Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[sheila]

yes..because God's spirit is all that is in them[no evil rebellious spirit]  I MAKE all things new.

[Dandelion]

My take on works, is that they are important, but occur when we allow God access to our lives, and not by our own power. When we believe in Him, have faith in Him, and trust Him to direct our lives, then we are in His will, and our actions and deeds will reflect this. We are the body of Christ....in Him we live and move and have our being. It says in the Bible, without Him, we can do nothing.

He is the one from whom all good comes. There is no light, except for the Light of the world, Jesus. As long as we are in His Light, our deeds will reflect this light...this love from God.

I do not pretend to know how this works for unbelievers. It says in the Bible, that God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike. I would not be surprised, if, insofar as they can receive it, God gives His grace to them, in some way, as well. God's ways are not ours. Perhaps some works are of the flesh and some of the spirit. This is something I do not completely understand, and for now, it will need to be this way.....unless one of you can give me a convincing insight into it....... :gimmefive:

...44"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?... Matthew 5: 44 - 46

:2c:

[rosered]

AMEN !! :dsunny:     :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

I believe God saves us entirely. There is no place where the scriptures say anything different. But we must respond to God, there are a hundred places in the scriptures that say that.

"The one who says he loves God but hates his brother walks in darkness still."

Is that man saved? He says he loves God. He says he believes.


Lord, Lord, didnt we do mighty works inyour neame?......Depart from me yu lawless ones, into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

What were they saved from?

They new of his atoning death and resurrection, but they did not know Him. And their works proved it!

So is it about works? NO. It is about knowing Him. Knowing Him is salvation. Connection to the Vine involves repentence. If there is no repentence there is no faith, no change, no grace, no healing.

Does God give it? Certainly. It is the gift of God lest anyman boast.

But it definitely involves a change of heart and mind, which the scriptures call repentence among other things. THAT IS THE HEALING, a RENEWED MIND, and eventually it will manifest.

In my opinion to discuss "salvation" from a point of view that takes two or three scriptures and tries to limit it to those verses is just old fashioned denominational thinking.

Jesus said that eternal life is to know the Father and Jesus whom He has sent. It doesnt say that eternal life is "knowing ABOUT" the Father. He says it is knowing Him. Salvation is knowing Him.

This is where the issue is concerning salvation- not doctrinal lines of where it ends or begins. It begins and ends with "KNOWING HIM" and communing with Him- thats where the transmission of grace is taking place for growth in the salvation received by MEETING HIM.

Depart from me you lawless ones I never knew you......."But Lord, LORD...."

"But Lord, didnt I believe you died for me and were raised from the dead?"

"I was thirsty and you gave me drink"

I am saying that this whole focus on exactly where the line is between salvation by works versus salvation by grace is a huge red herring.

Salvation is by grace through faith. IT IS AN INTRODUCTION INTO A RELATIONSHIP. It produces good fruit and good works and a heart toward God and if it doesnt it isnt saving.... save Greek- sozo, to deliver, heal, make whole, restore.

I always get curious about how we get so into the greek and Hebrew until we get to this word "saved".....

At that point it seems all scholarship and common sense flies out the window.

To be "saved" is to be

delivered -from being an adversary of God

healed- in the mind body and soul

made whole-taken from brokeness and brought into strength

restored- to become a child of God ministering as a disciple of the Savior

This happens through a connection  "I am the true vine"  "If you abide in me your fruit shall remain"  "If you do not abide in me you will be withered as a branch, cut-off, gathered and thrown into the fire"

This is the picture Jesus Himself draws and it is all about salvation and how it works. This desire to make it an issue that focuses on "What you know" and "What you believe about this or that" it really just old time religion.

If you know Him and He knows you, you have been saved, you are being saved and you will be saved- if you continue in relationship. If you continue faithful, if you abide.

If you do not respond to God you will be withered, and eventually cut off. That is kolassis for ya. But you have to be really willful and disobedient for that to happen because I have struggled and failed a thousand times on a thousand fronts but God has been robust in His love for me and grace towards me.

The whole "losing salvation" discussion for instance- is another BIG red herring.

DO YOU KNOW HIM. Where is Jesus in your life today? Are you connected? You say you don't feel connected? Let's talk about that. You say you are struggling with some sins? Let's talk about that! You say you are afraid God is judging you? Let's talk about that!

Let's get in closer to Jesus together and talk about it. Get your salvation off the drawing board and bearing fruit TODAY, IN YOUR LIFE.


Lets work it out with awe and reverence, calling upon Him together.

And let me tell you, if you arent interested in pressing in, in struggling, in seeking- you wont likely see it happen. You will struggle on in bondage wondering if you are saved or not instead of BEING SAVED though KNOWING HIM and ABIDING IN FELLOWSHIP with Him

If a plant is in the ground and oft drinks the rain and produces no fruit it is good for nothing but to be cut down and burned.

But a plant WILL bear fruit if it is CONNECTED and RECEIVING RAIN AND SUN.

So salvation is about the connection. That is how it starts- get connected. That is how it stays- maintain connectivity. Thats how we get out of this world alive- connected to God in Jesus Christ, and He will do that work if we stay connected.

"For it is God who is in you to will and work of His good pleasure".

If there is no will to work His good pleasure, perhaps He is not in there, or never was, or the connection has been interupted somehow.

Time to seek, time to dig.

[Seth]

I do not pretend to know how this works for unbelievers. It says in the Bible, that God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike. I would not be surprised, if, insofar as they can receive it, God gives His grace to them, in some way, as well. God's ways are not ours. Perhaps some works are of the flesh and some of the spirit. This is something I do not completely understand, and for now, it will need to be this way.....unless one of you can give me a convincing insight into it....... :gimmefive:

Here is what I believe in a nutshell to answer your question: God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. But even his resistance is productive and in love. I believe for those who say they are Christian but mock God (Romans 2) and also the unbeliever, the works of the flesh are themselves a punishment. For example:

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [v]haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

I think it's pretty fitting that Paul opened the book of Romans by establishing the problem then later describing how God he intends to solve that problem through the resurrection life of Christ internal. As Peter says, baptism saves us, not the washing of filth by water, but a clean conscious by the resurrection of Christ. We are saved by his Life.

Yes, God is kind to his enemies. In fact, he knows exactly what they need, even if it includes RESISTING the proud, he's got a reason for it, because his judgments result in a desire for Life from the dead.

[rosered]

 :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

Found this inspiring  by Corrie Ten Boom

"I have held many things in my hands," Corrie once said, "and I have lost them all;


    but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that, I still possess."

I am reminded of Jesus saying Martha's   name twice   and cannot help but think , He was speaking to her doubleminededness   

Being in the world and of it and trying to be  pleasing to God   with all her working    and discontent ..   

  and Jesus told her , about Mary who sits at Jesus feet  to learn of Him        and what she has no man can steal or rob  from her ...





Luke 10 41But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things;



42but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her."


  the nessesary thing  was to listen to the Lords Voice and be healed !!!!!       

        Being in CHRIST one mind,, one body ,,one spirit ,,,one   LORD OF ALL    and savior  of all mankind .... 

[Tom]

I think God saved Saul, the foremost of sinners according to him, who didn't seem to deserve it because he was killing believers, but then Saul, later known as Paul, became the apostle to the nations not to save himself but as a result of his salvation. I think God chose certain people to be in the body of Christ way back before we even existed, even before the creation of mankind. (Ephesians 1:4) You can talk about salvation all kinds of ways and being saved from different things, but I think the whole purpose of the law was to demonstrate that man can't save himself. That's why Christ fulfilled the law. Everything comes from the Father to us through Christ including salvation from sin and death and the coming indignation. God creates evil and subjects us to it to humbles us, and God saves us from evil. We're saved in grace, through faith, and we can't help but produce good works that are the result of our salvation because God's love is so powerful that we're compelled to do so out of love not to try to save ourselves through works. Of course it should be evident to all that our life has changed, and yes it is possible to profess faith falsely. I think there are many people who go to church maybe every Sunday who do it out of habit or because they think they're expected to, but they don't act like they love their brothers and sisters. We shouldn't condemn them though because only God knows their hearts. I think it's great that folks do good works for their fellow human beings, and I think those of us in the body of Christ will be requited for works with the foundation of Jesus Christ at the dais where we'll be "saved" as through fire when our unworthy works are burned up. But ultimately I believe God is the savior of all mankind, especially of believers, not because we're more worthy due to our works, but simply because we've been chosen to receive the grace of God for eonian life in the celestial realm. I know God loves unbelievers though, and they're only unbelievers because they haven't been given faith by God. That's why God will eventually even save the unjust from death at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.   

[Seth]

I doubt anyone can look at my words honestly and come to the conclusion that I think we can save ourselves.

[eaglesway]

I agree with that Seth :)

[rosered]

      Yes Seth,   I do  to  understand your point ...


I know we are to be  diligent and
sober minded

7casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. 8Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.

  Our work is in pleasing Him  .... in my  most humble opinion    brother     

[sheila]

 re; post number 64..agree with..especially your pointing out the adversary...accusor of the brethern intercepting.

   I also don't think anyone that agreed with the original post can be accused..of being arrogant against

the natural branches.

    many of us have come out of churches[and many still coming out] where we have been beat about the head

  with some of the scriptures regarding works and the lack of dividing the scriptures rightly in it.  Very new

buds of faith can be snuffed out.   Lot's of churches have doctrines of men that legalisticly 'outline' such works

that they approve..to be approved..  ex jw's 5 meeting a week,personal family bible study 1 hour a week...

field service[knock on doors in community] at least 2 1/2 hours a week....and you are judged by them if you

are in good standing with GOD by these criteria.

    food at the appointed time...feed my sheep..but if ever you beat them..the Master will return at a time when you think

not.

   many of us have been in the faith for years and years before those scriptures were rightly divided for us

  and didn't have the ring of the accusor accussing us night and day with them..or have our hope in Him dashed

to the ground by men using the scriptures as a club to beat us down in Him..instead of building us up.

[Seth]

Sheila, here is the question of the OP

They believe that Christ died as a good example to follow and if they somehow do Christ's commandments, they will be saved.

What do you think about this?

I think that if they follow Christ's commandments they will be saved. So, I agree with them. I just disagree with their view of Hell. To be saved from "this wicked generation" you must follow Christ's commandments, and they are not grievous: believe in Jesus and love your neighbor (1 John 3:23). Yes, I do believe you must follow those commandments to be saved from SIN.

Call me crazy but I think those two commandments build up rather than beat down.

[sheila]

 well, I understand your reasoning Seth. but the problem is if 'THEY" somehow do them...we know nothing good

dwells in our flesh..but the spirit of God  will do the works in us.and the salvation is always by grace not works

   you can do nothing of yourselves[saved by grace] abide in me[grace]

    many come in the name of Christ[somehow doing His commands/casting out demons etc..great works! so why

  weren't they saved from their sin?  what was their iniquity? lack of the spirit/grace[love]

  so even great works like casting out demons..or any other works..get's you nowhere..without the Love of God and

  love your brother as yourself.

  so taking pleasure in iniquity[ lie of hell ET for your fellow man/slander on God's name that He would do this]

  they are under a delusion/confusion of Babylon spell that we were called out of.

   I'm not going to speak of it much more..I know you are not legalistic or works based salvation.  a gift of grace is what

we are all saved by.

   iniquity-lack of righteousness OR JUSTICE..........loving our brothers as ourselves..we want to do right by them

   a cheating pair of scales...   works without love is a clanging cymbol  Psalms 150;5  PRAISE HIM WITH THE CLASH

  OF CYMBOLS,PRAISE HIM WITH RESOUNDING CYMBOLS..  works done in GOD/LOVE..........

[lastpost]

Seth, I agree, the Commandments of Christ to love God and others as He loved us, are, in my opinion, not given their fair weight and are all-important.

My personal belief according to what I belief to be the instruction of the Holy Spirit, is that when we are judged, the Commandment to love others will be a judge of ourselves - we will see our whole time allotted to us and how we spent it, we will see the suffering we caused others because we failed to help them when we were able to do so, we will see the pain we caused others because we took for ourselves more than we needed and in so doing others were denied, and so on.

For me, a very serious Commandment.

I went for a walk in the countryside today, and quite honestly, I felt Jesus Christ everywhere, inside and outside. I found myself saying His name aloud. I know I am a sinner but when I do something for others, I know it is because of His Grace which has saved me and given me back a life to live in Him and with Him in living in me.

So, because Christ is my Saviour and He gives me life, I cannot lift my arm without His power - does this mean that by doing acts for others according to His Commandment I am nullifying His life in me and my life in Him? I really do not see how a doctrine stating that I can do nothing towards my salvation because it is by Christ's Grace, has any bearing on this. Sometimes I think that the Pharisees live again with legalism suffocating the Christ at work.

I think the problem may perhaps be that some people consider these commandments of Christ to be an 'add on' to salvation, almost as if they can be ignored as long as one has accepted and performed the given criteria for salvation.

In my opinion, such as these are gravely misled. I mean to say, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, said:

"  'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" [Matthew 22:37]

That is an important set of Commandments.

Peace.

[Seth]

So, because Christ is my Saviour and He gives me life, I cannot lift my arm without His power - does this mean that by doing acts for others according to His Commandment I am nullifying His life in me and my life in Him? I really do not see how a doctrine stating that I can do nothing towards my salvation because it is by Christ's Grace, has any bearing on this. Sometimes I think that the Pharisees live again with legalism suffocating the Christ at work.

To me, legalism is anything beyond the two commandments Christ gave us. To say that we can be saved without doing the commandments of Christ rings false to some folks, maybe because there's whole swathes of scriptures that seem to say otherwise.

If the statement is "we cannot be saved by our own works" I agree.

If the statement is that "works have nothing to do with salvation at all" I have to disagree and I don't even think that makes common sense (take pedophilia for example), and such a statement runs headlong into James 2, Romans 2, Titus 2 and 3 and so on.

[eaglesway]

We are to exhort one another to love and good works. God decides whether or not the works are done in love out of the perfect law of liberty. He then communicates with us by the spirit, testing our works by the Spirit, in the Day. This is how we grow into the image of Christ as we walk with Him, working out of the life that is within us, and the love.

"I am He that tries the reins and the hearts".

We are told not to do our good works to be seen, for instance. To not let our right hand know what our left hand is doing when giving alms. To pray in secret rather than before men. To pray simply rather than to use vain repitions or long flowery holy sounding words.

This of course does not mean that such works are unimportant to our life in Christ, or that there are no aionian consequences of whether we do them or not.

"I was thirsty and you gave me no drink"

"If you say go and be warmed and filled" but give nothing to the need, what good is that, doesnt prove that you faith is in vain?"

"Pray without ceasing"

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting."

Now someone will begin to teach that if you are not walking with your hands up, or if you dont lift your hands when you worship God will not receive it.....

Then someone somewhere else will forbid the lifting up of hands as "works" based worship.

All of it nonsense, because we cannot rightly divide the word of God until we have been rightly divided, which is my point.

He tries the reins and the hearts. We seek to do the work because we understand what is is, who it is for, and why we do it- if we do it, if we understand.

Now as to justification and the assurance of acceptance by God- this is purely by grace through faith, and if it is real, the works will follow as love and light grows within us, and if it is of gold silver and precious stone, it will produce fruit that will abide- some 30, some 60, some 100 fold.

But some also struggle with assurance because they are not properly armed against the wiles of the Father of lies.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel.

[sheila]

   BRAVO!!!!!!

[Seth]

Yes, alot of legalism creeps in when people add commandments and try to take power. As for whether or not "just believing, God considers you righteous" I think the answer is layered. I believe initial justification occurs on the point of faith, but Apostle James talked about how faith needs to be made perfect, or complete, such as how the body without the spirit is dead.

Do I believe that "just believing God, God considers righteous" a man who believes that Christ was risen from the dead, who also continues to molest children? Nope. I don't believe God considers him righteous only because he believes that Jesus was risen from the dead. Even the demons believe that. Notice that James does not say that the demons don't really believe. He says the demons believe and they tremble. If the answer is that a person who continues  to molest children after he believes shows that he doesn't really believe, I think that's six of one half a dozen of the other. Faith without works is dead being alone, because the faith has not been matured being alone. I do not believe that dead faith justifies, and I don't think Apostle James did either.

[eaglesway]

I think just believing is enough, if it is the belief in Him that makes a connection. Life will flow through the connection, works will follow naturally. But I wonder about the believing of those unto whom Jesus said, "Depart from me".

Obviously their belief was not sufficient, and Jesus measured them by their deeds.

There is no way around that. It is there all over the word.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Clearly there is a connection between the belief that follows Him and the one that doesnt- it is a distinction made clearly over and over again in both testaments, and especially since it is made by Jesus our Savior and Lord, I believe it must be acknowledged.

We can not do a work that will make us righteous, it is the gift of God through Christ Jesus, but if we are connected to Him, He is in us to will and to do of His pleasure- works prepared from the foundation of the world, that we should walk in them.

"If you do by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh, you shall live."

"Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"

How do we do that?

As you received the Spirit(hearing with faith-Gal 3) so also walk in it.

We received Jesus by grace through faith whenHe drew us, we reached out to Him, and He received us- we can analyze it all we want to, but...

The Bible could just say.... "Love God and love everybody and you will be fine." But we are thick and we are selfish, so much more is written in order to renew our minds and keep us in the truth, and so that we understand what it means to "Love God and love everybody" and are equipped to do it. :o)

[Seth]

I think just believing is enough, if it is the belief in Him that makes a connection. Life will flow through the connection, works will follow naturally. But I wonder about the believing of those unto whom Jesus said, "Depart from me".

Obviously their belief was not sufficient, and Jesus measured them by their deeds.

The way I see it is not that belief was insufficient, but not made perfect, or complete. That's the way Apostle James said it. He said that Abraham had faith, but he also made his faith complete with works. That is why I think that Jesus says "Depart from me." I think he says that to those who believed but the faith was left to whither away and die like a body that is left without the spirit.

[sheila]

    I didn't have that helmet of salvation until I had the salvation of All...as long as only a few were saved..I figured I didn't

  stand a chance. add the  legalistic works based salvation 'church' on top of that..and wala!


   the greatest fear of a child is to be rejected by their parent.  children will take all kinds of abuse from their parents

  and still love them and cling to them.....

  little children need the security of their parents/Father's love...then they can grow and blossom and bloom and bear

fruit.  Lot's of times you can tell an abused child by their behaviour...they are either extremely well behaved...

or on the opposite end of the spectrum...acting out in all kinds of mis-behaviours.

[Seth]

the greatest fear of a child is to be rejected by their parent.  children will take all kinds of abuse from their parents and still love them and cling to them.....

Something ironic about that because the kind of child that has such fear would be comforted by God. And yet, I don't know if you recall, God describes a certain kind of his children that have no fear of him at all, no concern about what they do in this world, who take pleasure in iniquity with great pride and seek to convert as many as they can to their way. So, those who do fear God shouldn't, and those who don't fear God probably should.

[sheila]

EW I think it was the same ones John the Baptist said..'ye offspring of vipers! who showed you.....therefore produce fruit

   in keeping with repentance.{Parisee;s/Sadducees]  the religious leaders who heaped up heavy loads under the

  law impossible to bear..but were not willing to lift their little finger to lighten the load.  the ones of whom He said..

  'do all that they say..but don't do as they do..for they say and do not"  they didn't do what they told the people to do

  but they had no problem condemning/judging the people with iniquity[cheating scales]

   not many of you should be teachers

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  Seth! and because of this.....Comfort ye,comfort ye my people, Speak tenderly to Jerusalem

tell them their hard service is over.

   Isaaih 40;1  that her sin has been paid for....a voice of one calling in the desrt

[sheila]

EW more scriptures.  Matthew 12...and if  I drive out demons by Beezebub..by whom do your people drive them out?

   and this...those who deny me before men..I shall deny before the angels[harvest workers/seperation]

   also this   Lord was title for God...and he who has the Father has the son. and Jesus Christ come in the name of the Father

  and reveals the Father to us.  and if you do not know Jesus Christ..you do not know the Lord.

   and those that deny Jesus before men..He deny's before the angels....

   that being said...the offspring of vipers in the seat of Moses[law covenant] were in the bodies of the religious leaders

   in that day...iniquity in them..condemned an innocent man.  try the spirit's..for he who denies that the word

  of God come in flesh.....and the charge of blasphemy for saying He was the son of God,