TT instead of ET?

[eaglesway]

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

In revelations Jesus is twice portrayed as having eyes like flames of fire and a two edged sword coming out of Hs mouth. In the gospels He himself speaks of consuming "chaff", which He has separated from the "wheat" by the Spirit.

In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 "I, the Lord, am its keeper;

I also believe aionian fire will be painful, but not as fire on skin. Jesus says, where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

The worm is the creature of sin who must be slain by the word that divides asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow- MAKING MANIFEST.

It is the making manifest of that which is hidden that is painful.... "On the Day that God judges the secrets of men's hearts before Jesus Christ, their consciences either excusing or accusing them."

Everyone who is truly "in Christ" understands this. They have "been exposed" by the Spirit- divided asunder, and the blood of Jesus has healed the wound, and disposed of the worm.

Dragons are described often as worms in literature. The dragon with the tail in mouth is the "Worm Ourbourus" and is a feature of much of the mythology of antiquity from Shiva of India to Ragnarrok og Norse mythology- it is a common image.

This description of the Dragon in Job 41 is interesting.....

"Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook?
Or press down his tongue with a cord?....

"Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!

The tongue is a world of evil....from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.....the tongue of an arrogant man speaks wickedness.......if you have evil jealousy and selfish ambition, do be arrogant and lie against the Spirit, this wisdom is not form above but is earthly, soulish, demonic.

The dragon worm of the arrogant and rebellious will be slain by the sword of His mouth, when He appears it will destroy the veil that hides the secrets of the hearts and it will be painful, but as giving birth is painful to a woman, a new life will come out of it.

What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you,
You deceitful tongue?
Sharp arrows of the warrior,
With the burning coals of the broom tree.

burning coals of the broom tree...."and He will thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor" ...."His winnowing fork is in His hand".... He will purge the chaff with unquenchable fire".

Ever have the Lord really get into your stuff? Really turn you out? Drag you up from the hiding place where you hid your stubborness, or pride, your slithering Leviathan twisting and fleeing away?

Ouch. Want some pain? LOL. Better to relent before Him, BUT WE DON"T OFTEN DO IT THAT WAY DO WE LOL.

"Where else must you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?"(Isaiah)

That which God is after is rarely displayed on the surface and we rationalize it away a worry about sins that are only the surface leaves of the root He is after in the Spirit. So.....

We cant sit still, can't bear His presence in quietness long.... must be continually distracted and stimuated, and we know that He is saying , "Be still and know that I AM God". But we run on our way in haste, wagging our tongues - Lord have mercy.

Somehow we get fire as if some whip of physical pain will break the rebel but it is not that. The way in which God opens the vault of darkness where the dragon is bound in aidos chains is the LIGHT OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST, the veil tearer.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [c]so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

It is veiled to those who are perishing- apollumi- destroyed-lost, their worm turns in the fire and it is not quenched and it will not be until the chaff is off the wheat and the flaming arrows from the broom tree have pierced them and the word of the Lord has divided them and brought up the twisting fleeing dragon, that worm of lies woven through a life of rebellion, and the unraveling of it wll be painful like a tearing of a veil of flesh and it will be done by REVELATION OF ABSOLUTE LOVE_ WHICH IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

This is what Gehenna and the lake of fire and brimstone(theon- god fire) are all about, "For our God is a consuming fire"

If only we would let Him burn as brightly as He would if all the chaff were gone, if all the alloys were purged from the gold.

Lord have mercy on those who preach torment for others and mercy for themselves, their is only one fire and it is God Himself. It is seen through Jesus whose eyes are as flames of fire(the eye is the light of the soul). He allowed Himself to be completely consumed for the glory of God so He is the Lamp and the Daystar.

Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet I will make them as white as snow.....as white as refiners wool, like the hair on His head, like the garments of the Bride.

12"Yet even now," declares the LORD, "Return to Me with all your heart, And with fasting, weeping and mourning; And rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness And relenting of evil. 14Who knows whether He will not turn and relent And leave a blessing behind Him, Even a grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?

34All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable.  And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.

"That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them.  And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?"  Mark 4:10-13

What sees but is blind, what stands but is broken, what answers without having listened, what is angry at itself so it strikes another, what towers over that which it ought to bow before, what runs toward that which it ought to return from?

All these mysteries and more will be illuminated in the lake of fire :o)

Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

[Tom]

I think the only temporary torment will be for those judged at the great white throne when their sins will be exposed before they'll be cast into the lake of fire where I think they'll be dead not tormented because scripture says the lake of fire is the second death, but the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:10; 14) But then you could say life is temporary torment for all some of the time or some all of the time.

[eaglesway]

Well then, not much reason to worry bout that huh? LOL

The second death doesnt garantee that there will be know consciousness tho, because we arent told that the second death will be exactly the same as the first death.

Did Adam and Eve experience death as soon as they ate? Is death refferred to as a state of being in which people live, "dead while they live" as Paul says, or "Awake O sleeper, and arise from the dead".

I think the first death involves a lot more than just terminatin of life, it is the carnal nature that is the primary issue with the state in which Adam dwells. The terminal point of mortal life is just the final out working of death.

"The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace."

In my opinion, the scriptures do not contain death within the terminal point(actually dying physically), so that does not serve as a precedent with which to define the second death, or limit it as an unconscious experience.

Also if we look at MT 25:46 next to Revelations 14:10 we see that the fire that burns with brimstone, which was prepared for the devil and his angels in the presence of the Lord, where those who receive the mark of the beast and the number of his name are tormented, in the presence of the Lord. There is no torment/punishment/correction, timoria or kolassis in unconsciousness, and Jesus says in Mt 25 that those who said Lord, Lord but did not know Him will go into "fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Rev 20:10 shows us this is the same place, as does Rev 19:20 and 20:15

If we take all those verses  Mt 25:41, Rev 14:10, Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10, 15- and look at them together it is clear thay are all referring to the same experience of judgement. The lake of fire, however, imo, is a word image of a spiritual reality that goes beyond words, and any experience we can relate to in this life. It is aionian, it is olam- beyond the horizon- but according to Jesus it is to be avoided:

"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal(aionian/olam) fire". Mt 18:18

I doubt it is just going to sleep a second time, or ceasing to exist or be conscious, or the spirit returning to God a second time- there would be no purpose in that.

[Tom]

I think death is death whether it's the first, second, third, fourth, or whatever. I think an accurate translation says that Adam and Eve would be dying to die not dead. I think all the living are in the same process of dying to die, but, when the process is complete, you're dead for real, not a zombie, whether it's the first death or the second death. I don't see anything in scripture that leads me to believe dead folks are alive in some other form of life. I think that is simply the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church to support it's theology of immortal souls being tortured in fire forever. I think Matthew 25:46 refers to live nations who didn't do right by Israel, not dead unbelievers. http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html I think Matthew 18:8,9 refers to Gehenna where corpses will be burned not immortal souls. I think the "purpose in that," as you say of the second death, is to segregate all evil in the universe for the remainder of eonian time until the consummation when all will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross and God will be all in all. I know most people, even some who believe in universal reconciliation, want to believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and maybe an ex-lover will be tormented alive in fire while they're dead at least for the rest of the eons, but that ain't the way I see it.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just want to say welcome to the board, Lonely Summer.  :dsunny:

[rosered]

 
  the second death causes harm     
Just like the deadly wound being healed on the  beast but lived   
Rev 9
   so shall it be for us   , if we are not found in the first resurrection   being found IN the   life in Christ     

[rosered]

:cloud9: Just want to say welcome to the board, Lonely Summer.  :dsunny:

Nice gesture Card     :girlheart:
Sadly she has not been on the forum  since December 26, 2013, 09:19:11 AM       :sigh:

So many come and go   these days  :dunno2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: No matter. Seeds planted, amen?  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

I think death is spoken of as both the process of dying and the state of being dead. I definitely think there is some "harm" involved during the process, but, after the process is complete, it's all over.

[rosered]

:cloud9: No matter. Seeds planted, amen?  :HeartThrob:

Yes,,,    praying  to take  root  :Pray:

[rosered]

I think death is spoken of as both the process of dying and the state of being dead. I definitely think there is some "harm" involved during the process, but, after the process is complete, it's all over.

  First is water and the second by fire Bro
   I know the first  cleanses of filth of the flesh and gives a clean conscience     for Christ to dwell in   [ swept garnished Luke 11;25]   

  the second changes      , can a leopard change his spots   ? no
  but the   Lord changes the leopard

[Tom]

You lost me with the leopard, sis.

[Tom]

I think the first death you're referring to is the figurative death, when we share in the death of Christ, when we're baptized into the spirit and become one with Christ and the Father, but I'm talking about death for real like when you're really dead and ain't waking up until Christ snatches us away, and we meet him in the air. And then the second death isn't about getting your spots changed, even if you're not a leopard, but about unbelievers being out of the picture while believers are experiencing eonian life in Christ during the remainder of eonian time.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[eaglesway]

I think death is death whether it's the first, second, third, fourth, or whatever. I think an accurate translation says that Adam and Eve would be dying to die not dead. I think all the living are in the same process of dying to die, but, when the process is complete, you're dead for real, not a zombie, whether it's the first death or the second death. I don't see anything in scripture that leads me to believe dead folks are alive in some other form of life. I think that is simply the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church to support it's theology of immortal souls being tortured in fire forever. I think Matthew 25:46 refers to live nations who didn't do right by Israel, not dead unbelievers. http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html I think Matthew 18:8,9 refers to Gehenna where corpses will be burned not immortal souls. I think the "purpose in that," as you say of the second death, is to segregate all evil in the universe for the remainder of eonian time until the consummation when all will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross and God will be all in all. I know most people, even some who believe in universal reconciliation, want to believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and maybe an ex-lover will be tormented alive in fire while they're dead at least for the rest of the eons, but that ain't the way I see it.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

I think we have to read the scriptures and accept their testimony. Paul said to be carnally mindd is death. Their is nothing figurative about it.

Defining death in any other way than what the scriptures define it is opinion- mine versus yours I guess. :o)

To say, "Death is death" is meaningless. The scriptures define death. Arriving at an understanding based in the comprehensive testimony of scripture on any topic is the only meaningful destination- not to say which is right, mine or yours.

"Death is death" simply means, "Death is what I think it is, nt what you think it is"- no evidence, no refutation of Paul's, "To be carnally minded is death" other than to call it figurative death.

To be carnally minded is death and it is not figurative, in my opinion. Paul says nowhere there, anything to give a figurative meaning. To be "dead in your sins" is to be in an unregenerated state in Adam- very real and distictive from "life in Christ".

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[Tom]

I know we've been round and round about this more than once, but I don't think anybody's immortal right now except Christ. I think believers will be immortalized when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air, and unbelievers will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

[eaglesway]

I didnt say anything about being immortal. I thought we were talking about the second death, which you were saying is simply a second reduction to unconsciousness, and I was saying death is more than that, it is a state of being, and the second death is also.  :dunno2:

[rosered]

You lost me with the leopard, sis.

I was referring to
  Jeremiah 13  Bro Tom

   ...22"If you say in your heart, 'Why have these things happened to me?'


Because of the magnitude of your iniquity Your skirts have been removed And your heels have been exposed.


23"Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots?


Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil. 24"Therefore I will scatter them like drifting straw To the desert wind....

  They will be humbled and made low and that will change them all   

[Tom]

I think immortality is relevant to the second death discussion because you need to believe there is consciousness in death to think there will be some kind of torment or chastening in the lake of fire which scripture says is the second death. I realize some folks believe it is a figurative death, and some believe you're alive when you're dead. But I don't go along with either of those ideas.

[Tom]

I'm sorry, sis. I forgot about Jeremiah and the leopard's spots. This crazy old head of mine gets a little spaced out sometimes. I'm just starting to get what's left of my memory back after getting over a virus that was kickin my butt for a couple of weeks. But I'm still trying to figure out how a leopard's spots relate to death.

[rosered]

I'm sorry, sis. I forgot about Jeremiah and the leopard's spots. This crazy old head of mine gets a little spaced out sometimes. I'm just starting to get what's left of my memory back after getting over a virus that was kickin my butt for a couple of weeks. But I'm still trying to figure out how a leopard's spots relate to death.

  It was more of being changed at   2nd  death,  and  made  a  new  creature   in Christ

   

[Tom]

I think we believers will be changed when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air a thousand years before the great white throne leading to the second death, and only unbelievers will go into the second death-the lake of fire.

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

I think the idea of chastening or torment of unbelievers when they're dead in the second death-the lake of fire is the same idea as the Roman Catholic purgatory, and I think that's with the assumption of immortality of the soul because one must be alive to be conscious of any chastening or torment. I was raised to believe in purgatory and its crazy sidekick limbo, but I don't believe any of that now. I used to be bothered more by limbo because I couldn't understand why infants had to stay there instead of going to heaven as I was told. But I don't believe any of that stuff about dead souls being in purgatory or limbo or being chastened or tormented in the second death-the lake of fire because I think dead souls are simply unseen, figuratively sleeping, until believers are vivified and snatched away to meet Christ in the air, and unbelievers are vivified when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html

[Tom]

The only beings scripture says will be tormented in the lake of fire for the eons of the eons are the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. (Revelation 20:10)

Mortals, who are subject to death, will be dead in the second death-the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)

"The soul that is sinning, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4,20)

"The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

[Tom]

2 Peter 2:9 seems to be saying the chastening will occur in the day of judging. See the attachment.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tom]

Here's something else to blow your mind. Jesus went to "hell," but Satan never will.