Born Again?

[rosered]

I do not think the incorruptible seed , Which is Christ  in you  ever  sins ,  but the love is real  where the  love of mankind is limited to lust /desire that is not in others interest but self interest , there is a spirit in the world of error 1 John 4;6 ...5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
LOVE  though Christ .. OVERCOMES MULTITUDE OF SIN

   but the old man of sin rises up and is of sin nature [our battle in the body of death]


  1Peter 4 ;8...7The end of all things is near;


therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

8Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins.

9Be hospitable to one another without complaint


I love what you shared   John !!!  :HeartThrob:

  Jesus Christ being the only begotten one of its kind sent into the world died  [the perfect sacrifice   /gift of God ] so the new covenant  of promise   being fulfilled bring, springing forth   new life  would come though Him    , many sons     

[eaglesway]

Hi Rosered,

   I agree that the new man never sins. It is a paradox, in which the Holy Spirit often speaks to us in our duality, while comforting us regarding our coming dawn, a singularity- Christ in you, the hope of glory. :o)

[rosered]

Hi Rosered,

   I agree that the new man never sins. It is a paradox, in which the Holy Spirit often speaks to us in our duality, while comforting us regarding our coming dawn, a singularity- Christ in you, the hope of glory. :o)

       :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

Born-Begotten similarities indeed. I do find myself leaning towards EW's offering. Jesus as all humanity was first conceived then born-begotten. So my understanding to be born again one must first be conceived, then the process of being born.  To me that process will end-happen when I am born again complete in spirit. I have an Elder brother as my example.
Luk 2:21  And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Luk 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
Luk 1:24  And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,

Conceived G4815  to clasp, that is, seize (arrest, capture); specifically to conceive (literally or figuratively); by implication to aid: - catch, conceive, help, take.

The translators and translations sometimes give me fits..... 

Mat 1:20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Conceived G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
Born G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
Begotten G1080  figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

Me personally, i am 70 yrs. (young or old depending on the individual outlook) and the Lord found(conceived) me 40 yrs. ago, i consider myself to be a very hard birth...there is much travailing, yet i know that i will be brought forth when my time is right, His time, as a complete new creature. This is just how i understand me being born again...born from above...regenerated. I do not believe that Jesus was "regenerated."  :2c: :HeartThrob:

Late in modification...Because of my zeal i may be a breach birth...i desire to hit the ground running...but that is not in His plan.

[eaglesway]

I think there is something hidden in there between conceived, begotten, born and then "adopted", which is not the same as we think of adoption,

This is from an article I read and I had been taught this as a young believer and I think it has a lot of merit.

So yes. Paul says "adoption" right there in the Bible. He actually uses it a couple of times, but if one examines the text as written in the original Greek, one begins to understand that Paul didn't mean "adoption" like the modern world means "adoption. " His original Greek word huiothesia meant something else entirely.

The original Greek word in this scripture (and the others where Paul was translated as saying "adoption") is huiothesia, derived from the huios ("a son") and thesis ("a placing"), so literally the placing of/as a son. (Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985).

The "placing as a son" imagery was something with which Paul and his readers of Galatia would have been entirely familiar (Mitchell, 1993; Zanker, 1988). Basically, it was a ceremony that occurred within the Roman culture in which a male child of a citizen achieved the status of manhood. Prior to the ceremony, a son was considered to have the status of a slave in his father's house (The Story of Civilization, Vol. 3: Caesar and Christ, 1972, p. 57), even though he had the potential to inherit his father's wealth. The "placing as a son" ceremony occurred around a boy's teen years, when his father determined it was time for him to pass from being a child (and under the absolute power of his father) into adulthood.

Our adoption, fulfilled in the redemption of our bodies(Romans 8), is the declaration that we have overcome, received the crown of life, and sit with Him on the throne of His Father, inheritors of all things, meaning, 'placed' as sons over the father's estate/resources as executors and stewards.

All of this, from "conceived(alpha) through birth, maturation(until we all attain unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of the son of God), then finally "adoption"- in my view the first resurrection where we begin the work of ages to come, reconciling the whold creation, setting it free from futility nto the glorious liberty of the sons of God, is a process- wheels within wheels.

[micah7:9]

Now adoption is brought it..... my glass darkly seems smudged...but that is just me. :sigh: :HeartThrob: :dsunny: No offence intended.

[eaglesway]

None taken. Just exploring.  :o)

[rosered]

Hi John 

I hear what you share and what the Spirit is saying  , I have been trying to be listening  before speaking

For me this  being born again   is  spoken of  by Jesus some in John 3  , but to me Paul expounds on it in   1Thess 5   ,  that coming out of darkness [like a womb/tomb ] and for me its those still under the law   being held in death [the law of Moses is the ministration of death]   2Corth 3;7 The Glory of the New Covenant
7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 

Now for me this is the  return of Jesus Christ showing us that some  , not all   at this time   are   Children of the Day/thousand year  reign     in the sense of Romans 11  , you have read the whole chapter to  understand what the fulness of the gentiles /all other nations   represents   and the trampling of the Holy city for 42 months  means , and how all of Israel will be saved  by this   Day of the Lord [judgment of Christ]   that is the gathering back of those  broken branches  that were burned ,not literally but  cast off for a time    of those branches  chosen   in Christ before   those will be grafted back in and all supported by the ROOT =Jesus Christ , making the first last /Israel and the last first /all those  of the nations /Gentiles ..

For me Paul is speaking to the nations /all  those born again by faith though Jesus Christ  till that fulness  is complete , as to be destroying Babylon [idolatry]   



1 Thess  5 :5 The Day of the Lord 
...4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 5for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.



2Peter 3 ;87But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.

9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

  Hearing what the Spirit is saying is the same as   knowing what is happening  , the  Jealousy of God is to provoke  Israel into faithfulness towards Him

First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, ... Duet 10:12 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God

Love is as strong as death Solo 8 :6
6"Put me like a seal over your heart, Like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, Jealousy is as severe as Sheol/grave ; Its flashes are flashes of fire, The very flame of the LORD. 7"Many waters cannot quench love, Nor will rivers overflow it; If a man were to give all the riches of his house for love, It would be utterly despised."

God is a  jealous God and consuming fire  Deut 4 Warning against Idolatry
...23"So watch yourselves, that you do not forget the covenant of the LORD your God which He made with you, and make for yourselves a graven image in the form of anything against which the LORD your God has commanded you.

24"For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


25"When you become the father of children and children's children and have remained long in the land, and act corruptly, and make an idol in the form of anything, and do that which is evil in the sight of the LORD your God so as to provoke Him to anger,...

For me the odd thing is  all have fallen short  , the  other nations /gentiles are no better off  , and  serving the beast , false prophet and  satan in the sense of being adversarial     against God from the beginning ,    all from the work of their own hands /power   ,making idols   from their own imaginations   

It is the LORD  GOD  HIMSELF  ,   who saves us and teaches us  by His Holy Spirit     that makes us new    and holy and purified into  His  own  kind

   Jesus Christ come in the fulness of time to show us the WAY ,TRUTH AND LIFE   BY  THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH      ...I DO BELIEVE   JESUS CHRIST AND GOD THE FATHER ARE ONE !   


1Corth8 ...5For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth,

as indeed there are many gods and many lords,

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.


7However not all men have this knowledge; but some, being accustomed to the idol until now,

eat food as if it were sacrificed to an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.

  we are to eat His body and drink His blood   that we might have life in us       ...     this sacrifice   is the true and pure one  sent  for us that we  are not   idolaters
   eating and drinking of the SPIRIT  of Truth   as children   to grow  strong in the SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD     

[sheila]

   ....for me the odd thing is...that all have fallen short...  For the creature was subjected to vanity,not by it's own will..but by the

   will of He who subjected it...IN THE HOPE..the whole creation would be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    for God wrapped up ALL MEN into disobedience...IN ORDER to show mercy to ALL

[rosered]

   ....for me the odd thing is...that all have fallen short...  For the creature was subjected to vanity,not by it's own will..but by the

   will of He who subjected it...IN THE HOPE..the whole creation would be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

    for God wrapped up ALL MEN into disobedience...IN ORDER to show mercy to ALL

  WELL IT SURE IS ALL HIM !!! :HeartThrob:  NOT BY MIGHT MY SPIRIT Zach 4;6 The Gold Lampstand


...5So the angel who was speaking with me answered and said to me,

"Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."


6Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel saying, 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' says the LORD of hosts.


7What are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become a plain; and he will bring forth the top stone with shouts of "Grace, grace to it!"'"

EPH 2 ;20A Temple in the Lord
19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household,


20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner/CAP  stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord,


NEW JERUSALEM   REV 21  :dsunny:


Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.



Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Luke 24  ;44Jesus Opens the Meaning of Scriptures
44Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures

  the lamb open seals  book   Rev 5 Revelation 5 Expanded Bible (EXB)

5 Then I saw a scroll in the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. The scroll had writing on both sides and was ·kept closed [L sealed] with seven seals [C a wax stamp that sealed a document shut]. 2 And I saw a ·powerful [mighty] angel ·calling [proclaiming] in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But there was no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth who could open the scroll or look inside it. 4 I cried ·bitterly [L much] because there was no one who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not cry! [L Look; T Behold] The Lion from the tribe of Judah [C a messianic title; Gen. 49:9–10], ·David's descendant [L the root of David; C a messianic title applied to Christ; Is. 11:10], has ·won the victory [overcome; conquered] so that he is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

6 Then I saw a Lamb [C Jesus] standing ·in the center of the throne and in the middle of the four living creatures and the elders [or between the throne and the living creatures and among the elders]. The Lamb looked as if he had been ·killed [slaughtered; slain]. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God [C either angels or the "sevenfold Spirit"; see 1:4] that were sent into all the world. 7 The Lamb came and ·took [received] the scroll from the right hand of the One sitting on the throne. 8 When he took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders [4:4] ·bowed down [fell] before the Lamb. Each one of them had a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's holy people [Ps. 141:2]. 9 And they all sang a new song [Ps. 33:3; 40:3; 98:1] to the Lamb:

"You are worthy to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
because you were ·killed [slaughtered; slain],
    and with ·the blood of your death [L your blood] you ·bought [ransomed; purchased; redeemed] people for God
    from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
10 You made them to be a kingdom ·of priests [or and priests; Ex. 19:6] for our God,
    and they will ·rule [reign; C other manuscripts have "they reign" (present tense)] on the earth."

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.



Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.



1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.



Act 4:11 He is " 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone.

Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.(NIV)



Isa 28:16 So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation; the one who trusts will never be dismayed.






Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

[joeteekay]

I understand what you posted John. 

But I cannot get John 3:6 out of my mind. 

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This statement of Jesus is not metaphorical IMO.

Jesus plainly said that which is born of the flesh is flesh. All of us - every human being.
That which is born of the spirit is spirit. None of us are in that plain of existence.  We are not spirit.


Many Protestants and practically all evangelicals believe they are "born again" Christians.  They think that after becoming "believers, having a water baptism and accepting Christ" they have been "born again."  . They have been taught that being "born again" occurs in this life, upon "receiving Jesus."  I do not believe the scriptures teach that.  Being born again does not happen at conversion—but rather, the Bible teaches that rebirth comes long after this initial step in a new Christian's life.

Jesus said, "(John 3:3) Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God".   

One's ability to "see God's kingdom" hinges solely on whether he is "born again." Obviously, we must comprehend the importance of how and when people are born again!

The terms "kingdom" and "kingdom of God" are found throughout the New Testament. Although there are scriptures that that you can enter the Kingdom of God now in type and shadow , the reality is that there is coming a literal Kingdom of God when He returns to be Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That is when His elect enter in, being born again.

Being born again into the Kingdom of God has two-phases. The first phase is to be born as a human being:
Man is the only physical being which can ever enter the Kingdom of God. So the first step to eventually becoming a spirit being in of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman.  However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present flesh and blood body:

(I Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption.

The Bible describes only two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

(I Corinthians 15:44) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

Truly, that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)


The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type -- a spiritual body! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God!

Anything born of the flesh is flesh. Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit. The product of any birth is identical to the type of birth which created that product. Flesh births produce flesh bodies. Spiritual births produce spiritual bodies.

The first step is a physical birth which gains one entry into the kingdom of man. Step two is a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. If men accept Jesus as their Savoir their names are written into the book of life and they become heirs to eternal life.
They were born initially as physical bodies and will be born again as spiritual bodies upon the return of Jesus:

That simple truth is that humans are born as physical beings. They can become heirs to the Kingdom of God through a belief in Jesus. They enter the Kingdom of God when born again as spiritual beings. This occurs at the seventh trump.

(I Corinthians 15:51-52)  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, it true that, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

(Romans 6:4-5) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Although we all commit sins in the future, even after baptism by the Holy Spirit, nevertheless we are a new creature in Christ., but we are not born again.

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Rom_8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

It is true that we have a new life in Jesus with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are born again.

We have spiritual life when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and given a down payment of the Spirit.


2Co_1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co_5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of eternal spiritual beings. At present, this includes only God and the angels. Man's destiny is to be in the Kingdom of God.

(Col. 1:15, 18).every creature...And He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence"

This further clarifies when one is born again. Jesus is firstborn FROM THE DEAD.  One's new birth occurs after death—and involves the resurrection from the dead.  The phrase "firstborn of every creature" adds double emphasis to Paul's statement—and the meaning.

He is the beginning." This alone proves Jesus' Resurrection from the dead refers to the order in time sequence that this occurs. He is the "beginning" of those others who will receive eonian life at His Return—when the Resurrection of the dead occurs. "Beginning" references who is first. The next passage builds on and helps explain this one.

Paul also recorded, "For whom [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

God intends to have many sons—Jesus' brethren, born later in His Plan. If one is designated as first, others must follow, or first has no meaning. It must include more later. In the case of salvation, "many" will follow.  In fact all will follow in their own order, the salvation of all.

[micah7:9]

I understand what you posted John. 

But I cannot get John 3:6 out of my mind. 

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This statement of Jesus is not metaphorical IMO.

Jesus plainly said that which is born of the flesh is flesh. All of us - every human being.
That which is born of the spirit is spirit. None of us are in that plain of existence.  We are not spirit.


Many Protestants and practically all evangelicals believe they are "born again" Christians.  They think that after becoming "believers, having a water baptism and accepting Christ" they have been "born again."  . They have been taught that being "born again" occurs in this life, upon "receiving Jesus."  I do not believe the scriptures teach that.  Being born again does not happen at conversion—but rather, the Bible teaches that rebirth comes long after this initial step in a new Christian's life.

Jesus said, "(John 3:3) Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God".   

One's ability to "see God's kingdom" hinges solely on whether he is "born again." Obviously, we must comprehend the importance of how and when people are born again!

The terms "kingdom" and "kingdom of God" are found throughout the New Testament. Although there are scriptures that that you can enter the Kingdom of God now in type and shadow , the reality is that there is coming a literal Kingdom of God when He returns to be Lord of Lords and King of Kings. That is when His elect enter in, being born again.

Being born again into the Kingdom of God has two-phases. The first phase is to be born as a human being:
Man is the only physical being which can ever enter the Kingdom of God. So the first step to eventually becoming a spirit being in of the Kingdom of God is to be born as a man or woman.  However, man cannot enter the Kingdom of God in his present flesh and blood body:

(I Corinthians 15:50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit in corruption.

The Bible describes only two types of beings, physical and spiritual:

(I Corinthians 15:44) There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

Truly, that which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)


The scriptures state that man must be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. What type of birth must this be? There are only two body types, physical and spiritual, and man is born initially as a physical flesh and blood body. But flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God! Therefore, for man to enter the Kingdom of God he must abandon his physical body and be born again as the only remaining body type -- a spiritual body! Man must be born again as a spirit to enter the Kingdom of God!

Anything born of the flesh is flesh. Man is flesh! Anything born of the Spirit is spirit. The product of any birth is identical to the type of birth which created that product. Flesh births produce flesh bodies. Spiritual births produce spiritual bodies.

The first step is a physical birth which gains one entry into the kingdom of man. Step two is a spiritual birth into the Kingdom of God. If men accept Jesus as their Savoir their names are written into the book of life and they become heirs to eternal life.
They were born initially as physical bodies and will be born again as spiritual bodies upon the return of Jesus:

That simple truth is that humans are born as physical beings. They can become heirs to the Kingdom of God through a belief in Jesus. They enter the Kingdom of God when born again as spiritual beings. This occurs at the seventh trump.

(I Corinthians 15:51-52)  Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, it true that, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (II Corinthians 5:17)

(Romans 6:4-5) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


Although we all commit sins in the future, even after baptism by the Holy Spirit, nevertheless we are a new creature in Christ., but we are not born again.

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Gal_6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Eph_2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Rom_8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

It is true that we have a new life in Jesus with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but that does not mean we are born again.

We have spiritual life when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit and given a down payment of the Spirit.


2Co_1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co_5:5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The second birth, that of being born again, is clearly defined as a spiritual birth. The Kingdom of God is composed exclusively of eternal spiritual beings. At present, this includes only God and the angels. Man's destiny is to be in the Kingdom of God.

(Col. 1:15, 18).every creature...And He is the head of the Body, the Church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence"

This further clarifies when one is born again. Jesus is firstborn FROM THE DEAD.  One's new birth occurs after death—and involves the resurrection from the dead.  The phrase "firstborn of every creature" adds double emphasis to Paul's statement—and the meaning.

He is the beginning." This alone proves Jesus' Resurrection from the dead refers to the order in time sequence that this occurs. He is the "beginning" of those others who will receive eonian life at His Return—when the Resurrection of the dead occurs. "Beginning" references who is first. The next passage builds on and helps explain this one.

Paul also recorded, "For whom [God] did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

God intends to have many sons—Jesus' brethren, born later in His Plan. If one is designated as first, others must follow, or first has no meaning. It must include more later. In the case of salvation, "many" will follow.  In fact all will follow in their own order, the salvation of all.

I like that  :Peace2:

[jabcat]

I like much of what you say Joe.  Other aspects, including the final conclusion that no one is born again until the next age, I'm still not convinced of its final clarity.  One thought is, the kingdom is now.  Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.  Or is it talking about another kingdom, i.e., "eternal life"/next age...the whole "which kingdom is being referred to", to me, can be confusing.  Not sure I've ever read a 100% certainty explanation of the kingdoms, "of heaven"/"of God".  I believe for the believer, although we're still "looking for a city" and "the redemption of the body", and "the things God has laid in store" for those believing in Him, still, Life in Him is now.

On one hand I think there's some wondering over the specific term "born again" and what it exactly means (good question), when in fact (IMO) things can be summed up like this;  believe on Jesus as Savior, He makes us His child through grace, the Holy Spirit indwells us, renews us, and seals us , and then we are completely redeemed in the next age with the redemption of our body.  I personally believe Jesus was saying "you must believe on Me [the way, truth and life, only way to the Father] and you are mine, you are renewed spiritually.  A child, not a bastard" - however some of the other details shake out. 

As I think about water, Spirit, new birth, etc., I find the following interesting as another angle from which to consider;

"Jesus answered Nicodemus's confusion by elaborating on the truth He introduced in verse 3: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." A number of interpretations have been offered to explain the phrase born of water. Some see two births here, one natural, and the other spiritual. Proponents of this view interpret the water as the amniotic fluid that flows from the womb just before childbirth. But it is not clear that the ancients described natural birth in that way. Further, the phrase born of water and the Spirit parallels the phrase "born again" in verse 3; thus, only one birth is in view. Others see in the phrase born of water a reference to baptism, either that of John the Baptist, or Christian baptism. But Nicodemus would not have understood Christian baptism (which did not yet exist) nor misunderstood John the Baptist's baptism. Nor would Jesus have refrained from baptizing people (4:2) if baptism were necessary for salvation. Still others see the phrase as a reference to Jewish ceremonial washings, which being born of the Spirit transcends. However the two terms are not in contrast with each other, but combine to form a parallel with the phrase "born again" in verse 3. (For a careful examination of the various interpretations of born of water, see D. A. Carson, The Gospel According to John, The Pillar New Testament Commentary [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1991], 191–96.)

Since Jesus expected Nicodemus to understand this truth (v. 10), it must have been something with which he was familiar. Water and Spirit often refer symbolically in the Old Testament to spiritual renewal and cleansing (cf. Num. 19:17–19; Isa. 4:4; 32:15; 44:3; 55:1; Joel 2:28–29; Zech. 13:1). In one of the most glorious passages in all of Scripture describing Israel's restoration to the Lord by the new covenant, God said through Ezekiel,

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezek. 36:24–27)

It was surely this passage that Jesus had in mind, showing regeneration to be an Old Testament truth (cf. Deut. 30:6; Jer. 31:31–34; Ezek. 11:18–20) with which Nicodemus would have been acquainted. Against this Old Testament backdrop, Christ's point was unmistakable: Without the spiritual washing of the soul, a cleansing accomplished only by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) through the Word of God (Eph. 5:26), no one can enter God's kingdom.

Jesus continued by further emphasizing that this spiritual cleansing is wholly a work of God, and not the result of human effort: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Just as only human nature can beget human nature, so also only the Holy Spirit can effect spiritual transformation. The term flesh (sarx) here refers merely to human nature (as it does in 1:13–14); in this context, it does not have the negative moral connotation that it frequently does in Paul's writings (e.g., Rom. 8:1–8, 12–13). Even if a physical rebirth were possible, it would produce only flesh. Thus, only the Spirit can produce the spiritual birth required for entrance into God's kingdom. Regeneration is entirely His work, unaided by any human effort (cf. Rom. 3:25).

Although Jesus' words were based on Old Testament revelation, they ran completely contrary to everything Nicodemus had been taught. For his entire life he had believed that salvation came through his own external merit. Now he found it exceedingly difficult to think otherwise. Aware of his astonishment, Jesus continued, "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' " The verb translated must is a strong term; John used it elsewhere in his gospel to refer to the necessity of the crucifixion (3:14; 12:34), of John the Baptist's inferiority to Christ (3:30), of the proper method of worshiping God (4:24), of Jesus carrying out His ministry (4:4; 9:4; 10:16), and of the necessity of the resurrection (20:9). It was absolutely necessary for Nicodemus to get over his astonishment at being so wrong about how one is accepted into God's kingdom and seek to be born again if he was to enter. And he could never do so based on his own righteous works.

Then the Lord illustrated His point with a familiar example from nature: "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." The wind cannot be controlled; it blows where it wishes. And though its general direction can be known, where it comes from and where it is going cannot be precisely determined. Nevertheless, the wind's effects can be observed. The same is true of the work of the Spirit. His sovereign work of regeneration in the human heart can neither be controlled nor predicted. Yet its effects can be seen in the transformed lives of those who are born of the Spirit."  gracetoyou.org

[jabcat]

I think, what would the main thing be Jesus wanted to get across to Nicodemus? What would He be saying to this lost man that help Him?  Or was He talking parables not to be understood at the time?

Then also, how does that fit in with all other verses about the new birth, new creation, Life more abundantly, child not bastard, kingdom among/within you, new wineskin (all in this life?)  vs. things prepared, redemption of the body, God all in all (future).  Honestly, I'm not sure I can know right now.  Again, I can just sum it up now with   

believe on Jesus as Savior, He makes us His child through grace, the Holy Spirit indwells us, renews us, and seals us , and then we are completely redeemed in the next age with the redemption of our body [and all the things God has in store for those who love Him]. 

Blessings.

[Tom]

I know this phrase "born again" is popular among believers, but I no longer share the popular belief and have gotten some heat here before for saying that. I understand where Joe's coming from because I believe Christ was telling Nicodemus about the regeneration of Israel in the next eon, but I'm not going to get back into debating all the scriptures everybody likes to quote to back up the popular belief. I'm just giving Joe some props for having a different understanding than the popular one.

[jabcat]

Popular's not good if it's wrong.  Going against the grain is good if it's right.  To me, there are questions to handle with care, and I'm not positive on all the details.

[Tom]

I agree. I'm not trying to be a rebel without a cause. I just have a different interpretation than the popular one. I think we believers are a "new creation" as Paul says. That's in a figurative sense until we're actually changed when we're given spiritual bodies.

[jabcat]

I also share the belief in the regeneration of Israel in the next age, but I also believe in the regeneration of the believer through the Holy Spirit and fire in this age.  So   :Peace2:, we'll know for sure some day :).

[Tom]

I understand. God's love changes our lives for sure, and those of us who were lost souls definitely feel like we have new lives now. I know it's only by the power of the holy spirit of God that my life turned around, and I have peace now. I thank God for that.

[Tom]

Sometimes I think it can get to be like we're debating about whether it's six or a half dozen. Maybe it's just different ways of looking at things. I just have come to think that, before Christ was crucified, he was ministering mostly to his people, the Jews, and, when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," he was referring to the destiny of Israel in the next eon. I think it's Paul, who was commissioned by the risen Christ, who told those of us mostly of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, that we're a "new creation" which actually seems to be a more radical idea than being "born again" even though Nicodemus thought that was pretty strange too. The reason I say more radical is because "new creation" seems to imply a completely different life form than the old one being born again, and I think that's because we'll be compatible with the celestial realm during the final eons while Israel will be a regenerated earthly kingdom.   

[joeteekay]

Sometimes I think it can get to be like we're debating about whether it's six or a half dozen. Maybe it's just different ways of looking at things. I just have come to think that, before Christ was crucified, he was ministering mostly to his people, the Jews, and, when he spoke to Nicodemus about being "born again," he was referring to the destiny of Israel in the next eon. I think it's Paul, who was commissioned by the risen Christ, who told those of us mostly of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, that we're a "new creation" which actually seems to be a more radical idea than being "born again" even though Nicodemus thought that was pretty strange too. The reason I say more radical is because "new creation" seems to imply a completely different life form than the old one being born again, and I think that's because we'll be compatible with the celestial realm during the final eons while Israel will be a regenerated earthly kingdom.

Thanks Tom,
Good points for sure.
This raises the question of the discourse Jesus had regarding Mat. 25 which you mention as being about the House of Israel.

I do not think we have the total answers on those as well as the born again question

Lois Abbot had the same thoughts as you are mentioning. I agree with Rodger Tutt answer on this topic;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg182412/#msg182412

http://tentmaker.org/forum/discussions-on-universal-salvation/snippets-from-the-hard-copy-ur-library-of-rodger-tutt/msg182443/#msg182443

[rosered]

:thumbsup:    James /Jabcat :HeartThrob:

   Born again is also what Saul  who  was never called   Saul again  , but was given by Jesus   a new name  Paul ,  He did see the Kingdom of God
  the pure in Heart shall see GOD   HE SAW JESUS AND GOD ARE ONE       MATT 5

new  name new stone and hidden manna  ,  The name Paulus means Little or Small.

  the least greatest...47But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, 48and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great."


born of the kingdom
  we are called little children in many places    ,  to me that is being born again     and walking in the Spirit    from  being babes in Christ   
  so many places   prove to me we are born of the Spirit  here and now , many , many      are

  Paul mentions this fact also  what of the baptism of the dead ? if all we have hope in  this life we are of men most miserable   ,, saying folks come on are you denying the power of God as to what resurrection is ??  you must wait till you are dead and lay in the grave till Christ comes  for the second time ???

Most assuredly     when Jesus returns   He come like a thief in the night ,,,,, 
what is this saying than ?

Its unexpected and  when you are  sleeping and  NOT AWARE  ITS JESUS CHRIST !! 
in Adam all die , this is true , but remember the deep sleep   he put  upon Adam and many   they were not  awakened , till righteousness COME TO THEM !!!!

21So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and'' closed up the flesh'' at that place.



22The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man....

1 Corinthians 11:8
For man did not come from woman, but woman from man;   
This is the same  /picture  meaning of How the church /bride  / come out of Christ side though Blood and water    ! 
the baptism  of blood and water death was how the  new  birth would happen and its in ONE DAY     as spoken of in the old testament 
  the DAY OF THE LORD      whom is the  MASTER of the dead and living   
   BOTH death and Life come  out of Him  ,   ALL THINGS ARE CREATED  BY HIM FOR HIM AND THOUGH HIM          COL 1 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.!!!     The inheritance      of the Spirit promise is  ALL THINGS ARE YOURS!! 

  life and death, the sleep of death is not knowing Gods  plan , the fear and dread is not knowing God     !!    the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God ,  but men boasting in men  seeing themselves as superior  to one another    , provoking to  jealousy ,   a wrath that does not work the righteousness of God , but thinking themselves as special     
    1 CORINTH 3 ...21So then let no one boast in men.

For all things belong to you, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come; all things belong to you, 23and you belong to Christ; and Christ belongs to God.

The origin  of faith come  from a promise to Abram    long ago  , His day was  fear and dread    and the beginning of Wisdom from God    , the fear of the Lord in His presence!!

Genesis 15:12
As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him.

1 Samuel 26:12
So David took the spear and water jug near Saul's head, and they left. No one saw or knew about it, nor did anyone wake up. They were all sleeping, because the LORD had put them into a deep sleep.


J ob 4:13 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on men,


Job 33:15 In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men, ...


Proverbs 19:15 Slothfulness casts into a deep sleep; and an idle soul shall suffer hunger.


Daniel 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face ...
 
the deep sleep of dead  being Not knowing  what is happening to you !!  the fear of the Lord comes upon you and it is the true beginning of wisdom

  The same   with these ,     

Colossians 2:12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead.


Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Isaiah 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Luke 20:4 |
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?


Acts 19:3 |
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, and God called you to ·have one hope [L one hope of your calling]. 5 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. 6 There is one God and Father of everything. ·He rules everything and is everywhere and is in everything [L ...who is over all and through all and in all].

7 Each one of us has been given the ·special gift of grace [L grace; or gift], ·showing how generous Christ is [or in proportion to Christ's gift; L according to the measure of Christ's gift]. 8 That is why it says in the Scriptures,

"When he ·went up [ascended] to the heights,
    he ·led a parade of captives [or took captives into captivity],
    and he gave gifts to people [Ps. 68:18]."


Mark 11:30
The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.


Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!


Him  speaking of the Cross  dieath He willingly laid down His life  , to bring  righteous judgment in the world     and salvation to all men by the new covenant   /good news


Acts 1:22 |
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.


Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;


Luke 7:29 |
And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.


Acts 13:24
When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.


Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


   For me   the water baptism  , never washes away the filth of the flesh but makes a clean conscience  towards  God  preparing the way   for the Lord coming to us   



  and the Blood one of Jesus Christ baptism is    HOLY SPIRIT & FIRE     doing  the cleansing of the filth of the flesh

  Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

  the least of the kingdom is greater than John  Matt 11 ...10"This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'


11"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist!



Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force....

13 All the prophets and the law of Moses ·told about what would happen [L prophesied] until ·the time John came [L John]. 14 And if you ·will believe what they said, you will believe that John is Elijah [L are willing to accept it, he is Elijah], whom they said would come. 15 ·Let those with ears use them and listen[L The one who has ears to hear, let him hear]!

16 "·What can I say about the people of this time? What are they like? [L To what shall I compare this generation?] They are like children sitting in the marketplace, who call out to each other,

17 'We played ·music [L the pipe/flute] for you, but you did not dance;
    we sang a ·sad song [funeral song; dirge], but you did not ·cry [weep].' [C The religious leaders wanted John to "dance" (lighten up his severe message) and wanted Jesus to "mourn" (follow their restrictive lifestyle).]
18 [L For] John came and did not eat or drink like other people. So people say, 'He ·has [is possessed by] a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came, eating and drinking, and people say, 'Look at him! ·He eats too much and drinks too much wine [L He's a glutton and a drunkard], and he is a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is ·proved to be right [vindicated] by ·what she does [or its deeds/actions/results; C Wisdom is personified as a woman (Prov. 8), her "children" being those who respond favorably to the message of John and Jesus]."

  Wisdom is justified of her Children  , those born again  believers !!

[Tom]

I've read that Paul means "pause," signifying the pause in the fulfillment of the earthy kingdom of the heavens in Israel until all who were chosen are called out of the nations. 

[Tom]

Christ told his disciples not even to go on a road of the nations (Matthew 10:5,6), and Christ also said he was only commissioned for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). I think it's popular to assume that everything Christ said to his people, the Jews, is also meant to apply to those of us of the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, but I no longer believe that. That's why I think Christ was speaking to Nicodemus specifically about Israel.

[Tom]

I think the risen Christ chose Paul outside Israel on the road to Damascus to signify there was a distinct evangel to be given to the nations, the ecclesia, the body of Christ, and part of that is that we're figuratively a new creation now and will be literally when we're changed to spiritual bodies when Christ meets us in the air. I think that's different than Christ telling Nicodemus that Israel would be regenerated for the Millennium. But I really don't want to cause stress among the brothers and sisters by continuing to go round and round about this. Like it's been said before, we all agree God is the savior of all mankind, and Christ's blood on the cross reconciles all on earth and in the heavens. So, if you want to believe you're born again, and you're still alive when you're dead, that's your choice. I just share my perspective about this when I have an opportunity.