repent and be baptized

[Caffus]

I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out.  I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why.  As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts.  We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:

[rosered]

 
  Repent,   for the Kingdom of heaven is [at hand]  , in power    ,    I am  giving you my thoughts about it   

     Jesus Christ is the Voice of many waters   that are always calling

   You can in your own carnality miss out  , if you  like Peter was given the gift of grace to say Jesus Christ IS   the Son of God ....

  but later denied  Jesus Christ  3 times  before men   , Jesus knew He would but loved Peter anyways   ,,,,  and   Peter was cursing at himself for being such a failure   

  God gave   and  Peter took away   , But God  continued to deal with Peter .....God is long suffering that none should  perish    ,  HE KNOWS OUR HEARTS   and when the right time is to correct us and the right time to comfort us though His own Spirit of truth   

  Peter after  going though all this tribulation and correction  and trials of faith  as by fire to purge him  ,  became a    wonderful witness  to the glory of  God  and wrote of many things  about Jesus  and His revealing in the BOOK OF LIFE        We call the bible today ...   

  So the only confusion is within us,,   NOT HIS WORD

God bless you Caffus

[Tom]

I personally don't think everything everybody says in scripture applies to everybody even though that seems to be the popular interpretation. I think John the baptist was performing a Jewish ritual for Jewish people. I know the church borrowed it as it has a lot of other stuff that I think doesn't necessarily apply to those of us of the nations. I was told I was baptized when I was an infant as is common in the Roman Catholic Church. I left the church when I was young because I knew something wasn't right. Years later I tried the Protestant Church for awhile, and I decided to get baptized with full immersion because I thought I should according to the doctrine I was believing at the time. Now I don't follow church doctrine and don't think any rituals are necessary, and I think believers are baptized in spirit. I also don't think all the stuff that happened or was said with the Jews while Jesus was with them before he was crucified is about those of us of the nations. I think we're saved in grace, through faith and justified in Christ which is more than just forgiven or pardoned.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEvangel/Repentance.html

[rosered]

Yes   THis   was done   as well   
  But honestly until the WORD OF GOD applies to and speaks to you , you are only interpreting a history book  :sigh:

  1COR 10   

Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.


11Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.


12Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

[Seth]

I know John the Baptist and I believe some of Jesus's disciples would yell this out.  I would like a better understanding of the reason or reasons why.  As of now, I believe the Holy Spirit draws us to Christ and it is He that changes us as He wills and not by our own efforts.  We must surrender our will to Him out of love for Him. But we can only do that through Him. So whats the piont of yelling repent? :dontknow:

Going along with what Rose said. Consider this:

Romans 14
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

So to me it makes a lot of sense why John yelled repent. Without repenting, how will you have peace, or joy, or righteousness?

[Caffus]

Jesus was baptized...I think its symbolic for dieing to the flesh and being born again or resurrected in the Spirit. Jesus was perfect, He didn't have a carnal nature, yet it pleased our Father that He was baptized, I suppose because He was being obedient to be an example to us of what is right for us to do.  Jesus also taught us to take communion as a reminder of His life that was given for us. And a symbol of Him becomming a part of us as His Holy Spirit lives within us.  :dsunny:

[Caffus]

We can't be saved from our sin until we are made willing and able to repent of it and surrender to the will of God. However, this is not done of ourselves we are the work of His hands.  Which is what I believe is Biblical.  I hear a lot of non UR people talk about repentance, but it seems to me they believe this is by our efforts and not the work of God.

[rosered]

  Glory   to God in the highest   in the earth  as it is in heaven

  brother


13 And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,

14"Glory to God in the highest, And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased."


15When the angels had gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds began saying to one another, "Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which the Lord has made known to us."

The heavens praise God continually    for they know and are fully aware    of Gods loving goodness   ...
  We are  in the earth and    just by  the  faith  , that He granted ,    making  known the things  that are hidden from  mans eyes

When revealed  they do as they are  instructed    , just as these   did for an example of   works of faith being  obedient   to the call .. 

[eaglesway]

Baptism is obededience of faith. If it is done as a work it yields nothing. If it is done because of faith in the word received by grace through faith, it yields great salvation.....

But I cannot say this enough I guess :o)

It has nothing to do with salvation form hell and never did. That is a deception. It provides benefit through "faith in the operation of God" (Paul to the Colossians2:12)

The propensity for looking at every command as salvation by works, and every salvation as salvation from judgment is a deception rooted in ET theology and legalism.

Salvation is about being made whole, healed, delivered from this world system into the kingdom of God. If Jesus submitted to John's baptism to "fulfill all righteousness", at the very least- believers ought to do the same, but agin i will express this opinion... a thorough study of all the scripture on baptism shows that the apostles taught and ministered it- even tho, as Paul said, someone else may have done the actual baptizing(usually their disciples).

How anyone can think that because Paul said the he was glad he didnt baptize anyone means he thought it unimportant puzzles me, because he taught it in Romans and Colossians, and made a point of even rebaptizing John's disciple into the new covenat in Acts 19.

He was saying, (Paraphrase) "I am glad I did not baptize any of you since you are all so bent on glamorizing your leaders and I wouldnt want anyone to glory in my name- you were baptized into Jesus Christ"

IMO this is his only possible meaning, in light of his actions and teaching.

[Tom]

Jesus was Jewish. I think he followed the Hebrew law and customs of the Jewish people, but I don't think we of the nations are subject to the Hebrew law or are required to participate in any customs or rituals whether Jewish or otherwise. I think we just need to believe Jesus Christ died for our sins, was entombed, and roused from the dead through the glory of the Father.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: 'You shall love your associate as yourself.'" (Galatians 5:14)

As I said, I was told that I was baptized as an infant, and years later I got baptized again by full immersion in a lake in the mountains. But I didn't think it had anything to do with salvation, just submitting to a ritual that I thought was necessary at the time. I don't anymore though. I think we were chosen and guaranteed our salvation from the coming indignation before the disruption of the world, and our salvation from sin and death is guaranteed by the word of God as is all mankind. I think we believe because we're saved, not saved because we believe. I think we believers of the nations are baptized in spirit, which is not the same thing that the Pentecostal folks push. I think the ritual of water baptism is related to the kingdom of the heavens which will be the earthly kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ in Jerusalem in the coming eon. I think any rituals are unnecessary and not required to be in the ecclesia, the body of Christ. I think we just need to be believers.

"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)

[eaglesway]

The same man who wrote those verses spoke these words and practised them.

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

The reason we have the book of Acts is so we can see the practice of the apostles as well as read their words for the purpose of context.

Paul acted as he believed, and he taught what he practiced. Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice kind of denies that there even is any context.

[Tom]

I think Acts was a transition period, and Paul's evangel changed as time went by and he received new revelation. You could also accuse somebody of "Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice" even concerning God or Jesus. God operated differently at different times for different reasons, and before Jesus was crucified, he told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations. Then later he sent Paul to the nations. I don't think just because some things were practiced by the Jews in the time of Christ or some things took place in the Pentecostal era means we should assume they are still in operation today. In fact I think all the gifts of the spirit manifested then have been abrogated except faith, expectation, and love, and a time will come when there will be no more need for faith or expectation and only love will remain. If you want to practice water baptism, go for it. If you want to practice circumcision, go for it. I just choose to believe those aren't necessary. I don't think my interpretation of scripture is any less valid than yours. We just see things differently. I think there were things done in history at certain times by certain people for certain reasons that were right for that particular time and place, but that doesn't mean that's what's up now. There was a time that the Hebrew law was the way to serve God, but I don't think it's necessary or the best way to do so now even though there are many people who seem to think observing at least some of it is a good idea. I just don't think any ritual is necessary to worship God now. I just think we're supposed to love our brothers and sisters.

[rosered]

 

Amen ,  :thumbsup:  thanks Bro John !!

  merciful acts of kindness    ACTS is full of them works   !!!   

Matthew 12

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"

He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath."

Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

[lastpost]

Doing acts...

"Then Jesus said to him, 'Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.' At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.

The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, 'It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.' " [John 5:8-10]

And also not doing acts...

"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' " [Matthew 15:1]

[eaglesway]

I think Acts was a transition period, and Paul's evangel changed as time went by and he received new revelation. You could also accuse somebody of "Using snippets of his words to rebut his practice" even concerning God or Jesus. God operated differently at different times for different reasons, and before Jesus was crucified, he told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations. Then later he sent Paul to the nations. I don't think just because some things were practiced by the Jews in the time of Christ or some things took place in the Pentecostal era means we should assume they are still in operation today. In fact I think all the gifts of the spirit manifested then have been abrogated except faith, expectation, and love, and a time will come when there will be no more need for faith or expectation and only love will remain. If you want to practice water baptism, go for it. If you want to practice circumcision, go for it. I just choose to believe those aren't necessary. I don't think my interpretation of scripture is any less valid than yours. We just see things differently. I think there were things done in history at certain times by certain people for certain reasons that were right for that particular time and place, but that doesn't mean that's what's up now. There was a time that the Hebrew law was the way to serve God, but I don't think it's necessary or the best way to do so now even though there are many people who seem to think observing at least some of it is a good idea. I just don't think any ritual is necessary to worship God now. I just think we're supposed to love our brothers and sisters.

What I was saying about snippets is this. If you use excerpts of Paul's words to refute Pauls practice to are stepping out of the exegetical parameter and the common sense interelationship of his own teaching and action. At what point does this so-called evolution of Paul's evangel arrive at this conclusion? He wrote Colossians in prison, in the latter stages of his life and ministry, at that point he is still teaching the same thing on baptism he was teaching in Romans..

Jesus was speaking to Jews. Paul was in his primitive stage. God allowed Peter to continue hebrew traditions and Jewish laws. And whose word do we have for all that? That we should set aside the words of Jesus and the apsotles Paul and Peter?

The gift of baptism is the problem with baptism. It is just to simple to believe, to primitive to fit, to embarassing to submit. But as far as I can see, this is a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ from His mouth and from His apostles as well.

[Tom]

I think water baptism was a shadow of spirit baptism.

"I, indeed, baptize you in water, yet He shall be baptizing you in holy spirit." (Mark 1:8)

I think our "one baptism" is in spirit. 

"one Lord, one faith, one baptism" (Ephesians 4:5)

We're baptized into the body of Christ.

"For in one spirit also we all are baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and all are made to imbibe one spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:13)

I think John's water baptism was a baptism of repentance for the pardon of sins which is the requirement for entry into the kingdom of the heavens, the earthly kingdom in Israel, ruled by their Messiah in the next eon.

I think we of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are more than pardoned because we're justified gratuitously in God's grace through the deliverance in Christ Jesus and sealed with the holy spirit of promise. (Romans 3:24; Ephesians 1:13)

A pardon can be revoked. (Matthew 18:23-35)

There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus because where sin increases, grace superexceeds. (Romans 8:1; 5:20)   

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[eaglesway]

I think, I think, I think....

The quotes again are of Paul, who taught and practised water baptism.

I agree that baptism has nothing to do with justification, but baptism in water is still in effect and provides, if nothing else the benefit of obedience, one to which Jesus and all the apostles submitted to and practiced.

But its efficacy is a gift, as I see it.

I guess again, we will just have to agree to disagree :o)

Heb 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

[sheila]

 I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added  Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and

the Holy spirit.  so when I was brought out and  taught about the salvation of all men.  I baptized myself

  all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.

   what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days?  the very churches He called us out of?

     :dontknow:  my ears are open

[Tom]

"I think, I think, I think" should not offend you, brother. It's simply my humble way of showing I don't claim any authority. I think, I believe, my opinion, my perspective, my interpretation seems to be the way to acknowledge that it is simply my viewpoint because we all have a different one. We simply differ on baptism in that I think water baptism was a shadow of baptism in the spirit which is what brings us into the body of Christ. I agree that we should agree to disagree rather than cause any hard feelings about doctrinal interpretation. We agree that Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world, was entombed, and roused from the dead by the power of God, and through his blood on the cross reconciles all on the earth and in the heavens to God. I say that's worth celebrating rather than getting tense about other matters that would probably continue to be debated indefinitely. So peace, bro. Some day we'll all see everything more clearly, and I don't think there's going to be any "I told you so" going on because we're all going to be so amazed by the unconditional love and total peace of experiencing God all in all.

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[Tom]

Sis, I don't think we should get baptized into any denomination because, if we believe, we're already baptized in the body of Christ.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

Sheila,

I dont want to make a law out of baptism :o)

I have only said it is still in effect and provides a benefit that is more than pure ritual, which is both my experience and my opinion,

But you bring up a good point. Most of us are not new believers. I was baptized shortly after I was saved in the Jesus people movement, in 1975.

These days, having been out of the "church" for quite some time I would baptize a new believer myself. It is God who does the work, and gracious as He is, the operation is done regardless of the spiritual education of the believer, because it is for the newly saved as it was originally delivered.

I have seen the power of God come on new believers coming up out of the waters of baptism so many times- I personally will never doubt its effectiveness.

I believe in the early church, the ministration was repentence, baptism in water, and baptism in the Holy Spirit as a three-fold application of the gospel to establish new believers in overcoming power right off the bat. Obviously, as we can tell from the writings, the struggles were still there and false doctrines were working in the churches from the very beginning. But IMO, a good start with all the appointed spiritual "equipment" certainly helps.

We are not baptized into an organization, we are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[sheila]

  TY John.... :friendstu:

[lomarah]

To each their own in my opinion!  :girlheart:
I was baptized in a Baptist Church at the age of 16. It was one of the absolute best days/moments of my life. I had never had such peace and joy like that before. Do I think it was the act of water dunking itself? No, but what it symbolized spiritually that took place inside of me. An all-out full blown dedicating of myself to God and Christ, and a total assurance that I was His and He was mine. Do I think it's possible to have that without a water baptism? Sure! As each one feels led by the Spirit of God, that is what they should do, or not do imho.  :HeartThrob:

[Psalm91:4]

I was baptized in jehovah's wittness...and they added  Jehovah's organization into the name of God,Jesus and

the Holy spirit.  so when I was brought out and  taught about the salvation of all men.  I baptized myself

  all by myself in our lake..to rededicate myself to Him...and be washed clean of all those false doctrines I believed.

   what churches denominations should some-one get baptized into now days?  the very churches He called us out of?

     :dontknow:  my ears are open

:)  Your post made me smile, Sheila....that you baptized yourself when the Lord called you out of JWs. 

When I was a young Catholic girl, after getting home from school, my thing to do was to take white bread, squish it into little round shaped wafers and give it to myself..saying, "the body of Christ, amen."    Only the priests were supposed to be doing that....but for some reason,  I didn't care.  I'd go through a few pieces of bread doing that every day!  :)  I never told on myself either, in the confessional booths.  Ain't religion something?!

And to Tom...you mentioned a few posts up that you believe all we need to do is love God and one another..and I agree with that, of course....It's just that I think obeying what He said to do is loving Him.  So I guess your position is that you don't think He said for all believers to be water baptized.....but I'm not seeing that in scripture, even though I do agree we are baptized into Christ as you have shared.
I think water baptism is also an experience, generally, of confessing Him publically, before men.

[sheila]

 :laugh:    God help us all...  I just made up my mind to follow the scriptures and worship Him all by myself if I had to.

   and I had to for awhile...and I would not trade that expierence for nothing.  The most wonderful time

  of my life.     :HeartThrob: