Just believing God, God considers you righteous

[rosered]

Right, Isaac became a symbol of those who received the Holy Spirit, and therefore the fruit that they produced is not by their own, as contrasted against Ishmael who symbolizes those who are pursuing righteousness under the Law. But those symbolized by Isaac do produce good fruit by the water that comes from the earth into the Vine and through to the branches. As Paul said, if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. And so when Jesus compares himself to a Vine in John 15, he is encouraging the same. There is a difference between branches that stay on the Vine for more PRUNING, and branches that whither and die and are cut off the tree. So back in Romans 11, I believe Paul is reinforcing that by saying that though they were grafted to the tree by faith, they better check their arrogance against the natural branches or God will cut them off too. How far will imputed righteousness carry us if we become cut off the tree for arrogance?

  I believe this is because they  are like Paul said , the jews seek a sign all the time and the  other nations knowledge


  Both are missing the mark  to me      ,
It is the LOVE OF GOD    THAT FULFILLS THE WILL OF  GOD      this powerful and moving energy source    of HIS OWN SPIRIT AND TRUTH OF IT   ,  the witness  in the earth     testifies of it .. and Jesus Christ is HIS NAME    all   power was given to the SON     ,   THE SON WAS SENT BY GOD LAST    to prove this     

  That the LIGHT HAS COME     AND THE DAY IS HERE       AND no one can see      the DAY   AND LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GODS SPIRIT MOVING   in mankind   by the source of His gift of LOVE TO US 

Their own carnality strives again the Spirit   believing there must be more than this ???

  Its cannot be this simple     or pure and holy  and  meaningful     
  Our own flesh cannot even touch the purest      LOVE OF GOD     , they have been separated for a     long time now  , but time has no meaning to Gods plan     

Hebrews 4

  Hebrews explains alot of why we cannot      ''get close to God   while being physical   creatures    no different than beasts   of whom also He created on the sixth day     ,

  it is so hard and    crude  and everything against Gods nature   proven  of just how  far  man will go  to exalt himself against everything  in this life   God made even them    ,   even God himself  to  utter blasphemy  :sigh:  denying their   very maker .   

  ONLY HE CAN    have mercy on Whom he will  have  mercy  and harden    whom He will    harden    to the   point  of   a fire blown , broken pieces of   of a ready heart    to receive Him  , this he will not despise     , and it   is what it takes
   to change some
It is our   hearts revealed      to God and what love is there or the lack there of    His eyes are ever before us all        ...



   

[rosered]

I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.

  Amen  no man can know the depths of Gods Love    , He is the proven    source  and power of ALL    LIGHT AND LOVE that ever come into being     
No words can describe this powerful   action  of what LOVE really is ,    none know till they can experience it for themselves  and it will be   just as the knew all along   , but never understood it  like,,, all revelation  is  coming forth from Gods truth and Spirit  .. there is no other source      , we can only know some of it by walking in the Spirit  and out of the body of death      ,  some never do till the body of death is totally out of the way    for good



IT IS GODS  LOVE that saves   the world !! 

[Tony N]

In Romans 11 Paul says that they were grafted to the tree by faith, but that if they should become arrogant, they can be cut off.

Romans 11
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Grafted on due to faith, cut off for arrogance. Behold the kindness and severity of the Lord. This is where the book of James comes in, where he says that Abraham's faith was counted for righteousness when he not only believed God but also acted in accordance with that belief. This has nothing to do with works of the Law but of the Hebrew concept if faith, which goes beyond simple belief, but into the idea of "faithfulness."

Not quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.

Also in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.

[Tony N]

The basic message I get from Romans 11 is that even if one thinks God considers him righteous no matter what he does, because of doctrinal belief in God, you might want to keep in mind that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. I don't believe that God considers rapists to be righteous just because they believe in God. The branches must remain on the tree and produce fruit or be pruned.

Seth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."
Again, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations. Individual believers can never be cut out of Christ. Even the Corinthian boy caught having sex with his dad's wife was given over to Satan so his spirit would be saved. But the boy is still righteous in God's eyes though he did need disciplining. Nothing can separate us (believers of the nations) from the love of God. We are sealed with the spirit of promise for the day of deliverance.

[Tony N]

Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?

In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.

[ed]

Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?

In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.

That is an interesting doctrine Tony, I have been in groups that believed just as you say. 

You can be a Christian who believes as you say and yet walk in darkness, conformed to this world.  In God's eyes you are exactly that.  God's desire is that we walk in the light as He is the light.  We can't do that if we don't see the sin and think that we are righteous even though we choose to sin.

There is also sin that we don't see because we have not yet matured enough to deal with it.  God works with each individual believer and their sin issues.  That is why I say yes we are righteous in the moment, when we are submissive to God's lead, and walk in that righteousness.  It is still faith.  It is impossible to please God without faith.

[Seth]

Not quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.

Right, that means James is not dealing with works of the Law in his statement, but works that proceed by faith. That is why he begins James 1 by talking about how we are born again by the will of God, not by our own works, then proceeds, like Paul, to say that if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk according to the Spirit.

Also in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.

In Romans 11, Paul is contrasting BELIEVERS vs UNBELIEVERS not nation vs nation. The natural branches were cut off because of UNBELIEF. The wild branches were grafted in because of belief. Nobody can be grafted onto the tree except that he first believes. Nobody can haplessly be part of the olive tree just because he is a citizen of a particular nation, but only because he beliefs.

So, Paul's message is that BELIEVERS can be grafted in by belief and BELIEVERS can be cut off due to arrogance.

Seth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."

The book of Hebrews does not name itself "The book of Hebrews" so that title is irrelevant as proof of anything. Again, Hebrews is talking about believers having returned to sin after having received full knowledge of the truth.

Again, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations.

That is impossible because it says that a person can be grafted to the tree WITHOUT BELIEF. ONLY BELIEVERS are grafted to the tree, not whole nations regardless of faith. Just because someone is a member of a worldly nation does not automatically make one grafted to the tree.

Again, we are grafted to the tree by BELIEF. We can be cut off for arrogance.

[ed]

I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

the righteousness that comes by faith says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

James said, "You believe God is one? the devils also believe and tremble.

I believe a person may be in immense bondage, but be considered righteous, if they believe and agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He was raised after being crucified for us.

A person who walks willingly towards darkness is not a believer. A person who is bound in darkness may be a believer, and will be delivered one way or another.

Paul put it like this in Romans 6

Just as you used to offered yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The spark of a desire to walk with Christ is the evidence that Christ is in us and we are in Him, no matter how bound in failure we may be. It is the beginning of the process and the "Let there be light" spoken into our chaos.

Ro 7:21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

So the repentence that accompanies faith brings us into Christ, the process is to get free from the slave, which occurs through grace and the renewing of the mind by the Spirit.

There is no entering Christ by a faith that involves no repentence because repentence is simply a change of mind that accompanies faith in Him as Savior and Lord. A recogniton of His Lordship and the nature of it(the love walk) is a part of that believing. So, if sin abounds in a believers life, grace will abound all the more. God will see only that desire in the heart to be in union with Him regardless of the bondage. That is why Paul says the foundation of God is sure and bears this engraving, "The Lord knows those who are His and let every one who names the name of the Lord turn from(in the heart attitude) iniquity."

I hope we are not dancing around fine lines or differences in perspective and terminology- but if we are saying that recognition of His lordship and submission to it at least in heart desire is not a necessary facet of the faith that delivers/makes whole/saves, I would disagree.

The subjection of adversaries begins with the heart won by love through a revelation of who Jesus is.

[eaglesway]

I believe sin is missing the mark of love. That's why the Law is hung upon love and why sin is lawlessness.

:thumbsup:

Sin misses the mark. Love makes up the difference.

[Tony N]

Can you tell when you are righteous and when you are not?

In God's eyes, the one who believes Him that Christ died for our sins/offenses, was entombed and roused the third day, is righteous no matter what.
That does not mean we can do whatever we want in sinning because God will see to it we will need disciplining should that be the case. Yet in His eyes
we are still righteous just as Abraham was for just believing God.

That is an interesting doctrine Tony, I have been in groups that believed just as you say. 

You can be a Christian who believes as you say and yet walk in darkness, conformed to this world.  In God's eyes you are exactly that.  God's desire is that we walk in the light as He is the light.  We can't do that if we don't see the sin and think that we are righteous even though we choose to sin.

There is also sin that we don't see because we have not yet matured enough to deal with it.  God works with each individual believer and their sin issues.  That is why I say yes we are righteous in the moment, when we are submissive to God's lead, and walk in that righteousness.  It is still faith.  It is impossible to please God without faith.

I understand what you are saying Ed. The interesting part is that after Abraham was declared righteous by God just because he believed God is that God told him to walk before him flawlessly. Of course that is the ideal. We should try to never do anything to displease our Lord or cause sorrow to the holy spirit. Yet, just in case we fail and we often will, we should remember that even though we regret our mistakes, God sees us as He sees Christ . . . perfectly righteous.

[Tony N]

Not quite there yet Seth.
Paul said Abraham was considered righteous by God more than 400 years before the law was given.
James was dealing with justification and how Abraham was justified by his acts. James is works based belief and Paul is faith based belief.

Right, that means James is not dealing with works of the Law in his statement, but works that proceed by faith. That is why he begins James 1 by talking about how we are born again by the will of God, not by our own works, then proceeds, like Paul, to say that if we have received the Spirit, let us also walk according to the Spirit.

Also in Romans 11 the NATIONS are grafted into the olive tree and it is due to God's kindness. This is not talking about individual people getting lopped out of the tree but nations. If God withdraw His kindness from the nations then the nations will no longer be His light bearers which is what the olive tree represents and the duties of the light bearer will go back to Israel who will be grafted back in.
Nothing can separate the individual believer from the love of God.

In Romans 11, Paul is contrasting BELIEVERS vs UNBELIEVERS not nation vs nation. The natural branches were cut off because of UNBELIEF. The wild branches were grafted in because of belief. Nobody can be grafted onto the tree except that he first believes. Nobody can haplessly be part of the olive tree just because he is a citizen of a particular nation, but only because he beliefs.

So, Paul's message is that BELIEVERS can be grafted in by belief and BELIEVERS can be cut off due to arrogance.

Seth, that was written to those believers under law. It is not written to believers of the nations. In fact it was written to Hebrew believers because the book is titles "Hebrews."

The book of Hebrews does not name itself "The book of Hebrews" so that title is irrelevant as proof of anything. Again, Hebrews is talking about believers having returned to sin after having received full knowledge of the truth.

Again, the branches of the olive tree are not individual believers but rather the nations.

That is impossible because it says that a person can be grafted to the tree WITHOUT BELIEF. ONLY BELIEVERS are grafted to the tree, not whole nations regardless of faith. Just because someone is a member of a worldly nation does not automatically make one grafted to the tree.

Again, we are grafted to the tree by BELIEF. We can be cut off for arrogance.

If you say so.

[sheila]

like everything else...the devil's apparently in the details of this free gift of righteousness. :sigh:

    I get tired of joy being raised in the hearts of His people..like the op Tony wrote.  Everyone praising God etc

  for what He does..then someone comes along and throws a wet blanket on it....and OH NO! it isn't a free gift... :eeew:

  it depnds on you after all!!!!!!! :eek:


   Goes to show..what's impossible with men..is possible with God!

  what,pray tell..is arrogant about believing  Jesus was/is the son of God,was crucified and died and resurrected?

  how is it arrogant to have God reckkon you as righteous for believing it? It is God who reckkons it.

             are we arrogant for believing Him?  seems to me that putting faith in

this leaves off any boasting in the flesh[arrogance]  Your'e righteousness MUST exceed the Pharisees.........

   they didn't believe He was the son of God...Lord..what works must we do...'you must believe him who was sent to you"

   This is My son..LISTEN TO HIM..  He told the Pharisee's and Sadducee's...the HARLOTS ARE ENTERING THE KINGDOM

  BEFORE YOU!!!!!  How is a harlot more righteous in God's sight then the religious leaders who had no sin[cough! cough!]


     Be CAREFUL NOT TO DO YOUR ACTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS BEFORE MEN


   The gifts and calling is without repentance on God's part[just as all Israel will be saved/though severely chastised]


   Now,I ask you....Because some become arrogant and are corrected..does that make the righteousness reckoned to us

  by God for believing  Jesus Christ is the son of God,was crucified,died and resurrected as no account?


Jesus Christ is the light..so how can a plague of darkness[Egypt] befall those who believe in Him?


   do we not all see through a glass darkly while in this shroud of flesh? Sometimes all people see is a light at the

end of the tunnel.

  BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU SEE.....YOUR SINS REMAIN

   the Saints were overcome..the dragon trampled them under his feet..

   WHEN I RETURN WILL I FIND FAITH ON THE EARTH? 


   Read Matthew ch 6 and see what He says are acts of righteousness. secret giving and mercy and compassion

  prayer and fasting in secret...forgiveness. don't worry..don't judge other's.

   If God says He reckon's you righteous for it..who is any man to disagree...or cause other's to shrink back through fear

   those example's are for reminders/signpost's of what pleases Him and what does not. and when we Love Him we

  want to please Him the best we can. and calling Him a liar is not the way


   It's all about the love in the heart..both for God and your fellow man

     

[jabcat]

I agree with your original premise Tony.  There is a large group of Christians (as you ran into on the other board) that believe Jesus only gives the opportunity for them to perform good enough to please Him, and then they MIGHT make it.  I grew up in that doctrine.  Performance, works, being good enough to qualify to keep salvation.  I don't believe it.  I do believe in obedience, but that neither takes the place of or supplements the work of the cross.

I believe the olive tree analogy is primarily about nations and administrations, rather than specifically individuals.  Jesus and His work on the cross.  Not works or performance.  Belief on His name through being drawn by the Spirit, then after that is growing, obedience, maturity.  Too many scriptures say things like children of God are sealed by Spirit unto that day, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

I believe a person may be in immense bondage, but be considered righteous, if they believe and agree that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He was raised after being crucified for us.

:thumbsup:

What Jesus did and does, not what we did or do..other than believe/trust Him.

Jn. 1:12  but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name,

[lastpost]

"And the other answering, rebuked him, saying, 'Dost thou not even fear God, that thou art in the same judgment?
And we indeed righteously, for things worthy of what we did we receive back, but this one did nothing out of place;'
And he said to Jesus, 'Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy kingdom;'
And Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise" [Luke 23:40-43]

In the records above, according to Jesus Christ Himself, acknowledging ones guilt, recognising His Lordship in the flesh and pleading His blessing, knowing that the Innocent One would die a painful and humiliating death out of His Love, was enough for salvation - even before Jesus' reappearance three days later.

Personally, I place the recorded words of Jesus Christ, the expressed Image of God, first and foremost, before assessing the inspired teachings and spiritual messages of men.

Sitting at the feet of the Master Christ in awe and reverence and knowing full well that I am a sinner who is lost without Him, I find that listening to others from that position only, helps me to hear the Spirit message underneath before it is clothed in human language, inspired opinion, allegory, simile, hyperbole or poetry. When I do this, I find that the scriptures in the Sacred Record take on another, to me, truer dimension - personally.

[Seth]

I get tired of joy being raised in the hearts of His people..like the op Tony wrote.  Everyone praising God etc

  for what He does..then someone comes along and throws a wet blanket on it....and OH NO! it isn't a free gift... 

  it depnds on you after all!!!!!!! 

If you look at what I said, I never said it depends on us. I said that righteousness is a result of the Spirit within. Sorry that speaking about works of love is considered a wet blanket.

what,pray tell..is arrogant about believing  Jesus was/is the son of God,was crucified and died and resurrected?

Nothing.

how is it arrogant to have God reckkon you as righteous for believing it?

It's not. In Paul's example, it's arrogant to boast over the natural branches. His example was arrogance following belief and what happens when that occurs.

Now,I ask you....Because some become arrogant and are corrected..does that make the righteousness reckoned to us by God for believing  Jesus Christ is the son of God,was crucified,died and resurrected as no account?

No, not of no account. But if one, as in Romans 2, continues to pursue evil, his belief in Christ and assumed imputed righteousness won't be much good because God will repay each according to their works.

Sorry, I know that sounds like a wet blanket, but it's in the Bible.

Jesus Christ is the light..so how can a plague of darkness[Egypt] befall those who believe in Him?

It can befall them if they grumble and return to Egypt...

Performance, works, being good enough to qualify to keep salvation.

The idea of "keeping salvation" has to do with the doctrine of hell. In other words, they believe that "performance" keeps one out of hell. You know I don't believe in hell. However, I do believe in salvation from SIN, and I do believe that a man is a slave to whatever he submits himself to, and if his "performance" is to believe in Jesus but return to slavery to that which he desires to serve, he has indeed lost that salvation. That is why Peter (2 Peter 2) says that it would have been better that they had not believed because when a dog returns to the vomit, it comes out worst than when it started.

Paul is pretty clear that unbelievers cannot be cut off the tree, because it takes belief to be grafted on in the first place. So whether someone says it is individual or national, what's clear is that it's believers that can be cut off for arrogance.

[ed]

I understand what you are saying Ed. The interesting part is that after Abraham was declared righteous by God just because he believed God is that God told him to walk before him flawlessly. Of course that is the ideal. We should try to never do anything to displease our Lord or cause sorrow to the holy spirit. Yet, just in case we fail and we often will, we should remember that even though we regret our mistakes, God sees us as He sees Christ . . . perfectly righteous.

After reading your post more closely I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.

When I look at you and others I see Christ...................Christ working, and his work.

When I listen to you....(or read you).....I hear doctrine.

I do enjoy throwing it around at times......all in good fun.

Have a good weekend!

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Lastpost. 

[Tom]

"He chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world, we to be holy and flawless in His sight." (Ephesians 1:4)

"In Whom you also--on hearing the word of truth, the evangel of your salvation--in Whom on believing also, you are sealed with the holy spirit of promise (which is an earnest of the enjoyment of our allotment, to the deliverance of that which has been procured) for the laud of His glory!" (Ephesians 1:13,14)

"And do not be causing sorrow to the holy spirit of God by which you are sealed for the day of deliverance." (Ephesians 4:30)

[Seth]

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 7
15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

[jabcat]

Hi Seth.  I think a good case could be made that neither of those scriptures are talking about believers, truly having been drawn by the Spirit and given faith to believe, thereby making them a new creation.  Similar to the "depart from Me I NEVER knew you".   :2c:

On the other hand, although I don't believe a child of God flips back and forth from being a son to being a bastard based on whatever happens in their works each day, still I'd personally rather see people take following the Lord seriously, than to have an "I don't care, God's got it" attitude.  I've seen both sides of the extreme.  :)

[jabcat]

I don't believe most folks who strongly believe one way or another are likely to suddenly change to a different perspective during such discussions.  Maybe there's subtle growth that takes place though, and maybe some who are truly struggling can benefit from seeing the various points of view.   :dsunny:

[Seth]

Well, I agree with you because I believe in the persistence of the saints, but it's worth pointing out that Jesus doesn't say "depart from me you who aren't believers." He says "depart from me you who work iniquity"

If the point is that those who work iniquity aren't real believers, that pretty much validates what James says "faith without works is dead."

[jabcat]

Ha, we've chased that one before.  lol     

I don't believe that means someone can have the faith of Jesus imparted into them through the Holy Spirit, then sealed by the same Spirit unto that Day, and that that faith is dead or of absolutely no effect to the renewing of that person's spirit (as I believe when the above truly happens, the renewing of the spirit is accomplished, done deal). I believe it has other implications, as was hammered out a few months ago in another thread ( things like "dead" to others, no effect as to spreading the gospel, to growing, maturing, being obedient, attaining rewards and position of service based on faithfullness, etc.).   

But that's old hat for us old-timers.   :gimmefive:  Again, I'd rather folks take following the Lord seriously anyway.  Maybe a little hell has been good for some of us along the way.  :)  God knows.

[jabcat]

I re-read your last line about James/faith/works/dead.  I see what you're saying, but I'm afraid it must be a big context, too much for my tired (lazy) brain right now.    :mblush: