Especially=

[Peacetroll]

 Why would one say all men,meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe?
If you are saving everyone how would you especially save some of them?

It makes perfect sence if the real inference of the word used by Paul is specifically,or that is.God shall have all men to be saved,that is,those that believe,or God will have all men to be saved,specifically,those that believe.

Why were all those people willing to be martyered for Jesus sake, and spread out throughout the world preaching the gospel if all men, meaning every human being who ever lived was going to be saved?Why die for your faith if it doesn't matter if you believe or not? :dontknow:Why worry about it, or suffer for it if it will make no difference in the end?

If you are the Lord's,you are in the world, in the darkness, but not of the darkness.

Luke 16:8
And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
 
Jesus makes a difference in men.

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Who is the phrase "the world" used as a symbol for?

The darkness,the shadow of death,the devil.

John 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

How then can you say all men litterally shall be saved?That belief in the Son of God,Man which is in heaven, has no meaning in the end?

[laren]

Why would one say all men,meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe?

The especially were those given eyes to see, ears to hear; to come out of "self righteousness/sacrifice" to "mercy". 
Save by grace.  Used for a purpose, to demonstrate that God's love is not dependent upon "man's efforts". 

Through this especially salvation, those who were stuck in "self righteousness", saw there house come down quickly and completely in complete destruction of self works.  The old was destroyed, and in with the new.  This is their salvation.  Standing completely naked before LOVE.


Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.

Rom 9:18  So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

Rom 11:7  What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

Rom 11:10  Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, And bow thou down their back always.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if their fall, is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them is the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16  And if the firstfruit is holy (the especially saved), so is the lump (those hardened): and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

Rom 11:26  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28  As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their disobedience,

Rom 11:32  For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
 


In my opinion, this was all played out (past tense), and through this we can see that as Seeker says, God is LOVE, always has been and always will be. 

Approaching scriptures from the view of LOVE, changes everything. 

As my friend Amie has as her favorite quote,

"When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change"




Rom 11:28  As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.

[JillieRose]

Hello Peacetroll!

Ok...two different threads of argument here.

One is the 'when does all mean all, and when does it mean all kinds?' question, and the other is the meaning of malista.

I'm going to try to apply the common sense test to the first problem.

"The Saviour of all men, [especially] those who believe"
"The Saviour of all kinds of men, [especially] those who believe"

Hmm. I'm not a UR person (not yet, anyway) by any means, but...I think that either way, as regards English linguistics, it's a bit stuck with all. Because all kinds/especially doesn't change the meaning compared to all/especially.

However, if proposition 2 is true and malista does not mean especially, then you can make a case for all kinds of men, specifically those who believe.

Malista: Strong's number 3122
"neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very)"
12 uses in the American Standard version.
Definition:  especially, chiefly, most of all, above all.

"3122. malista mal'-is-tah  neuter plural of the superlative of an apparently primary adverb mala (very); (adverbially) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly:--chiefly, most of all, (e-)specially.
3123. mallon mal'-lon neuter of the comparative of the same as 3122; (adverbially) more (in a greater degree)) or rather:--+ better, X far, (the) more (and more), (so) much (the more), rather."

Where did you find the article/explanation/whatever which said that it sometimes meant 'that is' or 'specifically'? Your translation doodah (the link in your second post) brings up a word which is...well, it's not malista, when I put in 'specifically'. Also, I cannot find any instance of 'specifically' being a translation for any word in the New Testament, having tried six different translations. Not just in the verse in question, I mean anywhere.

Could you help me out, please?

[Peacetroll]

 You MUST have common sense.What is the reason for faith if it means nothing in the end of things?Is John a liar?

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[SeekerSA]

explain this

Joh 12:47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

[Craig]

You MUST have common sense.What is the reason for faith if it means nothing in the end of things?Is John a liar?

John 3:17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

You should have common sense. We are not stupid people as you have us out to be. So stop thinking yourself all knowing, and begin to discuss rationally and logically, keeping out all fallacy. Nobody here called John a liar, and it seems the only ones here with common sense are the ones actually taking to task the words meanings and their context, all but you it seems.

[Peacetroll]

 If you disregard the words of Jesus,and John and adhere only to what you think Paul said, how can you be right?
You should have posted what Jesus said with it's accompanying scriptures,which qualify that verse.Talk about cherry picking.

John 12:47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

We are reconciled to God through the obedience of Jesus Christ to the death for our sakes who are blessed to hear and believe.It is our God given faith in Him that saves us.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luke 18:42
And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

If you reject and despise Jesus, you reject and despise God.

Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

Will God forcefully save those from the second death,or is that event the way all things that offend are permanetly removed?

[Apocatastasis]

This is a test.  Just seeing if my post appears.

[Craig]

.....

This has nothing to do with Malista... once again. Nobody here but you are cherry picking Scriptures. As I have said before, not every place in Scripture where it talks about Eternal Life, Salvation, etc. is it talking about the same salvation. There is salvation which comes in believing, they walk by the light and do not take the road to destruction, and there is a salvation that comes through Jesus Christ, which is not dependant upon our belief, but the work of the cross and the resurrection of the dead.

You are using circular reasoning and now hasty generalizations to try to prove (which you still have not demonstrated) that MALISTA means something it so far has been established by us and many scholars, does not.

[Peacetroll]

I was answering seeker's question.

[Craig]

I was answering seeker's question.

Okay, changed my post.

[laren]

The especially were chosen to demonstrate that "man's works" serve no purpose in relationship with the Father.  

Those not chosen, were to go through the fire of destruction.  Destruction of the old, the old covenant way of thinking.  

Mat 3:10  And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

This destruction is their salvation.  God's way of bringing in mercy upon all.  


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost (imo, the chosen/elect, the especially), and with fire (those stuck in self righteousness/old covenant mode of life):


1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Rom 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Rom 11:13  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

Rom 11:20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Rom 11:24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27  For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (imo, as through fire/destruction)

Rom 11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 11:30  For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


Jesus came to disqualify those stuck in old covenant mode of thinking.  Thus his focus was on destruction of works in fire for those stuck in that mode.  And blessings to the meek (matthew 5-7)

As the mystery unfolds, through an elect; the "self righteous" have their works burned and saved through destruction.  


LOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.  

[SeekerSA]

LOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.

I disagree. LOVE is the ONLY paradigm to interpret scripture.  :bigGrin:

Blessings

[laren]

LOVE is the paradigm imo to interpret scripture.

I disagree. LOVE is the ONLY paradigm to interpret scripture.  :bigGrin:

Blessings

:bgdance: :bgdance: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :boydance: :Egyptdance2:

[FineLinen]

1 Tim. 4:10

We accept both the strict discipline of training and the stern struggle of the contest, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, and above all the Saviour of those who believe. -Wm. Barclay N.T.-

"And above all"= especially= malista=

Chiefly.

Most of all/ above all.

Especially.

To a distinctly greater extent or degree than is common.

Encarta World Dictionary

1. Exceptionally: to an unusual or exceptional degree.

2. Particularly: Used to single out one among a range.

3. Chiefly

4. Expressly: for a particular or specific purpose.

American Heritage Dictionary Of The English Language

To a degree or extent deserving special emphasis --particulary.

Infoplease Dictionary

Particulary/ exceptionally/ markedly.

Miriam Webster

For a particular purpose.

To an extent or degree deserving special emphasis.

In an especial manner; chiefly; particularily; in an uncommon degree.

Cambridge Dictionary Of American English

Used to emphasize the importance of one thing among others of its type or to the point of one thing among others-- particularly

Please note:

Malista does not mean monon or monos!

Monon= exclusively/ only

Malista= especially/ chiefly/ most of all/ above all.

"He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins only/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude."

[FineLinen]

Why would one say all men, meaning every human being on the planet would be saved and then say especially those that believe? If you are saving everyone how would you especially save some of them?

This is your mission, Troll, should you be willing to accept it.....Define from the English Dictionaries what especially means. Does especially mean only or exclusively? And, does the Koine Greek malista mean only or exclusively?

"He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins only/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.

Plan b minus=


He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and for our sins ONLY, and not for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.

[70sevens]

Saved man is saved,
Unsaved man is unsaved.
Unsaved man is not saved.
I guess this is common sense.

[1Ti 4:10]
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

"The living God is the Savior of all men."
Yes, how true!
But this statement itself will not save us, nor anybody.
Only when he is saved, he is saved.
Then he become a special person that believe, as Paul said.

So don't have to shout with joy over the statement,
saying "loving, merciful God and triumphant Jesus."
That is pie-in-the-sky ...
until the reader himself is saved.

Stream is this :
Paul and Timothy labor and suffer reproach
to make the statement of "the living God is the Savior of all men"
real to men that they meet.

[jabcat]

Thank you Fine Linen, excellent post, and helpful.

[Reverend G]

Yes, thank you.  Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

[Craig]

Yes, thank you.  Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

You got it.

[JillieRose]

 

Will God forcefully save those from the second death,or is that event the way all things that offend are permanently removed?

*shrugs* Idunno. Maybe He saves them through the second death. I don't claim to know what God does at any one time, I'm just glad He does it. I think the point people are making is that you can't just take one Scripture and prove anything you like from it.

For example, if you read Romans you can find half a dozen overtly UR scriptures, and then maybe a half a dozen ET/annihilation/wrath Scriptures. If you take them all together you can get a better picture: pick and choose verses and you're in trouble. And you get confused. Well, I do anyway.

For example: 1 Cor 15:whatever it was...well, the context of that is a letter written to Christians about their building on God's foundation. That even if their work is like straw instead of gold, they shall be saved, but as through fire.

I'm not saying there's no UR support in the Bible. I'm just saying that you must look at the context and see to whom the writer is speaking.

This one (1 Tim 4:10) seems pretty UR to me. The only exception I can see is if being the Saviour of all and all being saved are different things. And I haven't seen any evidence for that. (That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, though.)

[FineLinen]

Why do people quote this as meaning "only".  It doesn't mean it in common usage today.  If I said I liked ice cream, especially chocolate, would it mean I only like chocolate ice cream?  Redefining the word to serve one's purposes I guess.

Plan A=

"We trust in the living God who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who trust in Him. These things command and teach."

Plan b minus=

We trust in the living God who is the potential Saviour of some of mankind, and only those who trust in Him. These things command and teach.

[Peacetroll]

Moved it forward.

[SeekerSA]

Eric

Why do you not use the quote feature?  It is not difficult.  Talking to you is like talking to the voice behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.  How it works is in the Forum help and in the help button.

[Peacetroll]

when i use scripture, I figure you all know its from the bible.

Nothing else to quote in the last post.  I hope your unrelated injection does not inhibit others from reading my last post and injecting thoughts and opinions regarding the subject matter.

No offense.  Just kinda rude where I come from to divert with off-the-subject posts on a thread.  But hey, I'm just a backward cherry picker so why give me any courtesy??