Judging

[jabcat]

"Judge not".  Often heard, all over the place.  I see it in comment sections of news articles, usually from seeming unbelievers "chastising" Christians for taking a stand on a moral and/or spiritual issue.

I have some ideas, but I don't fully understand all the issues involved with scriptural judging, and usually feel around trying to find the right balance.  I'll mention a few various references, and then suggest that not just any one of these statements can be used on which to base a complete approach.  I think there must be several different aspects to it, that fit several specific, distinct situations.  Context, reconciling of the whole, and all that. 

Judge not, in one place and situation.      Judge rightly in others.

Don't judge the world.       Judge inside the "church".

Jesus didn't come to judge.        Jesus condemned the practices of the religious leaders and took a whip to the money changers.

Be kind and patient with each other.        Put the unrepentant sinner out of your midst.

The same way you judge, you'll be judged.         If someone has sinned, go to him and confront/correct him.  Next time take someone with you.  After that, "treat them as a pagan or tax collector".

So, do you think it's one size fits all, or do you see where certain references and approaches apply to varying situations and circumstances?  Maybe also has to do with even the definition/meaning of 'judge'?  Might it have different connotations in different situations?  For instance, discernment and knowing right and wrong vs. condemning?  Thoughts?

[sheila]

1 Cor 2;15..the spiritual man judges all things but is himself not judged.

   this is the judgement of God...God bound up all men in disobedience in order to have mercy on all.

   Let God be true and every man a liar,as it is written;  So that you may be proved right when you speak,and prevail when you judge.


   But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say?


  Roman 3;9  what shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that jews and gentiles alike are

  all under sin.

   Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law;rather,through the law we become conscience of sin.

[rosered]

Good question James ,
   All  righteous judgement should be by the standard    Jesus Christ  set  , by example .  just my own observations .

I know that    Jesus peace is a  big part of  that . in the world you will not have  this same peace    that Jesus gives , but  the opposite   being  troubles .
He told them   when entering a house ," say peace  to your house"   or if they do not receive  you  or your witness ,  let your Peace return to you .

  Also   have  peace with all men as much as be in you ..
  Blessed are the peacemakers they shall be called the children of God .

I believe this is an exercise in discerning spirits and allowing the Holy Spirit   to bear witness in your own conscience   that you are pleasing God 

Not yourself nor   others so much as pleasing God . 
   Its all  about "keeping your conscience " clean   .

I  believe this is  is the necessary part of the  "waiting on the Lord  " and patience of the saints    , when its swept clean  , we are not to go out looking  for   "rest"    we will not find it , but only bring back  7 more spirits wicked/ unrest  than the original   spirit  in you  and  the last state of the man will be worse off than the   original   condition 

I remember the    ones making   the proselyte   , new student  a two fold child of   Gehenna   by their  own  spirits  , I can see this as men with men in the spiritual sense ,
 
making  them all  barren of fruit   , Holy Spirit  fruits  ,  the increase of God   .

So we have the  spirits of unrest and anti Christ spirits  ,     called the children of disobedience    who are drunk  at night ,  receiving   the wrath of God on them

Rest or wrath      , it is leaning to discern the spirits   

   the Gathering in to Christ   Spirit  of ONENESS   or the scattering  abroad    spirits of many .


Spirits of just men made perfect..   Here is a big clue for me  that helped also  , Gather in to Jesus Christ     the ONE faith ,one hope ,one  baptism , ONE SPIRIT , ONE GOD   same unity of faith   in Him   Hebrews 12

22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,


the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,

23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,


24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel....

[Tom]

I think "judge" from the Greek "krino," literally "judge," means "set right, come to a conclusion, decide," but the word is usually misinterpreted to mean "condemn." That is what I think Jesus was referring to when he told us not to "judge," and that's why he often exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leaders who tended to condemn others while they were also guilty.

[rosered]

Yep !  judge , right   Tom   we are ALL   guilty before God..   It seems

he NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number:   2919    Browse Lexicon
Original Word   Word Origin
krino   perhaps a primitive word
Transliterated Word   TDNT Entry
Krino   3:921,469
Phonetic Spelling   Parts of Speech
kree'-no      Verb
Definition
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose
to approve, esteem, to prefer
to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion
to determine, resolve, decree
to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute
in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law

NAS Word Usage - Total: 115
act as...judge 1, concluded 1, condemn 1, condemning 1, considered 1, decided 8, determine 1, determined 2, go to law 1, goes to law 1, judge 42, judged 25, judges 10, judging 5, judgment 1, pass judgment 1, passes judgment 1, passing judgment 1, pronounced 1, regards 2, stand trial 2, sue 1, trial 3, tried 1, try 1

[Tom]

Yeah, we're all guilty, sis. That's why we shouldn't judge/condemn others.

[rosered]

Yeah, we're all guilty, sis. That's why we shouldn't judge/condemn others.

  If this is how we are  standing trial   though the court system of the heavenly courts  and messengers   , as Jesus is in His seat   now with the FATHER  ,
judging    in righteousness     Daniel  7   this same vision of Daniel was seeing  by the Spirit of prophecy     what would come

  and I do believe this is where   Jesus Christ  went to sit with His Father in the  same  Throne as He overcome the world  and all that was in it

9"I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire.


10"A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened.

11"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire....


  a horn is a power  on the altar   , I look at this  as individually and our own beast nature   is   like our own bodies are   given over to the flame of Gods  righteous judgment

  Just as Paul said If I have not love   and give  my  Body to be burned   it will be for   nothing   ...
Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Jude 1:14
Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

Revelation 5:11
Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders.

Revelation 11:18
The nations were angry, and your wrath has come.

The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small-- and for destroying those who destroy the earth."


I believe when Jesus said it was finnished    , this work of the Cross   of Christ meant    that
  greater works will you do because I go to the Father     , 
   sitting on the right hand of God

  as overcame and sit  Father Rev 3

...20'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door,

I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.


21'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne,


as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.


22'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"

Be of good cheer little flock I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD

  this is taking up your cross   and following  Christ    , because greater is He who is in you than in the world     

I  do understand how you  may have to  die in the literal sense   for the   promises to be   fulfilled


and having the deposit of the Spirit now   as an guarantee seal  or insignia   a distinguishing mark or sign of anything


NOUN
a formal promise or assurance (typically in writing) that certain conditions will be fulfilled, especially that a product will be repaired or replaced if not of a specified quality and durability:

synonyms: warranty
VERB
provide a formal assurance or promise, especially that certain conditions shall be fulfilled relating to a product, service, or transaction

  a covenant is an agreement   of   keeping    on both parties     
not just one sided  in that sense    and Thank God for Jesus    , helping  us and  being mediator  ,,, a person who attempts to make people involved in a conflict come to an agreement; a go-between.

[jabcat]

Thanks for the replies.  Interesting issue, I believe, with different nuances depending on the sitatuation and attitude/motive, etc.  Seems to me we make judgments all the time.  It's a necessary part of living.  :Chinscratch:  So maybe the condemning aspect is key.  We can make decisions, judgments, etc. and take appropriate actions in our lives - hopefully scripturally sound and as led by the Spirit.  But only God can literally and finally condemn or justify.   :2c:    I'll think on it some more, thanks.

[Tom]

I think ya nailed it, bro.

[rosered]

  Very true in the broad sense   James we sure do
  and  I also agree with your words ,
   as it is scripture   one lawgiver and judge    who is able to save and destroy

James 4 ...11Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law;


but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.


12There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

   Jesus said the word spoken judges us  on the last day  also  John 12
Some Believe in Jesus

...47"If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him;

for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48"He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him;

the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day


. 49"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak....



  hear  My Son  Hebrews 12


25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.

If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth,

how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?


26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."

27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe

, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."

[jabcat]

So that's very interesting rosie.  I see what James said.  Yet I also see what Paul said;  I Corinthians 5:11 "But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-- not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked one from among yourselves."

What thoughts do you have on reconciling those 2 verses?  What other contexts come into play do you think that makes it all fit together?

[rosered]

   You are right James  ,


How do we  do ? I believe there is a discerning of the spirits    for sure,      but even more so discerning the BODY OF CHRIST   ,It seem the stricter   eye is on those within    the  assemblies , churches       

  but also found these very  helpful      and  they are all in agreement ..

  I do believe you dealt with   them and prayed for them and  asked them to    act peaceably   , now its on them to do their part  , not you any longer
 

2 Thess 3 14If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame. 15Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Matthew 18:15
"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.

1 Thessalonians 5:14
And we urge you, brothers and sisters, warn those who are idle and disruptive, encourage the disheartened, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

2 Thessalonians 3:13
And as for you, brothers and sisters, never tire of doing what is good.

  I do believe   we are never to compromise    for   sin    to many warnings   in the WORD of God
Children of Light
...10trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

11Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret....

Proverbs 1:10
My son, if sinful men entice you, do not give in to them.

Proverbs 28:4
Those who forsake instruction praise the wicked, but those who heed it resist them.

John 3:20
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Acts 26:18
to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Romans 13:12
The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

1 Corinthians 5:9
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--

2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?

Ephesians 5:12
It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret.

Colossians 1:12
and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light.

1 Timothy 5:20
But those elders who are sinning you are to reprove before everyone, so that the others may take warning.

1 Timothy 5:22
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.

2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
   

scary,   when taken  very  seriously   ,  is it not ?

[jabcat]

2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
 

scary,   when taken  very  seriously   ,  is it not ?

Yes!  That's what I'm talking about.  There's a LOT to it, not just a "well, we're told to not judge".  IMO, it's not something to just passively say "God will take care of it".  I believe He's let us know some pretty specific things, yet I'm afraid many of us (INCLUDING ME) don't really understand how to walk it out in every situation.  What I don't believe is, "God doesn't care, just love everyone".  No, He's made it clear He cares, and given us instructions on how to approach things and deal with them.  As usual, I'd like a really neat package of "Do This and Don't Do That In These 3 Situations for a Christian" Handbook, and I'm afraid it's not published yet.  Instead, we have to sort it out and find the truth.  Maybe this discussion will help with that.  Thanks!  More to digest.   :thumbsup:

[Tom]

I think we're supposed to speak up in the spirit of love to actually help our brothers and sisters, not condemn them, even though that's how it might be perceived by them if they're in denial, but I also think it's a good idea to humbly share our own struggles with sin to show we're not being hypocritical but going through the same type of spiritual warfare they are even though we may have different manifestations of sin. We're all dealing with sin everyday because it's in our flesh even though we're filled with the spirit of God. I agree that we're not just supposed to passively submit to it and say God loves me anyway because I think we're expected to exercise discernment and then change our ways believing God gives us the power to do so. I know from experience that the power of the spirit of God is real power that overcomes evil in your life if you just believe.

[rosered]

  :iagree:  I see it that way  as well , Tom ,,, :thumbsup:

it is a true saying       as an example   Paul confesses  His sins  openly  before   all   
  We are to confess our sins to one another      , all this  is open and  before     God and man   , nothing hidden    .  as the Light  is shinning
1Timothy
God's Grace to Paul
...14and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.


15It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.


16Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for anios  life....

[rosered]

2 John 1:11
Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work.
 

scary,   when taken  very  seriously   ,  is it not ?

Yes!  That's what I'm talking about.  There's a LOT to it, not just a "well, we're told to not judge".  IMO, it's not something to just passively say "God will take care of it".  I believe He's let us know some pretty specific things, yet I'm afraid many of us (INCLUDING ME) don't really understand how to walk it out in every situation.  What I don't believe is, "God doesn't care, just love everyone".  No, He's made it clear He cares, and given us instructions on how to approach things and deal with them.  As usual, I'd like a really neat package of "Do This and Don't Do That In These 3 Situations for a Christian" Handbook, and I'm afraid it's not published yet.  Instead, we have to sort it out and find the truth.  Maybe this discussion will help with that.  Thanks!  More to digest.   :thumbsup:

    Thanks James   ,  As   being open for more   judgments /opinions   as well  :winkgrin:   
  Thanks ..................    :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

I think we're supposed to speak up in the spirit of love to actually help our brothers and sisters, not condemn them, even though that's how it might be perceived by them if they're in denial, but I also think it's a good idea to humbly share our own struggles with sin to show we're not being hypocritical but going through the same type of spiritual warfare they are even though we may have different manifestations of sin. We're all dealing with sin everyday because it's in our flesh even though we're filled with the spirit of God. I agree that we're not just supposed to passively submit to it and say God loves me anyway because I think we're expected to exercise discernment and then change our ways believing God gives us the power to do so. I know from experience that the power of the spirit of God is real power that overcomes evil in your life if you just believe.

Hi Tom,

I agree. I was thinking :Chinscratch: maybe I shouldn't? If I know someone who is a murderer, am I suppose to look the other way and suppose God will handle it, maybe kill another person, or do I get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities? If I announce he is a murderer am I judging him or just stating the facts? Seems we sometimes get our priorities confused.  :doh: We as a society have gotten so passive on things, I guess because there is so much goings on in the world and it is seen so much on tv that we have become immune to it all.

CHB 

[Seth]

"Judge not".  Often heard, all over the place.  I see it in comment sections of news articles, usually from seeming unbelievers "chastising" Christians for taking a stand on a moral and/or spiritual issue.

I have some ideas, but I don't fully understand all the issues involved with scriptural judging, and usually feel around trying to find the right balance.  I'll mention a few various references, and then suggest that not just any one of these statements can be used on which to base a complete approach.  I think there must be several different aspects to it, that fit several specific, distinct situations.  Context, reconciling of the whole, and all that. 

Judge not, in one place and situation.      Judge rightly in others.

Don't judge the world.       Judge inside the "church".

Jesus didn't come to judge.        Jesus condemned the practices of the religious leaders and took a whip to the money changers.

Be kind and patient with each other.        Put the unrepentant sinner out of your midst.

The same way you judge, you'll be judged.         If someone has sinned, go to him and confront/correct him.  Next time take someone with you.  After that, "treat them as a pagan or tax collector".

So, do you think it's one size fits all, or do you see where certain references and approaches apply to varying situations and circumstances?  Maybe also has to do with even the definition/meaning of 'judge'?  Might it have different connotations in different situations?  For instance, discernment and knowing right and wrong vs. condemning?  Thoughts?

One reason I think for the confusion is how that the English language has so many more words and therefore more ability to use words that add connotation. the Hebrew and Greek have less words so it becomes more important to look at context surrounding "judge" to determine what KIND of judging he is talking about. In some places he says he does not judge, and in other places he judges. It's the KIND of judging that makes the difference.

[Seth]

BTW, there is a fuller reasoning to consider in the judge not scripture:

Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

See, Jesus is not saying we shouldn't remove motes from our brother's eyes (we do that with UR teaching alone, dispelling the false doctrines of hell). We just shouldn't do it if we have a bigger problem than our brother.

[Tom]

Hmmm...do you think, if that person is working for the government and doing it for his country, he is still a murderer? Do you think there is a difference between killing and murdering? Do you think killing is ever justified? I agree that TV and the media in general desensitize people to killing and all kinds of things. I'm wondering how you would "know someone who is a murderer" unless you actually witnessed the crime in which case you would have a legal responsibility to report the crime and not just "look the other way" or you may end up getting charged with obstructing justice or even being an accessory after the fact, but I'd say you better be prepared to deal with the consequences either way because, if that person is a gangbanger, you may have the whole gang coming after you in which case you better be armed and very alert. You may even want to relocate for the safety of your family. But it could just be a case of a crime of passion in which that person killed a spouse or significant other in a fit of rage in which case that person may easily accept that what he did was wrong and be genuinely sorry for what he did or not. Or it could even be a case of somebody that was out of his mind due to mental illness or intoxication and doesn't even remember what he did. It might even have been a case of self-defense that was misinterpreted as murder because you didn't witness what happened right before the killing. If it was a case of a government agent performing his job, you may be in jeopardy of being killed yourself by the same government for being a witness even if you don't say anything. I think there's some confusion about the two words "kill" and "murder," and I think it's got a lot to do with mistranslation of scripture. I remember hearing "Thou shalt not kill" as one of the Ten Commandments when I was a Catholic kid, and then I wondered why every country has a military that does exactly that. I think there is a difference between "kill" and "murder," and those words need to be understood correctly. I think we can even personally witness something and perceive something that is completely different from what actually happened. I think you could witness a killing and think it's a murder, but it's not. You may not know that because you don't know all the facts about the circumstances. Assuming you do actually know it's a murder, I think you're legally responsible to report it, and then you could, out of compassion, minister to that person in jail or prison if you're led to do so either in person or by some sort of communication sharing scripture with that person about how Paul called himself the worst of sinners because he used to kill believers but had his life radically changed when he saw the light to the point that he became the apostle to the nations. Who knows? You might be the channel through which God causes that person to become a minister to his fellow prisoners. I think we're supposed to abide by the laws of society out of conscience and to provide a good example to the world and fellow believers, but we're also supposed to consider those who may be criminals to simply be lost souls who need compassion and a knowledge of the grace of God. God uses those who are considered by society to be not so great to be his most effective means through which to propagate the evangel because it is by doing so that it is obvious that it is not the power of the flesh or the wisdom of the world that convinces those lost souls to find their way to God but the power of God, the love of God, that draws them. The legal system of mankind is corrupt. Some people who have ruined the lives of many people never receive any retribution, and others who are completely innocent spend a lot of time locked up. It's called the justice system, but that's a misnomer. Only God is just, but even God has told certain people to kill some other people. God himself has killed many people. I think we have to try to see everything in context. For one thing only God has the power to bring any of those dead people back to life, and I think God will eventually bring all dead people back to life to never die again but at two different times. So I guess, because God has the power to give life and even restore life to those who have died, God is just choosing to put certain people in the game and take them out of the game only to put them back in the game at will whenever he wants to for his own reasons, and therefore it doesn't seem like it's such a bad thing even though there will be grieving families involved because death always brings sorrow. But, just like with us not being qualified to judge/condemn because we're all guilty, we don't have the power to create life or restore life to those we might kill. So I guess that's why we shouldn't kill anybody unless we're compelled to do so for various reasons such as being in the military or to defend our family or ourselves, but murder is a different story because it is unlawful killing. So I think we have a legal responsibility, but we're also compelled spiritually to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet. I can even see how we're not supposed to hate Satan because he's just doing his job, but we shouldn't let him deceive us either because we're supposed to know what's up if we're familiar with the word of God. All of us everyday probably witness other people sinning just as we may be aware of our sin and struggle with it. I don't think it's practical to think that we can call everybody out every time we see somebody missing the mark just as it isn't possible to catch ourselves every time before we sin so we don't do it because Satan's deception is very effective. So what are we supposed to do? I think God gave us all a conscience to know what is right and wrong even though some people have had theirs cauterized by their life experiences. Do you think the Boston bomber should have been sentenced to death? Some people think he should have, and some think he should get locked up for the rest of his life. Back in the day, I don't think there would have been any doubt about it. Does he deserve to live on the taxpayer dime for the rest of his life simply out of compassion for him even though he showed no compassion for the children and adults he murdered and maimed? If he should die, where should society draw the line at executing people taking into consideration that many innocent people have been and are convicted, and some have been even been executed unjustly. It seems the Boston bomber case has sufficient evidence to rationalize such a decision, but much of the time the so called justice system actually operates on insufficient evidence of dubious quality. I've read some information in the news lately about how the FBI has admitted that much of its evidence was based on false conclusions of people that were supposed to be qualified scientists. I have seen the corrupt side of the so called justice system up close and personal myself. I think people, in the USA at least, get only as much justice as they can afford. I understand what you're saying in your post, and I'm sorry to have gotten carried away with my response. Sometimes I get on a roll and get to ramblin, but I guess the bottom line is no, I don't think we're just supposed to "look the other way" if we witness what we think is a murder. And no, you're not "judging him," in the sense that you're self-righteously condemning him, just by "stating the facts" when compelled to do so by the authorities. I think, by doing so, you actually did "get involved and try to help this person as well as turn him in to the authorities" and help society by doing so. The accused murderer will have a lot of time to think about what he did if he's locked up, and he won't be able to murder anybody else on the street while he's locked  up even though he may do so inside or even be a victim of murder himself. I think either way you should have compassion for the person who got murdered when you witnessed it but the murderer too, which may seem strange, but he needs to be saved from his sin just like we all do. I hope I haven't made your dilemma more confusing. Scripture says we're supposed to be subject to the authorities, but we're also supposed to have compassion on all sinners just like Jesus did. So I think that means that we should simply do what is required by the laws of the society in which we live, but also realize we are called to love all our brothers and sisters on the planet even though some of them might make it kind of hard to do so.

[rosered]

This become to long ... :sigh:

  Paul confessed his murderous ways     That was kind of my point .

I do not think   that we will come to the LIGHT   and  expose our nakedness , until we do

  Under the old law    it does expose sin   and shame and nakedness , putting those things to death   in us , so we can be set free    from guilt  and a past .

If one   does  not repent , change the ways of   thinking   , they are still held   under the bondage of sin  and death

What good is it to say ,    I was like that too   and say its ok    ,   it is not ok ,,,,

    Dont you even realize you we dead to God    as long as you lived that way ?
The irony of Pauls confession was   he really believed in his heart he was  doing  Gods service   ..

  In a  strange way ,   he was a messenger of wrath      and angel of death ...

But when Jesus got a hold of Him   and I do believe it was a spiritual experience      he encountered  not a physical one     , because no man saw  it


And always will wonder if this was Paul's  explaining this in the third person    , as   seeing the third heaven where Christ was      and the  thief on the cross    was  going   after   death   ''example '' ,  as the old one  become silent  and  mouth stopped and become guilty before God  and was   the man of sin  who   Paul would have to silence within himself     when it would rise up   ,,,

the   new man in Christ    spoke , when he said it was   unlawful things spoken     , those things according to the LAW   ,  were done away with in Christ

Because   he was not   following according to the written on stone hearts any longer , but     hearing what the Spirit was saying     for the first time 


Making the old  prophecy  in ISAIAH true    ,   I will cause those  whom say they see,,,    be  made blind and cause the blind to see     ,,,    Paul had come into the LIGHT    OF CHRIST   exposing     his shame and nakedness .. error    He was blinded for a time and needed help    and God sent a man to lead him for a time
who at first feared Paul /Saul , but feared  GOD more         , the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom     , Saul / Paul was bearing  his cross from that point on


I believe everything Jesus ever SPOKE has major  meaning         when He says     you fill up the measure of your fathers  guilt  Matt 23 ...31"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32"Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of   Gehenna ?


  we are all measured  !!   as you judge so shall you be judged  , by this same measure    ,  of who we are     what is   still    in operation     ,  the old man of sin  or  the new  man in Christ   ?       who has been set free from   that wicked one

If was were all that honest   and could confess ,    we are guilty of all  ,  Just as Jesus said   , if you break one at any point your guilty of all   , because this is the division and dividing point       in every last one of us ...
When Paul said he was alive once without the law     ,  he was  alive to the world      and in the world and of the world   

  What is the main     and key       proof though   out the new testament       , it is overcoming the world    though faith in Jesus Christ

  none overcome the world   in the times past   , except the faithful few spoken of in Hebrews 11    and knew this world was not their   home     

   They knew HEAVEN WAS        , NO  body has ever ascended into heaven      , but  the ONE  who come down from Heaven     , and Who was  hid in Jesus christ  from the beginning  and  the Lamb  slain from the foundation of the world         ?   THOSE THAT ARE HIS   and always was  of HIM     and those whom would   spring forth new life    out of those   sent   into   all the ends of the earth

And  this gives us the true meaning of     gathering into Christ       Paul really  expounds on    what was scattered  in the world is  being  gathered up    and  going back Home   and the tares      have been measured       and judged are being  gathered and burned   by angels and men   according to the age  / season , generation /harvest        in the here and now    as  little lakes of fire     , not an ocean of fire   , but lakes     being the small bundles   

  Paul even mentions if I give my body to be burned and have not love it is for nothing ... He was speaking of Jesus words here I do believe     

     John 15 5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.


6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and men  gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. 7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you

Can you see How the Word abides in us and we are Judged by the Word  abiding in us ?

  this is is how we crucify Jesus Christ afresh and put Him to an open shame      the WORD OF GOD in you  judges you   all the time

worthy or unworthy      ,   you will be spewed out of His mouth      a rejected branch    withering and dying without the water of Life   abiding in you

  nothing living can live without water         here on earth       , every  animal every creeping thing  , every   tree  every   herb , everything living  and has life is because of the Water   of the WORD       Jesus speaks of being born again of  water and spirit      those  in John 3 are how we LIVE        , the wind blows  on who ever and   rests on him and the water of the WORD and the   Spirit of truth are How we LIVE TO GOD  and worship Him   ,  IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH         

I will continue to believe the two witnesses      are    the two olive trees    and  2  lampstands[bodies  as  assemblies ]  the SPIRIT OF TRUTH  and the WORD OF GOD    given to every man   born again  under heaven   planted   by God Himself   as Having the Spirit of prophecy  and testimony of Jesus Christ in them   ,
  the old and the new  covenants     and Jesus Christ was in the midst of them always

Psalms
any tree by Father has not planted   ,
...12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?" 13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted. 14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."


I am a young olive tree planted   by the water    But as for me, I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.2But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. 3He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, Which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; And in whatever he does, he prospers. 4The wicked are not so, But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.


Rev 11     this measuring rod     is   what is on  the inside  HIS   TEMPLE AND ALTAR   and what is left   on the outside to be tramples underfoot        the 2nd woe   to those who dwell in the earth    ..


   

[dajomaco]

Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.

Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.

We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.

[dajomaco]

Without the Holy spirit revealing to us that Ananias and Sapphira were lying.
We would of thought they were pillars of the church giving away their property to the Lord .

We probably would notice those you gave nothing and judge accordingly.

[rosered]

Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.

Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.

We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.

  :icon_flower:  Yes it is the  Word of God abiding in you and the Holy Spirit is also bearing witness the TRUTH    Daj !    :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property. 2 However, he kept back part of the proceeds with his wife's knowledge, and brought a portion of it and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the proceeds from the field? 4 Wasn't it yours while you possessed it? And after it was sold, wasn't it at your disposal? Why is it that you planned this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God!" 5 When he heard these words, Ananias dropped dead, and a great fear came on all who heard. 6 The young men got up, wrapped his body, carried him out, and buried him.
7 There was an interval of about three hours; then his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 "Tell me," Peter asked her, "did you sell the field for this price?"
"Yes," she said, "for that price."
9 Then Peter said to her, "Why did you agree to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look! The feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out!"
10 Instantly she dropped dead at his feet. When the young men came in, they found her dead, carried her out, and buried her beside her husband. 11 Then great fear came on the whole church and on all who heard these things.

Peter did not judge these two, they were judged by the Holy Spirit.

We are programed to judge with our carnal minds, on a daily basis, right from wrong.
It is hard to ignore these judgments and wait upon the spirit of God.

I would consider what Peter said to them a judgment. It was obviously given by the Holy Spirit for him to say, but it did come out of his mouth.