"Judge not". Often heard, all over the place. I see it in comment sections of news articles, usually from seeming unbelievers "chastising" Christians for taking a stand on a moral and/or spiritual issue.
I have some ideas, but I don't fully understand all the issues involved with scriptural judging, and usually feel around trying to find the right balance. I'll mention a few various references, and then suggest that not just any one of these statements can be used on which to base a complete approach. I think there must be several different aspects to it, that fit several specific, distinct situations. Context, reconciling of the whole, and all that.
Judge not, in one place and situation. Judge rightly in others.
Don't judge the world. Judge inside the "church".
Jesus didn't come to judge. Jesus condemned the practices of the religious leaders and took a whip to the money changers.
Be kind and patient with each other. Put the unrepentant sinner out of your midst.
The same way you judge, you'll be judged. If someone has sinned, go to him and confront/correct him. Next time take someone with you. After that, "treat them as a pagan or tax collector".
So, do you think it's one size fits all, or do you see where certain references and approaches apply to varying situations and circumstances? Maybe also has to do with even the definition/meaning of 'judge'? Might it have different connotations in different situations? For instance, discernment and knowing right and wrong vs. condemning? Thoughts?
1 Cor 2;15..the spiritual man judges all things but is himself not judged.
this is the judgement of God...God bound up all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all.
Let God be true and every man a liar,as it is written; So that you may be proved right when you speak,and prevail when you judge.
But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?
Roman 3;9 what shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that jews and gentiles alike are
all under sin.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law;rather,through the law we become conscience of sin.
Good question James ,
All righteous judgement should be by the standard Jesus Christ set , by example . just my own observations .
I know that Jesus peace is a big part of that . in the world you will not have this same peace that Jesus gives , but the opposite being troubles .
He told them when entering a house ," say peace to your house" or if they do not receive you or your witness , let your Peace return to you .
Also have peace with all men as much as be in you ..
Blessed are the peacemakers they shall be called the children of God .
I believe this is an exercise in discerning spirits and allowing the Holy Spirit to bear witness in your own conscience that you are pleasing God
Not yourself nor others so much as pleasing God .
Its all about "keeping your conscience " clean .
I believe this is is the necessary part of the "waiting on the Lord " and patience of the saints , when its swept clean , we are not to go out looking for "rest" we will not find it , but only bring back 7 more spirits wicked/ unrest than the original spirit in you and the last state of the man will be worse off than the original condition
I remember the ones making the proselyte , new student a two fold child of Gehenna by their own spirits , I can see this as men with men in the spiritual sense ,
making them all barren of fruit , Holy Spirit fruits , the increase of God .
So we have the spirits of unrest and anti Christ spirits , called the children of disobedience who are drunk at night , receiving the wrath of God on them
Rest or wrath , it is leaning to discern the spirits
the Gathering in to Christ Spirit of ONENESS or the scattering abroad spirits of many .
Spirits of just men made perfect.. Here is a big clue for me that helped also , Gather in to Jesus Christ the ONE faith ,one hope ,one baptism , ONE SPIRIT , ONE GOD same unity of faith in Him Hebrews 12
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,
the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,
23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel....
I think "judge" from the Greek "krino," literally "judge," means "set right, come to a conclusion, decide," but the word is usually misinterpreted to mean "condemn." That is what I think Jesus was referring to when he told us not to "judge," and that's why he often exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders who tended to condemn others while they were also guilty.
Yep ! judge , right Tom we are ALL guilty before God.. It seems
he NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2919 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
krino perhaps a primitive word
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Krino 3:921,469
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kree'-no Verb
Definition
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law
NAS Word Usage - Total: 115
act as...judge 1, concluded 1, condemn 1, condemning 1, considered 1, decided 8, determine 1, determined 2, go to law 1, goes to law 1, judge 42, judged 25, judges 10, judging 5, judgment 1, pass judgment 1, passes judgment 1, passing judgment 1, pronounced 1, regards 2, stand trial 2, sue 1, trial 3, tried 1, try 1
Yeah, we're all guilty, sis. That's why we shouldn't judge/condemn others.
Quote from: Tom on May 15, 2015, 05:54:00 PM
Yeah, we're all guilty, sis. That's why we shouldn't judge/condemn others.
If this is how we are standing trial though the court system of the heavenly courts and messengers , as Jesus is in His seat now with the FATHER ,
judging in righteousness Daniel 7 this same vision of Daniel was seeing by the Spirit of prophecy what would come
and I do believe this is where Jesus Christ went to sit with His Father in the same Throne as He overcome the world and all that was in it
9"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. 1
0"A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. 11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire....
a horn is a power on the altar , I look at this as individually and our own beast nature is like our own bodies are given over to the flame of Gods righteous judgment
Just as Paul said If I have not love and give my Body to be burned it will be for nothing ...
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them:
"See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy onesRevelation 5:11
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.
Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth." I believe when Jesus said it was finnished , this work of the Cross of Christ meant that
greater works will you do because I go to the Father ,
sitting on the right hand of God
as overcame and sit Father Rev 3
...20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock;
if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,
I will come in to him and will dine with him,
and he with Me.
21
'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'" Be of good cheer little flock I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD
this is taking up your cross and following Christ , because greater is He who is in you than in the world
I do understand how you may have to die in the literal sense for the promises to be fulfilled
and having the deposit of the Spirit now as an
guarantee seal or insignia a distinguishing mark or sign of anything
NOUN
a formal promise or assurance (typically in writing) that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability:
synonyms: warranty
VERB
provide a formal assurance or promise, especially that certain conditions shall be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction
a covenant is an agreement of keeping on both parties
not just one sided in that sense and Thank God for Jesus , helping us and being mediator ,,, a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.
Thanks for the replies. Interesting issue, I believe, with different nuances depending on the sitatuation and attitude/motive, etc. Seems to me we make judgments all the time. It's a necessary part of living. :Chinscratch: So maybe the condemning aspect is key. We can make decisions, judgments, etc. and take appropriate actions in our lives - hopefully scripturally sound and as led by the Spirit. But only God can literally and finally condemn or justify. :2c: I'll think on it some more, thanks.
I think ya nailed it, bro.
Very true in the broad sense James we sure do
and I also agree with your words ,
as it is scripture one lawgiver and judge who is able to save and destroy
James 4 ...11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law;
but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.
12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?
Jesus said the word spoken judges us on the last day also John 12
Some Believe in Jesus
...47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him;
for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;
the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day
. 49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak....
hear My Son Hebrews 12
25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.
If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth,
how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe
, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."
So that's very interesting rosie. I see what James said. Yet I also see what Paul said; I Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked one from among yourselves."
What thoughts do you have on reconciling those 2 verses? What other contexts come into play do you think that makes it all fit together?
You are right James ,
How do we do ? I believe there is a discerning of the spirits for sure, but even more so discerning the BODY OF CHRIST ,It seem the stricter eye is on those within the assemblies , churches
but also found these very helpful and they are all in agreement ..
I do believe you dealt with them and prayed for them and asked them to act peaceably , now its on them to do their part , not you any longer
2 Thess 3 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Matthew 18:15
"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.
Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:13
And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.
I do believe we are never to compromise for sin to many warnings in the WORD of God
Children of Light
...10trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret....
Proverbs 1:10
My son, if sinful men entice you, do not give in to them.
Proverbs 28:4
Those who forsake instruction praise the wicked, but those who heed it resist them.
John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'
Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
1 Corinthians 5:9
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Ephesians 5:12
It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.
Colossians 1:12
and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.
1 Timothy 5:20
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.
1 Timothy 5:22
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
scary, when taken very seriously , is it not ?
Quote from: rosered on May 16, 2015, 01:11:44 AM
2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
scary, when taken very seriously , is it not ?
Yes! That's what I'm talking about. There's a LOT to it, not just a "well, we're told to not judge". IMO, it's not something to just passively say "God will take care of it". I believe He's let us know some pretty specific things, yet I'm afraid many of us (INCLUDING ME) don't really understand how to walk it out in every situation. What I don't believe is, "God doesn't care, just love everyone". No, He's made it clear He cares, and given us instructions on how to approach things and deal with them. As usual, I'd like a really neat package of "Do This and Don't Do That In These 3 Situations for a Christian" Handbook, and I'm afraid it's not published yet. Instead, we have to sort it out and find the truth. Maybe this discussion will help with that. Thanks! More to digest. :thumbsup:
I think we're supposed to speak up in the spirit of love to actually help our brothers and sisters, not condemn them, even though that's how it might be perceived by them if they're in denial, but I also think it's a good idea to humbly share our own struggles with sin to show we're not being hypocritical but going through the same type of spiritual warfare they are even though we may have different manifestations of sin. We're all dealing with sin everyday because it's in our flesh even though we're filled with the spirit of God. I agree that we're not just supposed to passively submit to it and say God loves me anyway because I think we're expected to exercise discernment and then change our ways believing God gives us the power to do so. I know from experience that the power of the spirit of God is real power that overcomes evil in your life if you just believe.
:iagree: I see it that way as well , Tom ,,, :thumbsup:
it is a true saying as an example Paul confesses His sins openly before all
We are to confess our sins to one another , all this is open and before God and man , nothing hidden . as the Light is shinning
1Timothy
God's Grace to Paul
...14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.
15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.
16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for anios life....
Quote from: jabcat on May 16, 2015, 01:20:26 AM
Quote from: rosered on May 16, 2015, 01:11:44 AM
2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
scary, when taken very seriously , is it not ?
Yes! That's what I'm talking about. There's a LOT to it, not just a "well, we're told to not judge". IMO, it's not something to just passively say "God will take care of it". I believe He's let us know some pretty specific things, yet I'm afraid many of us (INCLUDING ME) don't really understand how to walk it out in every situation. What I don't believe is, "God doesn't care, just love everyone". No, He's made it clear He cares, and given us instructions on how to approach things and deal with them. As usual, I'd like a really neat package of "Do This and Don't Do That In These 3 Situations for a Christian" Handbook, and I'm afraid it's not published yet. Instead, we have to sort it out and find the truth. Maybe this discussion will help with that. Thanks! More to digest. :thumbsup:
Thanks James , As being open for more judgments /opinions as well :winkgrin:
Thanks .................. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Tom on May 16, 2015, 01:33:55 AM
I think we're supposed to speak up in the spirit of love to actually help our brothers and sisters, not condemn them, even though that's how it might be perceived by them if they're in denial, but I also think it's a good idea to humbly share our own struggles with sin to show we're not being hypocritical but going through the same type of spiritual warfare they are even though we may have different manifestations of sin. We're all dealing with sin everyday because it's in our flesh even though we're filled with the spirit of God. I agree that we're not just supposed to passively submit to it and say God loves me anyway because I think we're expected to exercise discernment and then change our ways believing God gives us the power to do so. I know from experience that the power of the spirit of God is real power that overcomes evil in your life if you just believe.
Hi Tom,
I agree. I was thinking :Chinscratch: maybe I shouldn't? If I know someone who is a murderer, am I suppose to look the other way and suppose God will handle it, maybe kill another person, or do I get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities? If I announce he is a murderer am I judging him or just stating the facts? Seems we sometimes get our priorities confused. :doh: We as a society have gotten so passive on things, I guess because there is so much goings on in the world and it is seen so much on tv that we have become immune to it all.
CHB
Quote from: jabcat on May 15, 2015, 09:38:44 AM
"Judge not". Often heard, all over the place. I see it in comment sections of news articles, usually from seeming unbelievers "chastising" Christians for taking a stand on a moral and/or spiritual issue.
I have some ideas, but I don't fully understand all the issues involved with scriptural judging, and usually feel around trying to find the right balance. I'll mention a few various references, and then suggest that not just any one of these statements can be used on which to base a complete approach. I think there must be several different aspects to it, that fit several specific, distinct situations. Context, reconciling of the whole, and all that.
Judge not, in one place and situation. Judge rightly in others.
Don't judge the world. Judge inside the "church".
Jesus didn't come to judge. Jesus condemned the practices of the religious leaders and took a whip to the money changers.
Be kind and patient with each other. Put the unrepentant sinner out of your midst.
The same way you judge, you'll be judged. If someone has sinned, go to him and confront/correct him. Next time take someone with you. After that, "treat them as a pagan or tax collector".
So, do you think it's one size fits all, or do you see where certain references and approaches apply to varying situations and circumstances? Maybe also has to do with even the definition/meaning of 'judge'? Might it have different connotations in different situations? For instance, discernment and knowing right and wrong vs. condemning? Thoughts?
One reason I think for the confusion is how that the English language has so many more words and therefore more ability to use words that add connotation. the Hebrew and Greek have less words so it becomes more important to look at context surrounding "judge" to determine what KIND of judging he is talking about. In some places he says he does not judge, and in other places he judges. It's the KIND of judging that makes the difference.
BTW, there is a fuller reasoning to consider in the judge not scripture:
Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
See, Jesus is not saying we shouldn't remove motes from our brother's eyes (we do that with UR teaching alone, dispelling the false doctrines of hell). We just shouldn't do it if we have a bigger problem than our brother.
Hmmm...do you think, if that person is working for the government and doing it for his country, he is still a murderer? Do you think there is a difference between killing and murdering? Do you think killing is ever justified? I agree that TV and the media in general desensitize people to killing and all kinds of things. I'm wondering how you would "know someone who is a murderer" unless you actually witnessed the crime in which case you would have a legal responsibility to report the crime and not just "look the other way" or you may end up getting charged with obstructing justice or even being an accessory after the fact, but I'd say you better be prepared to deal with the consequences either way because, if that person is a gangbanger, you may have the whole gang coming after you in which case you better be armed and very alert. You may even want to relocate for the safety of your family. But it could just be a case of a crime of passion in which that person killed a spouse or significant other in a fit of rage in which case that person may easily accept that what he did was wrong and be genuinely sorry for what he did or not. Or it could even be a case of somebody that was out of his mind due to mental illness or intoxication and doesn't even remember what he did. It might even have been a case of self-defense that was misinterpreted as murder because you didn't witness what happened right before the killing. If it was a case of a government agent performing his job, you may be in jeopardy of being killed yourself by the same government for being a witness even if you don't say anything. I think there's some confusion about the two words "kill" and "murder," and I think it's got a lot to do with mistranslation of scripture. I remember hearing "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments when I was a Catholic kid, and then I wondered why every country has a military that does exactly that. I think there is a difference between "kill" and "murder," and those words need to be understood correctly. I think we can even personally witness something and perceive something that is completely different from what actually happened. I think you could witness a killing and think it's a murder, but it's not. You may not know that because you don't know all the facts about the circumstances. Assuming you do actually know it's a murder, I think you're legally responsible to report it, and then you could, out of compassion, minister to that person in jail or prison if you're led to do so either in person or by some sort of communication sharing scripture with that person about how Paul called himself the worst of sinners because he used to kill believers but had his life radically changed when he saw the light to the point that he became the apostle to the nations. Who knows? You might be the channel through which God causes that person to become a minister to his fellow prisoners. I think we're supposed to abide by the laws of society out of conscience and to provide a good example to the world and fellow believers, but we're also supposed to consider those who may be criminals to simply be lost souls who need compassion and a knowledge of the grace of God. God uses those who are considered by society to be not so great to be his most effective means through which to propagate the evangel because it is by doing so that it is obvious that it is not the power of the flesh or the wisdom of the world that convinces those lost souls to find their way to God but the power of God, the love of God, that draws them. The legal system of mankind is corrupt. Some people who have ruined the lives of many people never receive any retribution, and others who are completely innocent spend a lot of time locked up. It's called the justice system, but that's a misnomer. Only God is just, but even God has told certain people to kill some other people. God himself has killed many people. I think we have to try to see everything in context. For one thing only God has the power to bring any of those dead people back to life, and I think God will eventually bring all dead people back to life to never die again but at two different times. So I guess, because God has the power to give life and even restore life to those who have died, God is just choosing to put certain people in the game and take them out of the game only to put them back in the game at will whenever he wants to for his own reasons, and therefore it doesn't seem like it's such a bad thing even though there will be grieving families involved because death always brings sorrow. But, just like with us not being qualified to judge/condemn because we're all guilty, we don't have the power to create life or restore life to those we might kill. So I guess that's why we shouldn't kill anybody unless we're compelled to do so for various reasons such as being in the military or to defend our family or ourselves, but murder is a different story because it is unlawful killing. So I think we have a legal responsibility, but we're also compelled spiritually to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet. I can even see how we're not supposed to hate Satan because he's just doing his job, but we shouldn't let him deceive us either because we're supposed to know what's up if we're familiar with the word of God. All of us everyday probably witness other people sinning just as we may be aware of our sin and struggle with it. I don't think it's practical to think that we can call everybody out every time we see somebody missing the mark just as it isn't possible to catch ourselves every time before we sin so we don't do it because Satan's deception is very effective. So what are we supposed to do? I think God gave us all a conscience to know what is right and wrong even though some people have had theirs cauterized by their life experiences. Do you think the Boston bomber should have been sentenced to death? Some people think he should have, and some think he should get locked up for the rest of his life. Back in the day, I don't think there would have been any doubt about it. Does he deserve to live on the taxpayer dime for the rest of his life simply out of compassion for him even though he showed no compassion for the children and adults he murdered and maimed? If he should die, where should society draw the line at executing people taking into consideration that many innocent people have been and are convicted, and some have been even been executed unjustly. It seems the Boston bomber case has sufficient evidence to rationalize such a decision, but much of the time the so called justice system actually operates on insufficient evidence of dubious quality. I've read some information in the news lately about how the FBI has admitted that much of its evidence was based on false conclusions of people that were supposed to be qualified scientists. I have seen the corrupt side of the so called justice system up close and personal myself. I think people, in the USA at least, get only as much justice as they can afford. I understand what you're saying in your post, and I'm sorry to have gotten carried away with my response. Sometimes I get on a roll and get to ramblin, but I guess the bottom line is no, I don't think we're just supposed to "look the other way" if we witness what we think is a murder. And no, you're not "judging him," in the sense that you're self-righteously condemning him, just by "stating the facts" when compelled to do so by the authorities. I think, by doing so, you actually did "get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities" and help society by doing so. The accused murderer will have a lot of time to think about what he did if he's locked up, and he won't be able to murder anybody else on the street while he's locked up even though he may do so inside or even be a victim of murder himself. I think either way you should have compassion for the person who got murdered when you witnessed it but the murderer too, which may seem strange, but he needs to be saved from his sin just like we all do. I hope I haven't made your dilemma more confusing. Scripture says we're supposed to be subject to the authorities, but we're also supposed to have compassion on all sinners just like Jesus did. So I think that means that we should simply do what is required by the laws of the society in which we live, but also realize we are called to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet even though some of them might make it kind of hard to do so.
This become to long ... :sigh:
Paul confessed his murderous ways That was kind of my point .
I do not think that we will come to the LIGHT and expose our nakedness , until we do
Under the old law it does expose sin and shame and nakedness , putting those things to death in us , so we can be set free from guilt and a past .
If one does not repent , change the ways of thinking , they are still held under the bondage of sin and death
What good is it to say , I was like that too and say its ok , it is not ok ,,,,
Dont you even realize you we dead to God as long as you lived that way ?
The irony of Pauls confession was he really believed in his heart he was doing Gods service ..
In a strange way , he was a messenger of wrath and angel of death ...
But when Jesus got a hold of Him and I do believe it was a spiritual experience he encountered not a physical one , because no man saw it
And always will wonder if this was Paul's explaining this in the third person , as seeing the third heaven where Christ was and the thief on the cross was going after death ''example '' , as the old one become silent and mouth stopped and become guilty before God and was the man of sin who Paul would have to silence within himself when it would rise up ,,,
the new man in Christ spoke , when he said it was unlawful things spoken , those things according to the LAW , were done away with in Christ
Because he was not following according to the written on stone hearts any longer , but hearing what the Spirit was saying for the first time
Making the old prophecy in ISAIAH true , I will cause those whom say they see,,, be made blind and cause the blind to see ,,, Paul had come into the LIGHT OF CHRIST exposing his shame and nakedness .. error He was blinded for a time and needed help and God sent a man to lead him for a time
who at first feared Paul /Saul , but feared GOD more , the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom , Saul / Paul was bearing his cross from that point on
I believe everything Jesus ever SPOKE has major meaning when He says you fill up the measure of your fathers guilt Matt 23 ...31"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of Gehenna ?
we are all measured !! as you judge so shall you be judged , by this same measure , of who we are what is still in operation , the old man of sin or the new man in Christ ? who has been set free from that wicked one
If was were all that honest and could confess , we are guilty of all , Just as Jesus said , if you break one at any point your guilty of all , because this is the division and dividing point in every last one of us ...
When Paul said he was alive once without the law , he was alive to the world and in the world and of the world
What is the main and key proof though out the new testament , it is overcoming the world though faith in Jesus Christ
none overcome the world in the times past , except the faithful few spoken of in Hebrews 11 and knew this world was not their home
They knew HEAVEN WAS , NO body has ever ascended into heaven , but the ONE who come down from Heaven , and Who was hid in Jesus christ from the beginning and the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ? THOSE THAT ARE HIS and always was of HIM and those whom would spring forth new life out of those sent into all the ends of the earth
And this gives us the true meaning of gathering into Christ Paul really expounds on what was scattered in the world is being gathered up and going back Home and the tares have been measured and judged are being gathered and burned by angels and men according to the age / season , generation /harvest in the here and now as little lakes of fire , not an ocean of fire , but lakes being the small bundles
Paul even mentions if I give my body to be burned and have not love it is for nothing ... He was speaking of Jesus words here I do believe
John 15 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you
Can you see How the Word abides in us and we are Judged by the Word abiding in us ?
this is is how we crucify Jesus Christ afresh and put Him to an open shame the WORD OF GOD in you judges you all the time
worthy or unworthy , you will be spewed out of His mouth a rejected branch withering and dying without the water of Life abiding in you
nothing living can live without water here on earth , every animal every creeping thing , every tree every herb , everything living and has life is because of the Water of the WORD Jesus speaks of being born again of water and spirit those in John 3 are how we LIVE , the wind blows on who ever and rests on him and the water of the WORD and the Spirit of truth are How we LIVE TO GOD and worship Him , IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH
I will continue to believe the two witnesses are the two olive trees and 2 lampstands[bodies as assemblies ] the SPIRIT OF TRUTH and the WORD OF GOD given to every man born again under heaven planted by God Himself as Having the Spirit of prophecy and testimony of Jesus Christ in them ,
the old and the new covenants and Jesus Christ was in the midst of them always
Psalms
any tree by Father has not planted ,
...12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" 13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
I am a young olive tree planted by the water But as for me, I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.2But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. 3He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers. 4The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
Rev 11 this measuring rod is what is on the inside HIS TEMPLE AND ALTAR and what is left on the outside to be tramples underfoot the 2nd woe to those who dwell in the earth ..
Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.
Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.
We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.
Without the Holy spirit revealing to us that Ananias and Sapphira were lying.
We would of thought they were pillars of the church giving away their property to the Lord .
We probably would notice those you gave nothing and judge accordingly.
Quote from: dajomaco on May 16, 2015, 09:52:20 PM
Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.
Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.
We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.
:icon_flower: Yes it is the Word of God abiding in you and the Holy Spirit is also bearing witness the TRUTH Daj ! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: dajomaco on May 16, 2015, 09:52:20 PM
Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.
Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.
We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.
I would consider what Peter said to them a judgment. It was obviously given by the Holy Spirit for him to say, but it did come out of his mouth.
Exactly Seth !! every word spoken ,JESUS CHRIST was by His Father the HOLY SPIRIT gives you[teaches ] the Word to speak in the hour the TRUTH as it binds those guilty and has set you free
Luke 12 Confessing Christ
...11"When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say; 12for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
the hour of trial that comes upon the whole world as a witness against them
Rev 3 ...9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.
10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Quote from: Tom on May 16, 2015, 09:48:42 PM
Hmmm...do you think, if that person is working for the government and doing it for his country, he is still a murderer? Do you think there is a difference between killing and murdering? Do you think killing is ever justified? I agree that TV and the media in general desensitize people to killing and all kinds of things. I'm wondering how you would "know someone who is a murderer" unless you actually witnessed the crime in which case you would have a legal responsibility to report the crime and not just "look the other way" or you may end up getting charged with obstructing justice or even being an accessory after the fact, but I'd say you better be prepared to deal with the consequences either way because, if that person is a gangbanger, you may have the whole gang coming after you in which case you better be armed and very alert. You may even want to relocate for the safety of your family. But it could just be a case of a crime of passion in which that person killed a spouse or significant other in a fit of rage in which case that person may easily accept that what he did was wrong and be genuinely sorry for what he did or not. Or it could even be a case of somebody that was out of his mind due to mental illness or intoxication and doesn't even remember what he did. It might even have been a case of self-defense that was misinterpreted as murder because you didn't witness what happened right before the killing. If it was a case of a government agent performing his job, you may be in jeopardy of being killed yourself by the same government for being a witness even if you don't say anything. I think there's some confusion about the two words "kill" and "murder," and I think it's got a lot to do with mistranslation of scripture. I remember hearing "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments when I was a Catholic kid, and then I wondered why every country has a military that does exactly that. I think there is a difference between "kill" and "murder," and those words need to be understood correctly. I think we can even personally witness something and perceive something that is completely different from what actually happened. I think you could witness a killing and think it's a murder, but it's not. You may not know that because you don't know all the facts about the circumstances. Assuming you do actually know it's a murder, I think you're legally responsible to report it, and then you could, out of compassion, minister to that person in jail or prison if you're led to do so either in person or by some sort of communication sharing scripture with that person about how Paul called himself the worst of sinners because he used to kill believers but had his life radically changed when he saw the light to the point that he became the apostle to the nations. Who knows? You might be the channel through which God causes that person to become a minister to his fellow prisoners. I think we're supposed to abide by the laws of society out of conscience and to provide a good example to the world and fellow believers, but we're also supposed to consider those who may be criminals to simply be lost souls who need compassion and a knowledge of the grace of God. God uses those who are considered by society to be not so great to be his most effective means through which to propagate the evangel because it is by doing so that it is obvious that it is not the power of the flesh or the wisdom of the world that convinces those lost souls to find their way to God but the power of God, the love of God, that draws them. The legal system of mankind is corrupt. Some people who have ruined the lives of many people never receive any retribution, and others who are completely innocent spend a lot of time locked up. It's called the justice system, but that's a misnomer. Only God is just, but even God has told certain people to kill some other people. God himself has killed many people. I think we have to try to see everything in context. For one thing only God has the power to bring any of those dead people back to life, and I think God will eventually bring all dead people back to life to never die again but at two different times. So I guess, because God has the power to give life and even restore life to those who have died, God is just choosing to put certain people in the game and take them out of the game only to put them back in the game at will whenever he wants to for his own reasons, and therefore it doesn't seem like it's such a bad thing even though there will be grieving families involved because death always brings sorrow. But, just like with us not being qualified to judge/condemn because we're all guilty, we don't have the power to create life or restore life to those we might kill. So I guess that's why we shouldn't kill anybody unless we're compelled to do so for various reasons such as being in the military or to defend our family or ourselves, but murder is a different story because it is unlawful killing. So I think we have a legal responsibility, but we're also compelled spiritually to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet. I can even see how we're not supposed to hate Satan because he's just doing his job, but we shouldn't let him deceive us either because we're supposed to know what's up if we're familiar with the word of God. All of us everyday probably witness other people sinning just as we may be aware of our sin and struggle with it. I don't think it's practical to think that we can call everybody out every time we see somebody missing the mark just as it isn't possible to catch ourselves every time before we sin so we don't do it because Satan's deception is very effective. So what are we supposed to do? I think God gave us all a conscience to know what is right and wrong even though some people have had theirs cauterized by their life experiences. Do you think the Boston bomber should have been sentenced to death? Some people think he should have, and some think he should get locked up for the rest of his life. Back in the day, I don't think there would have been any doubt about it. Does he deserve to live on the taxpayer dime for the rest of his life simply out of compassion for him even though he showed no compassion for the children and adults he murdered and maimed? If he should die, where should society draw the line at executing people taking into consideration that many innocent people have been and are convicted, and some have been even been executed unjustly. It seems the Boston bomber case has sufficient evidence to rationalize such a decision, but much of the time the so called justice system actually operates on insufficient evidence of dubious quality. I've read some information in the news lately about how the FBI has admitted that much of its evidence was based on false conclusions of people that were supposed to be qualified scientists. I have seen the corrupt side of the so called justice system up close and personal myself. I think people, in the USA at least, get only as much justice as they can afford. I understand what you're saying in your post, and I'm sorry to have gotten carried away with my response. Sometimes I get on a roll and get to ramblin, but I guess the bottom line is no, I don't think we're just supposed to "look the other way" if we witness what we think is a murder. And no, you're not "judging him," in the sense that you're self-righteously condemning him, just by "stating the facts" when compelled to do so by the authorities. I think, by doing so, you actually did "get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities" and help society by doing so. The accused murderer will have a lot of time to think about what he did if he's locked up, and he won't be able to murder anybody else on the street while he's locked up even though he may do so inside or even be a victim of murder himself. I think either way you should have compassion for the person who got murdered when you witnessed it but the murderer too, which may seem strange, but he needs to be saved from his sin just like we all do. I hope I haven't made your dilemma more confusing. Scripture says we're supposed to be subject to the authorities, but we're also supposed to have compassion on all sinners just like Jesus did. So I think that means that we should simply do what is required by the laws of the society in which we live, but also realize we are called to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet even though some of them might make it kind of hard to do so.
Wow Tom!!! Just look at all of the different scenarios you came up with!
By the way I don't personally know any murderers. Was just thinking about judging and how it would apply if I knew of someone like that. I guess you could apply this answer of yours to any thing that is a sin. What I was trying to get accross was, if you knew someone who you know is wrong in what they are doing then by saying who, or what they are is judging them by some peoples point of view. If I said so and so was a murderer, thief, or whatever and that it was wrong, it doesn't mean I am judging them as to what their punishment should be or not be, just stating a fact. We all need correction in some points I am sure. Is it our job to correct them, sometimes I think it is and should be. Reason I say this is, if you see a brother or sister sinning and something you say might help them see that whatever they are doing can cause them harm, I say to try to help them is showing them love.
CHB
I agree that it applies to all sin. I also agree that it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them overcome their sin, and it's not in the same context that I think Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge because we have to remember that judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.
Seems there's been good progress in this thread and insights. :thumbsup: Situation, meaning, context, intent...even word meanings, their application. That's what I was looking for and suspecting, because otherwise various scriptures that seem at odds "don't judge"/"judge rightly" wouldn't reconcile - and they must. Not one blanket meaning that covers each situation.
Keep it up. Once it's fleshed out, maybe we can come up with that little "go-to" pamphlet. :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on May 16, 2015, 11:59:58 PM
Keep it up. Once it's fleshed out, maybe we can come up with that little "go-to" pamphlet. :Peace2:
Seriously, I personally want to get out of this a succinct, few-sentence statement that addresses the various aspects if possible. This is getting pretty close, I tell 'ya; :)
Quote from: Tom on May 16, 2015, 11:41:10 PM
it applies to all sin...it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them [and ourselves] overcome sin, and it's not in the same context Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge.. judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.
I think of Jesus saying; 1)neither do I condemn you 2) go and sin no more
Even though that story wasn't in earlier manuscripts, it's a good one because it tells it like it is. Some people are always quick to condemn others but forget about their own sin. None of us is worthy, but those of us who believe are justified through Christ. We shouldn't let that cause us to be self-righteous though because we all sin. It's only by the grace of God that we aren't condemned.
I think we just have to be ever mindful that judging is not a negative thing because it's just the process of making a good decision about anything. I think all of God's judgments are righteous including segregating all evil in the lake of fire. I think the only problem is that most believers think that's the end of the story, but we who know better need to help them understand that it's not.
Quote from: Tom on May 17, 2015, 01:22:06 AM
I think we just have to be ever mindful that judging is not a negative thing because it's just the process of making a good decision about anything. I think all of God's judgments are righteous including segregating all evil in the lake of fire. I think the only problem is that most believers think that's the end of the story, but we who know better need to help them understand that it's not.
:iagree:
I truly believe when each person who believes in and loves Him honestly examines how graciously He has been to *them....and understands He is a good Father....who needs to correct at times, that the strongholds of a false representation preached about Him will be broken to smitherines.
His judgements teach men, heal men, restore people. He is our Savior, not our condemner.
Quote from: Tom on May 16, 2015, 11:41:10 PM
I agree that it applies to all sin. I also agree that it's showing brothers and sisters love trying to help them overcome their sin, and it's not in the same context that I think Jesus was talking about when he said not to judge because we have to remember that judging isn't always about condemning. It's simply making a good decision about something.
I agree Tom. Thanks.
CHB
Jesus didnt come to judge-condemn the world but that the world might be delivered-restored healrd by him. Those who have not received his word sre judged already. They are in Adam dying.
He is in us to judge-discern what is righteous and what is not. We discern all things. We condemn no one. In discernig and not condemning, but speaking the truth in love- we are able ministers of the word of reconciliation. We are alive in Christ. My words are spirit and life.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 17, 2015, 03:41:05 AM
Jesus didnt come to judge-condemn the world but that the world might be delivered-restored healrd by him. Those who have not received his word sre judged already. They are in Adam dying.
He is in us to judge-discern what is righteous and what is not. We discern all things. We condemn no one. In discernig and not condemning, but speaking the truth in love- we are able ministers of the word of reconciliation. We are alive in Christ. My words are spirit and life.
Amen and this is the truth
John, I feel many believe they are going to rule with Christ to restore in the next age , and this may be so in the sense they are in Christ
HIM being the first resurrection from among the dead [THE HEAD as leader = authority] RULER as a part of His Body [FIRST&LAST]
I believe it is more of this age of grace we are to be busy about the Fathers business
The Word tells us how to overcome the evil one
and the young men and fathers have overcome Him because greater is He that is in you than in the world
So I need more proof to believe that than just Rev 20 at face value or literal [still sealed]
Maybe some could help me here understand better their reasoning
My own reasoning is this, Jesus Christ Himself hold the keys to the hidden/ graves and death
Satan does not hold that power any longer since the Cross
I know many do not understand that part at all , that is, still in the world , being mortal and spiritually unborn yet , and many have died without ever knowing this much.
I do believe with all my heart Jesus is reigning now and the judgment seat of Christ is in effect
[Him being the LORD Ruler /Master of the dead and the Living ]
What if the dead and living do stand before HIM
in their last day as mortals as they rise to meet Him in the air ?
and the Living are reigning with Him [believers] , because we are ALL dead to God at the moment we are born mortals , and alive in and to the world and satan is the ruler of this world of mortality only ...
[ GOD is not the GOD of the dead but the Living and
all live to Him ]
It is Christ whom all the fulness dwells and He makes Alive
I know we use human reasoning all the time when we judge for ourselves all the time .
and the Scriptures do not make sense in human reasoning sometimes but try to make it fit
Some could say this is error because its not by faith at all, but human reasoning
This is the Babylon trap and so many daughters /doctrines of men come out from the Great Whore of the Earth [Idolatress woman ]
Not come out from Jesus Christ at all
One of the most significant clues is the patience of God and keeping His promises , as for the DAY being a 1000 years and 1000 years being a Day to GOD
But we literally take the 1000 years to be a 1000year reign , when It is a Day in the sight of God and children of the Day have been since the time of Paul's writings
and the DAY star rising in our hearts is Jesus Christ being lifted up to draw all men unto Him
I believe why so many do not understand is , just how personal and individual our relationship is in the Lord God almighty is . and cannot apply to everyone at that SAME time appointed , but can and will or has already for some , making the HOLY SPIRIT WITNESS OF TRUTH your reality and
many would believe by your testimony,,,, as we do these called and chosen ones in the WORD by the Holy Spirit witness of truth dwelling you you , like a quickening , a moving and stirring and shaking and Light and knowing by faith in hope by the Love of God on all
2 Peter 1
We Saw Christ's Glory
16 [L For] When we ·told [made known to] you about the ·powerful coming [or power and coming] of our Lord Jesus Christ, we were not ·telling [following; repeating] ·just clever stories that someone invented [or cleverly-concocted myths].
But we ·saw the greatness of Jesus with our own eyes [L were eyewitness of his majesty].
17 [L For] ·
Jesus heard the voice of God, the Greatest Glory [L When that voice came to him from the Majestic Glory],
when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice said, "This is my Son, whom I love, and I am very pleased with him [C a reference to the Transfiguration; Matt. 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:35]."
18
We heard that voice from heaven while we were with Jesus on the ·holy [sacred] mountain.19
·This makes us more sure about the message the prophets gave [or And we also have a reliable message from the prophets; L And we have the prophetic word confirmed; C probably referring to the Old Testament]. ·It is good for you [You do well] to follow closely what they said as you would follow a ·light [L lamp] shining in a dark place, until the day ·begins [L dawns] and the morning star rises in your hearts [Num. 24:17; Rev. 22:16; C the planet Venus as seen before sunrise, here symbolizing Christ].
20 ·Most [First] of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in the Scriptures ·ever comes from the prophet's own interpretation [or is a matter of one's own interpretation].
21
No prophecy ever came from ·what a person wanted to say [L human will/intention], but people ·led [carried; moved] by the Holy Spirit spoke words from God. [C True prophecy originates with God, not with the prophet.] When the Holy Spirit teaches us and bears witness to our heart , when'' the Word'' being Jesus Christ is seated there , than do we hear in our ear and learn of Him and His righteousness
Many are and I believe IN JESUS CHRIST PRESENCE , whom the crystal clear waters flow from His being present within them . John 7
Living Water
37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying,
"
If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive;
for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. May the Holy Spirit bear witness
we are nothing without Him , The TRUE Vine of Life and bearing branches living off of Him .
Another perspective:
---
Rev 12: 10-11
...And I hear a loud voice in the heaven saying, "Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night."
---
That's a decent template of what not to do ;p
---
verse 12 "And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."
---
For me, giving in to this world births shame, knowing that Jesus endures my sin. Still, sometimes it needs to be said aloud, if focus is lost. A loving reminder.
I agree, giving in to this world births shame. Thats why as believers, we give in to Jesus :o)
Amen , well said Ian and John
As Jesus Christ overcome the world by His cross and inherited all things as the Son of God being the excellent example and LIGHT /Love with wisdom & knowledge to show us the way
We to also must overcome the world though Him , by taking up our cross and follow His example unto death of this world , Greater is He who is in you than in the world
none will overcome without Him , but remain lifeless and dead to God , in the world and bound to it .[God is the God of the Living ]
Even the saints are overcome rev 13 , none by their own power can be victorious , nor glory in anything but GODS power in HOLY SPIRIT AND LIFE IN CHRIST
His Love for us and in us , conquers all things and inherits all things creating the sons of His glory , Gods will and desire to be made known,
on earth as it is in heaven .