Greetings

[Pig]

I think I got here by following Gary.  I have been using a Hebrew hermeneutic  for about 15 years, which I believe reveals the sensus plenior (SP) of the OT as it reproduces the exegesis of the NT authors.

Why am I here?
1. The thing that does not exist in SP, so far, is any mention of hell. So I am about to embark on a systematic study of the SP to see what comes of it.  I figured this forum would be a good source of references why you guys believe what you do.

2. You place the scriptures ahead of tradition even when unpopular. I share this priority.

3. The forum is heavily moderated, which I hope keeps conversations under control when I bounce things off of you, even though they may sound crazy at first.

One of the reasons that I may sound crazy is that the Hebrew hermeneutic has not been practiced in the church since about the time of Clement.  By the time of Augustine, all the Jewish Christians were pushed out of the church and Augustine proclaimed that the Septuagint was more reliable than the original Hebrew. The reformers kept Augustine's hermeneutic comprised of Greek logic, philosophy and rhetoric. 

I have observed that although you guys make great arguments, they are, none-the-less, Greek arguments using Greek logic, philosophy and rhetoric.  I am going to attempt to subject them to the Hebrew hermeneutic. 

I hold a very strong position on intellectual humility. I see seven layers of meaning spoken in four voices, in the scripture, which I believe are verifiable and reproducible, and used by the NT authors. Because of that, there is no way I can unpack everything the Bible has to say. I must consider it a privilege to learn something tomorrow that I don't know today.  (Yeah. I know that makes me sound like a crazy person.)

I consider Bible study a collaborative effort. The hermeneutic is Christo-centric.  Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him, and so the collaborative effort is to reveal him in all the scripture. Other issues are secondary. I don't so much as argue doctrine as to offer observations which are important to my understanding of doctrine.  One of the strange things I do is assume that the NT authors, and Jesus, spoke and thought in Hebrew. I often translate the Greek to Hebrew in order to better correlate it to the OT.

I hope to find new friends here, no matter how we might differ otherwise.

Bob

[Psalm91:4]

Hi Bob. :)

Nice to meet you and I look forward to your input. 

You`ve certainly peaked my interest, already!  Welcome.

Sue

[Pig]

Hi Sue, Thanks.

Perhaps I can tease you as well.  You are familiar with the parable of the mustard seed:

1. Who is the seed of the woman, and why is he the 'least of the seed'?
2. Grass was given to animals to eat, the herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing that men can eat?
3. When you have the first two, the third is easy. Who is the tree?
4. At Sychar, Jesus said that men worshiped on the mountain, but would worship in 'spirit and truth' if they had the faith of the seed, herb and tree... hmm.. If you know the answer to 1, 2, and 3, where do you worship God, and what must the sea be?   There is evidence that this is true in Genesis 1:2.

This is a great example of the Hebrew hermeneutic.   I know... I'm being nasty  ;)

[Searching_For_The_Truth]

Welcome to the Tent :welcome:

[Psalm91:4]

Oh boy....lol....it may be that there are some answers swimming around in me to your questions....probably incorrect, anyway.

Please allow me time to get back to this mainly because my grandchildren, for some strange reason, do not like it when I take any time away from them.  :)


So I shall be a pondering, in the meantime.

Till later...

Sue   

[greg]

Hi Sue, Thanks.

Perhaps I can tease you as well.  You are familiar with the parable of the mustard seed:

1. Who is the seed of the woman, and why is he the 'least of the seed'?
2. Grass was given to animals to eat, the herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing that men can eat?
3. When you have the first two, the third is easy. Who is the tree?
4. At Sychar, Jesus said that men worshiped on the mountain, but would worship in 'spirit and truth' if they had the faith of the seed, herb and tree... hmm.. If you know the answer to 1, 2, and 3, where do you worship God, and what must the sea be?   There is evidence that this is true in Genesis 1:2.

This is a great example of the Hebrew hermeneutic.   I know... I'm being nasty  ;)

I'll venture a perspective...

1a. In the example that word is plural. Cain, Able, Seth, etc.
1b. 'least of the seed' is a Hebraic wordplay. Compare zEaurya ("smallest") and zrEauna ("seeds").  To be the 'least of the seed' is a wordplay for 'the seed of the seed', or the foundation of all seed, the one true pattern or code.  One must be small to enter heaven.  As an earthly example, a fractal seed with its DNA is small, but it grows large and retains its character.

2. the word of the Creator. Recall Yahshua by the well in John 4.

3. the tree is the messiah Yahshua.  He is chosen to manifest the new earth and new heaven.  Heaven is  'where the birds will nest in the mustard tree'

4a. We worship the Creator in spirit.  To do so on earth we use our hearts -- they create electromagnetic waveforms that read like an aleph bet.  The Creator enjoys spiritual harmony in our hearts.

4b. The sea represents people and waves in the energetic sense.  Yahweh did this for a reason -- Genesis 1:6 and 1:10 -- hmym ("waters") in Genesis 1:2 were separated from ymym ("seas").

[Pig]

I'll venture a perspective...

1a. Cain, Able, Seth, etc.
1b. 'least of the seed' is a Hebraic wordplay. Compare zEaurya ("smallest") and zrEauna ("seeds").  To be the 'least of the seed' is a wordplay for 'the seed of the seed', or the foundation of all seed, the one true pattern or code.  One must be small to enter heaven.  A fractal seed with its DNA is small, but it grows large and retains its character.

2. the word of the Creator. Recall Yahshua by the well in John 4.

3. the tree is the messiah Yahshua.  He is chosen to manifest the new earth and new heaven.  Heaven is  'where the birds will nest in the mustard tree'

4a. We worship the Creator in spirit.  To do so on earth we use our hearts -- they creates electromagnetic waveform shapes that read like an aleph bet.  The Creator enjoys spiritual harmony in our hearts.

4b. The sea represents people and waves in the energetic sense.  See Genesis 1:6 and 1:10 -- hmym ("waters") in Genesis 1:2 were separated from ymym ("seas").

That sure is creative Greg.

The major feature of a Christo-centric interpretation is like the old joke: It sure sounds like a grey squirrel but I know the answer is Jesus  ;)

See Ge 3:15 for the seed of the woman who had a bruised heel. This is a prophecy of the virgin birth and that Christ would have a bruised heel.  Jacob had a withered thigh. These are shadows of Gethsemane where Jesus made his flesh 'limp' in order to be obedient to the Father.  His desire in the flesh was to not die. Jesus was the least of all the seed because he served us all by his death on the cross.  (He who would be greatest in the kingdom must be the servant of all.)  And incidentally, the Greek word for mustard sounds like (a pun)  'bruised in anger' in Hebrew.

OK.  I got you started.  Hint: Christo-centric

[Lazarus Short]

Welcome to the Tent!  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: Given your forum name, have you by chance read this:

[attachment deleted by admin]

[eaglesway]

I am looking forward to your perspectives. Welcome.

[Pig]

Welcome to the Tent!  :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: Given your forum name, have you by chance read this:

I haven't.  I have some large goats that I use for backpacking. The largest one is named Pig to confuse the grandchildren.  ;)

[littlesheep]

Making my first post!

I'm actually a return member. I do not believe universal salvation to be true, but neither do I care to argue it. I just wanted to come back to send a quick message to an old acquaintance  :)

Peace to you all!

[littlesheep]

P.S. Pig, I found your perspective very interesting. While there are many concepts and passages that lead me to believe that not all are saved, here is one in particular and I'm curious at your reading of it? It sounds like an odd prayer for Paul if he believed that "all" are saved?

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom 10:1)

[eaglesway]

Paul's intense desire was for all his brothers and sisters of Israel to embrace the glory of salvation through Christ and particpation in the kingdom of God and the outpouring of the Spirit. That intense desire for Israles salvation is accompanied by an assurance that they will eventually all be saved.

Ro 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,

"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."

God executed His word on the earth quickly and Israel, as a nation, was destroyed and the Iraelites that remained- the remnant, wer driven from the land or were incorporated into the kingdom through submission to the Lordship of Christ.

Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

As a result of rejecting their salvation the unbelieving Israelites are locked out of the kingdom- until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This is not an eternal banishment, however-

11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 

God had a purpose in their hardening, and it is being fulfilled in this age, yet Paull insists ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, and indeed- ALL MEN

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED; just as it is written,

"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
2 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."

28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.



Paul speaks of the mystery in many places, but In Ephesians he goes into a lot of detail about it, beginning in Chapter 1 with the "administration suitable to the fulness of times"(a plan executed over generations and ages, in which we stand only in one of many)

In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

James referred to us as, "a kind f first fruits of His creation" and Paul goes on to tell us in Eph 2

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; andthat not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

In the ages to come God will show the surpassing riches of His kindness towards us, the firstfruits, as we participate in the further gathering of all things into one in Christ

2Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God....

Finally, Paul assures us that ultimately all will be reconciled ...

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

The same all things He created, the same all things over which He is pre-eminent- this is the same all things which the Father will reconcile to Himself by the blood of Jesus' cross.

"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"

"Behold, I make all things new"!


Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.

[littlesheep]

Hello eaglesway, thank you for your thoughtful reply.

In that passage, I don't see Paul desiring them to "embrace the glory of salvation" and "participation in the kingdom." I hear him pray for their salvation.

I will simply share with you a very personal moment when I was last a member here, searching for myself.

I read that passage prayerfully during morning reading time and fell to my knees weeping, feeling a huge weight of conviction on my spirit. I realized that Paul was praying for their salvation, yet it had been a very long time since I had prayed for the salvation of my own loved ones. I realized that by neglecting to pray for their salvation, I was neglecting a work that God has given me to do.

If Paul prayed for the salvation of others, shouldn't I be praying for the salvation of others? Shouldn't we all? If I don't pray for the salvation of my own loved ones, who will? If you don't pray for the salvation of your loved ones, who will?

Nothing could be more important and I know without a doubt that I need to be praying every day for the salvation of the people God places before me and it is a sin if I do not.

I will leave doctrine and apologetics to other people. I simply know what was given to me and I will never cease to pray for the salvation of others.

[eaglesway]

Yes, I see your point. I would like to ask you to consider another perspective(just be hypothetical :o). Salvation is not "escape from hell". It is connection to Christ and participation in the kingdom of God.

The word, saved, is "sozo" in the Greek. It means to be "healed, delivered, made whole".

When we hear the word "saved" in contemporary American Christianity, we hear "saved from eternal torment". There is nothing in the context of the scriptures to justify that perception. It is religious training and tradition that causes it. For many centuries disagreeing with it would get you sent straight there(execution) and disgreeing with it can still get you ostracized, so there is a strong re-inforcement to hear the word thru tradition, and fear of re-examination- even as there was in Jesus' day and during the early centuries of the church.

So- I agree with you that Paul is praying for them to be saved. I just do not believe that he is praying for them to saved from hell- but rather saved into the kingdom.

The emphasis on "saved from hell" is not really consistent with the biblical usage of the word. Paul says we "were saved", we "are being saved" and we "will be saved".

My point is that Paul says- and this is clearly and absolutley beyond any disputation- "So ALL Israel will be saved". What else could that mean besides what it clearly says in any paradigm? So iit gets rationalized or ignored by people who in all other issues insist on literal acceptance of clear statements of scripture.

When taken in context with the following verses (God has shut up all in unbelief so that He might have mercy upon ALL.....For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things) it is clear to me that is means just what is says. All Isarael will be saved, because ALL have at one time been enemies upon which at some point God has had mercy, and God will eventually have mercy on ALL, because it is He who shut them up in disobedience in order to lead them to mercy.

Roman 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

[jabcat]

yes, to the best of my knowledge (and it's not what Gary believes) most here don't believe all are already saved/ in the kingdom - but that in the ages to come they will be.   :2c:

[jabcat]

hi littlesheep.  if you are who I think you are, I was sorry to see you go.  Even though I believe (could be wrong) you believe in eternal death, you were conversational, not having a bad spirit of arguing, etc...anyway, if you're someone else, believe something else, and have a bad spirit of arguing, then never mind what I just said   :laugh:    :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

yes, to the best of my knowledge (and it's not what Gary believes) most here don't believe all are already saved/ in the kingdom - but that in the ages to come they will be.   :2c:

Exactly. As a believer in ultimate reconciliation, or the salvation of all, I do not believe anyone just gets a free pass to violate the word of God with willful intent and disregard to the consequences promised by the prophets and the apostles and our Lord. The only way to receive the benefit of reconciliation is to repent before the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is great benefit in responding to the gospel in this life, and great loss to be suffered for rejecting it, and God knows the secrets of the hearts and they will all come to light on the Day when all stand before Him. He will know who was ignorant, who was innocent, who was corrupt, who was a hypocrite, and He will do justly and mercifully, whatever He has ordained. And it wont matter what we speculated about it or how we tried to clearly define things God has purposely obscured, seen through the glass darkly so to speak. But His justice and His mercy will both be served.

Whatever the exact nature and duration of aionian kolassis(correction) and aionian pyr(fire) is- we are not told in detail, only in principle, when all the dust has cleared, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." "Every adversary will be subject." "All things will be gathered into one in Christ", "God will be all in all"

[marie glen]

P.S. Pig, I found your perspective very interesting. While there are many concepts and passages that lead me to believe that not all are saved, here is one in particular and I'm curious at your reading of it? It sounds like an odd prayer for Paul if he believed that "all" are saved?

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom 10:1)

Even if all will come to repentance and reconciliation, the first resurrection still far exceeds the second one where they will rise "still in their sins" and they will have missed the marriage supper and the millenium. What horror, actually, to stand before the radiant Most Holy and Almighty God still in ones' imperfection and sins..

..also, I believe, explains how Paul could wish to be "cut off" in their place.. not actually wishing to perish (or worse)
  :smile: God bless!

[marie glen]

...when all the dust has cleared, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." "Every adversary will be subject." "All things will be gathered into one in Christ", "God will be all in all"

..."when all the dust has cleared" Love that line!

[eaglesway]

It is clearing day by day :o)

[Pig]

Herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing men can eat?

Hint 2:  Mt 26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

The greatest thing men can eat is the body of Christ. He is the bruised seed and the great herb.

What is the tree?  ;)

[eaglesway]

Tree of life. Fruit of the Spirit.

Breadfruit? :o)

[Pig]

Good guess... no cigar  ;)

The tree is the cross.. 

OK... The seed is Christ as the bruised seed of the woman, the Herb is Christ since the herb was given to man to eat and the greatest thing we can eat is the body of Christ.

The Tree is the cross. 

The birds eat the seed (the promise of the messiah) or the flesh (the body of Christ). They are Israel and the church.  They fly (move, live) in the air/spirit and rest in the cross.

Jesus told the woman at Sychar that they worshiped on the mountain but would worship in spirit and truth. 
If we have the faith of Christ (the seed, herb and cross) we will worship in spirit and truth (sea ).  (Move the mountain to the sea).

The word for 'waters' in Genesis is מים  where the מ represents the Father (Spirit), the ם represents the Son (Truth), and the י represents a new creation. The new creation is 'in' the Father and the son, or 'in Spirit and Truth'.

These symbols are reusable in other places of the scripture.

This is a Chrsto-centric interpretation using the Hebrew hermeneutic.  The scripture speaks for scripture. All of the images come out of other places of the scripture.

[eaglesway]

the cross and the tree of life are the same thing ;o)