repent and be baptized

[Tom]

I only mentioned the bride because you said "a marriage ring," but we've talked about the body and bride in other threads before.

[Caffus]

Jesus didn't follow the old testament law...thats mainly why they crucified Him. He and His disciples didn't do the ceremonial hand washing before eating. They pick food to eat on the Sabbath. Jesus healed on the Sabbath ect...Jesus did what was right, He did our Father's will. The written law is for those without the Living Law guiding them.

[lomarah]

To each their own in my opinion!  :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho.  :HeartThrob:

Hi lomarah,

We have a service for Baptism for anyone who wants it, it is a lovely service and it is done in the privacy of our church/temple/chapel/sanctuary/meeting place. I personally have never undergone this service although some others have asked me to help them take it.

I personally find that the Holy Communion service brings me into as much contact with Jesus Christ as I can take - it takes me quite a while to become re-orientated until the next one comes around. I find that Christ is already in me and I follow Him, and this has been so for a while and I do not feel any less for not having the Baptism service.

Peace in this life and forever more.

That is awesome lastpost. From the sounds of it your gathering is quite a blessing.  :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I only mentioned the bride because you said "a marriage ring," but we've talked about the body and bride in other threads before.

I understand, but at least in the individual sense Paul says "I have betrothed you to Christ"

I wish that you would bear with me in a little foolishness; but indeed you are bearing with me. For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin. But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ....

[lastpost]

To each their own in my opinion!  :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho.  :HeartThrob:

Hi lomarah,

We have a service for Baptism for anyone who wants it, it is a lovely service and it is done in the privacy of our church/temple/chapel/sanctuary/meeting place. I personally have never undergone this service although some others have asked me to help them take it.

I personally find that the Holy Communion service brings me into as much contact with Jesus Christ as I can take - it takes me quite a while to become re-orientated until the next one comes around. I find that Christ is already in me and I follow Him, and this has been so for a while and I do not feel any less for not having the Baptism service.

Peace in this life and forever more.

That is awesome lastpost. From the sounds of it your gathering is quite a blessing.  :HeartThrob:

Seeing that there appears to be no clear indication as to a "must" or "must not" (from what I gather from the scriptural arguments), I think your common sense testimony, if I can use that term, is probably the best guide in this issue for me!

Gathering a Blessing...it leaves me speechless to actually be transported back to that event and asked to take part in it, you understand.

[sheila]

  I can't help but conclude....'of man born of woman[manchild/seed of woman that crushes serpent head] there is

none more righteous than John the Baptist.  But he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

   John preached repentance and confession..and baptism as a prelude to Him who would take all your sins away

and baptize with Holy spirit and fire.

    It's all about the reconciling of the relationship......repentance..confessing and turning unto Him that can take away

   all your sin.[Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord]  the manchild being born is the 'born again' of God into

the spirit...the new creature being made in the image of God.....

 

[sheila]

..since Jesus come in flesh[the likeness of sinful] and was born of woman under the law[law for the lawless] in order

  to fulfill all righteousness.........the only thing righteous the wicked/sinful can do is confess and turn away from

that coarse[repent]

   he that is least in the kingdom of heaven..imo is related to the new spiritual regeneration and dominion that

   man in the image of God inherits over the lower beastly kingdom[man without understanding is like the beast]

  the mind of the beast/serpent more subtil than any beast of the field.Genesis 4;7 you must master it.

  the sin in the flesh that is condemned in all men under the law..is a lower kingdom/creation/creature...and the

only 'right' thing it can do is confess and repent.

[micah7:9]

Alternative Baptism

As a young preacher, my small church had limited facilities, so we held baptisms in a creek.  With alligators in the area, however, that was less than ideal.
Then a minister friend suggested I bring my next group of baptismal candidates to his church for a joint baptismal service.  Naturally, I accepted.
The baptismal pool had a clear front so the congregation could see everything.  When the baptisms were finished, curtains were drawn, and I was left alone in the pool for a moment.  The building had no air conditioning, and it was quite hot.  I thought how nice it would feel to take a little dip.  I glided to one end, turned, and backstroked to the other end.
Hearing a riotous uproar in the church, I looked toward the congregation.
The curtain was down only to the top of the glass!  An astonished and amused congregation had been watching my every move.

*Thanks to Pastor Tim for this joke!* From Crosswalk.com

[sheila]

 :laugh:  when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold.  we wore shirts and

  shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red!  I looked like I was

covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal!  everything turned red!

[sheila]

Mark 11;30  John's baptism-was it from heaven or from men? Tell me.  They discussed it among themselves..and said

  'If we say 'from heaven" then He will ask..'why didn't you believe him?" If we say 'from men" then there are the people

to fear,because everyone held that John really was a prophet"

[Psalm91:4]

I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added  Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and

the Holy spirit.  so when I was brought out and  taught about the salvation of all men.  I baptized myself

  all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.

   what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days?  the very churches He called us out of?

     :dontknow:  my ears are open

:)  Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs. 

When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen."    Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason,  I didn't care.  I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day!  :)  I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths.  Ain't religion something?!

And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him.  So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)

So, if there's one baptism now, which baptism is it, water or spirit?

"There is the vexed question of baptism. This was a Jewish rite and is usually translated "washing" in the "Old Testament." A Jew who broke the law had to bring a sacrifice to God and be baptized before approaching God. This for every time he sinned. The Baptist made it a rite significant of acceptance of the Messiah. No person can enter the kingdom without immersion in water. But now, baptism in holy spirit by our Lord alone can make us members of the body of Christ, and water baptism is no longer obligatory or of any use. To perform this command of the law now, is to fall from grace." (p234-Give the Jew his Due-Our Lord's Earthly Ministry-V13P2-Unsearchable Riches)

"In the later epistles there is but one baptism (Eph.4:5; Col.2:12); in the earlier there were not less than two, the real and interdispensational baptism into Christ's death (Rom.6:3) and a water baptism as connected with the witness of the kingdom (1 Cor.1:14-17; Acts 19:3-6). Besides these there was the baptism with holy spirit of the early Acts period, which came at least upon Cornelius' household and upon the Jewish believers at Pentecost (Acts 11:16), and the baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24) of the Gospels and Acts period, which was practiced by John and by our Lord's twelve apostles and other disciples (John 4:1,2). This was equivalent to the baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 22:16)." (p233-But One Baptism Now-Are The Bride And The Body Identical?-V17P2-Unsearchable Riches)

See the attachments. The third attachment explains why Paul participated in various Jewish rituals when he associated with the twelve.

http://concordant.org/ur/index.html

Okay Tom,  I read it.  Something is bothering me about the teaching primarily due to these verses which seem to go in the opposite direction entirely:

Matthew 20: 6 on....

16The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the hillside to which Jesus had directed them. 17When they saw him, they worshipped him, though some had doubts. 18Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

This was after His death and resurrection and before His ascension...so new covenant time.  He told them to go to all nations....and to water baptize those people...."to all nations."  The disciples elsewhere were told that the starting point was to be Jerusalem...

Luke 24:46 on...

46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Jesus  Himself commissioned them to do this.

That's my starting point on water baptism....has nothing to do with John's baptism or any Jewish OT ritual cleansing....law stuff.  This was new...and the "nations" are specifically mentioned.

[sheila]

 Psalms 85;10-13   Love and faithfulness meet togather; righteousness and peace kiss each other........

  v 13  Righteousness goes before him and prepares the way for his steps.

  mediation between parties at enmity with one another[reconciliation] one party confesses and repents of it's

  actions that caused the breach..and turns away from them..and to the one of whom it is seeking reconciliation with.

   the love and faithfulness of the one who did not cause the breach extends forgiveness..relationship healed

   and a returning unto God.

  how may a man cleanse his steps? Ps 119;9  Prvb 15;24  the path of life leads upward for the wise..to keep

him from going down to the grave..  I am returning unto my Father and yours.

  Christ the Mediator

[eaglesway]

Paul was not associated with the 12 in Acts 3. He was completey on his own when he met the disciples of John. First thing he asks them is "Have you recieved the Holy Spirit since you believed". When they answer, "We havent even heard of such a thing", Paul's first response is to ask, "What baptism did you receive?". They responded that they had received John's baptism.

Paul proceeds to explain baptism into Christ and proceeds to baptize them in Jesus' name.

He then lays hands on them and they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Standard Operating Procedure for the application of the New Covenant was and ought to still be(if we want to see the power of God manifest in evangelism -totally my opinion :o).

Repent and let everyone f you be baptized in the name of Jesus Chrit for the remission of your sins and you will receive the Holy Spirit- for the promise is to you and your children AND TO ALL WHO ARE AFAR OFF.

[Tom]

I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added  Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and

the Holy spirit.  so when I was brought out and  taught about the salvation of all men.  I baptized myself

  all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.

   what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days?  the very churches He called us out of?

     :dontknow:  my ears are open

:)  Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs. 

When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen."    Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason,  I didn't care.  I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day!  :)  I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths.  Ain't religion something?!

And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him.  So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)

So, if there's one baptism now, which baptism is it, water or spirit?

"There is the vexed question of baptism. This was a Jewish rite and is usually translated "washing" in the "Old Testament." A Jew who broke the law had to bring a sacrifice to God and be baptized before approaching God. This for every time he sinned. The Baptist made it a rite significant of acceptance of the Messiah. No person can enter the kingdom without immersion in water. But now, baptism in holy spirit by our Lord alone can make us members of the body of Christ, and water baptism is no longer obligatory or of any use. To perform this command of the law now, is to fall from grace." (p234-Give the Jew his Due-Our Lord's Earthly Ministry-V13P2-Unsearchable Riches)

"In the later epistles there is but one baptism (Eph.4:5; Col.2:12); in the earlier there were not less than two, the real and interdispensational baptism into Christ's death (Rom.6:3) and a water baptism as connected with the witness of the kingdom (1 Cor.1:14-17; Acts 19:3-6). Besides these there was the baptism with holy spirit of the early Acts period, which came at least upon Cornelius' household and upon the Jewish believers at Pentecost (Acts 11:16), and the baptism of repentance (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; Acts 13:24) of the Gospels and Acts period, which was practiced by John and by our Lord's twelve apostles and other disciples (John 4:1,2). This was equivalent to the baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 22:16)." (p233-But One Baptism Now-Are The Bride And The Body Identical?-V17P2-Unsearchable Riches)

See the attachments. The third attachment explains why Paul participated in various Jewish rituals when he associated with the twelve.

http://concordant.org/ur/index.html

Okay Tom,  I read it.  Something is bothering me about the teaching primarily due to these verses which seem to go in the opposite direction entirely:

Matthew 20: 6 on....

16The eleven disciples went into Galilee to the hillside to which Jesus had directed them. 17When they saw him, they worshipped him, though some had doubts. 18Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to obey everything that I've commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age."

This was after His death and resurrection and before His ascension...so new covenant time.  He told them to go to all nations....and to water baptize those people...."to all nations."  The disciples elsewhere were told that the starting point was to be Jerusalem...

Luke 24:46 on...

46 He told them, "This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

Jesus  Himself commissioned them to do this.

That's my starting point on water baptism....has nothing to do with John's baptism or any Jewish OT ritual cleansing....law stuff.  This was new...and the "nations" are specifically mentioned.

It's my understanding that the so called great commission points toward the coming kingdom of the heavens when Christ rules and when Israel will indeed be evangelizing the nations, which they aren't doing now and vehemently opposed when Paul did so after he was commissioned by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus outside Israel. As I've said before, the church has presumed to take the place of Israel for rejecting Christ because it's counting on its followers not knowing that was according to God's will. I think there is continuous confusion interpreting scripture by mixing what is written about Israel with the ecclesia, the body of Christ. Christ often spoke of "the eon," and most people seem to think that applies to this eon, but things said about "the eon" aren't happening now which should be a clue about what eon is being referred to. I know many people think the ecclesia is the "real" Israel, but I think the fulfillment of the promised coming kingdom of the heavens in Israel is just being paused right now until all the chosen have been called out of the nations.

"God does not thrust away His people whom He foreknew. Or have you not perceived in Elijah what the scripture is saying, as he is pleading with God against Israel? Lord, Thy prophets they kill, Thine altars they dig down, and I was left alone, and they are seeking my soul. But what is that which apprises saying to him? I left for Myself seven thousand men who do not bow the knee to the image of Baal. Thus, then, in the current era also, there has come to be a remnant according to the choice of grace. Now if it is in grace, it is no longer out of works, else the grace is coming to be no longer grace. Now, if it is out of works, it is no longer grace, else the work is no longer work. What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day. And David is saying, Let their table become a trap and a mesh, And a snare and a repayment to them: Darkened be their eyes, not to be observing, And their backs bow together continually. I am saying, then, Do they not trip that they should be falling? May it not be coming to that! But in their offense is salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy. Now if their offense is the world's riches and their discomfiture the nations' riches, how much rather that which fills them! Now to you am I saying, to the nations, in as much as, indeed, then, I am the apostle of the nations, I am glorifying my dispensation, if somehow I should be provoking those of my flesh to jealousy and should be saving some of them. For if their casting away is the conciliation of the world, what will the taking back be if not life from among the dead? Now if the firstfruit is holy, the kneading is also; and if the root is holy, the boughs are also. Now if some of the boughs are broken out, yet you, being a wild olive, are grafted among them, and became joint participant of the root and fatness of the olive, be not vaunting over the boughs. Yet if you are vaunting, you are not bearing the root, but the root you. You will be declaring, then, "Boughs are broken out that I may be grafted in." Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear. For if God spares not the natural boughs, neither will He be sparing you! Perceive, then, the kindness and severity of God! On those, indeed, who are falling, severity, yet on you, God's kindness, if you should be persisting in the kindness: else you also will be hewn out. Now they also, if they should not be persisting in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were hewn out of an olive wild by nature, and, beside nature, are grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much rather shall these, who are in accord with nature, be grafted into their own olive tree! For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering. And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins. As to the evangel, indeed, they are enemies because of you, yet, as to choice, they are beloved because of the fathers. For unregretted are the graces and the calling of God. For even as you once were stubborn toward God, yet now were shown mercy at their stubbornness, thus these also are now stubborn to this mercy of yours, that now they also may be shown mercy. For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all. O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!" (Romans 11:2-33)

See the attachments about The Great Commission.

[sorry about attachment removal.  it was unintentional.  there was a forum notice that the attachment folder was almost full, and it was supposed to remove attachments over a certain age and size.  i just realized it must have been the size limitation that got this one.  feel free to edit your post Tom and add your attachment again.  i'll try to adjust the size limitation.]

[attachment deleted by admin]

[gregoryfl]

Although I personally do view water immersion as having a continuous connection with the various immersions in the Tanakh...part of its importance, as far as what it represents, stems from its origins all the way back in Genesis 1...where the Creator chose to have the land exist immersed in the waters, moved by the fluttering of the Ruach, later to come up out of the water as land, where new life would now begin to appear.

Ronen

[Tom]

I think the flood in Noah's time was a water baptism too.

[Seth]

Yes, when Peter says receive the Spirit and save yourselves from this wicked generation, you can see that in Noah.

Noah's generation died in the water. The water separated Noah from his generation. Internally, and spiritually, this is what happens when one believes and receives. Their generation dies to them, not in the sense of separating literally away, but in the sense placed in the heavenlies (the vessel ascending) within the mind and heart.

[eaglesway]

I think the flood in Noah's time was a water baptism too.

Thats exactly what Peter says, And I agree  :banana:

[jabcat]

Yes, when Peter says receive the Spirit and save yourselves from this wicked generation, you can see that in Noah.

Noah's generation died in the water. The water separated Noah from his generation. Internally, and spiritually, this is what happens when one believes and receives. Their generation dies to them, not in the sense of separating literally away, but in the sense placed in the heavenlies (the vessel ascending) within the mind and heart.

:2thumbs:

[eaglesway]

At a very fundamental point Tom and I disagree so there is no possibility of agreement in this more superficial issue for us :)

I believe the same gospel was delivered "once and for all" by Jesus to the twelve during 3 1/2 years of discipleship and in the 40 days during which He appeared to them risen from the dead in Jerusalem, and then later, to Paul and Jude and some later apostles.

I do not believe this one gospel has changed in one iota snce then. That is why Paul says that after 14 years of ministry he went to Jerusalem to check his gospel against Peter's "To see whether or not he had run in vain." Peter was totally familiar with Pauls teaching and declared them scriptures in his own epistle. Peter was the first to minster the gospel to the Gentiles by the command of God.

Peter proclaimed the restoration of all things, ministering the same gospel to the Jews as Paul ministered to the Gentiles, because even tho Paul was ministering primarily to Gentiles after a point- Jews were constantly trying to re-introduce the law into the Gentiles within the churches. So- to the Romans Paul thoroughly explains the ONE OLIVE TREE. To the Ephesians he explains the ONE NEW MAN.

To the Galtians he explains that in Christ thee is no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free, no male no female- FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST.

This is the gospel Paul proclaimed in all theses Gentile congregations, and it is through Paul that we have the clearest explanation of the oneness of all the ecclesia, and the strongest exhortations to contend for the faith as it was delivered in the beginning.

Jude also says....

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

Ther has been no other gospel introduced by Paul or anyone. There has been no partition between Jews and Gentiles since the crucifixion of Christ, when the wall was taken down. There has been no evolution of the gospel since then and the covenant remains the same.

Baptism is a small issue measured by the weight of all the statements I made above about the gospel.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism- two gospels three divisions of the body and an evolution of the gospel fracturing and disarming the gospel as delivered through Jesus to the apostles?

I just dont think so. It is only my opinion and everyone must decide for themselves what is true. But, it is a strongly held opinion with scripture to back it up- so I hope by expressing it clearly I do not offend anyone.

Whether or not baptism had been a tradition in Judaism before Christ, John's baptism was from God. God affirmed it in speech and a manifestation of Shekinah glory at the baptism of His Son. Jesus cammanded them to baptize, and He did not do so out of respect for Jewish tradition, and the idea that Jesus was just speaking to Hebrews in the gospels(as Tom proposes) is incorrect in my opinion, and goes to my initial, and much more important, point.

There is only one gospel, only one new covenant, only one body, only one olive tree, only one Vine and whatever we may disagree about what it is or how we fulfill it-there is only one dispensation going on between the the resurrection of Jesus and the end of this age.

[Seth]

I absolutely agree. There's one Gospel. God is no respecter of persons just because they have different flesh (genetic code) That's why there's no Jew or Gentile in the body. All are one need man together under the same governing principle by which God judges us. One gospel.

[Tom]

I'm beginning to think I'm experiencing deja vu because the last Christian chat forum I was on before I came to this one had continuous debate between people who identified with either Covenant Theology or Dispensationalism. At least here, for the most part, universal reconciliation is agreed on, which is why I decided to visit this forum, but, since I've been here, I've seen that there are different interpretations of scripture similar to what I saw on the other site. I don't consider myself to belong to any school of theology. I think theology is just man's philosophy about God and scripture. I guess I would probably be accused of believing in dispensationalism though because I do think God deals differently at different times with different people in scripture, and I'm not into interpreting a lot of scripture figuratively. I just think I'm trying to understand scripture literally and only using figurative interpretation when forced to by context, which is how I think all literature should be interpreted to get a clear understanding of what it's intended to say. I've experienced conflict about immortality of the soul and eternal life here, neither which I see in an accurate translation of scripture. I've seen various other things debated too, especially when it comes to literal vs. figurative interpretation, and the issue that has just resurfaced involving the evangel. As with everything else, lots of verses are presented to support each side of the debate. I never used to be aware of a lot of what is being discussed on the forum. In fact, I used to be completely unfamiliar with scripture because, when I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church, we weren't taught doctrine from scripture. I was one of the lucky kids in the family who didn't have to go to Catholic school because I was the oldest of five and we were too broke, but I got the first half of my Saturdays ruined by sitting in catechism class if I couldn't manage to skip and go have some fun somewhere. That Catholic indoctrination class was where I was told my mom was going to hell for being Methodist. So, instead of programming me like they thought they were, that was when I started to plot my escape from the church when I was old enough to get away, but I digress. Theology seems to divide believers instead of bringing them together. That's why I wasn't interested in the debates at christianchat.com, and I still find theological debates boring. But it seems like, if you believe something after acquiring enough evidence to do so, you're going to have to defend your position continuously especially if you participate on a forum. I understand the idea of one evangel for Israel and the nations because that's what I used to believe until I got some more information, but I know there are some people who have seen some of the same information and still disagree. It just seems to make sense to me considering everything I've read about Israel and the nations in scripture despite the fact that I know most people aren't even aware of the idea of two evangels. This debate has occurred before more than once on this forum. So I'm just going to attach a few PDF files for anybody who is interested, and, as has been said, you can decide for yourself what you think makes the most sense. This isn't all there is on the subject, but they're a few articles to give the basic idea of what's up. Despite the fact that I present this information by other people and think it's true, I try to keep a open mind all the time because I want to know the truth. So, regardless of what I believe now, if I get some more information about anything pertaining to scripture that causes me to think I should change my mind about something because I realize something I didn't before, I'm not going to stubbornly cling to something just because I thought it was truth for a long time. It took me awhile to come to believe in universal reconciliation. I had to spend a lot of time searching for as much information as I could, while I was actually trying to disprove it, before I finally had to admit to myself that it had to be true because everything was confirmed by an accurate translation of scripture, not just an abundance of commentary. So, instead of clogging up this thread with a perpetual debate, here are some attachments for everybody's personal reading to help you decide what you think about all of it. It may take a couple of posts to get all these files posted due to the size limit, but here they are.   

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[Tom]

...continued for more attachments

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[Tom]

...one more.

These are just a few articles that I could dig up today, but, like I said, I think they'll give you the basic idea of why some people believe this.

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[lomarah]

:laugh:  when I was baptized in the winter..the water was warm and the old drafty building cold.  we wore shirts and

  shorts.. with an overlarge t-shirt over that..and my shirt was not colourfast and was red!  I looked like I was

covered with blood when I come out of the baptismal!  everything turned red!

:laughing7:

When I went under I somehow got water up my nose and came up choking something awful. Someone snapped a picture of me just as I was coming up. Needless to say it wasn't the prettiest of pictures.  :friendstu: