Born Again?

[sheila]

 can't say that I agree with that Tom.  Jesus said, 'Now,My Kingdom is not from this source"   satan possessed all the kingdoms of

  the world.  thus Prince of this world cometh

.and for one act of worship could give them to whomever he wanted.  so,the way I see it..the mountain that fills the earth..

  and the scriptures that speak of 'let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and learn His ways" speaks of celestial?Jerusalem above"

     Israel was born again as a nation in troubleous times............and as yet still typify's Haagar and her children in bondage......

   yet,the recieving of them back in[the salvation of All] is life from the dead...and the earth must give up her dead. cursed is the earth

for thy sake,Adam.

   the foundation of this earth is dust...the foundations[12] of the world/earth to come/new earth/heaven creation/Jerusalem above..are

precious stones....

  our new celestial bodies are made of precious stones/not dust...rise! shake yourself free of the dust/put on your garments  of splendour.


      New wine is put in new wineskins...the new covenant/new spirit creation is put in[clothed] with a new vessel..and it is not clay/dust

  of this earth...Adam/Edom red clay. clothed in scarlet wool/sheep for the slaughter/granted to be clothed in clean white linen=Bride

  city coming down to earth/Celestial city descends [those who preceded in death with Him..meet the Lord in the air

.flesh and blood can not inherit through the new covenant..because God bound up all men

in disobedience[the flesh is weak] in order to show mercy unto all  TOL is spiritual/celestial...tokogae is terrestial..........
.

   Paul spoke about his tent/body of death being torn down..and him not wanting to be unclothed....

   the dust of the earth[terrestial body] is the serpents food...Christ's heel is bruised of it when He is lifted up..but the serpent's head

  is crushed beneath His feet.    I will wipe the earth free of both man and beast...the wicked will only have a heap of rubble.

    when man no longer resides in the earth..the serpent will no longer have any food[our weakness of flesh made of dust]

       the 12 tribes of Israel were represented on the High Priest apron as precious stones.  the light of God in us if oft hidden

  in these clay/dusty vessels....they must be transfigured.

    I go to prepare a place for you..and I will return for you......

[micah7:9]

Sorry Micah, I wasnt trying to say, "No debate". I should have said, "Doesnt matter to me". I am trying to say is, if the scriptures say we are/were born again, that settles is for me, and I have not seen a single scriptural rebuttal of the verses that have been listed, saying we are and were. Lotsa reasons, but I reason from the scriptures, and I don't see anything by anyone that contradicts what those verses plainly(to me) say.

The purpose of debate or discussion is to present our view, but the scriptures have to be the basis of that.

I have more sympathy for the position that we are not yet saved(even tho I disagree) because our salvation is a work in progress and it is not complete untill we are in the ALL IN ALL- but someone will have to show me some verses, or information concerning translation before I can give the idea we have not yet been born again any serious consideration.

All I can say is that you and I are still human, no matter how much I believe and I do, that I have been born from above and that I am saved and a child of God, my thoughts, my belief, my faith and hope is not as yet allowing me to perform as the One who has accomplished what I have not yet even come close to. I am saved should I endure, my fear is not a hell. Yet I do not see myself as an overcomer, but I know that when my birth is complete, when I am truly saved[made whole and healed] I trust in my God, Saviour and Lord.  Mic 7:8  Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Mic 7:9  The indignation of Jehovah I do bear, For I have sinned against Him, Till that He doth plead my cause, And hath executed my judgment, He doth bring me forth to the light, I look on His righteousness.
You believe that you are already saved and born again, yet we both search the scriptures for answers to many questions, yet I can not say, Joh 5:8  Jesus saith to him, `Rise, take up thy couch, and be walking;'
"my thoughts, my belief, my faith and hope is not as yet allowing me to perform as the One who has accomplished what I have not yet even come close to." :2c:

[eaglesway]

What I don't understand, is why you would think you have to be able to say, "Rise up, take you bed and walk", to be saved or born again.

