repent and be baptized

[Caffus]

Tom! I love that idea about Noah ark being a water baptism of sorts and I believe that to be correct! They will be made whole, healed saved! I know some Christians think only those on the ark are saved and all the rest are in hell! So sad..that would mean babies and children and countless others are tormented right now and forever with no hope! How can one who loves believe that and be anything but horrified.  So sad   :Pray:

[eaglesway]

The body of Christ is the new ark, carrying the hope of the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. The tabernacle of living stones is the refuge, and as this age comes to an end, those who serve jesus will receive the end of their faith- the redemption of their bodies. The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God, who, with the MAster will set them free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Romans 8)

[Psalm91:4]

The body of Christ is the new ark, carrying the hope of the new heavens and the new earth in which righteousness dwells. The tabernacle of living stones is the refuge, and as this age comes to an end, those who serve jesus will receive the end of their faith- the redemption of their bodies. The whole creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God, who, with the MAster will set them free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Romans 8)

:iagree:    :)

[rosered]

This is the most awesome thing I have yet learned about God 

all evil is bound to the lower state and the rising is only in the earthly realm   in the old heavens and earth   , this is where death   desires   to  reigns  and as the waters rose so did the sin    exposing all pride in mankind   as nothing  , starting over we see the  HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE will   burn out the remainder  by the LIGHT OF HIS COMING TO US each and everyone   when the time is right ... ..

  But thank be to God for He will   send   JESUS CHRIST TO REIGN   in our hearts AND  BEING THE LORD OF all THE DEAD AND LIVING   will conquer death again and again   till all his enemies be  put under His feet , that is to say His teaching     and  victorious good news   of the gospel ... 
and that man of sin exposed for his prideful and arrogant  blasphemous    hard hearted and  stiff necked   ways , those necks will be broken    as it rises up to conquer     
broken the necks  proverbs 29 Whoever remains stiff-necked after many rebukes will suddenly be destroyed--without remedy.

New Living Translation
Whoever stubbornly refuses to accept criticism will suddenly be destroyed beyond recovery.

English Standard Version
He who is often reproved, yet stiffens his neck, will suddenly be broken beyond healing.

And to me that is a good thing     

   under JESUS FEET Strong's G4228 - pous
πούς
Transliteration
pous
Pronunciation
pü's (Key)

Part of Speech
masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
A primary word
TDNT Reference
6:624,925
Vines
View Entry
Outline of Biblical Usage
a foot, both of men or beast

often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquishedSynonyms Examples Word Origin
verb (used with object)
1.
to conquer or subdue by superior force, as in battle.
2.
to defeat in any contest or conflict; be victorious over:
to vanquish one's opponent in an argument.
3.
to overcome or overpower:
He vanquished all his fears.

of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet


SUBDUE ALL THINGS CHRIST  PHILIPPIANS 3


20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;



21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory,


by the exertion  ''the application of a SPIRITUAL force, influence, or quality: of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

WOW  just amazing !!! 

[ed]

WOW  just amazing !!!

There is only one Lord, and he brings the many to the place of gleeful submission.

All good all the time.

Repent and be baptized!

[eaglesway]

For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. Habbakuk 2:14

Glory to God!

[lastpost]

I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing deja vu because the last Christian chat forum I was on before I came to this one had continuous debate between people who identified with either Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism. At least here, for the most part, universal reconciliation is agreed on, which is why I decided to visit this forum, but, since I've been here, I've seen that there are different interpretations of scripture similar to what I saw on the other site. I don't consider myself to belong to any school of theology. I think theology is just man's philosophy about God and scripture. I guess I would probably be accused of believing in dispensationalism though because I do think God deals differently at different times with different people in scripture, and I'm not into interpreting a lot of scripture figuratively. I just think I'm trying to understand scripture literally and only using figurative interpretation when forced to by context, which is how I think all literature should be interpreted to get a clear understanding of what it's intended to say. I've experienced conflict about immortality of the soul and eternal life here, neither which I see in an accurate translation of scripture. I've seen various other things debated too, especially when it comes to literal vs. figurative interpretation, and the issue that has just resurfaced involving the evangel. As with everything else, lots of verses are presented to support each side of the debate. I never used to be aware of a lot of what is being discussed on the forum. In fact, I used to be completely unfamiliar with scripture because, when I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, we weren't taught doctrine from scripture. I was one of the lucky kids in the family who didn't have to go to Catholic school because I was the oldest of five and we were too broke, but I got the first half of my Saturdays ruined by sitting in catechism class if I couldn't manage to skip and go have some fun somewhere. That Catholic indoctrination class was where I was told my mom was going to hell for being Methodist. So, instead of programming me like they thought they were, that was when I started to plot my escape from the church when I was old enough to get away, but I digress. Theology seems to divide believers instead of bringing them together. That's why I wasn't interested in the debates at christianchat.com, and I still find theological debates boring. But it seems like, if you believe something after acquiring enough evidence to do so, you're going to have to defend your position continuously especially if you participate on a forum. I understand the idea of one evangel for Israel and the nations because that's what I used to believe until I got some more information, but I know there are some people who have seen some of the same information and still disagree. It just seems to make sense to me considering everything I've read about Israel and the nations in scripture despite the fact that I know most people aren't even aware of the idea of two evangels. This debate has occurred before more than once on this forum. So I'm just going to attach a few PDF files for anybody who is interested, and, as has been said, you can decide for yourself what you think makes the most sense. This isn't all there is on the subject, but they're a few articles to give the basic idea of what's up. Despite the fact that I present this information by other people and think it's true, I try to keep a open mind all the time because I want to know the truth. So, regardless of what I believe now, if I get some more information about anything pertaining to scripture that causes me to think I should change my mind about something because I realize something I didn't before, I'm not going to stubbornly cling to something just because I thought it was truth for a long time. It took me awhile to come to believe in universal reconciliation. I had to spend a lot of time searching for as much information as I could, while I was actually trying to disprove it, before I finally had to admit to myself that it had to be true because everything was confirmed by an accurate translation of scripture, not just an abundance of commentary. So, instead of clogging up this thread with a perpetual debate, here are some attachments for everybody's personal reading to help you decide what you think about all of it. It may take a couple of posts to get all these files posted due to the size limit, but here they are.   

Dear Tom,

What I wanted to say was that I read the sincerity in your post and although you and I have very different ideas indeed, I was touched by your honesty. There is something about honesty which transcends opinions.

I downloaded a few of the files that you posted, thank you. If I did not have my own service in the Spirit to perform which will last years [God willing], I would make a study of them. Ultimately, I know the outcomes would not affect my core beliefs which do not depend on theologies as such.

Tony

Peace in the Great Father

[Tom]

I understand, bro. I think it's sad that theology tends to divide believers rather than unite them like the body of Christ does in spirit. Folks who come to agree with the Concordant teachings are accustomed to being in the minority because orthodox theology doesn't like to be contradicted. I really don't consider myself to be a follower of any theology, but I understand how I can be associated with some because of what I've come to believe from studying scripture. I think it's important to maintain an open mind though because truth is what we should seek wherever it leads us. I think everybody's interpretation should be respected even if you don't agree with it. I hear a lot of figurative interpretations that I find amusing, some even humorous, but I don't put anybody down because I know everybody has their own perspective. I think anybody can imagine anything from the text of scripture, but I prefer to interpret it literally like all literature unless the context seems to demand it be interpreted figuratively. I also like to hear what anybody has to say because I think we can benefit each other even if we don't always agree. I try to keep it real without offending anybody even though it seems I've been misinterpreted sometimes. I'm not going to let anybody's negative opinion worry me because it ain't that serious. I'm just going to keep on grinning. Life makes you crazy sometimes, but sometimes sanity seems relative just like reality. So I don't worry about that either. I think there are as many ways to interpret scripture as there are people who read it, and we've all got our own brand of crazy to deal with when we do so. Sometimes it helps to see how somebody else sees things, and sometimes it doesn't. But I don't think we should avoid checking it out when we have the opportunity to do so because we might learn something just by seeing everything through somebody else's eyes. Anyway, I sometimes just share information that I've received to try to help some people who may be seeking the truth. I don't have all the answers, but I believe the word of God does if we take the time to study it. And the amazing thing about it is, no matter how much you read it, you can still learn something new anytime you do, or at least be edified again by reading something you're familiar with. I feel compassion for people who come here seeking the truth because I remember when I was young and had just left the church and was seeking. I went down a lot of dead ends before I found the way and the truth and the life. In retrospect, taking the unintentional detours was a learning experience, but I would like to help save some people the trouble they caused me if I can. That's why I never mind sharing information that I've acquired along the way, and people can take it or leave it. But at least they will have heard it so they can make an intelligent decision about whether they want to receive it and believe it. I say don't take anybody's word for anything except the word of God because that's the only word you can always rely on. You really need to get hold of an accurate translation though to know the truth. I've been ramblin on too long here. So I'm out. Peace to you too, bro. 

[joeteekay]

Very selective offerings. It seems to me that all the scriputes on the topic must be considered.

Mind you, I am not teaching baptismal salvation. All I have said is that baptism in water remains in effect under the new covenant, and provides a benefit that is more than just ritual. Acts 19 makes it clear to me that Paul thought, taught and practised this.

I think there is more than enough scripture to support that view, so I have offered it, and I stand behind it- but I am not trying to make baptism a law for anyone, or teach baptismal justification, or any such thing.

As I have said repeatedly, Jesus submitted to it to fulfill all righteousness, the apostles taught it, let every person be convinced in their own heart how they ought to respond to the scriptures on the matter- but at least consider all the scriptures.

I agree with EW. Salvation (healing) is a process.
  It all starts with a calling from God (John 6:44).
  That is God's doing.  And then we are led to repentance

Rom_2:4  Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

So we are required to repent of our sins and acknowledge our sinful nature. 

And water baptism typically enters into this process.
  In the NT we find mention to the word  baptism or its variation 82 times, and most are referring to water baptism.
That should tell us something about its importance to the conversion process.

Look at how many times it is mentioned in the NT.  Of Paul's conversion, of the Ethiopian eunuch, of the 3000 at Pentecost, Lydia, Crispus  Cornelius and family, Jesus Himself and many others.
No I do not believe that salvation hinges on a water baptism, but it is something that many who are called of God do out of repentance and faith.

I also see that in the OT the Noah deluge was a water baptism shadowing the need for all humanity to be purified by God and Him being the Saviour of all.

Similarly the crossing of the Red Sea was symbolic of a nation, the chosen Israelites, typifying a baptismal process ending physically after 40 years and entering the promised land.

Then the spiritual reality is the baptism in the NT which is a personal experience of conversion. And assuredly, the primary baptism is by the Holy Spirit wherein Christ dwells in us.

In the NT we find a few types of baptisms.

Baptism by water.
Baptism by fire.
Baptism unto death.

And in Eph_4:5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

So is there one baptism or more?

One does not always mean only or singlular. It can also mean primary according to Strong's G1520. 

There is one Spirit and yet we read of 7 spirits (Rev 1:4, 3:1, 4:5, 5:6)

There is one baptism and yet we read of baptism of water and of fire. The primary and foremost one is baptism (immersion) of the Spirit which brings about immortality.

If we have a conviction to be water baptized as an act of sincere repentance, how do we do it?   It really is an expression of faith.

Some have had that experience through the church (group) they attended.  In my case it was in the Worldwide Church of God in July1972.  Warm summer day, not like that of Sheila (post #58 - baptized in winter).

To me below are testimonials indicating the value of water baptism of some forum members:

lomarah post # 22

To each their own in my opinion!   
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho.   

  I felt exactly what Lomarah felt about her baptism which she mentions.

Sheila's post 58 :

   when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold.  we wore shirts and

  shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red!  I looked like I was

covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal!  everything turned red!

- Also I really was impressed by what Sheila said about her two baptisms (post #17):

  I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added  Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and

the Holy spirit.  so when I was brought out and  taught about the salvation of all men.  I baptized myself

  all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.

   what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days?  the very churches He called us out of?

        my ears are open

I find a more meaning full way of looking at this topic of baptism is by using the word immersion to gain a deeper appreciation for what his thing called baptism is all about in English (just my opinion). Young's LV uses immersion for baptism.

Act_11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed immersed (baptized) with water; but ye shall be immersed (baptized) with the Holy Ghost.

Finally from rosered post 36 is so true :

I do not see any divisions  , just layers of  TRUTH       in everyone discussing    the subject  of baptism   and its  meaning to them personally


relevant scriptures:
baptise - 9 matches
baptized - 51 matches
baptism - 22 matches
Mat_3:6  And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mat_3:13  Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat_3:14  But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat_3:16  And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat_20:22  But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat_20:23  And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mar_1:5  And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mar_1:8  I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Mar_1:9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mar_10:38  But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar_10:39  And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar_16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Luk_3:7  Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Luk_3:12  Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do?
Luk_3:21  Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luk_7:29  And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
Luk_7:30  But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Luk_12:50  But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
Joh_3:22  After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
Joh_3:23  And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
Joh_4:1  When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
Joh_4:2  (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
Joh_10:40  And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
Act_1:5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Act_2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act_2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Act_8:12  But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act_8:13  Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act_8:16  (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act_8:36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act_8:38  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act_9:18  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Act_10:47  Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act_10:48  And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act_11:16  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act_16:15  And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Act_16:33  And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act_18:8  And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act_19:3  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act_19:4  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act_19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act_22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Rom_6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
1Co_1:13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co_1:14  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co_1:15  Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co_1:16  And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co_10:2  And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co_12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co_15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Gal_3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

[eaglesway]

Great Post :o)

[Seth]

I'm wondering about Mark 16:16: He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who does not believe shall be judged/condemned.

I personally believe that we are saved by the Spirit which comes to us by faith, not our own works, although I can also see that water baptism is part of the New Testament acts. So, I think we all agree that water baptism isn't a salvation issue. What I wonder though, is if this Mark verse means Spirit baptism, what about the other instances of that word that do not specify "water" or "spirit." In other words, if I say I baptized someone, you might automatically think I mean in water. But what if I meant Spirit?

[Psalm91:4]

I thought about that too, Seth.

Here is where I am with that, so far....

There is only one Person who baptizes us with the holy Spirit.....Jesus.

So that rules out any individual claiming to have baptized anyone else in the Spirit. But we can water baptize one another endlessly!  :)

[Seth]

Well, i dunno. We are to lay hands people and they recieve the Spirit. Yes, Jesus is responsible, but remember, we are his hands and feed in the world, his body which does his work.

[Seth]

Like taking Mark 16:16 for example. "Whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved." What if someone believes but there is literally no water around to be baptized in? Will he be condemned if he dies before being water baptized, to fulfill that verse?

[eaglesway]

As I see it.....

We still tend to define salvation in the ET paradgim.

Sozo means heal/delivered/make whole/restore. Baptism heals and delivers. It is a part of the process that make us whole. It contributes to our restoration.

Justification comes through believing. Sanctification comes through a process. Discipleship. Obedience. Trials. And of course, the Spirit. Baptism is a part of the process.

If someone refuses baptism they are still justified by faith, but they are confused or disobedient perhaps. They are refusing the process of their own healing and restoration.

Peter proclaimed, "Be saved from this perverse generation."

As israel was saved through the Red Sea. One could say, "But it was the blood on the doorpost that saved them" and they would be right. Someone else would say, "But it was the burial of the strong man and his armies in the Red Sea that saved them" and they would be right. Someone else would say, "But it was the Spirit in the cloud and fire that saved them" and they would be right.

"These three agree in one, the blood, the water, and the Spirit"

On the cross, three things came out of Jesus when He died. He gave up the ghost(spirit), and blood and water pured out of the wound in His side.

Blood, water and Spirit.

The blood on the doorpost caused the death angel to pass over the firstborn of Israel. This is symbolic of Justification unto Life in the Spirit- Passover.

The water has to do with the obedience of faith, believing the word of God unto obedence and the washing of water with the word- Sanctification.

The Spirit has to do with resurrection power, "strengthened with might in your inner man so that you may now the heighth and depth and breadth of the love of Christ and be filled up to the fulness of God- Vivification

All of these save- and all of them save continually.

The Red Sea separated Israel from Egypt and buried the strong man. Paul called baptism a burial. I do not need to completely understand it. I don't need to justify it or even totally analyze it because that is a part of what it is supposed to bury in me. I can obey because of my faith in God, in His word.The strong man is the carnal mind. Submitting to the word of God in baptism is a step of faith in obedience to the word of God and it has its place, its function, and its rewards.

As do the laying on of hands and communion, when enacted in faith. But the things of the spirit are foolishness to the carnal mind, so what does man do?

Communion gets changed to transubstantiation(the actual flesh of Christ) or reduced to a simple ritual. The real efficacy of communion lies in between those two extremes, simply as the word declares,re-awakening our consciousness to the body of Christ and His sacrifice and our union in Him. We are eating the same bread. His body made us what we are-

22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

[eaglesway]

If there is no water around you wait till there is. God is very reasonable LOLOL. It is like the Sabbath.

Jesus said God made the Sabbath for man. He didnt make man for the Sabbath.

God made baptism to bless and to heal. Not as a law over which to hang someone.

[eaglesway]

If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.

[Seth]

If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.

Ok, so I agree with what you are saying in these posts that it's not really legalistic. What I meant was, if someone dies before receiving water baptism is he still condemned in sin? Should he fear judgment of the wrath to come. I think you and I woudo agree that he would not.

So I go back to Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Is Jesus talking about water or Spirit and how do you know?

[eaglesway]

If someone dies they dont need baptism. Baptism is for the living. It is a chain breaker, a blessing. Justification happens at believing, so if they die right away lacking baptism is not going to hinder them in any way that I could imagine.

Ok, so I agree with what you are saying in these posts that it's not really legalistic. What I meant was, if someone dies before receiving water baptism is he still condemned in sin? Should he fear judgment of the wrath to come. I think you and I woudo agree that he would not.

So I go back to Mark 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.

Is Jesus talking about water or Spirit and how do you know?

I do not believe baptism has anything to do with condemnation. If an Israelite had refused to go through the RedSea they would not have been condemned- they would have been taken back into captivity.

If someone did not get on Noah's ark they just drowned.

But there is a consequence for a believer who is disobedient- in my opinion. They lose the reward. The benefit that baptism gives, which as I have said, in my opinion is very real.

New believers never refuse baptism anyway. I have baptized hundreds of new converts in my lifetime. Only theologians refuse baptism(joke).

And even tho Israel was delivered from Egypt, they could go back if they wanted to, and many did in later generations. Baptism is not a guarantee, it is simply an operation that enables believers to bury their past.....and that is NO SMALL THING in my experience.

"the body of the sins of the flesh"

The flesh is already judged, nailed to the cross. In baptism it is buried, "the answer of a clear conscience".

[Seth]

Again, not disagreeing about many things there. But my question about what baptism Jesus meant in Mark 16:16 has gone unanswered.

I personally believe he was talking about Spirit baptism. Also, in Romans 6, I think he is talking about Spirit baptism. I believe we are baptized into his death by the Spirit,meaning that someone can be baptized into Christ's death and be resurrected to life without having touched physical water, because as Romans 6 says, he who is dead is freed from sin. Only the Spirit can make us dead to sin. Though clearly water baptism was done, I don't think that means that when you see the word "baptized" in the scripture, it automatically means by water, unless the context clearly says so. It could also mean by Spirit.

Just like in Mark 16:16, you have to draw a conclusion about what he meant even though he wasn't specific. To me that means there is a certain amount of interpretation that goes into it, at leas that's how I see it.

[eaglesway]

I understand what you are saying, and if it wasnt for the book of Acts I could entertain the notion. All of the types and shadows line up with Acts 2:38 for me. This was the practice of the early church, and in my opinion it wasnt ritual or tradition. I do not think Mark 16:16 is talking about the Spirit- it is too similar to Matthew 28 for one thing, But even without the gospels the case for water baptism is strong just through viewing the book of Acts.

I interpret the intention of Jesus with the body through the acts of the apostles as much as through the epistles.

34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. 36 As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?" 37 And Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Why did he ask this question? It was proclaimed to him as part of the gospel, just as Peter and Paul proclaimed it, and Jesus proclaimed it.

[Seth]

If Mark 16:16 is talking about water, then how can one be saved without water baptism?

[Seth]

Also I think about when Peter says that baptism saves us, not the washing of filth from the body but a clear conscious toward God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, I think clearly he is talking about Christ's baptism, I shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

If Peter had said "baptism does save us" and left it at that, would we all assume that he was talking about water baptism?

[eaglesway]

What does saved mean?

Where did this question- What if you dont do it? Come from?(speaking hypethetically)

Salvation is a gift. It is healing and restoration. It is not escape from hell. Jesus is not making law in mark 16:16. He is describing the process, instructing His disciples in the tools of their trade. Gettin folks out from under the world, the flesh and the devil- and into the new creation, healed and whole.

Otherwise there is only one other conclusion. The apostles didnt know what they were doing. They did not have the revelation we have. They practiced jewish traditions because they never got the teachings of jesus right. Only Paul understood and that not untill he had been ministering wron for a long time

[Seth]

Again, I'm not saying whether water baptism should or should not be practiced. I see e point on both sides. I just see that there are two baptisms. There is John's baptism by water. And there is Christ's baptism by Spirit. IF someone says that a non-specific occurrence of the word "baptism" automatically refers to John's baptism throughout the Bible, I just disagree with that. The fact that there are TWO kinds of baptism mentioned by Jesus and some instances of the word are not specific, I believe it requires interpretation to assume it always must mean water and should not be taken as a given.