Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?
There are various views on this. Some feel LoF is right now.
Some feel LoF is after we die.
But LoF never is torture. It's a lerning experience. Not always nice but no torture. (as can be seen in the greek)
Tormented is not equal to tortured.
Quote
But LoF never is torture. It's a lerning experience. Not always nice but no torture. (as can be seen in the greek)
Tormented is not equal to tortured.
riginal Word Word Origin
βάσανος perhaps remotely from the same as (939) (through the notion of going to the bottom)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
basanos bas'-an-os
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Masculine 1:561,96
Definition
1. a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2. the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
3. torture, torment, acute pains
1. of the pains of a disease
2. of those in hell after death T.T. mode:
How do we know those last 2 definitions don't apply?
Proponents of T.T. (temporary torture) also say that simply "divine testing" minimizes the sacrifice of Christ... Christ didn't just come to save us from death, but also from the wrath of God which always will involve torture - or at least in the final judgment...
Not a stupid question at all. :bigGrin: As I understand, Jesus only ever used the term kolasis aionios (temporary discipline/correction for a time/age) rather than kolasis timora [*Correction - punishment for revenge]. Hope that helps.
From L. Ray Smith, bibletruths.com - The word "kolasin" is better translated "chastening" which agrees with pruning or cutting off. And "aionio" mean "eonian"—pertaining to the aions, hence "chastening eonian" is the proper translation. And "life eonian" is also proper. Hence both times "aionio" is eonian and not eternal. The life that is promised to the elect who overcome is life for the eons—"eonian life." They are promised rulership with Jesus on this earth over the nations, Rev. 2:26. They are NOT promised rulership over the nations for all eternity, as not even Christ Himself rules over the nations eternally:
"Then comes the END, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, TILL [and no longer] He has put all enemies under His feet. The LAST enemy that shall be destroyed [abolished] is death" (I Cor. 15:24-26).
The proper translation "punishment" is used but one time only with reference to sinners, and that is in Heb. 10:29, and nowhere else in the entire New Testament!
...The word is "aionion" and it means "eonian" not eternal. Actually a proper translation of this phrase is, "the justice of eonian extermination." Now lest anyone think that some "exterminated" is beyond the redemption of the cross, consider that this very same Greek word "olehtros" is found in I Cor. 5:5 where we read this:
"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction [extermination] of the flesh, that the spirit MAY BE SAVED in the day of the Lord Jesus."
Yes, to the utter chagrin of many a holier-than-thou Christian theologian, there will be MANY SAVED in the Day of the Lord Jesus!
I "borrowed" this from one of TM member Universalist Catholic's posts - "In the new testament, Jesus is very careful about what words he uses. Throughout the scriptures, when describing the duration of punishment, the bible uses the word aion, which doesnt signify eternity like such words as aleutosis, adion. And for the description of punishment, its always kolasis, meaning correction, not timora, which is for the sake of revenge."
*Correction made to reply # 3 above after a little research. Sorry. :mblush:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/the_bible_makes_strong_case_against_eternal_torment._8349.msg98878.html#msg98878
We refer to the Greek word kolasin, translated "punishment," in verse 46. This word has not in it the remotest idea of torment. Its primary signification is to cut off, or prune, or lop off, as in the pruning of trees; and a secondary meaning is to restrain. The wicked will be everlastingly restrained, cut off from life in the Second death. Illustrations of the use of kolasin can easily be had from Greek classical writings. The Greek word for "torment" is basinos, a word totally unrelated to the word kolasin.
http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r2607.htm
Quote from: WhiteWings on February 08, 2011, 08:23:38 AM
We refer to the Greek word kolasin, translated "punishment," in verse 46. This word has not in it the remotest idea of torment. Its primary signification is to cut off, or prune, or lop off, as in the pruning of trees; and a secondary meaning is to restrain. The wicked will be everlastingly restrained, cut off from life in the Second death. Illustrations of the use of kolasin can easily be had from Greek classical writings. The Greek word for "torment" is basinos, a word totally unrelated to the word kolasin.
http://www.divineplan.org/htdbv5/r2607.htm
Not to confuse the subject but to give a more well rounded view of kolasis, it can certainly mean punish. Kolazo/kolasw in classic greek means to prune or cut off. But, from most sources it seems that it evolved into punish or chastise by NT times. While kolasis is a derivative, in Koine Greek it appears by most accounts that the meaning was indeed punish or chastise.
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise. Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children. To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone). Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge. So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.
Continuing with this discussion, I found the following that Gary has listed in the TM articles;
Professor A.T. Robertson and A.B. Bruce agree that 'kolasis aionion' of the KJV has a literal meaning of 'age-lasting correction.'"
"Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word 'eternity.' We have fallen into great error in our constant usage of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our eternal..."
-G. Campbell Morgan
An argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness. But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order. How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.
Those who believe in a universal salvation as is spoken of at Col. 1:15-20, and see the purpose of God's love and His plan for the eons, are secure in their belief that the same number of those who are now dying as a result of Adam's disobedience will be made alive in Christ. The ALL of these verses represent exactly the same number of mankind. Romans 5:18-19 says, "by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men-by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men-by one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall the many be made righteous." The "all men" and the "many" in these verses include the same number of humans in both cases [the same "the many" that died are the same "the many" that will live].
The "all" in 1 Cor. 15:22; Col. 1:15-22; and Rom. 5:18-19 mean the same in every case. God's eonian purpose is to head up ALL in the Christ, as is stated in Eph. 1:9-10 and 3:11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucF_C7rYe58
Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2011, 10:13:07 AM
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise. Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children. To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone). Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge. So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.
I would agree.
Quote from: shawn on February 08, 2011, 11:20:21 AM
Quote from: jabcat on February 08, 2011, 10:13:07 AM
I personally don't have a "problem" with punish or chastise. Good parents do that - lovingly - to their disobedient children. To me, it's still much different than torture or the popular useage of 'torment' (which actually means test for purity, as with a touchstone). Also, it's different than timora, which I've seen means something akin to revenge. So punish or chastise still fits both the scriptures and God's good character, in my view.
I would agree.
Yes, I as well agree.
Revelation 20:10 says "the devil who deceived... is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are" (these are not individuals) 'and they will be tormented" (which word others have studied and pointed out here in this thread, "tormented") "for ever and ever".
But! the word translated (for) "ever" is the Greek word "aion" (Strong's Concordance #165 of the Greek) and means "an age, space of time, continued duration". We humans have translated it to mean 'forever and ever'.
Yet also, if we note Revelation 20:15 "and whoever's name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life is thrown into the Lake of Fire". Surely a possible understanding of that is, "whoever does not believe, is/will be thrown into the Lake of Fire". But these persons of "the Second Resurrection" (of all who have died not being saved) will not hear this proclamation until -1- they have experienced being resurrected, and -2- they have witnessed what can only be a very long 'day' of the examination of all things (by my reckoning lasting 500 years because if the Spring Hebrew Holy Days prophesied the 1st Advent of Jesus, the Fall ones prophecy the long 2nd Advent of Jesus, with the "ten days" (one thousand years) between "Trumpets" and "Day of Atonement" and the "five days" (five hundred years) between "Day of Atonement" and "Tabernacles" "and God Himself will Tabernacle with man" (21:3 King James). But perhaps I wander... My point being, after experiencing being resurrected and the Day of Judgment (the examination of all things and human history) after all that, who is not going to "believe"?
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2011, 05:38:44 AM
after all that, who is not going to "believe"?
Answer - no one. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord. Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Amen. God is good. Even better than we know.
Quote from: Lonely Summer on January 26, 2011, 08:47:35 AM
Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?
Hello Lonely Summer,
Hope I'm not too late to the party. Your question is not at all stupid, in fact it's a major theological hurdle for many who accept the doctrine of universal reconciliation. Stated another way, you're questioning why it is that if Christ died for all our sins then why should there be any "hell" for anybody? But on the other hand, if people can "earn" their salvation via punishment in hell then why did Christ have to die at all?
From my perspective, the confusion is caused by the nuances of the word "sin". First, because of our sins (plural), we were all estranged from God and unable to enter any relationship with Him at all. Christ died to pay the penalty for those sins and made it possible for us to be in the right relationship with God. This part of salvation is know as "justification." We enter this justification when we acknowledge our guilt and accept that Christ paid the price that we couldn't pay.
The second problem is our sin (singular), our fallen nature. This doesn't just go away when we are reconciled. But thank God His plan is to mold us into the people He wants us to be - though that's not always an easy path (from our point of view) God often uses pain in this process, also known as sanctification. See James 1:2-4, basically James is saying to believers that pain+endurance=becoming perfect. If it works that way on this side of the grave, why not after death as well?
That's my thinking on post-mortem torment anyway, it has nothing to do with sins (because they were dealt with on the cross) and everything to do with sin.
Quote from: Mr.Irrelevant on February 15, 2011, 07:41:28 PM
Quote from: Lonely Summer on January 26, 2011, 08:47:35 AM
Okay, I'm new here, so please forgive if this sounds like a stupid question, but reading various threads on the board here, it appears that there will be Temporary Torment for many (or all?) when we die, instead of Eternal Torment? I hope I am understanding this correctly. Depending on how much one has sinned or done wrong in their life, there will be a proportional amount of punishment in the afterlife?
Hello Lonely Summer,
Hope I'm not too late to the party. Your question is not at all stupid, in fact it's a major theological hurdle for many who accept the doctrine of universal reconciliation. Stated another way, you're questioning why it is that if Christ died for all our sins then why should there be any "hell" for anybody? But on the other hand, if people can "earn" their salvation via punishment in hell then why did Christ have to die at all?
From my perspective, the confusion is caused by the nuances of the word "sin". First, because of our sins (plural), we were all estranged from God and unable to enter any relationship with Him at all. Christ died to pay the penalty for those sins and made it possible for us to be in the right relationship with God. This part of salvation is know as "justification." We enter this justification when we acknowledge our guilt and accept that Christ paid the price that we couldn't pay.
The second problem is our sin (singular), our fallen nature. This doesn't just go away when we are reconciled. But thank God His plan is to mold us into the people He wants us to be - though that's not always an easy path (from our point of view) God often uses pain in this process, also known as sanctification. See James 1:2-4, basically James is saying to believers that pain+endurance=becoming perfect. If it works that way on this side of the grave, why not after death as well?
That's my thinking on post-mortem torment anyway, it has nothing to do with sins (because they were dealt with on the cross) and everything to do with sin.
This is currently how I see it. There is a process of purification in this life. I think it's reasonable to believe that the LoF is the purification after death. It's not about payment. When we go through trials here it's to mature us in Christ. It isn't a payment issue as the payment has been made in full.
Christ died to buy the fruit of God's creation back from every deadly thing, and the price is paid in full. But now that Christ has his fruit, it would be of little use to him if he didn't make us ripen each after our own turn. Unripe fruit tends to be not so very good, and ripening fruit takes time, especially those fruits who are not even ready at all to ripen fully in this life.
QuoteChrist died to buy the fruit of God's creation back from every deadly thing, and the price is paid in full. But now that Christ has his fruit, it would be of little use to him if he didn't make us ripen each after our own turn. Unripe fruit tends to be not so very good, and ripening fruit takes time, especially those fruits who are not even ready at all to ripen fully in this life.
:thumbsup: :cloud9:
right!
and ripe fruit make the BEST WINE..of which He saved for last
ps
all our temporary torment happens while were still in the flesh[this body of death ]. death being the final enemy.in the spirit there is no pain
every knee shall bow...the fire comes down and consumes all opponets to the camp in the wilderness..everyone enters...even those alive at that
event are caughtup to meet that city in the clouds coming down from heaven...no more pain,tear
Don't shrink back from the Lamb of God that takes away all the people's sin's
Tamar gave birth to twins, first Zerah[dawning light] put forth his hand...and a red thread was tied about his wrist, then He withdrew his hand[shrink back]
and Perez[breach] occurred, then Zerah was brought forth.
Zechariah 9;13 I will awaken your sons,OZion can a nation be brought forth in a day...
Ezekiel 36;13 a prophecy to the mountains of Israel..But you,OMountains of Israel will produce branches and fruit for my people Israel......
FOR THEY WILL SOON COME HOME....and I will multiply the number of people on you..EVEN THE WHOLE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
I will cause people,my people Israel,to walk upon you. They will possess you,and you will be their inheritance,
YOU WILL NEVER AGAIN DEPRIVE THEM OF THEIR CHILDREN
this si what the Sovereihn Lord says; Because people say to you...'YOU DEVOUR MEN AND DEPRIVE YOUR NATION OF IT'S CHILDREN...
therefore, you will no longer devour men or make your nation childless
v 24-38...read the four stages of restoration.....there is no torment involved in this
Ezekiel 37;12 O my people,I am going to open your graves and bring you UP from them....I will bring you back to the land of Israel
then you, my people will know that I am the Lord,when I open your graves and bring you up from them.I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT IN YOU AND YOU WILL LIVE
ps; re the books that were opened and the judgement the book of the law concluded all mankind in sin....mankind will
not rely on it's works for salvation,but on Christ's work of redemption... mankind is spotless before God legally in any judgement
due to Christ paying the full debt of sin and atoning
Now, He has written, I will not let you go entirely unpunished9JEREMIAH 30;11 i WILL DISCIPLINE YOU,BUT ONLY WITH JUSTICE
ALSO,hE WROTE,YOUR OWN SIN WILL REBUKE YOU...ARE WE CHASTIZED?YES...BUT HE HIMSELF SWORE AN OATH
iSAAIH 54;9 TO ME THIS IS LIKE THE DAYS OF nOAH,WHEN i SWORE THAT THE WATERS OF nOAH WOULD NEVER COVER THE EARTH AGAIN
SO NOW,I HAVE SWORN NOT TO BE ANGRY WITH YOU,NEVER TO REBUKE YOU AGAIN........MY UNFAILING LOVE FOR YOU WILL NOT BE SHAKEN
NOR MY COVENANT OF PEACE BE REMOVED,SAYS THE LORD WHO HAS COMPASSION ON YOU
I believe the punishment is whatever it takes for us to submit to Gods will and accept Jesus as our Savior. It can be can be unexplainabley painful but only for our ultimate good. Not all do that in our life time....we are not all made able to. But we all will be made able to, exactly how and when. I'm not sure, but I know He will make good of all His creation. :dsunny:
12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
In revelations Jesus is twice portrayed as having eyes like flames of fire and a two edged sword coming out of Hs mouth. In the gospels He himself speaks of consuming "chaff", which He has separated from the "wheat" by the Spirit.
In that day the Lord will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent,
With His fierce and great and mighty sword,
Even Leviathan the twisted serpent;
And He will kill the dragon who lives in the sea.
2 In that day,
"A vineyard of wine, sing of it!
3 "I, the Lord, am its keeper;
I also believe aionian fire will be painful, but not as fire on skin. Jesus says, where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.
The worm is the creature of sin who must be slain by the word that divides asunder soul and spirit, bone and marrow- MAKING MANIFEST.
It is the making manifest of that which is hidden that is painful.... "On the Day that God judges the secrets of men's hearts before Jesus Christ, their consciences either excusing or accusing them."
Everyone who is truly "in Christ" understands this. They have "been exposed" by the Spirit- divided asunder, and the blood of Jesus has healed the wound, and disposed of the worm.
Dragons are described often as worms in literature. The dragon with the tail in mouth is the "Worm Ourbourus" and is a feature of much of the mythology of antiquity from Shiva of India to Ragnarrok og Norse mythology- it is a common image.
This description of the Dragon in Job 41 is interesting.....
"Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook?
Or press down his tongue with a cord?....
"Lay your hand on him;
Remember the battle; you will not do it again!
The tongue is a world of evil....from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.....the tongue of an arrogant man speaks wickedness.......if you have evil jealousy and selfish ambition, do be arrogant and lie against the Spirit, this wisdom is not form above but is earthly, soulish, demonic.
The dragon worm of the arrogant and rebellious will be slain by the sword of His mouth, when He appears it will destroy the veil that hides the secrets of the hearts and it will be painful, but as giving birth is painful to a woman, a new life will come out of it.
What shall be given to you, and what more shall be done to you,
You deceitful tongue?
Sharp arrows of the warrior,
With the burning coals of the broom tree.
burning coals of the broom tree...."and He will thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor" ...."His winnowing fork is in His hand".... He will purge the chaff with unquenchable fire".
Ever have the Lord really get into your stuff? Really turn you out? Drag you up from the hiding place where you hid your stubborness, or pride, your slithering Leviathan twisting and fleeing away?
Ouch. Want some pain? LOL. Better to relent before Him, BUT WE DON"T OFTEN DO IT THAT WAY DO WE LOL.
"Where else must you be stricken as you continue in your rebellion?"(Isaiah)
That which God is after is rarely displayed on the surface and we rationalize it away a worry about sins that are only the surface leaves of the root He is after in the Spirit. So.....
We cant sit still, can't bear His presence in quietness long.... must be continually distracted and stimuated, and we know that He is saying , "Be still and know that I AM God". But we run on our way in haste, wagging our tongues - Lord have mercy.
Somehow we get fire as if some whip of physical pain will break the rebel but it is not that. The way in which God opens the vault of darkness where the dragon is bound in aidos chains is the LIGHT OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF CHRIST, the veil tearer.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [c]so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
It is veiled to those who are perishing- apollumi- destroyed-lost, their worm turns in the fire and it is not quenched and it will not be until the chaff is off the wheat and the flaming arrows from the broom tree have pierced them and the word of the Lord has divided them and brought up the twisting fleeing dragon, that worm of lies woven through a life of rebellion, and the unraveling of it wll be painful like a tearing of a veil of flesh and it will be done by REVELATION OF ABSOLUTE LOVE_ WHICH IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
This is what Gehenna and the lake of fire and brimstone(theon- god fire) are all about, "For our God is a consuming fire"
If only we would let Him burn as brightly as He would if all the chaff were gone, if all the alloys were purged from the gold.
Lord have mercy on those who preach torment for others and mercy for themselves, their is only one fire and it is God Himself. It is seen through Jesus whose eyes are as flames of fire(the eye is the light of the soul). He allowed Himself to be completely consumed for the glory of God so He is the Lamp and the Daystar.
Come let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet I will make them as white as snow.....as white as refiners wool, like the hair on His head, like the garments of the Bride.
12"Yet even now," declares the LORD, "Return to Me with all your heart, And with fasting, weeping and mourning; And rend your heart and not your garments." Now return to the LORD your God, For He is gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger, abounding in lovingkindness And relenting of evil. 14Who knows whether He will not turn and relent And leave a blessing behind Him, Even a grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?
34All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."
"And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.
"That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?" Mark 4:10-13
What sees but is blind, what stands but is broken, what answers without having listened, what is angry at itself so it strikes another, what towers over that which it ought to bow before, what runs toward that which it ought to return from?
All these mysteries and more will be illuminated in the lake of fire :o)
Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
I think the only temporary torment will be for those judged at the great white throne when their sins will be exposed before they'll be cast into the lake of fire where I think they'll be dead not tormented because scripture says the lake of fire is the second death, but the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. (Revelation 20:10; 14) But then you could say life is temporary torment for all some of the time or some all of the time.
Well then, not much reason to worry bout that huh? LOL
The second death doesnt garantee that there will be know consciousness tho, because we arent told that the second death will be exactly the same as the first death.
Did Adam and Eve experience death as soon as they ate? Is death refferred to as a state of being in which people live, "dead while they live" as Paul says, or "Awake O sleeper, and arise from the dead".
I think the first death involves a lot more than just terminatin of life, it is the carnal nature that is the primary issue with the state in which Adam dwells. The terminal point of mortal life is just the final out working of death.
"The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace."
In my opinion, the scriptures do not contain death within the terminal point(actually dying physically), so that does not serve as a precedent with which to define the second death, or limit it as an unconscious experience.
Also if we look at MT 25:46 next to Revelations 14:10 we see that the fire that burns with brimstone, which was prepared for the devil and his angels in the presence of the Lord, where those who receive the mark of the beast and the number of his name are tormented, in the presence of the Lord. There is no torment/punishment/correction, timoria or kolassis in unconsciousness, and Jesus says in Mt 25 that those who said Lord, Lord but did not know Him will go into "fire prepared for the devil and his angels". Rev 20:10 shows us this is the same place, as does Rev 19:20 and 20:15
If we take all those verses Mt 25:41, Rev 14:10, Rev 19:20, Rev 20:10, 15- and look at them together it is clear thay are all referring to the same experience of judgement. The lake of fire, however, imo, is a word image of a spiritual reality that goes beyond words, and any experience we can relate to in this life. It is aionian, it is olam- beyond the horizon- but according to Jesus it is to be avoided:
"If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal(aionian/olam) fire". Mt 18:18
I doubt it is just going to sleep a second time, or ceasing to exist or be conscious, or the spirit returning to God a second time- there would be no purpose in that.
I think death is death whether it's the first, second, third, fourth, or whatever. I think an accurate translation says that Adam and Eve would be dying to die not dead. I think all the living are in the same process of dying to die, but, when the process is complete, you're dead for real, not a zombie, whether it's the first death or the second death. I don't see anything in scripture that leads me to believe dead folks are alive in some other form of life. I think that is simply the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church to support it's theology of immortal souls being tortured in fire forever. I think Matthew 25:46 refers to live nations who didn't do right by Israel, not dead unbelievers. http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html I think Matthew 18:8,9 refers to Gehenna where corpses will be burned not immortal souls. I think the "purpose in that," as you say of the second death, is to segregate all evil in the universe for the remainder of eonian time until the consummation when all will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross and God will be all in all. I know most people, even some who believe in universal reconciliation, want to believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and maybe an ex-lover will be tormented alive in fire while they're dead at least for the rest of the eons, but that ain't the way I see it.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
:cloud9: Just want to say welcome to the board, Lonely Summer. :dsunny:
the second death causes harm
Just like the deadly wound being healed on the beast but lived
Rev 9
so shall it be for us , if we are not found in the first resurrection being found IN the life in Christ
Quote from: Cardinal on May 19, 2015, 08:37:46 PM
:cloud9: Just want to say welcome to the board, Lonely Summer. :dsunny:
Nice gesture Card :girlheart:
Sadly she has not been on the forum since December 26, 2013, 09:19:11 AM :sigh:
So many come and go these days :dunno2:
:cloud9: No matter. Seeds planted, amen? :HeartThrob:
I think death is spoken of as both the process of dying and the state of being dead. I definitely think there is some "harm" involved during the process, but, after the process is complete, it's all over.
Quote from: Cardinal on May 19, 2015, 08:43:29 PM
:cloud9: No matter. Seeds planted, amen? :HeartThrob:
Yes,,, praying to take root :Pray:
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 08:44:51 PM
I think death is spoken of as both the process of dying and the state of being dead. I definitely think there is some "harm" involved during the process, but, after the process is complete, it's all over.
First is water and the second by fire Bro
I know the first cleanses of filth of the flesh and gives a clean conscience for Christ to dwell in [ swept garnished Luke 11;25]
the second changes , can a leopard change his spots ? no
but the Lord changes the leopard
You lost me with the leopard, sis.
I think the first death you're referring to is the figurative death, when we share in the death of Christ, when we're baptized into the spirit and become one with Christ and the Father, but I'm talking about death for real like when you're really dead and ain't waking up until Christ snatches us away, and we meet him in the air. And then the second death isn't about getting your spots changed, even if you're not a leopard, but about unbelievers being out of the picture while believers are experiencing eonian life in Christ during the remainder of eonian time.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 08:25:39 PM
I think death is death whether it's the first, second, third, fourth, or whatever. I think an accurate translation says that Adam and Eve would be dying to die not dead. I think all the living are in the same process of dying to die, but, when the process is complete, you're dead for real, not a zombie, whether it's the first death or the second death. I don't see anything in scripture that leads me to believe dead folks are alive in some other form of life. I think that is simply the philosophy of Plato adopted by the church to support it's theology of immortal souls being tortured in fire forever. I think Matthew 25:46 refers to live nations who didn't do right by Israel, not dead unbelievers. http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html I think Matthew 18:8,9 refers to Gehenna where corpses will be burned not immortal souls. I think the "purpose in that," as you say of the second death, is to segregate all evil in the universe for the remainder of eonian time until the consummation when all will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross and God will be all in all. I know most people, even some who believe in universal reconciliation, want to believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and maybe an ex-lover will be tormented alive in fire while they're dead at least for the rest of the eons, but that ain't the way I see it.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
I think we have to read the scriptures and accept their testimony. Paul said to be carnally mindd is death. Their is nothing figurative about it.
Defining death in any other way than what the scriptures define it is opinion- mine versus yours I guess. :o)
To say, "Death is death" is meaningless. The scriptures define death. Arriving at an understanding based in the comprehensive testimony of scripture on any topic is the only meaningful destination- not to say which is right, mine or yours.
"Death is death" simply means, "Death is what I think it is, nt what you think it is"- no evidence, no refutation of Paul's, "To be carnally minded is death" other than to call it figurative death.
To be carnally minded is death and it is not figurative, in my opinion. Paul says nowhere there, anything to give a figurative meaning. To be "dead in your sins" is to be in an unregenerated state in Adam- very real and distictive from "life in Christ".
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5
even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
I know we've been round and round about this more than once, but I don't think anybody's immortal right now except Christ. I think believers will be immortalized when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air, and unbelievers will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
I didnt say anything about being immortal. I thought we were talking about the second death, which you were saying is simply a second reduction to unconsciousness, and I was saying death is more than that, it is a state of being, and the second death is also. :dunno2:
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 08:55:45 PM
You lost me with the leopard, sis.
I was referring to
Jeremiah 13 Bro Tom
...22
"If you say in your heart, 'Why have these things happened to me?' Because of the magnitude of your iniquity Your skirts have been removed And your heels have been exposed.
23"
Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots?
Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil. 24"Therefore I will scatter them like drifting straw To the desert wind....
They will be humbled and made low and that will change them all
I think immortality is relevant to the second death discussion because you need to believe there is consciousness in death to think there will be some kind of torment or chastening in the lake of fire which scripture says is the second death. I realize some folks believe it is a figurative death, and some believe you're alive when you're dead. But I don't go along with either of those ideas.
I'm sorry, sis. I forgot about Jeremiah and the leopard's spots. This crazy old head of mine gets a little spaced out sometimes. I'm just starting to get what's left of my memory back after getting over a virus that was kickin my butt for a couple of weeks. But I'm still trying to figure out how a leopard's spots relate to death.
Quote from: Tom on May 19, 2015, 11:15:01 PM
I'm sorry, sis. I forgot about Jeremiah and the leopard's spots. This crazy old head of mine gets a little spaced out sometimes. I'm just starting to get what's left of my memory back after getting over a virus that was kickin my butt for a couple of weeks. But I'm still trying to figure out how a leopard's spots relate to death.
It was more of being changed at 2nd death, and made a new creature in Christ
I think we believers will be changed when we're snatched away to meet Christ in the air a thousand years before the great white throne leading to the second death, and only unbelievers will go into the second death-the lake of fire.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I think the idea of chastening or torment of unbelievers when they're dead in the second death-the lake of fire is the same idea as the Roman Catholic purgatory, and I think that's with the assumption of immortality of the soul because one must be alive to be conscious of any chastening or torment. I was raised to believe in purgatory and its crazy sidekick limbo, but I don't believe any of that now. I used to be bothered more by limbo because I couldn't understand why infants had to stay there instead of going to heaven as I was told. But I don't believe any of that stuff about dead souls being in purgatory or limbo or being chastened or tormented in the second death-the lake of fire because I think dead souls are simply unseen, figuratively sleeping, until believers are vivified and snatched away to meet Christ in the air, and unbelievers are vivified when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/WhatIsDeath.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/DeathAndJudgment/TheLakeOfFire.html
The only beings scripture says will be tormented in the lake of fire for the eons of the eons are the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet. (Revelation 20:10)
Mortals, who are subject to death, will be dead in the second death-the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)
"The soul that is sinning, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4,20)
"The dead know nothing." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
2 Peter 2:9 seems to be saying the chastening will occur in the day of judging. See the attachment.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Here's something else to blow your mind. Jesus went to "hell," but Satan never will.
I think the suffering of the unjust will reach its peak at the great white throne while they are judged, but the second death-the lake of fire will actually be a release from suffering.
I believe God breathes spirit into an organic body, and the combination produces sensation or soul. I also believe at death the spirit returns to God, the body returns to the soil, and sensation or soul ceases to exist. That is the true "hell" of the scriptures. Not only did Jesus, but every believer who dies goes to "hell" because "hell" is simply the unseen state of dead souls. That's why Satan doesn't hang out there because he's a spirit being who won't die like mortals. That's also why he doesn't die in the lake of fire where all the unjust mortals will die, but they'll eventually be vivified when death is abolished and reconciled to God just like Satan and his buddies will be because Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens to God. Most folks think Satan is in "hell," but he's actually in heaven until he and his buddies will be cast down to earth. (Revelation 12:9)
Wow, I wish I could have found this stuff when I was sick for the last couple of weeks. I think I would've felt better right away.
http://i.imgur.com/rstYJP0.jpg
Quote from: Tom on May 20, 2015, 02:56:27 AM
I think the suffering of the unjust will reach its peak at the great white throne while they are judged, but the second death-the lake of fire will actually be a release from suffering.
Well, :o)
We are not that far off from each other after all then LOL.
I see the process in a similar way, I just see the suffering more on the lake of fire side of it. "As one passing through the fire"
But the lake of fire, for me is just a word image for the trying, testing, purging of those who are "weighed in the balance and found wanting". The fire I see them passing through, is probably the same judgment you see at the GWT- but I definitely see the release as they come through the fire. As in Rev 14:10 this takes place in the presence of God and His holy angels, the fire is right there proceeding from the throne and the assembly of the holy ones anyway. I certainly dont think the details are given so clearly that we can kno in detail now- but for me, passing through the fire is being at the feet of Jesus, enthroned in the midst of His angels and 10,000s and 10,000s of His holy ones.
Like the seraphim wheels within wheels with eyes all around and in the center beneath the wheels the coals of fire from which one was taken to touch Isaiah.
Woe unto me, I am a man of unclean lips
Here this coal has touched your lips and yur sin is forgiven.
I see that process in Isaiah 6 as representative in micro of the whole judgment thing in macro. Wheels within wheels(ages, times), eyes all around,(7 spirits of God sent over the whole earth, he will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, His eyes as flames of fire, seeing into the core of the being), fire touching the lips, the taming of the tongue by the piercing of the heart(everyknee bow, every tongue confess, with the heart, belief, with the tongue confession).
I guess we will have to wait and see LOLOLHAHAHA
We live and walk in death every day , to be carnally minded is death , the wisdom of the world is death . the blinded minds by the subentity of the serpent This entity is a subentity of itself, due to a loop in the sub entity hierarchy. .. to the spiritual mind of Christ being subject to HIM NOW ... JUDGING NOW the kings of the earth and their children the princes /judges
In Adam death was what he was walking in after eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil , He was not walking in the SPIRIT any longer ...
The curse come on the ground for Adams sake , and we know Eve as the mother of all the living , she conceived once and bore twice ... two sons one of the earth and one of the heavens
the earth one [a man ] Cain in anger because the ground was cursed , killed the spiritual one Able the one of faith and herder of sheep and his blood was spilled upon the earth as a witness till all the innocent blood was shed for the guilty
If you can see it , if you cannot that fine also that just shows us where we are in Christ , alive or dead , one or the other
We are one or the other dead works or living works Cain was a man and of the dead works anything of the ground was cursed of God and still is to This Day
Christ Jesus being the avenger of all that blood shed from the foundation of the World was going to put the kings of the earth and their princes at odds with HIS TESTIMONY [Do not refuse Him [My Son ] Who speaks from Heaven ... no more sacrificing of innocent blood it is finished
Death would not reign in heaven any longer , but the earth got a double portion of the curse
This is why the earth helped the WOMAN and swallowed up the dragons flood of lies
the old heavens being the tower of Babel [where she sat as the QUEEN OF HEAVEN ] was struck..... BY THE ROCK JESUS , when the Shepard was stuck and the sheep scattered to the ends of the earth , The 3 days that Christ was in the heart of the earth ... set it on FIRE [Luke 12;49] baptism of the cross
setting the course for THE vengeance of Gods wrath
in the heart of the earth dipped in blood .. those who kill by the same SWORD or word will also be killed in the like manner , this is what will judge us all ... the letter of the law that kills but the Spirit gives life .. we walk in the Spirit by faith not by sight , the sight of the blind guides [carnal mined ] are in the pit in a low place
not seated with CHRIST IN HEAVENLY PLACES
You see Cain being a man and of the earth has the mark of the beast on him , being carnal in mind is death and he killed and God gave him a mark being anyone who kills him will have vengeance of God on that man sevenfold ...
Now its turned around [AT THE CROSS ] , Anyone who does not love his brother and forgive and show love and mercy seven times seventy seven , does now have the wrath of God abiding on him ..
Because the Law is Spiritual and no carnal man ever kept the Fiery LAW OF GOD , ONLY THE SPIRITUAL MAN CHRIST BEING THE ONE and only
and anyone who rejects Him rejects GODS LAW that judges him , given by the HOLY SPIRIT & FIRE and those born of the Spirit by the innocent blood shed from the foundation of the world as sheep to the slaughter , BLOOD AND WATER 1 John 5:6
states, "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth." water being the first sign given , by 8 lives /souls saved by the ARK of the covenant on the earth
the second covenant being in agreement WITH the Son by the SON the ark in heaven Rev 11 The Seventh Trumpet [ this is the same walls of Jericho and the 7 trumpets blowing that the tower of babel comes down ]
...18"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth." 19And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm. for me I see this as at the CROSS , everything is centered at the Cross of Jesus Christ and the change of garments from the bloody ones to the washed white ones by the blood of the Lamb , you also must take up the same cross and follow him for our garments to be changed
Here is a beautiful chapter that sums up well of Jesus Christ come to do just this very thing AT THE CROSS , or crossing over the great gulf fixed
HE ALONE IS THE narrow PATH TO THE FATHER that leads to life , the GOD OF THE LIVING , with the new heavens and earth , as the old rolls up like a garment [ that old bloody garment ] scroll
Psalm 79 English Standard Version (ESV)
How Long, O Lord?
A Psalm of Asaph.
79 O God, the nations have come into your inheritance;
they have defiled your holy temple;
they have laid Jerusalem in ruins.
2 They have given the bodies of your servants
to the birds of the heavens for food,
the flesh of your faithful to the beasts of the earth.
3 They have poured out their blood like water
all around Jerusalem,
and there was no one to bury them.
4 We have become a taunt to our neighbors,
mocked and derided by those around us.
5 How long, O Lord? Will you be angry forever?
Will your jealousy burn like fire?
6 Pour out your anger on the nations
that do not know you,
and on the kingdoms
that do not call upon your name!
7 For they have devoured Jacob
and laid waste his habitation.
8 Do not remember against us our former iniquities;
let your compassion come speedily to meet us,
for we are brought very low.
9 Help us, O God of our salvation,
for the glory of your name;
deliver us, and (W)atone for our sins,
for your name's sake!
10 Why should the nations say,
"Where is their God?"
Let the avenging of the outpoured blood of your servants
be known among the nations before our eyes!
11 Let the groans of the prisoners come before you;
according to your great power, preserve those doomed to die!
12 Return sevenfold into the lap of our neighbors
the taunts with which they have taunted you, O Lord!
13 But we your people, the sheep of your pasture,
will give thanks to you forever;
from generation to generation we will recount your praise.
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on January 26, 2011, 04:06:33 PM
Quote
How do we know those last 2 definitions don't apply?
I assume that all language is related to Hebrew in one way or the other. The original consonants have a metaphoric meaning embedded in our DNA. Yeah, I know I am crazy.
At Babel, the consonants got scrambled, and the secondary metaphor of words got scrambled, but with enough familiarity with Hebrew and another language you can get a sense of how the metaphor was scrambled. (DG is commanded to chase, dog and fish [dag in Hebrew] have a similar behavior.)
Greek and Hebrew are so closely related that Greeks and Hebrews could talk with each other.
The word βασανίζω from βάσανος has the Hebrew parallel of בסנ 'basan' which is 'in the thorns'.
The thorns represent the 'cares of the world'. That phrase has two sides; the things which cause you to care, and the care you give them.
Isaac's ram, representing Christ, was stuck in the thorns because Christ so loved the world.. he cared for the world.
The same thorns made up his crown as symbol that every thought was toward his love for his bride.
The thorns are the cause of our tribulation. Christ did not have to have tribulation if he did not love the world. And we would not go through fiery trials, smelting, and tribulation if it was not for our cares of the world (in our case the things of the world). So it is not a torture, but a purification.
Quote from: jabcat on February 09, 2011, 05:49:02 AM
Quote from: marie glen on February 09, 2011, 05:38:44 AM
after all that, who is not going to "believe"?
Answer - no one. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord. Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Amen. God is good. Even better than we know.
AMEN!
God is good - far, far better than we know or can conceive.
Amen! If et were true.. it is just plain crazy to think we flawed humans could conceive of a better plan of salvation and end result than our Father in heaven has designed and has full control of.. :girlheart: