Judging

[rosered]

Exactly Seth     !!    every word spoken ,JESUS CHRIST    was   by His Father      the HOLY SPIRIT      gives you[teaches ]  the Word to speak   in the hour   the TRUTH        as it binds    those guilty and has set you free



Luke 12 Confessing Christ
...11"When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world as a witness    against them   


Rev 3   ...9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.


10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

  whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

[CHB]

Hmmm...do you think, if that person is working for the government and doing it for his country, he is still a murderer? Do you think there is a difference between killing and murdering? Do you think killing is ever justified? I agree that TV and the media in general desensitize people to killing and all kinds of things. I'm wondering how you would "know someone who is a murderer" unless you actually witnessed the crime in which case you would have a legal responsibility to report the crime and not just "look the other way" or you may end up getting charged with obstructing justice or even being an accessory after the fact, but I'd say you better be prepared to deal with the consequences either way because, if that person is a gangbanger, you may have the whole gang coming after you in which case you better be armed and very alert. You may even want to relocate for the safety of your family. But it could just be a case of a crime of passion in which that person killed a spouse or significant other in a fit of rage in which case that person may easily accept that what he did was wrong and be genuinely sorry for what he did or not. Or it could even be a case of somebody that was out of his mind due to mental illness or intoxication and doesn't even remember what he did. It might even have been a case of self-defense that was misinterpreted as murder because you didn't witness what happened right before the killing. If it was a case of a government agent performing his job, you may be in jeopardy of being killed yourself by the same government for being a witness even if you don't say anything. I think there's some confusion about the two words "kill" and "murder," and I think it's got a lot to do with mistranslation of scripture. I remember hearing "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments when I was a Catholic kid, and then I wondered why every country has a military that does exactly that. I think there is a difference between "kill" and "murder," and those words need to be understood correctly. I think we can even personally witness something and perceive something that is completely different from what actually happened. I think you could witness a killing and think it's a murder, but it's not. You may not know that because you don't know all the facts about the circumstances. Assuming you do actually know it's a murder, I think you're legally responsible to report it, and then you could, out of compassion, minister to that person in jail or prison if you're led to do so either in person or by some sort of communication sharing scripture with that person about how Paul called himself the worst of sinners because he used to kill believers but had his life radically changed when he saw the light to the point that he became the apostle to the nations. Who knows? You might be the channel through which God causes that person to become a minister to his fellow prisoners. I think we're supposed to abide by the laws of society out of conscience and to provide a good example to the world and fellow believers, but we're also supposed to consider those who may be criminals to simply be lost souls who need compassion and a knowledge of the grace of God. God uses those who are considered by society to be not so great to be his most effective means through which to propagate the evangel because it is by doing so that it is obvious that it is not the power of the flesh or the wisdom of the world that convinces those lost souls to find their way to God but the power of God, the love of God, that draws them. The legal system of mankind is corrupt. Some people who have ruined the lives of many people never receive any retribution, and others who are completely innocent spend a lot of time locked up. It's called the justice system, but that's a misnomer. Only God is just, but even God has told certain people to kill some other people. God himself has killed many people. I think we have to try to see everything in context. For one thing only God has the power to bring any of those dead people back to life, and I think God will eventually bring all dead people back to life to never die again but at two different times. So I guess, because God has the power to give life and even restore life to those who have died, God is just choosing to put certain people in the game and take them out of the game only to put them back in the game at will whenever he wants to for his own reasons, and therefore it doesn't seem like it's such a bad thing even though there will be grieving families involved because death always brings sorrow. But, just like with us not being qualified to judge/condemn because we're all guilty, we don't have the power to create life or restore life to those we might kill. So I guess that's why we shouldn't kill anybody unless we're compelled to do so for various reasons such as being in the military or to defend our family or ourselves, but murder is a different story because it is unlawful killing. So I think we have a legal responsibility, but we're also compelled spiritually to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet. I can even see how we're not supposed to hate Satan because he's just doing his job, but we shouldn't let him deceive us either because we're supposed to know what's up if we're familiar with the word of God. All of us everyday probably witness other people sinning just as we may be aware of our sin and struggle with it. I don't think it's practical to think that we can call everybody out every time we see somebody missing the mark just as it isn't possible to catch ourselves every time before we sin so we don't do it because Satan's deception is very effective. So what are we supposed to do? I think God gave us all a conscience to know what is right and wrong even though some people have had theirs cauterized by their life experiences. Do you think the Boston bomber should have been sentenced to death? Some people think he should have, and some think he should get locked up for the rest of his life. Back in the day, I don't think there would have been any doubt about it. Does he deserve to live on the taxpayer dime for the rest of his life simply out of compassion for him even though he showed no compassion for the children and adults he murdered and maimed? If he should die, where should society draw the line at executing people taking into consideration that many innocent people have been and are convicted, and some have been even been executed unjustly. It seems the Boston bomber case has sufficient evidence to rationalize such a decision, but much of the time the so called justice system actually operates on insufficient evidence of dubious quality. I've read some information in the news lately about how the FBI has admitted that much of its evidence was based on false conclusions of people that were supposed to be qualified scientists. I have seen the corrupt side of the so called justice system up close and personal myself. I think people, in the USA at least, get only as much justice as they can afford. I understand what you're saying in your post, and I'm sorry to have gotten carried away with my response. Sometimes I get on a roll and get to ramblin, but I guess the bottom line is no, I don't think we're just supposed to "look the other way" if we witness what we think is a murder. And no, you're not "judging him," in the sense that you're self-righteously condemning him, just by "stating the facts" when compelled to do so by the authorities. I think, by doing so, you actually did "get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities" and help society by doing so. The accused murderer will have a lot of time to think about what he did if he's locked up, and he won't be able to murder anybody else on the street while he's locked  up even though he may do so inside or even be a victim of murder himself. I think either way you should have compassion for the person who got murdered when you witnessed it but the murderer too, which may seem strange, but he needs to be saved from his sin just like we all do. I hope I haven't made your dilemma more confusing. Scripture says we're supposed to be subject to the authorities, but we're also supposed to have compassion on all sinners just like Jesus did. So I think that means that we should simply do what is required by the laws of the society in which we live, but also realize we are called to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet even though some of them might make it kind of hard to do so.

Wow Tom!!! Just look at all of the different scenarios you came up with!

By the way I don't personally know any murderers. Was just thinking about judging and how it would apply if I knew of someone like that. I guess you could apply this answer of yours to any thing that is a sin. What I was trying to get accross was, if you knew someone who you know is wrong in what they are doing then by saying who, or what they are is judging them by some peoples point of view. If I said so and so was a murderer, thief, or whatever and that it was wrong, it doesn't mean I am judging them as to what their punishment should be or not be, just stating a fact. We all need correction in some points I am sure. Is it our job to correct them, sometimes I think it is and should be. Reason I say this is, if you see a brother or sister sinning and something you say might help them see that whatever they are doing can cause them harm, I say to try to help them is showing them love.

CHB   

[Tom]

I agree that it applies to all sin. I also agree that it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them overcome their sin, and it's not in the same context that I think Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge because we have to remember that judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.

[jabcat]

Seems there's been good progress in this thread and insights.   :thumbsup:  Situation, meaning, context, intent...even word meanings, their application.  That's what I was looking for and suspecting, because otherwise various scriptures that seem at odds "don't judge"/"judge rightly" wouldn't reconcile - and they must.  Not one blanket meaning that covers each situation.

Keep it up.  Once it's fleshed out, maybe we can come up with that little "go-to" pamphlet.   :Peace2:

[jabcat]

Keep it up.  Once it's fleshed out, maybe we can come up with that little "go-to" pamphlet.   :Peace2:

Seriously, I personally want to get out of this a succinct, few-sentence statement that addresses the various aspects if possible.  This is getting pretty close, I tell 'ya;  :)

it applies to all sin...it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them [and ourselves] overcome sin, and it's not in the same context Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge..  judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.

[jabcat]

I think of Jesus saying;  1)neither do I condemn you    2) go and sin no more   

[Tom]

Even though that story wasn't in earlier manuscripts, it's a good one because it tells it like it is. Some people are always quick to condemn others but forget about their own sin. None of us is worthy, but those of us who believe are justified through Christ. We shouldn't let that cause us to be self-righteous though because we all sin. It's only by the grace of God that we aren't condemned.

[Tom]

I think we just have to be ever mindful that judging is not a negative thing because it's just the process of making a good decision about anything. I think all of God's judgments are righteous including segregating all evil in the lake of fire. I think the only problem is that most believers think that's the end of the story, but we who know better need to help them understand that it's not.

[Psalm91:4]

I think we just have to be ever mindful that judging is not a negative thing because it's just the process of making a good decision about anything. I think all of God's judgments are righteous including segregating all evil in the lake of fire. I think the only problem is that most believers think that's the end of the story, but we who know better need to help them understand that it's not.

  :iagree:

I truly believe when each person who believes in and loves  Him honestly examines how graciously He has been to *them....and understands He is a good Father....who needs to correct at times, that the strongholds of a false representation preached about Him will be broken to smitherines.

His judgements teach men, heal men, restore people.  He is our Savior, not our condemner.

[CHB]

I agree that it applies to all sin. I also agree that it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them overcome their sin, and it's not in the same context that I think Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge because we have to remember that judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.

I agree Tom. Thanks.

CHB

[eaglesway]

Jesus didnt come to judge-condemn the world but that the world might be delivered-restored healrd by him. Those who have not received his word sre judged already. They are in Adam dying.
He is in us to judge-discern what is righteous and what is not. We discern all things. We condemn no one. In discernig and not condemning, but speaking the truth in love- we are able ministers of the word of reconciliation. We are alive in Christ. My words are spirit and life.

[rosered]

Jesus didnt come to judge-condemn the world but that the world might be delivered-restored healrd by him. Those who have not received his word sre judged already. They are in Adam dying.
He is in us to judge-discern what is righteous and what is not. We discern all things. We condemn no one. In discernig and not condemning, but speaking the truth in love- we are able ministers of the word of reconciliation. We are alive in Christ. My words are spirit and life.

Amen and this is the truth
 
  John, I feel many believe they are going to rule with Christ   to restore in the next age , and this may be so  in the sense they are  in Christ HIM being the first resurrection from among the dead  [THE HEAD as leader = authority] RULER   as a part of His Body [FIRST&LAST]   

  I believe it is more of this age of grace   we are to be busy about the Fathers business

  The Word tells us how to overcome the evil one   
and the young men and  fathers have    overcome  Him because greater is He that is in you than in the world

  So I need more proof to believe that than just Rev   20   at face value   or literal    [still sealed]

Maybe some could help me here understand  better their  reasoning

My own reasoning is  this, Jesus  Christ Himself   hold the keys to  the  hidden/ graves  and death
Satan does not  hold that power any  longer    since the Cross

I know many do not understand that part    at all  ,   that is,  still  in the world  , being mortal  and spiritually unborn  yet , and   many have died without ever knowing this much.

I do believe   with all my heart Jesus is reigning now   and the judgment seat of Christ  is in effect
   [Him being the LORD  Ruler  /Master of the dead and the Living ]

   What if the dead and living  do stand before HIM  in their last day  as  mortals   as they rise   to meet Him in the air ?

and the Living are reigning with Him [believers] , because we  are  ALL dead    to God     at the moment we are born  mortals , and alive in and to  the world and satan  is the  ruler of this world   of mortality    only ...

[ GOD is not the GOD of the dead but the Living and all live to Him ]

  It is Christ whom   all the fulness dwells    and He makes Alive   

  I  know we use human reasoning     all the time when we judge for ourselves   all the time .

  and the Scriptures    do not make sense  in human reasoning    sometimes  but try to make it  fit


  Some could say  this is  error  because its not by faith at all,    but human reasoning 

This is the  Babylon trap    and so many   daughters /doctrines  of men  come  out  from the Great Whore of the Earth  [Idolatress  woman ]

Not  come out  from Jesus Christ at all

One of the most  significant  clues is the patience of God and  keeping His promises ,     as for the DAY   being a 1000  years and   1000 years being a Day   to  GOD
But we literally take the 1000 years to be a  1000year reign  , when It is a Day   in the sight of God   and children of the Day    have been   since the time of Paul's writings

and the DAY  star rising in our hearts is  Jesus Christ being lifted up   to draw all men unto Him 
   
I believe   why so many   do not   understand is ,   just how personal and individual     our relationship     is in the Lord  God almighty is . and cannot apply to everyone     at that  SAME  time  appointed  , but   can and will or has already for some     , making the HOLY SPIRIT  WITNESS  OF TRUTH   your reality   and
many would believe  by your testimony,,,,   as we do these   called and chosen ones  in the WORD  by the Holy Spirit witness of truth  dwelling you  you , like a  quickening   , a moving and stirring and shaking  and Light  and knowing  by faith  in hope by the Love of God on all     

2 Peter 1
  We Saw Christ's Glory
16 [L For] When we ·told [made known to] you about the ·powerful coming [or power and coming] of our Lord Jesus Christ, we were not ·telling [following; repeating] ·just clever stories that someone invented [or cleverly-concocted myths].

But we ·saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes [L were eyewitness of his majesty].



17 [L For] ·Jesus heard the voice of God, the Greatest Glory [L When that voice came to him from the Majestic Glory], when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him [C a reference to the Transfiguration; Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35]."


18 We heard that voice from heaven while we were with Jesus on the ·holy [sacred] mountain.

19 ·This makes us more sure about the message the prophets gave [or And we also have a reliable message from the prophets; L And we have the prophetic word confirmed; C probably referring to the Old Testament].


·It is good for you [You do well] to follow closely what they said as you would follow a ·light [L lamp] shining in a dark place, until the day ·begins [L dawns] and the morning star rises in your hearts [Num. 24:17; Rev. 22:16; C the planet Venus as seen before sunrise, here symbolizing Christ].


20 ·Most [First] of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ·ever comes from the prophet's own interpretation [or is a matter of one's own interpretation].


21 No prophecy ever came from ·what a person wanted to say [L human will/intention], but people ·led [carried; moved] by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God. [C True prophecy originates with God, not with the prophet.]

When the Holy Spirit  teaches  us  and  bears witness to our heart ,  when'' the Word''  being  Jesus Christ is  seated there  ,  than  do we hear  in our ear   and learn of Him   and His  righteousness

   Many are  and  I believe IN JESUS CHRIST PRESENCE  , whom   the  crystal clear   waters  flow from His being present   within them .    John 7

Living Water
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive;

for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


May the Holy Spirit bear witness
we are nothing without Him    ,   The    TRUE Vine of Life  and  bearing   branches  living off of Him .

 

[ian]

Another perspective:
---
Rev 12: 10-11
...And I hear a loud voice in the heaven saying, "Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night."
---
That's a decent template of what not to do ;p
---
verse 12 "And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."
---
For me, giving in to this world births shame, knowing that Jesus endures my sin. Still, sometimes it needs to be said aloud, if focus is lost. A loving reminder.

[eaglesway]

I agree, giving in to this world births shame. Thats why as believers, we give in to Jesus :o)

[rosered]

Amen ,  well said Ian and John

As  Jesus  Christ  overcome the world   by His cross  and inherited all things     as the Son of God  being the excellent example and LIGHT /Love with  wisdom & knowledge  to show us the way


 

  We to also must overcome the world though Him , by taking up our  cross   and   follow His example  unto death of this world  ,    Greater is He who is in you than in the world

none will  overcome without Him , but remain     lifeless and dead  to God , in the world and bound   to it .[God is the God of the Living ]


Even  the saints are  overcome   rev 13 , none by their own power can be victorious , nor glory   in anything but  GODS   power   in HOLY SPIRIT    AND LIFE IN CHRIST

   His Love    for us and in us ,  conquers all things    and inherits all things    creating the   sons of  His glory    ,    Gods will and desire   to be made  known,

on earth as it is in heaven     .