punishment everlasting

marie glen · May 05, 2015, 04:43:36 PM

hi!

There's a sense in which I believe punishment is everlasting! :faint:

The proverb says "train up a child". And we are all God's children. As a parent myself, the goal in the training of my own children was for them to be able to stand on their feet and make good choices and decisions in their life. There was a place for punishment - no t.v., no games, or whatnot, but the end goal was to produce a person who could rationalize concerning good, and not so good choices.

The ability to know where things lead. What will be the results and consequences from this choice, this action, or that action? As a parent, it was not ever my intention to produce a child who would forever be dependant upon me to make the right choices for them. To forever have to punish and reward was not the end I ever had in sight. I wanted to raise up children who would know and understand for themselves, right from wrong (good from evil).

As a child of God, I believe experience is a best teacher. The looking back upon the burnt out ashes of life lived apart from God is a forever lesson. The smoke of our crashing and burning will rise up for ever and ever..
:smile: :2c:

rosered · May 05, 2015, 05:45:54 PM

Well this is all well and good Marie
but I believe that having earthly children can only obey the laws of the land .

It is written that no earthly children/being could ever keep the law of God

Because it is a spiritual law and goes against the very nature of being flesh and blood .

I know now , the seed is ''Christ'' and only when its planted in the heart/ mind of the one dressed and seasoned and ready to take root , By the will /desire of God to make it grow in truth and grace

our perfect example is Jesus Christ when the child grew strong , and Paul even as a child did the childish things and when he become a man , put away the childish things

there are 3 groups that the 1 Johns speaks of that are Spiritual natured and are babes and young men and fathers

Showing us the spiritual maturity , just as the human nature shows us ,
If a man/ or spirit is set for destruction his whole life and ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of Truth

than it is him who suffers the loss , being lawless in the sense of LOVE never grew within, not the Christ seed , but died within .. like an aborted fetus does in the natural .

I always think of Daniel 12 as the very example set for the coming of Christ and His seed/ WORD and Holy Spirit conception ,,, He openly showed us , How its done in the Spiritual , when he died HE set the Covenant and testator under law
a person who has made a will or given a legacy. in place to inherit '' all things'' gifts of the Holy Spriit , according to the promise that are His to give ,, so many could live in the Spirit & truth now , and not have to wait till they were literally dead and no longer flesh and blood that never inherits spiritual things

This very purpose, proves to me that, Salvation is now !! and nearer than when we first believed ...
and many whom would die in the natural will never die in the Spirit & life though Jesus Christ ..

This is what the Cross of Jesus Christ means to me , when He said it is finished , it meant death would no longer hold those in Christ any longer

Heaven is a first estate or ''state of being '' existence , it is HOME and returning HOME with and in HIM . for those born of the SPIRIT & TRUTH

For me some are actually experiencing this now and their mortal bodies are just that ,'' dust of the earth '' that is no profit to the Kingdom of God , never was and never will be and its just a formality [rule God made by eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ] we die the day we eat it , being born dead to God in that sense, but alive to the world , not the true and most important part of all ....

marie glen · May 05, 2015, 07:27:21 PM

I think our experience of this world, and human history, is an ever lasting lesson.. Especially if we review it all - that is world and human history - upon a great day of judgment..

so whereas, mainstream christianity (and churchianity) believes in "ever lasting punishment", I believe the effects of punishment (which I think of as consequences and also as remorse and regret) - i think the effects of that will be everlasting.. the lesson He is teaching, the lesson of this life, will never be forgotten but will be like smoke rising up for ever and ever.. and that is how I read that verse (in Jude, i believe) which reads "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever" - the torment may be age lasting, but the effect I believe is for ever.. never forgotten that the potential of wandering from God is to self destruct as a tiny wisp of smoke..

whether we go to the Lord at our death, or at resurrection, I don't think really matters.. and it will likely not be cleared up as to which is more accurate any time very soon :laughing7:
To me, differing views just keeps things interesting! :smile: Thank you sister dear!

Tom · May 05, 2015, 07:40:17 PM

"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

rosered · May 05, 2015, 08:14:39 PM

Quote from: marie glen on May 05, 2015, 07:27:21 PM
I think our experience of this world, and human history, is an ever lasting lesson.. Especially if we review it all - that is world and human history - upon a great day of judgment..

so whereas, mainstream christianity (and churchianity) believes in "ever lasting punishment", I believe the effects of punishment (which I think of as consequences and also as remorse and regret) - i think the effects of that will be everlasting.. the lesson He is teaching, the lesson of this life, will never be forgotten but will be like smoke rising up for ever and ever.. and that is how I read that verse (in Jude, i believe) which reads "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever" - the torment may be age lasting, but the effect I believe is for ever.. never forgotten that the potential of wandering from God is to self destruct as a tiny wisp of smoke..

whether we go to the Lord at our death, or at resurrection, I don't think really matters.. and it will likely not be cleared up as to which is more accurate any time very soon :laughing7:
To me, differing views just keeps things interesting! :smile: Thank you sister dear!

You may have a ''insight there Marie'' , about the ones whom are already rising and seeing for themselves , just what the earth is a smoking torment rising of itself!! I agree that when Jesus had the baptism to be baptized with in Luke 12 ; 49 , was a huge clue , that He come to send fire upon the earth and how stressed he was till it be accomplished !! Being the cross and Judgment had come upon death to be abolished and eradicated (of a tree or plant) depicted with the roots exposed. that tree of knowledge of good and evil , so the Tree of Life could be eaten as it was before sin entered the scene

I can certainly see this as the two edged SWORD / WORD OF GOD /HOLY SPIRIT witness for all the earth , cutting and separating between the judgment of the just and wicked and the earthly from the heavenly realms , as well as the Holy Spirit and fire being able to endure because He is with us .. and that being even ,,, of those whom He suffers with as transgressors of the natural law and the Spiritual Law of faith for the time appointed .

as this place becomes the burning heap or even lake of fire where satan is bound in this fire at last and forever more ..REV 20

It does say that the love will worsen as lawlessness increases MATT 24 and grace all the more ROMANS 5 But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, ... but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

For me Paul always expounded on Jesus words helping us to grasp the truth of the matters at hand

Thank you for this encouraging post and thoughts sista M by the grace of God !! :HeartThrob:
satan is here for the destruction of the flesh after all and until all flesh is done away with in Christ we can see the scriptures speaking truth

marie glen · May 05, 2015, 08:27:49 PM

Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2015, 07:40:17 PM
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)

..that's the strange thing, there are verses to support both views! :doh:

"If you believe in me you will never die" .. I think the thing which made me come down to one side or the other is when Jesus went to heal the synagogue official's(?) daughter, and He said "why do you carry on so? she is not dead but sleeps" - being believers in the way of the Old Testament priesthood and forgiveness, righteousness was reckoned to them, and they do not die but sleep..

Surely Jesus knew the girl was dead as in cessation of life and was not merely sleeping as one does during the night time.. So, to me, he was chiding them for making SUCH a fuss, since at worst it was an age lasting separation (to them, but wouldn't have been to her) and not eternal.. (Not to say we don't grieve when loved ones pass away.. But not as those who have no hope.. (unless they believe in inherent immortality, that's the theory that truly bugs me, that all are immortal, with or without the Lord! :faint: )
:smile:

marie glen · May 05, 2015, 08:49:01 PM

Quote from: rosered on May 05, 2015, 08:14:39 PM
Quote from: marie glen on May 05, 2015, 07:27:21 PM
I think our experience of this world, and human history, is an ever lasting lesson.. Especially if we review it all - that is world and human history - upon a great day of judgment..

so whereas, mainstream christianity (and churchianity) believes in "ever lasting punishment", I believe the effects of punishment (which I think of as consequences and also as remorse and regret) - i think the effects of that will be everlasting.. the lesson He is teaching, the lesson of this life, will never be forgotten but will be like smoke rising up for ever and ever.. and that is how I read that verse (in Jude, i believe) which reads "the smoke of their torment shall rise up forever and ever" - the torment may be age lasting, but the effect I believe is for ever.. never forgotten that the potential of wandering from God is to self destruct as a tiny wisp of smoke..

whether we go to the Lord at our death, or at resurrection, I don't think really matters.. and it will likely not be cleared up as to which is more accurate any time very soon :laughing7:
To me, differing views just keeps things interesting! :smile: Thank you sister dear!

You may have a "insight there Marie" , about the ones whom are already rising and seeing for themselves , just what the earth is a smoking torment rising of itself!! I agree that when Jesus had the baptism to be baptized with in Luke 12 ; 49 , was a huge clue , that He come to send fire upon the earth and how stressed he was till it be accomplished !! Being the cross and Judgment had come upon death to be abolished and eradicated (of a tree or plant) depicted with the roots exposed. that tree of knowledge of good and evil , so the Tree of Life could be eaten as it was before sin entered the scene

I can certainly see this as the two edged SWORD / WORD OF GOD /HOLY SPIRIT witness for all the earth , cutting and separating between the judgment of the just and wicked and the earthly from the heavenly realms , as well as the Holy Spirit and fire being able to endure because He is with us .. and that being even ,,, of those whom He suffers with as transgressors of the natural law and the Spiritual Law of faith for the time appointed .

as this place becomes the burning heap or even lake of fire where satan is bound in this fire at last and forever more ..REV 20

It does say that the love will worsen as lawlessness increases MATT 24 and grace all the more ROMANS 5 But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, ... but where sin abounded, grace did much more abound

For me Paul always expounded on Jesus words helping us to grasp the truth of the matters at hand

Thank you for this encouraging post and thoughts sista M by the grace of God !! :HeartThrob:
satan is here for the destruction of the flesh after all and until all flesh is done away with in Christ we can see the scriptures speaking truth

:icon_flower: And won't it be simply wonderful and glorious when the lower nature (translated flesh) is fully done away with! I think we will forever remember its lesson however.. That our own (figurative) crashing and burning, and the world's literal crashing and burning (as nations and kingdoms have before this last global, climactic one) will be in our memory forever, a lesson never fading. Especially as we compare the glories of "the lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow.." .."each one" (person) "will abide under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them".. "will beat their weapons into plows and pruning shears.." .."my people will be able to sleep in the forest.." .."with no more seas" separating the peoples.. (I know there is also spiritual meaning behind these, but the literal too, will be so awesome - "a heavens and earth wherein righteousness is to dwell" - what a comparison it will be to what the world is now with its genocides, wars, holocausts, sex slave trade, and all manner of dysfunction, desperation, and despicableness.. all of it, serving to drive home the message (engrave His law on our hearts) that He alone is King and Governor. :gsmile:

rosered · May 05, 2015, 08:56:13 PM

Some Things to Remember first of all we see the very first line in 1 Timothy 6 is speaking of those still under the yoke of bodage to the law of Moses and to never ever speak evil of this doctrine , even Paul confessed the Law was good and honorable and right ! this is teaching us to become clothed in Christ as our covering so the shame of our sins are NOT EXPOSED We are to look to Jesus Christ for our salvation and no other , nor our own selves

For me the scriptures explains in many places how the Lord Jesus Christ returns ,,, It is by the Spirit of Truth .no natural eye can see Him , flesh and blood

cannot ever know God the way the Spirit and truth can .... these are the ones the Father SEEKS to worship Him ...

I DO BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART HE IS DOING JUST THAT VERY THING NOW !

11 But you, man of God, ·run away from [flee] all those things. Instead, chase after [pursue] ·a right relationship with God [righteousness], a godly life [godliness; piety], faith, love, ·patience [perseverance; endurance], and gentleness.

12 ·Fight the good fight [or Run the good race] of faith, grabbing hold of ·the life that continues forever [eternal life]. You were called to have that life when you confessed the good confession before many witnesses [1:18].

13 ·In the sight of [In the presence of; L Before] God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, I ·give you a command [exhort/encourage/charge you]. Christ Jesus made the good confession when he stood before Pontius Pilate [Matt. 27:11–26; Mark 15:1–15; Luke 23:1–24; John 18:28—19:16].

14 ·Do what you were commanded to do [Keep/Obey the command] without ·wrong [spot; stain] or blame until our Lord Jesus Christ ·comes again [returns; appears].

15 God will ·make that happen [L reveal it] at ·the right [the appointed; his own] time. He is the blessed and only ·Ruler [Sovereign], the King of all kings and the Lord of all lords.

16 He is the only One who ·never dies [has immortality]. He lives in light ·so bright no one can go near it [unapproachable]. No one has ever seen God, or can see him. May honor and power belong to God forever. Amen.

17 Command those who are rich ·with things of this world [L in the present age] not to be ·proud [arrogant; haughty]. Tell them to hope in God, not in their uncertain riches. God richly gives us everything to enjoy.

18 Tell ·the rich people [L them] to do good, to be rich in doing good deeds, to be generous and ready to share.

19 By doing that, they will be ·saving [storing up] a treasure for themselves as a strong foundation for the future. Then they will be able to ·have [take hold of] the life that is true life.

20 Timothy, guard what God has ·trusted to [entrusted/deposited with] you. Stay away from foolish, ·useless [irreverent; godless] talk and from the ·arguments [absurdities; contradictions] of what is falsely called "knowledge."

21 By ·saying they have that "knowledge" [L claiming/professing it], some have ·missed [strayed/lost their way from] the true faith.

I do believe that we are seeing those coming to Christ the only one with immortality , yes this is true , but what of those in CHRIST ?

are they dismissed because of this one verse ? that is what Timothy was saying is that only Christ had mortality , HE IS THE FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD GET IN CHRIST !! THE MESSAGE IS HOW TO GET IN CHRIST in my humble opinion

Is not JESUS CHRIST gathering into Himself all the scattered from the time of the cross , I believe the scriptures TEACH US , this is a truth

He who does not gather with me , scatters matt12 30"He who is not with Me is against Me;

and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Gather into Christ eph 1 ...

9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him

10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him

11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,...

rosered · May 05, 2015, 08:59:55 PM

yes ..... OH YES , Marie, ! it most certainly will be a wonderful DAY OF THE LORD !! :HeartThrob:
ALL THE FULNESS DWELLS COL 2 Alive in Christ

...8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;... UNTIL GOD IS ALL IN ALL :thumbsup:

Tom · May 05, 2015, 09:17:39 PM

That "never die" stuff is King James speak for "Everyone who is living and believing in Me, should by no means be dying for the eon." (John 11:26) The King James changes the Greek "aion," literally "eon," to several different words depending on what it wants you to believe. If the same word can be "never" and "forever," that ought to be a clue that there's something funny going on. I used to be a die hard King James fan, but I haven't read it for many years, and I don't intend to read it again. You can interpret that to mean "never," "forever," or "for the eon," but I'm still not planning on reading it again because it hides the truth of the ancient manuscripts, and I don't think that's just "nit-picking," "quibbling," or "sibling squabbling." Truth is what it is, and, if you distort it, it ain't. That's how the church accomplished its deception after it failed at trying to suppress scripture by killing people with fire by burning them alive at the stake just for reading scripture. The church just perpetrated forgery in the translation of scripture after that to make it say whatever it wanted to conform to its doctrine which I don't do, and that's why I'm a happy heretic who doesn't read adulterated versions of scripture anymore. I believe the ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts were inspired by God even though they no longer exist, and all the man-made copies since then contain errors though they don't affect doctrine. I also believe all the translations from those imperfect copies are imperfect because something is always lost in translation, but I read the translation that I think is the most accurate I've seen. If I ever find a more accurate one, I'll switch to it like I've done before for the same reason. If we are accustomed to reading an inaccurate translation, we tend to think according to the terminology of that inaccurate translation, and that affects how we think about scripture and God. That's why I think it's important to try to read a translation that most accurately compares to the ancient text. That's also why I refer to the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer to compare even the King James with Young's Literal Translation which is more accurate and the Concordant Version which I think is even more accurate along with an ultra-literal translation, and the ancient text. I think it makes a difference if we use the wrong words because it changes the meaning of what we're talking about. That's why I don't think we're talking about "never die," but about not dying "for the eon" which is a big difference that is not something to just say is "nit-picking," "quibbling," or "sibling squabbling." I believe many believers have in fact died but will live again without ever dying again after that. So, if you want to believe that you will "never die," the only way I can agree with that is if you're talking about after we're all given "immortality" which I don't believe happened yet especially today because I feel more dead than alive with this "eternal" virus I have. I hope I've made myself clear without offending anybody because that's not my intention. I just try to "Have a pattern of sound words." (2 Timothy 1:13)

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rosered · May 05, 2015, 09:40:15 PM

This is fine by me to Tom ,

I am not trying to be difficult either , just sharing the hope within

I do understand your thoughts about it ,I think perhaps , maybe not :Pray:

I do believe the only difference between your thoughts and mine are you see the mortal body and cannot see a spiritual body as of yet being formed inside you
where as I do , I do believe the mortal body perishes as God has made this rule and in the old Adam spirit, it also must die , just as his own flesh goes back to the dust from which it was brought forth from and spirit goes back to God who gave it .

and His spirit/ breath /soul /life /chay is exchanged for the Christ one , in this ,'' new life '' that remains , as a new creature in Christ, that is to say belongs to Him and a part of Him and come out of Him and goes back into Him

I gather this from the scriptures the same as you have from your scriptures
'' not dying for the eon '', is that age or for a time appointed ?

Not sure what an eon is to you

The only Spirit and Life is in Christ and I believe you see this as a future thing where as I see this as a now thing , is the only difference I can tell

God bless your heart hope you feel better soon , I had a type of virus thing in Feb and than a head cold virus and than that thing lingered back again mine was vomiting and diarrhea and complete muscle aches with drawing cramps and depletion of fluids, my heart even hurt , my whole month of Feb was a time of horrible misery , I really did think it could have killed me , i really did think so
So I have compassion knowing by experience how terrible you feel and hope you get better than ever soon God willing bro :HeartThrob:

Tom · May 05, 2015, 10:01:02 PM

Thanks for the compassion, sis, even if we have different interpretations. I wasn't sick for about seven years until this last Christmas, and now I'm gettin my butt kicked again. I think my immune system just got weak from sleep deprivation. Insomnia is one of my curses.

rosered · May 05, 2015, 11:14:57 PM

Yes, it takes 8 hours to replete all the cells in the body so they say , each and every night , so like you, I am in deficit as well lol :eek:
and a lot more prone to illness at my age :winkgrin:

Tom · May 06, 2015, 12:57:44 AM

I don't remember what eight hours of sleep feels like, sis, and I'm no spring chicken either.

lastpost · May 06, 2015, 01:44:03 AM

Quote from: rosered on May 05, 2015, 09:40:15 PM

I do believe the mortal body perishes as God has made this rule and in the old Adam spirit, it also must die , just as his own flesh goes back to the dust from which it was brought forth from and spirit goes back to God who gave it .

and His spirit/ breath /soul /life /chay is exchanged for the Christ one , in this ," new life " that remains , as a new creature in Christ, that is to say belongs to Him and a part of Him and come out of Him and goes back into Him

I think spiritually Rose, you have very valid point about being spiritually dead to God or alive to God. I believe that if you are alive to God through Christ, you will always be alive in Him, and it is, in my opinion, degrading to Christ to believe otherwise, as if He is turned on and off like a light switch, after all, the Living One who is alive for ever and ever does have the keys to death and Hades.

I believe the disciples received many messages from the Spirit in various ways and gave them bodies suitable for people of that time to whom he was writing.

I personally have no doubt about life after death, that each one comes to judgement at physical death, and the wicked pass into an age-long pruning (the length of the 'age' based upon the amount of cleansing of darkness in their soul that is required). Then once cleansed, they can pass into the brighter areas of age-long life - where they can live in the Spirit. One area is not suitable for all because the spiritual body is, as it were, part of the environment, and each one continues purification unto the likeness of Christ - hence there is a need for many abiding places - and Christ continues to call to come up higher.

This is exactly, I believe, what Peter was saying when Christ went directly from the Cross in His Spirit and (typically) preached to spirits who were once evil and were now cleansed enough to hear His preaching about Divine Love, so that they could live according to God in the Spirit - i.e. they could pass into age-long life.

As I said, I have no doubt about the continuity of life, in all humility I say that it is not an issue of whether it is true or not with me - the same as the existence of Jesus or God is not an issue for Christians. Honestly and truthfully, I would not be following Christ if the dead are not raised; I would not be feeling the need to pass on the joy of knowing that there is no death for those who commit their heart souls and minds to following Christ if the dead are not raised; this is because I did not learn about Christ from man but the Spirit. These are not watery words of no substance - they are literally true.

If the dead are not raised then I expect I may well have been physically dead myself by now. But instead I am filled with the Christ Spirit who tells me that I will never see death - The Christ tells me this from within - and lo and behold, when I open the Holy Book, He is recorded as saying what I was told by the Spirit before even reading it. No doubts for me - blessed beyond measure I am for now I accept that He lives in me and I am one with Him, He instructs me as to Truth. I could write a long book about it.

I believe it actually does make a difference what someone believes happens when they die physically, and I believe He requires tried and tested soldiers to be alive and ready to serve Him. Or do His followers think that they are going to be revolving for ever around a throne in some kind of semi-conscious cloudy state - for eternity no less? I believe otherwise and have good reason to do so. Why are we implored to resist sin and overcome it to the end?

In my opinion, get ready, be prepared, do not sleep when the time comes, do not seek for absence of consciousness as there will be an effect. I hope and pray that the mind can be kept open just one small bit about this issue because, according to my understanding, that little bit will make a big difference.

Peace ✞

rosered · May 06, 2015, 03:21:25 AM

Wow Lastpost , I have never met any one as close to belief in the same manner , except my sister

I am thrilled

I gathered this by Jesus own words when He said it and'' I heard it in my spirit '' and the fact being '' hear what the SPIRIT IS SAYING '' and the dead shall hear my Voice and live , God is not the God of the dead but the living and all live to Him even in Moses day and Abrahams day , this Day is the Lords Day to me and have passed from death to life being old Adam to new man in Christ !!Luke 20 and Mark
37"But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB. 38"Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." 39Some of the scribes answered and said, "Teacher, You have spoken well."...

I believe they way its written by Paul all are gathered in Christ making Him the Lord of the dead and the living ...

the feet being His teaching and victory over an enemy

foot greek pous

a foot, both of men or beast

often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished /conquered the enemy being the bruising of the head by the foot or heel

of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet

1 Cor 15 , The Order of Resurrection
...27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.

28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

29Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?

HE is raising the dead to life again in righteous judgment short work on the earth The Calling of the Gentiles till the fulness of the Gentiles comes in

...27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED; 28FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY." 29And just as Isaiah foretold, "UNLESS THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY, WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."

Isaiah 10:22
Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous.

Isaiah 10:23
The Lord, the LORD Almighty, will carry out the destruction decreed upon the whole land.

For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make on the earth.

work. or, account. and cut.

I believe , and its just me , that our days are short on the earth just as satan's time is short , as God being merciful to us , Adam was 930 years old and in Psalms the Lord made it 70 years or 80 by grace and we fly away

It was 70 years Israel was held in captivity
I always took the literal 1000 year reign as the DAY OF THE LORD being 930 Adam + 70 years =1000 and 1000 years is a Day unto the Lord and DAY is a 1000 years I see this as the days of our earthly flesh being cut short in righteousness Jesus makes a quick work in the earth our bodies/earthly as individually because no man can know the hour none can if the time is for you right there and someone else tomorrow as it is the Father seeking those to worship Him in Spirit and truth , He choses in the here and now

...11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced

with death. 12"For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you,

having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."

The Abomination of Desolation
...21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him

for me this is why Paul said turn one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh SO IN THE DAY OF THE LORD his spirit is saved

as being given the power by breathing on these chosen to to remit / indebted forgive or retain to hold in check, restrain ones error , in John 20 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

I see this as both the laws and covenants are still in effect being death and Life ...

as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee

to confess HIM

marie glen · May 06, 2015, 05:30:37 AM

Quote from: Tom on May 05, 2015, 10:01:02 PM
Thanks for the compassion, sis, even if we have different interpretations. I wasn't sick for about seven years until this last Christmas, and now I'm gettin my butt kicked again. I think my immune system just got weak from sleep deprivation. Insomnia is one of my curses.

Oh dear! i thought it was your computer that was battling a virus! I :Pray: you are over it, and it is vanquished soon! I too suffer terribly from insomnia, to the point i now cheat and keep dissolve-able (meltaway) melatonin close to the bedside and as soon as I feel insomnia creeping in I take one.. It's more or less natural, and low dosage.. and i figure lack of sleep is the more harmful.. I buy it from Wally World (wal-mart).. I used to buy a more expensive brand at GNC..

marie glen · May 06, 2015, 06:20:14 AM

Quote from: lastpost on May 06, 2015, 01:44:03 AM

If the dead are not raised...

hi, lastpost, I don't think there are Christians who don't believe the dead are raised, I think the issue is when they are raised (and when is judgment) and how we hear the scripture about it..

I too was not taught by man nor church, and the things I am convinced of, i am thoroughly convinced of, but I don't believe one's view about death makes a difference in their future in the Kingdom, or means one is closer or farther away from the Lord.. or that one view insults Him, even if I think each one judged at death would be rather disorganized.. And also because we each stand in His righteousness and all are being transformed from image to image into a closer likeness to Him, and it's an issue of the heart, not doctrines, imo. I think we all are right about some things and not quite so right about others..

Quote from: lastpost on May 06, 2015, 01:44:03 AM
some kind of semi-conscious cloudy state - for eternity no less?

:laughing7: exactly! but I, personally, don't believe in any sort of floaty afterlife at all.. Nor a soul that is anything more than one's psyche and character.. all of that I believe to be extra biblical and preBiblical (and post:) as a belief of the immortal soul's progression and initiation into higher states of awareness or consciousness.. I'm a pretty down to earth gal.. though our new bodies will be incorruptible and of finer stuff, i believe they and the universe will still be "physical" and the lion, for instance, will literally "eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow" and "a small child will be able to play at the entrance to the viper's nest"..

I do believe we worship Him in spirit and in truth, but I don't think of matter as anything negative.. But as God's glorious act of creation.. And a glorious and wondrous creation it is.. "the fall" being into sin and error, not into matter(as the gnostics believed)

I believe when He returns "every eye will see Him".. and those who believe, will "be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is" we will understand what He is truly like..

I don't think Peter meant Jesus preached to souls in a place after their deaths, but i believe the verse is alluding to His preaching via the Spirit to them while the ark was being prepared, and while they, through unbelief were locked into judgment (aka the flood).. though I could, of course be wrong :) I don't believe there are ghosts, and believe the price Jesus paid for us all, was death, wherein He was actually dead in the grave for three nights and three days.. And I think it is okay for me to believe that just as it is okay for others to believe differently about it than i do. We may not understand each others reasoning, but we don't know who is the more accurate until later.. Even if we think we do know :smile:
:Peace2: and God bless! :smile:

marie glen · May 06, 2015, 06:39:47 AM

Quote from: rosered on May 06, 2015, 03:21:25 AM

as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee

to confess HIM

:iagree: :iagree: I think we are in total agreement in that! ..in a sense, I guess.. as I do believe judgment day, the one called the great white throne judgment, I believe will be a day of reviewing all human history. All world history, concerning all the issues and events of each generation and nation and people.. I believe it will be an age of judgment.. one which lasts five hundred years.

...This is because of the days and order of the ancient Fall holy days, and the days between them (as prophecy of His long 2nd advent, from Trumpets to Tabernacles (Rev 21:3, Concordant Version says it best, but also KJ, Young's and NASB, and any other that uses the word "Tabernacle" :smile: )

But! "as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee.."

:iagree: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :smile:

lastpost · May 06, 2015, 07:42:14 AM

When somebody claims that the dead are raised at physical death (continuity of life), then somebody with the belief that there is no continuity of life at physical death is going to claim "nobody knows for sure" or "we'll find out then".

And then there are also some who will be thinking of deception by their imagined Devil and Mosaic law suddenly becomes active again.

However, they only say this because they have no experience of a real Afterlife, they must claim Paul's travel to "somewhere" else or the Seer's travels in Revelation were all just "visions" or "dreams" or even "visions inside visions" or anything except being in Another World (aionion kolasin and zoe) co-existing with the physical world.

Others assume that instruction by the Holy Spirit must mean "thinking" with light bulbs coming on, rather than intelligent spiritual tuition. I should not expect anyone to understand what I'm saying because it's taken me a quarter of a century of daily and nightly experience to come to my present understanding.

That is why I say that for half of my life my experience and tuition leaves me with no doubt about the continuity of life - in contrast to the "nobody knows until then" belief with the many avenues of theories created to account for the lack of a current Afterlife in the Spirit - namely age-long pruning and age-long life.

Each to their own, we cannot be expected to accept more than our own experience, but I hope I have made a small difference because I do believe it matters what a person believes when the anastasis comes. The beauty of Jesus Christ is that He reaches and affects everyone regardless.

Peace ✞

JonesHenry · May 06, 2015, 08:15:24 AM

Aionios = age lasting

http://www.mercifultruth.com/eternity-detailedstudy.html

Owlam = over the horizon!

http://www.owlam.com

LONG punishment DOES NOT MEAN "everlasting"

eaglesway · May 06, 2015, 10:04:58 AM

Quote from: marie glen on May 06, 2015, 06:39:47 AM
Quote from: rosered on May 06, 2015, 03:21:25 AM

as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee

to confess HIM

:iagree: :iagree: I think we are in total agreement in that! ..in a sense, I guess.. as I do believe judgment day, the one called the great white throne judgment, I believe will be a day of reviewing all human history. All world history, concerning all the issues and events of each generation and nation and people.. I believe it will be an age of judgment.. one which lasts five hundred years.

...This is because of the days and order of the ancient Fall holy days, and the days between them (as prophecy of His long 2nd advent, from Trumpets to Tabernacles (Rev 21:3, Concordant Version says it best, but also KJ, Young's and NASB, and any other that uses the word "Tabernacle" :smile: )

But! "as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee.."

:iagree: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :smile:

I believe that many will bow the knee as soon as they see His face- and recognize in Him the love they always desired to know and the goodness and kindness they knew in their spirits by the witness of His "eternal power and divine nature that is made visible by the things He has made" (Rom 1)

I believe some will take a bit longer, or perhaps not longer, but rather will experience a "more intense" destruction of strongholds and fortresses of iniquity when the fire in His eyes and the sun shining in its strength of His face and the two edged sword of His mouth penetrates the veils and walls of their minds and hearts.

But I also believe some will experience a much longer, or more intense, penetration by the fire of God, according to the impenitence of their hearts and the wickedness of their souls and the magnitude of wicked and predatory acts they committed in their lives- many stripes, few stripes- ' Better to cut off your hand before you offend than to wind up in aionian pyr.

rosered · May 06, 2015, 12:18:14 PM

Quote from: eaglesway on May 06, 2015, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: marie glen on May 06, 2015, 06:39:47 AM
Quote from: rosered on May 06, 2015, 03:21:25 AM

as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee

to confess HIM

:iagree: :iagree: I think we are in total agreement in that! ..in a sense, I guess.. as I do believe judgment day, the one called the great white throne judgment, I believe will be a day of reviewing all human history. All world history, concerning all the issues and events of each generation and nation and people.. I believe it will be an age of judgment.. one which lasts five hundred years.

...This is because of the days and order of the ancient Fall holy days, and the days between them (as prophecy of His long 2nd advent, from Trumpets to Tabernacles (Rev 21:3, Concordant Version says it best, but also KJ, Young's and NASB, and any other that uses the word "Tabernacle" :smile: )

But! "as far as the unbelieving goes as they rise into judgment , it will be a very short work indeed, when they see Jesus and bow the knee.."

:iagree: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :smile:

I believe that many will bow the knee as soon as they see His face- and recognize in Him the love they always desired to know and the goodness and kindness they knew in their spirits by the witness of His "eternal power and divine nature that is made visible by the things He has made" (Rom 1)

I believe some will take a bit longer, or perhaps not longer, but rather will experience a "more intense" destruction of strongholds and fortresses of iniquity when the fire in His eyes and the sun shining in its strength of His face and the two edged sword of His mouth penetrates the veils and walls of their minds and hearts.

But I also believe some will experience a much longer, or more intense, penetration by the fire of God, according to the impenitence of their hearts and the wickedness of their souls and the magnitude of wicked and predatory acts they committed in their lives- many stripes, few stripes- ' Better to cut off your hand before you offend than to wind up in aionian pyr.

:thumbsup: :iagree: :HeartThrob:

News:

punishment everlasting

Tom

Tom

Tom

Tom

JonesHenry