I think I got here by following Gary. I have been using a Hebrew hermeneutic for about 15 years, which I believe reveals the sensus plenior (SP) of the OT as it reproduces the exegesis of the NT authors.
Why am I here?
1. The thing that does not exist in SP, so far, is any mention of hell. So I am about to embark on a systematic study of the SP to see what comes of it. I figured this forum would be a good source of references why you guys believe what you do.
2. You place the scriptures ahead of tradition even when unpopular. I share this priority.
3. The forum is heavily moderated, which I hope keeps conversations under control when I bounce things off of you, even though they may sound crazy at first.
One of the reasons that I may sound crazy is that the Hebrew hermeneutic has not been practiced in the church since about the time of Clement. By the time of Augustine, all the Jewish Christians were pushed out of the church and Augustine proclaimed that the Septuagint was more reliable than the original Hebrew. The reformers kept Augustine's hermeneutic comprised of Greek logic, philosophy and rhetoric.
I have observed that although you guys make great arguments, they are, none-the-less, Greek arguments using Greek logic, philosophy and rhetoric. I am going to attempt to subject them to the Hebrew hermeneutic.
I hold a very strong position on intellectual humility. I see seven layers of meaning spoken in four voices, in the scripture, which I believe are verifiable and reproducible, and used by the NT authors. Because of that, there is no way I can unpack everything the Bible has to say. I must consider it a privilege to learn something tomorrow that I don't know today. (Yeah. I know that makes me sound like a crazy person.)
I consider Bible study a collaborative effort. The hermeneutic is Christo-centric. Jesus said that all the scriptures spoke of him, and so the collaborative effort is to reveal him in all the scripture. Other issues are secondary. I don't so much as argue doctrine as to offer observations which are important to my understanding of doctrine. One of the strange things I do is assume that the NT authors, and Jesus, spoke and thought in Hebrew. I often translate the Greek to Hebrew in order to better correlate it to the OT.
I hope to find new friends here, no matter how we might differ otherwise.
Bob
Hi Bob. :)
Nice to meet you and I look forward to your input.
You`ve certainly peaked my interest, already! Welcome.
Sue
Hi Sue, Thanks.
Perhaps I can tease you as well. You are familiar with the parable of the mustard seed:
1. Who is the seed of the woman, and why is he the 'least of the seed'?
2. Grass was given to animals to eat, the herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing that men can eat?
3. When you have the first two, the third is easy. Who is the tree?
4. At Sychar, Jesus said that men worshiped on the mountain, but would worship in 'spirit and truth' if they had the faith of the seed, herb and tree... hmm.. If you know the answer to 1, 2, and 3, where do you worship God, and what must the sea be? There is evidence that this is true in Genesis 1:2.
This is a great example of the Hebrew hermeneutic. I know... I'm being nasty ;)
Welcome to the Tent :welcome:
Oh boy....lol....it may be that there are some answers swimming around in me to your questions....probably incorrect, anyway.
Please allow me time to get back to this mainly because my grandchildren, for some strange reason, do not like it when I take any time away from them. :)
So I shall be a pondering, in the meantime.
Till later...
Sue
Quote from: Pig on March 15, 2015, 01:06:35 AM
Hi Sue, Thanks.
Perhaps I can tease you as well. You are familiar with the parable of the mustard seed:
1. Who is the seed of the woman, and why is he the 'least of the seed'?
2. Grass was given to animals to eat, the herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing that men can eat?
3. When you have the first two, the third is easy. Who is the tree?
4. At Sychar, Jesus said that men worshiped on the mountain, but would worship in 'spirit and truth' if they had the faith of the seed, herb and tree... hmm.. If you know the answer to 1, 2, and 3, where do you worship God, and what must the sea be? There is evidence that this is true in Genesis 1:2.
This is a great example of the Hebrew hermeneutic. I know... I'm being nasty ;)
I'll venture a perspective...
1a. In the example that word is plural. Cain, Able, Seth, etc.
1b. 'least of the seed' is a Hebraic wordplay. Compare
zEaurya ("smallest") and
zrEauna ("seeds"). To be the 'least of the seed' is a wordplay for 'the seed of the seed', or the foundation of all seed, the one true pattern or code. One must be small to enter heaven. As an earthly example, a fractal seed with its DNA is small, but it grows large and retains its character.
2. the word of the Creator. Recall Yahshua by the well in John 4.
3. the tree is the messiah Yahshua. He is chosen to manifest the new earth and new heaven. Heaven is 'where the birds will nest in the mustard tree'
4a. We worship the Creator in spirit. To do so on earth we use our hearts -- they create electromagnetic waveforms that read like an aleph bet. The Creator enjoys spiritual harmony in our hearts.
4b. The sea represents people and waves in the energetic sense. Yahweh did this for a reason -- Genesis 1:6 and 1:10 --
hmym ("waters") in Genesis 1:2 were separated from
ymym ("seas").
Quote from: greg on March 15, 2015, 02:57:07 AM
I'll venture a perspective...
1a. Cain, Able, Seth, etc.
1b. 'least of the seed' is a Hebraic wordplay. Compare zEaurya ("smallest") and zrEauna ("seeds"). To be the 'least of the seed' is a wordplay for 'the seed of the seed', or the foundation of all seed, the one true pattern or code. One must be small to enter heaven. A fractal seed with its DNA is small, but it grows large and retains its character.
2. the word of the Creator. Recall Yahshua by the well in John 4.
3. the tree is the messiah Yahshua. He is chosen to manifest the new earth and new heaven. Heaven is 'where the birds will nest in the mustard tree'
4a. We worship the Creator in spirit. To do so on earth we use our hearts -- they creates electromagnetic waveform shapes that read like an aleph bet. The Creator enjoys spiritual harmony in our hearts.
4b. The sea represents people and waves in the energetic sense. See Genesis 1:6 and 1:10 -- hmym ("waters") in Genesis 1:2 were separated from ymym ("seas").
That sure is creative Greg.
The major feature of a Christo-centric interpretation is like the old joke: It sure sounds like a grey squirrel but I know the answer is Jesus ;)
See Ge 3:15 for the seed of the woman who had a bruised heel. This is a prophecy of the virgin birth and that Christ would have a bruised heel. Jacob had a withered thigh. These are shadows of Gethsemane where Jesus made his flesh 'limp' in order to be obedient to the Father. His desire in the flesh was to not die. Jesus was the least of all the seed because he served us all by his death on the cross. (He who would be greatest in the kingdom must be the servant of all.) And incidentally, the Greek word for mustard sounds like (a pun) 'bruised in anger' in Hebrew.
OK. I got you started. Hint: Christo-centric
Welcome to the Tent! :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: Given your forum name, have you by chance read this:
[attachment deleted by admin]
I am looking forward to your perspectives. Welcome.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 15, 2015, 07:50:06 AM
Welcome to the Tent! :friendstu: :gimmefive: :friendstu: Given your forum name, have you by chance read this:
I haven't. I have some large goats that I use for backpacking. The largest one is named Pig to confuse the grandchildren. ;)
Making my first post!
I'm actually a return member. I do not believe universal salvation to be true, but neither do I care to argue it. I just wanted to come back to send a quick message to an old acquaintance :)
Peace to you all!
P.S. Pig, I found your perspective very interesting. While there are many concepts and passages that lead me to believe that not all are saved, here is one in particular and I'm curious at your reading of it? It sounds like an odd prayer for Paul if he believed that "all" are saved?
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom 10:1)
Paul's intense desire was for all his brothers and sisters of Israel to embrace the glory of salvation through Christ and particpation in the kingdom of God and the outpouring of the Spirit. That intense desire for Israles salvation is accompanied by an assurance that they will eventually all be saved.
Ro 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly." 29 And just as Isaiah foretold,
"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left to us a posterity,
We would have become like Sodom, and would have resembled Gomorrah."
God executed His word on the earth quickly and Israel, as a nation, was destroyed and the Iraelites that remained- the remnant, wer driven from the land or were incorporated into the kingdom through submission to the Lordship of Christ.
Rom 11:1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
As a result of rejecting their salvation the unbelieving Israelites are locked out of the kingdom- until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This is not an eternal banishment, however-
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!
God had a purpose in their hardening, and it is being fulfilled in this age, yet Paull insists ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, and indeed- ALL MEN
Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and So ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED; just as it is written,
"The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob."
2 "This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins."
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up ALL in disobedience so that He may show mercy to ALL.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
Paul speaks of the mystery in many places, but In Ephesians he goes into a lot of detail about it, beginning in Chapter 1 with the "administration suitable to the fulness of times"(a plan executed over generations and ages, in which we stand only in one of many)
In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
James referred to us as, "a kind f first fruits of His creation" and Paul goes on to tell us in Eph 2
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; andthat not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
In the ages to come God will show the surpassing riches of His kindness towards us, the firstfruits, as we participate in the further gathering of all things into one in Christ
2Cor 5:18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God....
Finally, Paul assures us that ultimately all will be reconciled ...
Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
The same all things He created, the same all things over which He is pre-eminent- this is the same all things which the Father will reconcile to Himself by the blood of Jesus' cross.
"If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me"
"Behold, I make all things new"!
Acts 3:19 Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen.
Hello eaglesway, thank you for your thoughtful reply.
In that passage, I don't see Paul desiring them to "embrace the glory of salvation" and "participation in the kingdom." I hear him pray for their salvation.
I will simply share with you a very personal moment when I was last a member here, searching for myself.
I read that passage prayerfully during morning reading time and fell to my knees weeping, feeling a huge weight of conviction on my spirit. I realized that Paul was praying for their salvation, yet it had been a very long time since I had prayed for the salvation of my own loved ones. I realized that by neglecting to pray for their salvation, I was neglecting a work that God has given me to do.
If Paul prayed for the salvation of others, shouldn't I be praying for the salvation of others? Shouldn't we all? If I don't pray for the salvation of my own loved ones, who will? If you don't pray for the salvation of your loved ones, who will?
Nothing could be more important and I know without a doubt that I need to be praying every day for the salvation of the people God places before me and it is a sin if I do not.
I will leave doctrine and apologetics to other people. I simply know what was given to me and I will never cease to pray for the salvation of others.
Yes, I see your point. I would like to ask you to consider another perspective(just be hypothetical :o). Salvation is not "escape from hell". It is connection to Christ and participation in the kingdom of God.
The word, saved, is "sozo" in the Greek. It means to be "healed, delivered, made whole".
When we hear the word "saved" in contemporary American Christianity, we hear "saved from eternal torment". There is nothing in the context of the scriptures to justify that perception. It is religious training and tradition that causes it. For many centuries disagreeing with it would get you sent straight there(execution) and disgreeing with it can still get you ostracized, so there is a strong re-inforcement to hear the word thru tradition, and fear of re-examination- even as there was in Jesus' day and during the early centuries of the church.
So- I agree with you that Paul is praying for them to be saved. I just do not believe that he is praying for them to saved from hell- but rather saved into the kingdom.
The emphasis on "saved from hell" is not really consistent with the biblical usage of the word. Paul says we "were saved", we "are being saved" and we "will be saved".
My point is that Paul says- and this is clearly and absolutley beyond any disputation- "So ALL Israel will be saved". What else could that mean besides what it clearly says in any paradigm? So iit gets rationalized or ignored by people who in all other issues insist on literal acceptance of clear statements of scripture.
When taken in context with the following verses (God has shut up all in unbelief so that He might have mercy upon ALL.....For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things) it is clear to me that is means just what is says. All Isarael will be saved, because ALL have at one time been enemies upon which at some point God has had mercy, and God will eventually have mercy on ALL, because it is He who shut them up in disobedience in order to lead them to mercy.
Roman 8:19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
yes, to the best of my knowledge (and it's not what Gary believes) most here don't believe all are already saved/ in the kingdom - but that in the ages to come they will be. :2c:
hi littlesheep. if you are who I think you are, I was sorry to see you go. Even though I believe (could be wrong) you believe in eternal death, you were conversational, not having a bad spirit of arguing, etc...anyway, if you're someone else, believe something else, and have a bad spirit of arguing, then never mind what I just said :laugh: :Peace2:
Quote from: jabcat on March 16, 2015, 12:11:21 AM
yes, to the best of my knowledge (and it's not what Gary believes) most here don't believe all are already saved/ in the kingdom - but that in the ages to come they will be. :2c:
Exactly. As a believer in ultimate reconciliation, or the salvation of all, I do not believe anyone just gets a free pass to violate the word of God with willful intent and disregard to the consequences promised by the prophets and the apostles and our Lord. The only way to receive the benefit of reconciliation is to repent before the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is great benefit in responding to the gospel in this life, and great loss to be suffered for rejecting it, and God knows the secrets of the hearts and they will all come to light on the Day when all stand before Him. He will know who was ignorant, who was innocent, who was corrupt, who was a hypocrite, and He will do justly and mercifully, whatever He has ordained. And it wont matter what we speculated about it or how we tried to clearly define things God has purposely obscured, seen through the glass darkly so to speak. But His justice and His mercy will both be served.
Whatever the exact nature and duration of aionian kolassis(correction) and aionian pyr(fire) is- we are not told in detail, only in principle, when all the dust has cleared, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." "Every adversary will be subject." "All things will be gathered into one in Christ", "God will be all in all"
Quote from: littlesheep on March 15, 2015, 07:38:07 PM
P.S. Pig, I found your perspective very interesting. While there are many concepts and passages that lead me to believe that not all are saved, here is one in particular and I'm curious at your reading of it? It sounds like an odd prayer for Paul if he believed that "all" are saved?
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Rom 10:1)
Even if all will come to repentance and reconciliation, the first resurrection still far exceeds the second one where they will rise "still in their sins" and they will have missed the marriage supper and the millenium. What horror, actually, to stand before the radiant Most Holy and Almighty God still in ones' imperfection and sins..
..also, I believe, explains how Paul could wish to be "cut off" in their place.. not actually wishing to perish (or worse)
:smile: God bless!
Quote from: eaglesway on March 16, 2015, 06:12:54 AM
...when all the dust has cleared, "every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." "Every adversary will be subject." "All things will be gathered into one in Christ", "God will be all in all"
..."
when all the dust has cleared" Love that line!
It is clearing day by day :o)
Herbs were given to men to eat. What is the greatest thing men can eat?
Hint 2: Mt 26:26 ¶ And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
The greatest thing men can eat is the body of Christ. He is the bruised seed and the great herb.
What is the tree? ;)
Tree of life. Fruit of the Spirit.
Breadfruit? :o)
Good guess... no cigar ;)
The tree is the cross..
OK... The seed is Christ as the bruised seed of the woman, the Herb is Christ since the herb was given to man to eat and the greatest thing we can eat is the body of Christ.
The Tree is the cross.
The birds eat the seed (the promise of the messiah) or the flesh (the body of Christ). They are Israel and the church. They fly (move, live) in the air/spirit and rest in the cross.
Jesus told the woman at Sychar that they worshiped on the mountain but would worship in spirit and truth.
If we have the faith of Christ (the seed, herb and cross) we will worship in spirit and truth (sea ). (Move the mountain to the sea).
The word for 'waters' in Genesis is מים where the מ represents the Father (Spirit), the ם represents the Son (Truth), and the י represents a new creation. The new creation is 'in' the Father and the son, or 'in Spirit and Truth'.
These symbols are reusable in other places of the scripture.
This is a Chrsto-centric interpretation using the Hebrew hermeneutic. The scripture speaks for scripture. All of the images come out of other places of the scripture.
the cross and the tree of life are the same thing ;o)
At the cross Jesus showed us, "No greater love has a man thn this, than to lay down his life for a friend."
John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world."
Eating from the tree of life is living in the way of Jesus,
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
All through the scriptures the tree of knowledge is the chaff/tare/goat
The tree of life is the humility of Christ laying down his life, those who eat the fruit of the tree of life, enter aionian zoe(eternal life).
John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."
As we break that bread, we become one.......
"Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life"
"I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Quote from: eaglesway on March 17, 2015, 10:00:27 AM
the cross and the tree of life are the same thing ;o)
Yep. I usually resolve things forward to the cross, since Paul said that he chose to know nothing but Christ and him crucified, and that the preaching of the cross was foolishness to those who are perishing.
Thats a good resolve :o)
Hi Bob !!
Enjoying your posts!! :dsunny:
MUCH BLESSINGS !!! Rose :icon_flower:
Ok.... I've been hanging around a while, and tried not to be too much of a heretic. This is one of the most civilized forums on the net, and I appreciate it.
Although I am not posting a bunch, I am attempting to understand. I am not yet connected because we think in different wavelengths ;)
I shared the Mustard seed as a demonstration of how different of a conclusion the Hebrew hermeneutic can provide from the Greek one.
I follow the reasoning for UR. The reason I don't find them satisfactory is not in the arguments, but in the Greek logic and rhetoric. The Greek methods do not produce truth. They pit one opinion against another and the result is a battle of wits using Greek rhetorical invention and persuasion. The one who is most persuasive wins, and since people have differing opinions on who is most persuasive, the issue is not resolved.
Many of the answers here impose a framework theology on individual questions, where the framework is the answer. This is no different from form the non-UR folks who simply impose a different framework theology. It is very difficult to not do so. The practice defines the issue away, without answering it. It is a convenient way to solidify one's own position, as a triage for real issues for the individual.
I do it with many of the skeptic questions and many of the apparent contradictions. Yeshua is not Emmanuel, how does it fulfill prophecy? I brush it aside because I know the answer, it is not an issue to me. But saying to someone else, you just don't understand Hebrew, doesn't really answer the question for them. Or worse, as they say in the Monte Python skit, "Contradiction is not argument... Yes it is... No it isn't". ;)
So I am concluding that I must collect and classify the scriptures so that I understand what they all say.
These are things that I am fairly certain of (my framework theology):
1. God created because it pleased him. I do not accept the Augustinian God who has no passion.
2. We live in quantum Time. There is no past and no future. There is only now. There is not a me who exists in some future moment of time requiring twice the mass I currently have laid claim to.
3. Since there is no future, there is no future to know. God knows his purposes and will accomplish them. This is the basis for free will.
4. God chooses to not be omniscient. Omniscience is a construct of Greek logic. God chooses to forget my sin. He may choose to not know my choices, and so take delight when I worship him. The incarnate Son chose to 'close his eyes' to the divine nature. In this he did not cease to be God, but simply chose not to use the attributes uniquely belonging to God, in the same fashion that we do not become blind when we close our eyes. God's sovereignty trumps Augustinian logic.
5. God has a triune nature. The best analogy I know (where all analogies fall short) is that of a checkerboard. The Father is the black squares (the water מי which includes the Father מ and his purposes י) , the Son is the white squares (the water ים which includes the Son ם and his purposes י), and the Spirit as the lines between the spaces, as the Spirit hovering over the face of the waters (the word heaven שמים represents the Spirit ש hovering over the face of the waters מים). This is why you see no creation of the waters; they represent the self-existent Father-Son. Getting off topic... sorry.
These things are discerned using the hermeneutic, and are the basis for my reasoning:
1. When there are two things, they are two aspects of one thing. Things thought to be redundant, are two aspects of one thing.
2. When there is an apparent contradiction, it is a riddle.
3. God invented the strokes, letters, gates, roots, and words of Hebrew and they all have metaphor that intermingle.
4. All of the Old Testament has a spiritual layer speaking of Christ. The literal-historical methods abuse the purpose of God in revealing himself through the Son. The purpose is to make God known, and the historical figures are true history but of secondary importance.
5. The Gospels are a reliable record of the testimonies of the disciples of how they understood Jesus fulfilled the prophecies. They show evidence of learning from study over time. Not that there are errors to be corrected, but that they had a deeper understanding of the mystery over time.
6. The letters are reliable guidance to the church by those who were given authority by Jesus to guide the church, and the doctrine is derived from the teaching of Jesus which is consistent with the teaching of the mystery which was hidden from the beginning.
7. The Book of Revelation is a recapitulation of the story of the cross, but done using the metaphor defined in the OT rather than historical figures as is prominent in the OT.
Current thoughts on UR:
1. I easily dismiss verses with two things as being not relevant to the topic. I am a sheep and a goat. I am a wheat and a tare. I cry with Paul "Who will deliver me from this body of sin and death!" The two in the field is one person who leaves a body behind, etc.
2. Things which are used to symbolize judgement, separate the flesh from the spirit: water(the word) destroys and gives life, fire burns up and purifies, etc.
3. The motif of the first shall be last and the last shall be first is expressed by the sub-motifs of the "First and Second Son", "Death and resurrection", "Desolate woman".
4. There are two sets of 'heaven and earth'. This suggests that they are simultaneous aspects of one set of heaven and earth. Initially it appears that it violates the simultaneous expression of two aspects of one thing, but many of the expressions are sequential... so maybe not.
5. The use of 'all' means all. The use of 'many' , intentionally does not use all.
6. If UR is taught in the New Testament, it is taught in the OT because Jesus only said and did what he saw His Father doing. The disciples learned from Jesus and the OT with the help of the Holy Ghost.
Questions from symbols:
1. The field is the harvest. The Jews are inside the circumcision (the first harvest) and the gentiles are the corners of the second harvest. Is there any mention of anyone that is outside the field?
2. The sea/waters represents God's purpose, as revealed in his word, and worked out in his creation. The harvest is done by the net and the fishermen. What do not get harvested and what are thrown back?
3. Is kneeling worship or forced submission?
4. Is there a class of people, who essentially are all goat, and have no sheep in them? Does this reconcile with everything else? Is Annihilation an answer?
5. Since the time of the cross was the judgement of mankind, which Christ bore, and God chooses to not know our choices, it would appear that he had to die for all, and there is no second judgement, since "It is finished".
That is an open presentation of where I am and somewhat of how I got there. So now I must enumerate all the scriptures pertaining to the subject, classify them as being answered by the framework, the metaphor or yet to be determined.
I am currently in the process of defining the boundaries of the various vignettes of Christ in the OT, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I do not see condemnation in the hidden layer. It is wrestling with decades of teaching from the literal that is my issue. I made an attempt to address the issues Gary posted, but found I was unable to participate because the thought process is so different.
I understand about "there is only now," but I think time is something God created with space. And that gives us the perception of past and future, but I sometimes wonder how we'll perceive time, maybe just truly in the present, when we're immortalized because there will be no death or corruption which seems to have something to do with us perceiving time the way we do. Death is ever getting closer, and, as you get older, times seems to go faster. It's all a matter of perception that can even be altered through various means. Even our perception of space can be altered, but I think we'll perceive both differently when we're immortalized. If we can be snatched away into the air to the celestial realm, I think even matter will be perceived differently which actually is just space, which you can see if you've got a powerful enough microscope.
I no longer believe in the concept of "free will" for anybody except God even though we make choices in our life.
I think God is "omniscient" and omnipotent.
I don't believe "God chooses to forget my sin." I think I'm justified through Jesus Christ's faith.
I don't think "The incarnate Son chose to 'close his eyes' to the divine nature." I think he simply emptied himself "taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity."
I think to say "he did not cease to be God" is a loaded statement because Jesus said the Father is his God. The word "God" can be interpreted various ways. Even Satan is said to be "the god of this eon."
I really don't care about "Augustinian logic" or that of any of the so called church fathers.
I don't believe "God has a triune nature." Scripture says God is one Lord. The trinity is just church doctrine that's a remnant of the political expediency of the Roman Empire. Yahweh was never said to be a "triune" god in the Hebrew Scriptures, and he was never said to be a "triune" god in the Greek scriptures either. I believe the Father, Yahweh Elohim, is the source of all. Yeshua HaMashiach, commonly called Jesus Christ, is the word of God, the only-begotten son of God, and the image of God. The holy spirit is simply the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, inspired the authors of the ancient scriptures, and lives in us believers.
I know there is much fondness for the Hebrew scriptures and culture, but I think God intentionally chose the Greek language to spread the evangel to all the nations at the time. I don't think Greek philosophy or mythology diminishes the Greek scriptures even though both are applied by the church to distort the evangel.
I think the "sheep" and "goat" applies to live nations and how they treated Israel at the judgment that will come a thousand years before dead individuals are raised and judged at the great white throne.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I don't think there is a "Holy Ghost" because I think that's simply an inaccurate translation for "holy spirit" which is just the power of God.
There are various figurative interpretations of many things in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. Some see things more literally than figuratively though.
I think "kneeling is worship," and "forced submission" isn't necessarily a bad thing if you realize that love is the most powerful force in the universe, and experiencing submission by the love of God is something that's good and will happen to all eventually.
Annihilation is not the answer. It is simply a misconception. I think, even when the word "destroy" is used in scripture, it is not meant to be thought of as a permanent condition because other scripture makes it clear that all on the earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross; God is the savior of all mankind; and God will be all in all.
I think the answer is not to forsake the literal for the figurative, but to know their purpose and place and be enlightened by both.
Everything in this post is just my perspective about what I've read in yours. I intend no offense, and I claim no authority. I also recognize no authority but God as we read in the word of God even though I realize everybody has a different interpretation.
Thanks Tom. No offense taken. The reason I shared them was to set a context for my beliefs and questions. Each of those things could be discussed individually, but this is not the forum for it. But it demonstrates quite graphically why most forums are so nasty. No one spends time to learn the context of the question, nor hear the context of the answer.
Am am looking for answers in the context of what I believe I know. So there are certain things that you and I cannot discuss until we came to an agreement on a context for the q&A, otherwise we'd just talk past each other. There are some things we could have fruitful discussions about.
I don't believe today what I believed 20 years ago, it's called learning, not heresy ;)
RE: Number 3 about forced worship
Every knee bow, every
tongue acclaim Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father...etc
That word acclaim means a joyful/thankful praise as it is used in the NT. A happy thing! :) so even if it is forced..lol, which I don't think it is in a negative way....I'm OK with the Lord forcing us into being so filled with thankfulness and truth till we all acclaim Jesus is Lord! :banana:
I'll try to get a link to a study on it
I agree Sue. Pig, I think we all come here to share our various perspectives, and I have some beliefs that others on the forum here regularly disagree with. I don't worry about that. I just say what I believe and why, and I try to always keep an open mind. My beliefs have also changed over the years. That's how I wound up here. I think I understand where you're coming from, but I just see some things differently as a result of my own life experience. You seem to be oriented more toward the Hebrew scriptures. You should find some folks here that will enjoy sharing that with you. I consider heresy a joke because the charge comes from the institution that itself is not conforming to the word of God. So I'm glad to be a happy heretic. I've seen some of those "nasty" discussions on other forums and even on this one. At least this one doesn't get on your case when you discuss universal reconciliation. It's open for discussion on most topics relating to scripture though. So I wouldn't hesitate to bring something up if it's on your mind. You'll probably find folks to agree and disagree with you no matter what you say just as happens with me regularly. But that's what forums are all about. It seems like most folks here have their minds made up about most things, but that's nothing different than the real world. I don't think it's a reason to be discouraged about expressing your own opinion about things. Like you say, it's all about "learning," even if it's just learning what your brothers and sisters believe, though that may not provide any new information to you that you weren't already aware of before. I think it's about communication. We're all one in the ecclesia, the body of Christ. So I think we ought to communicate once in awhile. It's good to do some studying by yourself sometimes, but it's also good to share holy spirit with your brothers and sisters sometimes. I think that's why we come here, and you won't usually hear anybody telling you you're going to the church version of "hell" here because that's something most folks know here know is a lie.
:cloud9: Pig I can already see your name does not suit you at all.
You said, "One of the strange things I do is assume that the NT authors, and Jesus, spoke and thought in Hebrew. I often translate the Greek to Hebrew in order to better correlate it to the OT."
Father had me start doing that 29 years ago, so I consider that a good assumption and not strange at all. We've discussed that on here before and in recent years, some evidence has been unearthed by scholars to prove at least "part" of the NT was written in Hebrew.
But as I'm sure you've found, doing what you're doing tracing it back, you can soon see that Hebrew thoughts run from Genesis to Revelation unbroken, like a thread in a tapestry. That's what convinced me it had to have all been written in Hebrew originally. Line up line you can see it as readily, especially since the Greek philosophy has done a great job of obscuring it, but once you see precepts it's as visible as a diamond in a bed of coal.
Once again, welcome to the board, looking forward to your 7 layers. :banana: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on May 22, 2015, 02:46:26 AM
Once again, welcome to the board, looking forward to your 7 layers. :banana: Blessings....
Thanks for the welcome. I will probably not get into the layers and voices except incidentally since that is not the express purpose of this forum. For several years I have done brain dumps into personal wiki to help with correlating the explosion of Christ in scripture. It was not really intended for public consumption. But recently I saw that I have more than 1400 people spending more than an hour per session trying to wade through it, that I decided I would attempt to make it more user friendly. I added a forum last week for those who wish to discuss the Hebrew hermeneutic and see the vignettes (or shadows as the author of Hebrews calls them) of Christ in the OT. I may steal some of the intro stuff from here in an attempt to maintain a polite atmosphere. Its already a pain just keeping spam bots out.
I am not relishing the idea of having to maintain a forum, but I have been booted from so many for the heresy seeing Christ in the OT that I have to do something to have conversations.
I also have a Facebook group. I have no intention ever of running ads or making money. It is preaching the cross in my mind, and I received that freely.
I'm not advertising.. just explaining why I may not go into great detail here. ;)
Welcome, Bob.
Your premise sounds very interesting, and I look forward to many discussions with you, and to learn more of your perspective.
I am very new here, myself. This seems to be a very welcoming place. I hope you find a home here, with us.
Be blessed. :welcome:
Thanks again, but now you guys are setting a snare ;)
One of the things that makes Tentmaker unique is it's targeted focus on UR. I can talk for days and speak of nothing but Christ and him crucified from the OT, and I am happy to do so. But it is my sincere desire to stick to the purpose of the forum, and give no cause for offense.
So I will be happy to share things that relate to UR, and respond to questions if further explanation is required, but stop tempting me..... pleeeeease ;)
:cloud9: I totally understand. The Lord put me in the OT from the get go, and all I could see was Christ. Way back then, every time I tried to share I got told to get out of the OT, there's no life in it, or the OT is just history. They thought I was nuts for seeing it, and I thought they were nuts for NOT seeing it. Stand off. I kept studying it and I kept seeing it. Still am after all these years, new stuff all the time. It's endless.
So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here. :thumbsup: Thanks....
It helps also,,, that the bible plainly says,,,, The whole book is about HIM .. This being an excellent witness ...
...6 Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required. 7 Then I said, "Behold, I come; In the scroll of the book it is written of me. 8I delight to do Your will, O my God; Your Law is within my heart."...
Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.
Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, my God.'" First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"
—though they were offered in accordance with the law.
9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will."(O) He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy(P) through the sacrifice of the body(Q) of Jesus Christ once for all.
Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Psalm 40:8
I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart."
Quote from: Cardinal on May 22, 2015, 11:49:12 AM
So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here. :thumbsup: Thanks....
http://sensusplenior.net/wiki/Main_Page
I understand the interest in the Hebrew scriptures, and I think they foreshadow Christ. I think something that wasn't revealed in them was the secret Paul revealed in the Greek scriptures.
"On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations--since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you, for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation. To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)
I am finding all Paul's secrets hidden in the OT.
Quote from: Pig on May 22, 2015, 07:52:34 PM
I am finding all Paul's secrets hidden in the OT.
You mean you also found the testimony of Jesus Christ being the ''spirit of prophecy '' :dsunny:
yay!!! many fail to see it ....
the SPIRIT OF CHRIST was in them all they spoke all this prophecy by the HOLY SPIRIT OF TRUTH WITNESS resting on them refreshing them ..
water in the dessert the waters of life freely .. "And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank
of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ." – 1 Cor 10:4
Quote from: Pig on May 22, 2015, 03:57:09 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on May 22, 2015, 11:49:12 AM
So please put up site addy so I can read some there if you're not going to share here. :thumbsup: Thanks....
http://sensusplenior.net/wiki/Main_Page
Quote from: Tom on May 22, 2015, 05:37:16 PM
I understand the interest in the Hebrew scriptures, and I think they foreshadow Christ. I think something that wasn't revealed in them was the secret Paul revealed in the Greek scriptures.
"On this behalf I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you, the nations--since you surely hear of the administration of the grace of God that is given to me for you, for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser, in accord with the gratuity of the grace of God, which is granted to me in accord with His powerful operation. To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord; in Whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith." (Ephesians 3:1-12)
Paul is the householder who serves the Old and the New.
Mt 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.
The Bereans checked what Paul said against the OT, so the OT must contain his teaching.
Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
"for by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser" (Ephesians 3:3-7)
There is no contradiction here:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Since I am finding the mystery hidden in the OT, the revelation of Christ to Paul made the light switch go on so that he could see it too. The Bereans would not have believed him unless the light switch went on for them as well. They validated Paul against the scriptures. If he had a brand new secret to tell, he would have been cast out as a Gnostic.
google "sensus plenior keys to the kingdom" for some more extensive discussion. ;)
Did you ever consider that the secret revealed in Ephesians happened after the visit to Berea in Acts? What makes you so sure Paul would have been cast out as a Gnostic anyway? Why do you think Paul said the secret in Ephesians was unknown before if it was, as you say, known in the Hebrew scriptures? Paul seemed to be well educated on the content of the Hebrew scriptures. So it seems that he wouldn't have claimed to be revealing something new if he knew it was in the Hebrew scriptures because he would have known that anybody familiar with them would have been able to find it in there.
I have considered that, but since I see them in the OT I see nothing new revealed in Paul's writings.
The Greek theologians can't even find the prophecy that Jesus would be called a Nazarene, why would you expect anyone practicing Greek hermeneutics would find Paul's teaching so easily?
The OT was a "where's Waldo" book, but no one even knew what Waldo looked like until the mystery was revealed In Jesus Christ. Once you see him in the OT, you see where Paul got his teaching.
A person who cannot cross their eyes right and see the image in a 3D piece of art is not qualified to say what the image is. But those who have seen it can speak of it in great detail. Once you learn how to see them, you no longer need the person who taught you how to see them.
Of course the Hebrew scriptures are the foundation of the evangel, and I think one of the reasons Paul was chosen as the apostle to the nations was that he was well schooled in them.
I'm not a cross-eyed Waldo fan, but I'm aware of this:
"There is nothing at all new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9)
So what do you think Paul was up to when he said this?
"by revelation the secret is made known to me (according as I write before, in brief, by which you who are reading are able to apprehend my understanding in the secret of the Christ, which, in other generations, is not made known to the sons of humanity as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets): in spirit the nations are to be joint enjoyers of an allotment, and a joint body, and joint partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus, through the evangel of which I became the dispenser" (Ephesians 3:3-7)
Tom, we are already talking past each other.
As I have said, that refers to Paul now understanding the hidden layer of scripture; the sensus plenior. It was hidden from all before the cross.
Adam could not eat of the three of life and the Hebrews could not see the messiah in their own scriptures, it being hidden in shadows and types. The keys to seeing the hidden prophecies of Christ are the symbols of the cross. When Jesus taught the disciples to start with the pictures of the cross and dig into the surrounding scriptures, the truth of Christ is seen in the OT. Once the Bereans saw how to see, they could see it too. Paul had not seen it until he met Christ.
Jesus knew who he was and what he was to do because he saw it in the OT. He did what he did because he saw the same prophecies spelled out in the circumstances he found himself, and played the roll to indicate he understood and was willing to face the cross. Zacheaus means 'pure' yet he represented sin as the chief servant of mammon. He was hanging in a tree. Jesus didn't invite himself to dinner with him because he loved short people, but because the OT prophecy is that the Messiah would go to the marriage supper of the lamb after he bore our sin on the cross.
Jesus stayed in the temple when he was 12 because of the prophecy hidden in Ge 14. He accepted the woman with crumbs because of the prophecy hidden in the laws concerning harvest, and the corners of the field. Paul advocated for the Gentiles on the same basis, salvation for the Gentiles was promised at the same time it was promised to the Jews.
I can say that no magic gift or revelation is needed to see them because I see them. I teach others to see them. They show me things that I have not see yet. Children see them. We are certainly guided by the Holy Spirit as he brings to remembrance the things which we learned, and helps us correlate them. But it is not without study. Teach, teach others who can teach others to teach, search the scriptures, study... The kingdom of Heaven is like teaching.
I would prefer not to talk ABOUT the Where's Waldo book, but simply read the scriptures and see Christ there. People can deny that the OT scripture has such prophecies... until they see them for themselves.
Hope that helps.
I see where you're coming from.
Well I never saw that before Pig ,
Thank you , Blessings for sharing some of what you keep in your heart as treasure [pearls]
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Luke 12:35
"Be dressed ready for service and keep your lamps burning.
Quote from: Tom on May 23, 2015, 09:08:23 PM
I see where you're coming from.
Cool. I am happy to try and show them to you. Cross your eyes thusly.... ;)
Quote from: rosered on May 23, 2015, 11:12:38 PM
Well I never saw that before Pig ,
Thank you ,
...
You are welcome. I love to show Christ in the OT, but so many have decided that there is only one layer to scripture, that finding ears willing to hear is a problem. I am not an author, so when I write, it is like dumping to a black hole. Without feedback I quit the subject.
I do much better when people are asking questions about the scripture that they are studying. They already have an investment in wanting to know... they are already seeking and asking, so their hearts are ready to see Him there.
Whenever I try to show them to disinterested people, they have all kinds of excuses for not looking at it. :(
Hi.............. Blessings , Well I looked at Gen 14
I could not see it , only a guess ,,, being the High priest forever , but I really dont know ?
I understand , I am the same,,,, rarely make posts , but am taught by the Spirit in participating , almost instantly and thankful .
I believe that is an odd but true saying
--If you haven't seen the post on darkness being grace, this may be confusing: the main duality of the Bible is not good and evil, it is Holiness and Love, which are reconciled on the cross revealing the Father through the Son.--
QuoteGe 14:1 ¶ And it came to pass in the days of Amraphel (sayer of darkness/grace) king of Shinar (the land of the whole word of God), Arioch (lion, from the same gate as light; אר representing holiness) king of Ellasar (God departed, kenosis), Chedorlaomer (handful of sheaves, a few Israelites) king of Elam (eternity), and Tidal (Great Son/Son of God) king of nations;
Four kings representing the four voices of God (prophet, priest, king and judge) as the Word of God and here represents the spiritual nature of the boy Jesus (the Word) as he is coming of age.
QuoteGe 14:2 [That these] made war with Bera (Son of evil) king of Sodom (burning/total devotion), and with Birsha (with iniquity) king of Gomorrah (persue merchandise), Shinab (teeth of the Father) king of Admah (red/sinful earth), and Shemeber (reputation of the separated Son) king of Zeboiim (the sacrifices that came quickly), and the king of Bela (destruction), which is Zoar (insignificance).
Five kings representing five aspects of the flesh, here are the flesh (instinctive nature) of the boy Jesus.
QuoteGe 14:3 All these were joined together in the vale (earthly) of Siddim (field), which is the salt (rotten rags) sea (creation).
The nine kings together represent the same as the nine fish in Joh 21:11 144+9 = 153. Nine says that each person of the Trinity is individually fully God. The boy Jesus was fully God who had joined us in the flesh. As he was approaching 13 years old (the age of the Bar Mitvah) he was realizing that he was a spiritual person. He was coming of age. His spirit-4 wrestled with his flesh-5, with his spirit winning. He was tempted in every way that we are.
QuoteGe 14:4 Twelve years they served Chedorlaomer (handful of sheaves/Israelites), and in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
Jesus served a handful of Israelites (his parents) and then rebelled (this is the genre of riddle and does not impute sin upon Jesus).
1000 represents king. 100 the church, 10 is Christ.
Jesus also fed the four thousand (four kings) and the five thousand (five kings) as Melchizadek fed the nine kings.
I haven't attempted to justify all the symbols since the attempt grows in scope exponentially. If you search for a 12 year old king you will also find out when Jesus 'knew he was God'. Some English translations hide it.
I hope I have given enough so you can see the 'teaser' of the vignette of Christ as a boy hidden in Ge 14. There is much more as we dig into the Hebrew metaphor.
Blessings Bob ,
Well that sure is new to me ..
I have looked in the hidden name meanings for years and that ''helped'' some to understand a bit of it .
I understood Christ roles as servant to all , as well as the priest and King and prophet and judge , with alot more titles , but not in this manner .
I appreciate your willingness to explain this in greater detail .
:cloud9: Very interesting. I would like to know more of what you base this on. Thanks. :thumbsup:
I think Jesus had a close relationship wth His Father. He was the word made flesh, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact icon of His nature. Everything that is was created by Him. They communed as He walked(imo) and the Spirit that was in Him was active and immediate, "for all those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God."
I also believe Jesus went to Zaccheus' house because He loved people- specifically Zaccheus, and that He had many such meals in many such houses.
I agree in principle with what you are saying about a hidden layer in the OT that is opened up when one turns to Christ....Paul says this plainly in 2 Cor 3:15 through 2 Cor 4. I believe Paul, as well as all the apostles received much direct revelation from the Lord.
Of course, it would all be integral, from the OT to the NT, since Jesus is the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.
Quote from: eaglesway on May 26, 2015, 05:30:06 PM
I think Jesus had a close relationship wth His Father. He was the word made flesh, the radiance of the Father's glory and exact icon of His nature. Everything that is was created by Him. They communed as He walked(imo) and the Spirit that was in Him was active and immediate, "for all those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God."
I also believe Jesus went to Zaccheus' house because He loved people- specifically Zaccheus, and that He had many such meals in many such houses.
I agree in principle with what you are saying about a hidden layer in the OT that is opened up when one turns to Christ....Paul says this plainly in 2 Cor 3:15 through 2 Cor 4. I believe Paul, as well as all the apostles received much direct revelation from the Lord.
Of course, it would all be integral, from the OT to the NT, since Jesus is the word of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy.
:thumbsup: Amen,, I do believe this is the way the
Spirit of God's love works with all of us from than OT to even now .....
We see some like Abraham who had no bible or internet or or knowledge , but what God gave of Himself'' in being present '' with Abraham by Spirit
I see it as very intimate and personal relationship, on a level you can understand that has the ripple effect of spreading to others by the same motive of
the heart that God works in us all , God is Spirit of Love and Truth ,the Word is record a book of witnesses that testify OF JESUS CHRIST to us even now to Gods glory and I Believe Abraham was in Christ even in his own day because He was Glad to see Jesus as Jesus proclaims being the I AM ..that I AM
The Word also is witness to mans shame of disobedience to His Word and we see their end , and those whom the world was not worthy of them because they were Living to GOD ,the same God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob They come out of God and gathered back into God as witnesses to Gods glory in the earth as it is in heaven , heaven the blue skies , atmosphere . mankind observes looking for signs ,
heaven the Sun and Moon and starry hosts of heaven and Lords armies[By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth ] and the third heaven the Paradise of God in His presence as it is higher in Spirit Light and life ... in which the Spirit calls to come up here ....
faith being love others as you love yourselves , this was a command of obedience
I don't think we can do this right at first , When Jesus was telling Peter if you love me feed my lambs ... love others, as if unto the Lord Himself ..
It was not until you know, the Love of Christ spread abroad in your own heart ,His presence in you , that you can even keep the command , Jesus asked " Love others the WAY I LOVE YOU and gave myself for you ...
The real deal , 100% source is from God Himself , that
must take root within us first , to even be legitimate , but is expressed in many different ways in my opinion .. rooted and grounded in Christ same being Love of God
6that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18
may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth
all the saints gathered in Christ already by the HOLY SPIRIT and even now ...