And still no one has addressed the scriptures concerning the matter, as to whather they are invalid or something. I definitely don't get it. But one thing I definitely agree with.

You and I are still human.   :banana:

But we are also "in Christ", and that makes us a new creation    :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

I forgot to mention.....HE IS NOT FINISHED WITH ME YET AND I WAIT! And that gives me a great deal of hope that as the example of my Elder brother I may be given the power, from above, Our Father, to say to another, RISE UP AND WALK.
I offer, as long as we are still human, we have not as yet made the grade, but the race is not over....PRAISE HIS NAME! Love you EW :HeartThrob: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Luv u too brutha :o)

[micah7:9]

Luv u too brutha :o)

You meant brother right? :laugh:

[eaglesway]

yea, "brutha", being correctly translated, is a Brooklynese morph of "brother" ;o)

[Tom]

I think that, when Christ said to Nicodemus, "You must be begotten anew, born again, or born from above" (John 3:7), he was speaking about Israel, which the Greek "humas," the plural of "you," indicates. Before Christ was crucified, he said he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24), and he also told his disciples not to go to the nations, only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 10:5,6). It wasn't until after Christ was roused from the dead that he appeared to Paul, outside Israel on the road to Damascus, and sent him to the nations with the evangel (Acts 9:1-15). Paul never spoke of being "born again," only a "new creation" (2 Corinthians 5:17), because there's a distinction. I don't believe the ecclesia, the body of Christ, are the lost sheep of Israel, the new Israel, or true Israel. I think God has a specific purpose for Israel who will be regenerated spiritually in the next eon when the kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem is ruled by Christ, and all the nations on earth will come to God through Israel. I think that's what being "born again" refers to while being a "new creation" refers to the "body of Christ" who have an eonian celestial destiny. I realize this is not the popular interpretation, but I've come to believe it. I think Israel is God's chosen people on earth, and I don't think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, has taken over that role. I realize we of the nations are one with Israel in spirit (Ephesians 3:5-6), but it seems to be obvious they're distinct from the ecclesia now because they're temporarily unbelievers of the evangel until all who were chosen are called out of the nations (Romans 11:25). I think that's according to God's will (Romans 11:23-36). So I think the scriptures about being born again are valid, but it's a question of exactly who that refers to and why.

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[eaglesway]

In Rom 9-11, Paul dealt with five groups. All in relation to the olive tree, whose root is Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob, then the twelve tribes of Israel. The five groups were 1)His unbelieving brethren, who were cut off of the olive tree, 2) the remnant, which is what remains of the olive tree in this age, 3)the wild olive branches, Gentiles, grafted into the olive tree, because of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. 4) natural branches, cut off for unbelief, that can be grafted back in at anytime, by receiving Messiah, 5) wild branches, that having been grafted in by grace, can be cut off for arrogance, boasting over the natural branches who had been cut off.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Messiah Jesus.

This one body is also the olive tree.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?


If there is an Israel after the flesh it follows that there is an Israel after the Spirit


15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


It looks to me like the Israel of God is "in Christ".


11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Those of us who were "Gentiles in the flesh" were aliens but now we heve been brought near, included in the commonwealth and the promises. The reconciliation is to Christ, and through Him into the one olive tree, which is the Israel of God. Those wild branches who are grafted in are one with the natural branches. One bread. One body.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;Eph


This again speaks of grafting in, in a sense. "Gentiles in the flesh" are now in "Israel in the spirit" through reconciliation into the one new man. In Zechariah, Israel is the Lampstand. This plan of God begun in Israel continues in the "ecclesia", which is not Israel grafted into the Gentile believers, but is the "Gentiles in the flesh" grafted into the olive tree, to form a new creation, that is an extension of the original purpose of Israel, through Messiah Yashuah, a Jew of the lineage of David, the Root.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18

Christ first, Alpha, the Root, then the remnant which is the olive tree, the stump from which the new creature is formed by grafting in wild branches, becoming the ecclesia, which is the assembly detailed in Hebrews 12.


In my opinion this is the Israel of God.

Heb 12:22

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


All Israel will be saved because the cut-off branches (unbelieving Jews)will be grafted back into the new creation, the Israel of God, the one olive tree. Eventually the entire creation will be grafted into it.

Anyone who is born of the Spirit is "in Christ", anyone who is "in Christ" is in the olive tree. The olive tree is the Israel of God.

:2c:

[sheila]

 yep! Joseph is a fruitful branch that climbs over a wall...the wall is the wall of seperation between jew and gentile..making one new man

  of the two.   Joseph was told..your wife is with child by the holy spirit....

[micah7:9]

In Rom 9-11, Paul dealt with five groups. All in relation to the olive tree, whose root is Abraham, then Isaac, then Jacob, then the twelve tribes of Israel. The five groups were 1)His unbelieving brethren, who were cut off of the olive tree, 2) the remnant, which is what remains of the olive tree in this age, 3)the wild olive branches, Gentiles, grafted into the olive tree, because of the death, burial and resurrection of Messiah. 4) natural branches, cut off for unbelief, that can be grafted back in at anytime, by receiving Messiah, 5) wild branches, that having been grafted in by grace, can be cut off for arrogance, boasting over the natural branches who had been cut off.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Messiah Jesus.

This one body is also the olive tree.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?


If there is an Israel after the flesh it follows that there is an Israel after the Spirit


15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


It looks to me like the Israel of God is "in Christ".


11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Those of us who were "Gentiles in the flesh" were aliens but now we heve been brought near, included in the commonwealth and the promises. The reconciliation is to Christ, and through Him into the one olive tree, which is the Israel of God. Those wild branches who are grafted in are one with the natural branches. One bread. One body.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;Eph


This again speaks of grafting in, in a sense. "Gentiles in the flesh" are now in "Israel in the spirit" through reconciliation into the one new man. In Zechariah, Israel is the Lampstand. This plan of God begun in Israel continues in the "ecclesia", which is not Israel grafted into the Gentile believers, but is the "Gentiles in the flesh" grafted into the olive tree, to form a new creation, that is an extension of the original purpose of Israel, through Messiah Yashuah, a Jew of the lineage of David, the Root.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18

Christ first, Alpha, the Root, then the remnant which is the olive tree, the stump from which the new creature is formed by grafting in wild branches, becoming the ecclesia, which is the assembly detailed in Hebrews 12.


In my opinion this is the Israel of God.

Heb 12:22

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


All Israel will be saved because the cut-off branches (unbelieving Jews)will be grafted back into the new creation, the Israel of God, the one olive tree. Eventually the entire creation will be grafted into it.

Anyone who is born of the Spirit is "in Christ", anyone who is "in Christ" is in the olive tree. The olive tree is the Israel of God.

:2c:

I like that! :HeartThrob:

[micah7:9]

yep! Joseph is a fruitful branch that climbs over a wall...the wall is the wall of seperation between jew and gentile..making one new man

  of the two.   Joseph was told..your wife is with child by the holy spirit....

:dsunny:

[Tom]

I'm just a humble believer who interprets scripture as simply as I can, but I agree that scripture says simple physical descent doesn't qualify someone as "Israel" just as all of Abraham's children weren't chosen, only those through Isaac. That's why the Arabs and the Jews have been fighting since then. I also agree that the true "Israel of God" is in Christ; there's no circumcision or uncircumcision in Christ; that we of the nations have been grafted in as wild branches through Christ; and that the cultivated branches cast out will be grafted back in again. I think that will happen when the Jews see Christ the next time knowing who he is as they're regenerated spiritually. I think believers now, mostly of the nations, are figuratively a new creation but will literally be so when we're snatched away and Christ meets us in the air. I think all our blessings through Christ are spiritually connected to Israel, but theirs is the promised land of the kingdom of the heavens in Jerusalem ruled by Christ while we've been told of a celestial destiny for the eons. Like I said before, I realize this isn't the popular belief. I don't want to cause any tension. I'm just saying what I believe these days. I try to keep an open mind, and I've changed what I believed over the years. That's how I came to believe in universal reconciliation. Anyway, I have no beef with those who interpret scripture differently about these things or anything else. I just humbly offer my opinion to the discussion. 

[Psalm91:4]

I think the Jews will get their promised kingdom of the heavens on earth ruled by Jesus in Jerusalem in the coming eon, but they've never looked forward to a celestial destiny. I think it's only those of us in the body of Christ who are mostly of the nations who have been told about the celestial realm.

(partial quote)

Hi Tom,

  So you are talking about the 1,000 year reign (the coming eon) ?  That the Jews will get their promised kingdom on earth?  If yes, do you think only they will be ruling and reigning/partaking however with the Lord Jesus on earth then? 
  I'm not at all saying I disagree, however if the above is true, then where will the body of Christ or the bride be during that 1,000 year time period?  Elsewhere?   Somewhere in the celestial realm?
  The reason I ask is because I don't want to be anywhere that He is not.  If He is on earth during the 1000 years, I want to be there with Him, too.   :Book:

[Tom]

Scripture says we'll always be with the Lord when we're snatched away (1 Thessalonians 4:17). So I believe we'll be with him wherever he is, and he will be ruling the universe not just the earthly kingdom of the heavens in Jerusalem. I think time and space will be perceived and navigated differently when we're immortalized in spiritual bodies. I don't think the ecclesia, the body of Christ, will be subject to the Hebrew law of Israel at that time. The "bride" is something that I have a different concept about than is popular here. I believe the bride of the Lamb will be New Jerusalem descended out of heaven (Revelation 21:2-9).

http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreWeTheBrideOfTheLamb.html

[Psalm91:4]

Thanks, Tom.  Very exciting times ahead!  :dsunny:

I do trust whatever He has planned will be wonderful....and I wish He would return today.  I too believe we will be taken up and changed in the blink of an eye.  Not clear on what happens immediately after that, though. Does He then bring us with Him back to the earth for 1,000 years?  -given that we will be navigating time and space differently in our immortal bodies.  As long as we will always be with the Lord, I won`t worry too much  :)  about the specifics. 

But inquiring minds want to know!   :clock:

[rosered]

  This has been an awesome    thread!!!
  Love the comments and  witness to Gods glory    and the many scriptures shared  !!

I would just like to say , I can remember being  just flesh and blood and human  and feeling the emptiness   of lack    in my youth  and that something was missing  in life to give it meaning and purpose       and though  I went out into the world like the prodigal son    and came back to sorrow of heart and  emptiness
   Than was the measure of faith   given by the Father  to seek and  find His   desire ,  it was the ''born again '' experience to me personally   
becoming aware of  being more than just flesh and blood , but a spirit in dire need of Gods presence in my own life    , I believe many come  this way and it was God in His mercy   that gave Christ though the HOLY SPIRIT  to comfort and teach me  about the things above and its still an on going process  of  completeness in   HIM , the Masters hand and power to do it for all of us

[Tom]

I'm aware of information about an ancient custom of people going out of a town to welcome and escort important guests back into town as an argument that believers will meet Christ in the air and immediately return with him. This is based on the Greek "apantesin" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 translated as "meet."

"Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

But I think it's kind of strange that we would be changed so much that gravity wouldn't hold us anymore just to come right back down to earth.

"The Lord will be rescuing me from every wicked work and will be saving me for His celestial kingdom: to Whom be glory for the eons of the eons. Amen!" (2 Timothy 4:18)

That seems to indicate that there's a "celestial" kingdom. I think the celestial and earthy realms could be united which would eliminate any confusion about where we're going to be. 

The idea of having spiritual bodies when we're vivified is interesting and makes me wonder about how it will be to perceive everything spiritually rather than through our soulful senses like we do now in the flesh. I'm wondering if or how we'll be different than "spirits" when we're changed to spiritual bodies. When the resurrected Christ appeared to the disciples, he seemed to indicate that he wasn't a "spirit," but maybe that's just because he appeared with his fleshly body so they could perceive him (Luke 24:39). I think whatever will happen, it will be an amazing experience!

[rosered]

 

The idea of having spiritual bodies when we're vivified is interesting and makes me wonder about how it will be to perceive everything spiritually rather than through our soulful senses like we do now in the flesh. I'm wondering if or how we'll be different than "spirits" when we're changed to spiritual bodies. When the resurrected Christ appeared to the disciples, he seemed to indicate that he wasn't a "spirit," but maybe that's just because he appeared with his fleshly body so they could perceive him (Luke 24:39). I think whatever will happen, it will be an amazing experience!

So Do I Tom, so do I      !!!   :dsunny:


I have considered Jesus in His glorified  body      His prayer in John 17     that after the Cross ............

  4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do.

5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
and than there is 1  Corinthians 15    that describes    glorified bodies

[marie glen]

....Anyway, I have no beef with those who interpret scripture differently about these things or anything else. I just humbly offer my opinion to the discussion.

That is awesome, Tom and I think it's a great attitude all christians should have! :smile:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: The key here is it's "born from ABOVE", not born again, a mistranslation. Nicodemus even said how can I go back into my mother's womb and Jesus did not correct the thought, but rather enforced it by saying that what is impossible with man IS possible with God.

Our mother is New Jerusalem, the displayed finished work of wisdom, who was also with Him when He created everything, we are told. She was by His side, let us make man in OUR image, male AND female created He them, for this cause shall a man leave father and MOTHER and cleave unto his wife. He did leave father and mother to cleave unto His wife. Together they are creating a new creation man, and a city (multiple habitations of Him). My  :2c: Blessings....

[rosered]

:cloud9: The key here is it's "born from ABOVE", not born again, a mistranslation. Nicodemus even said how can I go back into my mother's womb and Jesus did not correct the thought, but rather enforced it by saying that what is impossible with man IS possible with God.

Our mother is New Jerusalem, the displayed finished work of wisdom, who was also with Him when He created everything, we are told. She was by His side, let us make man in OUR image, male AND female created He them, for this cause shall a man leave father and MOTHER and cleave unto his wife. He did leave father and mother to cleave unto His wife. Together they are creating a new creation man, and a city (multiple habitations of Him). My  :2c: Blessings....

  Amen   Cardinal !!!!    wisdom world  is  foolishness to God  1COR 3


19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God.

For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS."...

stinking thinking   is the stench of death not Life

the power of life and death is in the tongue , out of the heart the mouth speaks .....


Proverbs 18 20With the fruit of a man's mouth his stomach will be satisfied;

He will be satisfied with the product of his lips.


21Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit.


22He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD....

Do  not be deceived  God cannot be  mocked 


Gal 6   6The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him.


7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.


8For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,


but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

[joeteekay]

I, like others, have, for a long time, pondered the meaning of the word "born" in the New Testament.  Too many scriptures seem to contradict about the meaning of this word.  Once again the topic has come up in this thread started by Caffus.  I am studying this more thoroughly than I ever have and would like to share some of what I found. Born, born again, born from above, begotten, and other related words - all these words are translated by the translators into what they thought the Greek word gennao (G1080 - γεννάω) and its variants such as (G313 - ἀναγεννάω) mean in English.  Comparing various translations concerning this subject, it appears many of the scriptures contradict each other.  BUT, scripture does not contradict.

Unfortunately most translations are inconsistent, IMO.  Why?  Because of the difficulty in dealing with the aorist tense (specially that of "gennao") in the Greek. This is what the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer 2.1 basic - Help  (www.scriptures4all.org) link has to say concerning this difficulty, and there are other biblical scholars making the same points:

"THE Greek Aorist tense cannot be consistently translated into English, and especially not by the English present." This seems to be the usual attitude of scholars toward the attempt to render each Greek tense consistently, and to use the English present as a constant equivalent of the Greek indefinite, in the CONCORDANT VERSION.
We fully concur in this opinion, from the standpoint of traditional Greek grammar. If we include under the term "Aorist," and "second Aorist" all the forms usually so designated, it is impossible not only to translate consistently, but it is also impossible to give a rational reason for any rendering. Translation will be based on individual bias, and thus the Scriptures are conformed to fallible human interpretation.
The consideration of the nouns and adjectives did not present many serious difficulties. The Greek verb, which tradition had invested with almost unsuperable difficulties, required a great deal of preliminary analysis and dissection before it finally yielded up its complex structure. Certain forms of the verb were found to contain within themselves invariable signs of time or tense.
Prof. Robertson has this to say regarding the translation of the Aorist into English: "The Greek Aorist ind., as can be readily seen, is not the exact equivalent of any tense in any other language. It has nuances all its own, many of them difficult, or well nigh impossible to reproduce in English.
Some conception of the difficulty of the problem before us is evident from the fact that Greek is proverbially one of the most difficult of languages, the verb is the most complex and elaborate part of Greek grammar, and of the verb the one unsolvable riddle has been the aorist."


Thus we should be wary of the way the Greek word gennao is translated and consider the nuances of the word and the context in which it is used to properly comprehend the most likely meaning.  There is inconsistency in the translation of gennao, sometimes its rendered "born" and sometimes "begotten" even within the same version.

Also, the verb gennao can be translated in one of many forms, depending on the structure of the verb and its context 

Personal biases most definitely enter into what is perceived to be an accurate rendering

Depending on context and the form of the aorist verb tense, it is translated as:

was born, being born, being generated, is being born, being generated, were born, were begotten, may be being begotten, to be begotten, one having been begotten, having been begotten, having been born, may be being begotten, may be being born, have been generated, have been born, has been begotten, has been generated.

In English we have a separate meaning for born and another for begotten (conceived). that distinction is not clear with the Greek gennao (G1080 - γεννάω). Herein lies the problem!

I plan to post more on this as a new thread eventually  under word studies. In the mean time, here are a but two examples of the differences in translating gennao (G1080 - γεννάω) and its variants.

Here are 2 examples among others that show the problem:

EXAMPLE ONE:

(KJV) Joh_3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (G1080) again, he cannot see the kingdom of God

(CLV) John 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten (G1080)  anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God."

So which is it born or begotten?  They are not the same in meaning in English.  Jesus said in these following verses:

Joh 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Jesus plainly says, when one is born of the spirit, they ARE spirit, they are no longer flesh and blood.  Inserting the word begotten instead of born just does not convey these scriptures accurately.

Being born of the spirit is like the wind - invisible and powerful, just like God!

EXAMPLE TWO

(KJV) 1Jn_3:9  Whosoever is born (G1080) of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born (G1080) of God.

(CLV)   ) 1Jn_3:9  Everyone who is begotten (G1080)  of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten(G1080)  of God."

So is it born or begotten?. If we take it literally it means that one being born into the God family as a spirit being CANNOT sin.  An obvious truth!

There are just to many excuses offered by some translations to explain this verse by saying it means "does not continue in sin" or "does not practice sin". This is not in harmony with the actual Greek.

If we regard begotten as a correct word here, this scripture would contradict this one:

1Jn_1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

I know there are many different opinions on this topic, and I am not going to lose sleep over who is right or wrong. I for one tend to take the words of scripture as literal unless they make more sense as figurative.  In the two examples above the word born is better IMO.  Other places in scripture begotten is more appropriate.

If we wish to have the English word equivalent to gennao (G1080 - γεννάω) we would probably use the word generate or generated.  Here is the comment that the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer 2.1 basic has to say on this which uses the CLV translation:

The CGTS  (Concordant Greek Text Sublinear) is characterized by its uniformity, its exactitude and its vivid reflection of the Greek, and aims to be as nearly Greek as can be understood by an English reader

See the attachment which shows this.

More later.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[rosered]

So is it born or begotten?. If we take it literally it means that one being born into the God family as a spirit being CANNOT sin.  An obvious truth!

Hi Joe .
  I read your study    ,,,,

born =  new /babe    is  my  understanding  as  well
begotten is ,   one of its kind ,
  and love it  that it is the spiritual man inherits   the promises of God and  life
the flesh  profits nothing

[eaglesway]

I have to disagree.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

Same fellow who wrote John 3:3-8 wrote that.

John 3:3-8 describes the process of moving from a new believer to a mature disciple. Nowhere does Jesus say that in any literal sense that a person who is born again is not longer flesh and blood. IMO, He is clearly speaking metaphorically, of being converted, renewed, to spiritual life, and it is clear from the scriptures that Peter, Paul and John understood Him to mean that.

2 chapters earlier John tells us what it means to be born of God and he is consistent with that in his epistle(1 John), as is Peter in his 1 Pet).

But those that received him, to them he gave authority to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his Name,. John 1:12

This is clearly what John understood, as he writes in His epistle, that everyone who loves is born of God,.

Peter also understood Jesus in this way,

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Obeying the truth(word/water) through the spirit(spirit wind) unto love

Paul, while not using the term born from above says,

Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration(word/water) and renewing by the Holy Spirit(spirit/wind),

Unless you are born of the water(word) and the spirit(wind) you cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Both John and Peter understood what it means to be born of God. It is when a spirit is awakened to the truth of God,the word is implanted, the spirit of God germinates the seed in the heart, and love is shed abroad in our hearts. 1 John spends chapters defining this. The new commandment is love.

As to the person who is born of God cannot continue sinning.... I agree with the other interpretation because of the context both of 1 John and of 1 Peter 1:22.

John is speaking of the disposition to sin, not "not ever sinning", or being "a spirit being not having flesh and blood". A person who is born of God does not have a disposition to continue sinning, because of a new disposition towards loving.  John opens his epistle by letting us know that if we sin we have a propitiation for sin, and that if we confess our sins God will forgive and cleanse us, in order to prepare us for the understanding of the new commandment, which he spends the next three chapters explaining IS LOVE. Otherwise writing 1John 4:7- just a few verses after 1 John 3:9, makes no sense in context.

But really 1 Peter1:22 is the clincher here. He clearly says we HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN(born from above) by 1)obedience to the truth 2)from the spirit unto a fervent love. This is consistent with, "Everyone who loves is born of God." The person who is born from above is not sinning because they are loving.....they have a new disposition, there is a NEW CREATION, and that new creation is..... the children of God, born not of the will of the flesh or the will of man, but of God.

Begotten is just another way of saying born, it is a past participle of beget. If you look at the two words in a variety of dictionaries, you find- there is no difference in meaning. I wish translators would be consistent but in the KJV they were just being poetic, not implicating different meanings between the two words.

Almost all other versions just use born in every case.

John 3:8 describes the operation of the spirit in a mature disciple. It is like being on the wind. It gives no advance notice. It requires one to move as led in the moment by the voice of the Lord. "The birds of the air have nests, the foxes have holes, the son of man has nowhere to lay His head."

On the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came upon them like a rushing mighty wind. They began to move and act as Jesus had. He was multiplied in them and they were moving as He had moved- like the wind, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

"He that believes in me, out of His innermost being will gush fountains of living water". This He spoke of the Spirit that would be given to all who believed, but the Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified"(john somewhere)

Speaking of the Spirit as water is a metaphor for an element of characteristic. Life-giving, delivering refreshing, "Times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord(Acts 3). So is speaking of the Spirit as wind.

That's my understanding.  :2c: