from God. We are not simply breathing, walking dirt. He breathed of himself into us. He is the source of anything we do. The fleshly mind is a distorting of that truth, as it is under the delusion that we are separate from God and can do without him.

The Aramaic word for belief is הימן (hiymen). Hebraically, it is about supporting what one is connected to (such as when Aaron and Hur supported Moses outstretched arms). If I support something, I am mentally connected to it and my actions will show it. (Think of supporting one's team by attending games, buying gear, telling everyone about how great they are, etc).

To me, when someone expresses hiymen (belief) in the good news, they are reconnecting with their origin, their home in their Creator, by means of the Yeshua, the true and living Miltha. Such a person is automatically tuwb (repenting), as they are mentally returning to that original and authentic mindset, that anything they are is utterly connected with and dependent on a merciful God.

That is the essence of what I see Peter calling for, a mental return. This has nothing to do with actions. The actions are not the source of tuwb, but the result of it.

I believe the thief on the cross expressed this. He mentally supported Yeshua by saying 'we are getting what we deserve, but this Man has done nothing wrong'. He also reconnected with him, recognizing him as his source by asking, 'Master, remember me when you come into your kingdom'.

Ronen

[Abigail]

Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.

I was wondering about the same thing, Seth.
I even wonder when the Bible says something like 'they were baptized', it necesarily means water baptism, but it could probably be something we assume. As in Acts 19:
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.
5 On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
6 And as Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Verse 6 imo doesn't have to mean that Paul laid hands upon them after they were baptized, it could also describe more closely what happened in verse 5, namely, they were being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Not stating anything btw, just wondering.

[rosered]

Rosered, I really enjoyed these last couple of posts.  Good Stuff!
Pat

God bless  Pat ,   you can see this too!!    :dsunny:

Many are starting to  seeing the Holy Spirit and FIRE     baptism  more clearly
Praise God  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.

I was wondering about the same thing, Seth.
I even wonder when the Bible says something like 'they were baptized', it necesarily means water baptism, but it could probably be something we assume. As in Acts 19:
4 And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus.
5 On hearing this they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus
6 And as Paul laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Verse 6 imo doesn't have to mean that Paul laid hands upon them after they were baptized, it could also describe more closely what happened in verse 5, namely, they were being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Not stating anything btw, just wondering.

Well, if we take certain individual scriptures and look at them alone, we could indeed wonder. But, when we look at the whole context of the gospels and Acts- it is clear they were all baptized in water AND with the Holy Ghost and fire.

I have seen many people baptized in the Spirit. I have been baptized in the Spirit and move in the gifts of the Spirit and have for nearly 40 years.

I have layed hands on people who have not yet been baptized and seen them receive the Holy Spirit. Then I baptize them in water. This is the new Testament pattern, and it is effective when practiced....

But let me make this clear. I am teaching baptism only as a spiritual benefit to believers.

The baptism in the Spirit with fire often comes before baptism as with Cornelius' household, and that is proof that reconciliation and justification happen STRICTLY THROUGH BELIEVING. For me believing is turning to God by faith n Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

But there is no question as to what the apostles practiced.

As to Acts 19- IT IS CLEAR THAT THEY WERE BAPTIZED IN WATER. This is because if you read the whole story you will see that Paul asked them....

"Have you received the Holy Spirit SINCE YOU BELIEVED.

They answered, "We hadnt heard of this"

So Paul asked them, "Unto what baptism were you baptized"

They said, "John's baptism"---- John's baptism was in water unto repentence

Why did paul ask this question? What baptism did you receive? To determine if they were new believers who had not received the Holy Spirit yet as in Acts 8



12 But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. 13 Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.

14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

This makes the distinction CLEARLY- they had not received the Holy Spirit baptism yet- they had believed and been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19 describes the SAME APPLICATION.....

Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be.

[eaglesway]

Cornelius Household....

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

It really can't be much clearer than that. So, you have Phillip baptizing the eunuch- in water

All the disciples that Phillip evangelized- baptized in water in Jesus name- and then later receiving the baptism in the Holy Ghost thru the laying on of hands of the apostles

All of Cornelius' household- THE FIRST GENTILES TO RECEIVE THE GOSPEL AND THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT- baptized in water in Jesus name.

Acts 19- when is says "so they were batized in the name of the Lord Jesus and Paul layed his hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues and prophesied"- this is the same pattern, I dont see why would anyone try to break it out of the continuity of context- but there you have it, I am just presenting my opinion and everyone is welcome to there own view LOL

I have seen the Holy Spirit fall many times, no one should take my word for it -but i will say that from the time I began baptizing disciples as soon as they believed I saw a marked increase in the number of them who were immediately filled with the Holy Spirit and fire.

[eaglesway]

BTW Seth,
I read Mark 16:16 like this

He that believes and is baptized will be healed and delivered.

That is what sozo(Grk for saved) means,

[Seth]

BTW Seth,
I read Mark 16:16 like this

He that believes and is baptized will be healed and delivered.

That is what sozo(Grk for saved) means,

Right I agree about healed and delivered.

And since the context of salvation in the NT is that we are saved not by our works but by the washing and regeneration of the Spirit, here is how I read the scripture:

He that believes and is baptized by Jesus in the Holy Spirit shall be healed and delivered. And he shall speak in tongues and cast out demons.

[eaglesway]

I read it differently- but I have no problem with that, it is certainly not conclusive in that individual verse taken alone

But it is clear to me that what the apostles practiced included water baptism.

[Seth]

And I also agree with at. They did practice water baptism.

[lastpost]

I can certainly see how people can build up a scriptural need to undergo a ritualistic ceremony in order to be a follower, disciple and minister in the Name of Jesus Christ:

"You cannot do this in the Name of Jesus because it does not fit in with how we think it should be, look, see here, you do not follow us!"

[Mark 9:38-41]

"And John did answer him, saying, 'Teacher, we saw a certain one in thy name casting out demons, who doth not follow us, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow us.'

And Jesus said, 'Forbid him not, for there is no one who shall do a mighty work in my name, and shall be able readily to speak evil of me: for he who is not against us is for us;

for whoever may give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because ye are Christ's, verily I say to you, he may not lose his reward"


I can also see how the simple Jesus begins to get lost in the build up of religious legalism - where the criteria become more important than people knowing Christ - where the whole point is missed.

I am of the opinion that no ritualistic ceremony or religious requirement or glossolalia is necessary to achieve what Christ wants from His children.

I personally believe that what He wants is a humble, contrite and repentant heart - and when that comes through learning about Jesus Christ, the life is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and all else will follow - without the need for a ritual, as beneficial as that ritual might be.

I believe that a follower of Jesus Christ, who is willing to try and walk in His Way, who is an example for others, who tells others of his or her humble Jesus and His powerful sacrificial love, so that they can understand their God through Him - the God in Christ - and how much He loves them, so that they in turn can come to that essential state of a humble, contrite and repentant heart - I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple, and many people who would come to meet the simple Jesus are turned away by the legalistic righteousness that people attach to this...

[Luke 18:9-14]

"To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other people – robbers, evildoers, adulterers – or even like this tax collector.

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

'But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, "God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

'I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.' "


I believe that Jesus should be given back to humanity.

This is just my opinion

In Christ

[eaglesway]

There  is nothing required to know the love of God. Even unbelievers can know His love, as the rain falls upon the just and the unjust.

Discipleship however, is something else entirely. I wonder that the same apostles who wrote the scriptures that we quote from when making out various theological points, are somehow characterized as having been in the dark about baptism- or anything else for that matter.

Did the apostles build up a ritualistic need for baptism? Of course not. They were disciple following their Lord's command.

To quote from Paul to deny his teaching and practice in another part of the scripture seems strange to me. It is exegetically futile.

Who decides?  Which of their actions were enlightened, which were not.

Acts 2:37 "They were pierced to the heart and said, "Men and brethren, What must we do?" Peter replied,

"Repent and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit, for the promise is to you and your children and all who are afar off, even as many as the Lord shall call to Himself."

Peter and Paul ministered in exactly the same way- as they received from their Lord and Master.

Which part of Luke's Acts of the Apostles was not meant to be taken seriously, since these disciples, these apostles- were really in the dark about these deeper truths we espouse from their writings?

Well, at this point I have fully expressed my opinions on it, but I do not think that it is possible to have it both ways.

Grace and peace to all :o)

[lastpost]

Dear EW, nobody is saying that the apostles were in the dark about baptism. I understand what you are saying and can see why you say it is all necessary to be a disciple of Christ. With respect, I think this is overshadowing the important thing that God wants from His child...

There  is nothing required to know the love of God. Even unbelievers can know His love, as the rain falls upon the just and the unjust.

With respect EW, this is not what I said was required as it misses out the heart of the matter that I referred to, which is the all-important transforming power of true repentance that enables ther fashioning of one into the likeness of Christ...

I personally believe that what He wants is a humble, contrite and repentant heart - and when that comes through learning about Jesus Christ, the life is transformed by the power of the Holy Spirit and all else will follow - without the need for a ritual, as beneficial as that ritual might be.

I believe that a follower of Jesus Christ, who is willing to try and walk in His Way, who is an example for others, who tells others of his or her humble Jesus and His powerful sacrificial love, so that they can understand their God through Him - the God in Christ - and how much He loves them, so that they in turn can come to that essential state of a humble, contrite and repentant heart - I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple, and many people who would come to meet the simple Jesus are turned away by the legalistic righteousness that people attach to this.

Peace in Change

[eaglesway]

Hi lastpost,

This thread was on baptism. I agree there are much more important things than baptism., but this is what the thread is on. If we are going to speak about the topic, lets do so as we have been.

The all important foundation of repentence is not at issue in this particular thread.

Also, if you will, please refrain from trying to interpret for me what others are saying for me :o)

I ma perfectly capable of that.

My opinion- and thats all it is, in the context of this thread- is that making baptism an optional experience, implies that the apostles did not know what they were doing. My reasoning for this is simple.

It was the apostles through whom Jesus sent forth the gospel. baptism was their practice. I am simply trying to demontrate from the scriptures that baptism in water was important then. My direct implication is therefore it is also important now, because nothing has changed in the covenant since then.

Sinced this thread is about baptism, specifically- and your reply to me was that some people need to build up a ritual in order to feel they are pleasing God. Naturally, baptism being the subject of the thread, i would assume you are referring to baptism.

If that was not what you meant, please clarify.

[lastpost]

Hi EW,

I do apologise if I have misinterpreted what you have been saying, which is essentially that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, one must also be practising water baptism - and I fully understand why you and many others might see it that way...

"Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be"

I carry out water baptism in our little chapel if asked, not often. But the point I am making is that, in my opinion, a disciple of Jesus Christ does not have to have been water baptised in order to tell of the Saviour to another person to come to the essential requirement that God wants from His child - the all-important thing - that allows that child to come to a realisation of his sin, to come to repentance, and be brought into a permanent loving relationship with God through Christ - hence: "I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple" all rolled into one without the need for water baptism. I do not believe that the Lord would turn around and say this does not count because there has been no water baptism.

Peace in Christ.

[eaglesway]

Hi EW,

I do apologise if I have misinterpreted what you have been saying, which is essentially that to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, one must also be practising water baptism - and I fully understand why you and many others might see it that way...

"Blood first(believing) then water(baptism) and Spirit(baptism in the Holy Spirit) -These three agree in one, BUT ONLY BELIEVING IS CONCERNED WITH RECONCILIATION and receiving eternal life. The other two are about becoming disciples and ministers of the new covenat- which EVERY BELIEVER is called to be"

I carry out water baptism in our little chapel if asked, not often. But the point I am making is that, in my opinion, a disciple of Jesus Christ does not have to have been water baptised in order to tell of the Saviour to another person to come to the essential requirement that God wants from His child - the all-important thing - that allows that child to come to a realisation of his sin, to come to repentance, and be brought into a permanent loving relationship with God through Christ - hence: "I believe that a true follower of Jesus is both a minister and a disciple" all rolled into one without the need for water baptism. I do not believe that the Lord would turn around and say this does not count because there has been no water baptism.

Peace in Christ.

Coming late to the conversation, I see that you havent readmy posts thoroughly, and I understand that, its been a long thread :o).

I have repeatedly said that baptism is for the benefit of the saint, not a law.

What I said about discipleship is simply, boiled down to it, "Disciples obey" and there is certainly no reason that a disiple would refuse baptism. I realize that this scenario, "What is someone dies before they are baptized" causes some concern for some, but it shouldnt, because baptism is a benefit to the living, in their walk- it is not an law over which someone would be condemned under any circumstance.

Simply, again, all I am saying is there is a benefit from baptism beyond just ritual, and it is still in effect under the new covenant, as a blessing to believers that has efficacy. To refuse it makes no sense.



I will say, that a disciple is obedient to their master, and as I see it, the apostles were being obedient in regard to ministering baptism- not being religious. Therefore, in my opinion there is a loss, in a real spiritual measure- of the benefit which baptism provides for anyone who would, for whatever reason, refuse to be baptized The benfit relates to healing and deliverance, which some disciples may be suffering from the lack of a proper baptism , which is my reason for continuing to discuss the issue.