Mark of the Beast 2

[Jock]

Martin Zender has an interesting take on the "Mark". Here it is;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv2sHvbbx3g

Jock

[micah7:9]

Never really had much to do with Zender(no reason in particular just didn't) but what he reasons gives one something to think about or should. I quit embracing the "cross" symbol about 35 years ago after reading "Two Babylons" by Alexander Hislop :2c:

[eaglesway]

Whether or not Jesus died on a stake or a cross doesnt mean much to me as an issue but.... The idea that the mark of the beast is the cross in a world where there are maybe a billion (nominal)Christians versus 6 billion of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Communists, Secular Humanists, etc. Makes Zenders position that the cross is the mark of the beast highly unlikely. The whole world will be unable to buy or sell without this mark, and those who receive it will worship the image of the beast- whatever that will be.

Zender's own point is that it would be anyone of the three, the number, the name, or the emblem, so where does 666 intersect with the cross? And what is the name of the beast that intersects with the cross? And so everyone who values the cross as an emblem of their faith is to be stricken from the book of life and tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb(Rev 14)?

I think this is just the pendulum swinging too far. A HUGE issue made of a non-issue, whether Jesus died on a pole  or a cross, which is unprovable in either direction, imo, and even if it were provable, it would be murky enough that God would not make such an issue the center of such a huge judgment.

[Seth]

It's possible that the mark of the beast represents the attitude of carnality present in both the mind and works. 6 being the number of man, and man, according to Solomon is himself a beast.

[sheila]

   the Beast that was,is not,yet is...speaks of the 'TEMPORALNESS" of the powers of darkness..it will GO INTO PERDITION..speaks

  of the time when all wickedness/kingdom of darkness is totally expunged from creation. Judas as a representative of

  the son of perdition illustrated the possession of men by satan..and his images entering into and possessing men


    Rev 17;8 and  John 3;17,5;22 and 8;15 shows this is not a judgement on man..but on the demonic kingdom of darkness

   these things concern the powers of darkness/night comes and no man can work. the mystery of iniquity to be revealed shows

that man has been in ignorance of our real enemy..the invisible kingdom of darkness.

   there are two kingdoms down here......the little children have flesh and blood[man] like you behold Jesus has..demonic spirits

do not,therefore they lust after man's flesh to work their iniquity and pour out their lusts.

   names for images of saatn[corrupt one] are according to the body he possesses.  Beast,serpent,son of perdition,Leviathan

  Behemoth,Babylon...the powers of darkness possessing such became ..gods of the sea..gods of forests,gods of the underworld

possesing snakes,moles creatures that dwell there.

   Bodies of men have become 'strongholds' of evil spirits..who refuse to 'LET MY PEOPLE GO"

    we are instructed to not sell oil.{truth].........we recieved freely and give freely..it is a mark of the beast to sell[mammon loving]

      NIGHT COMES WHEN NO MAN CAN WORK.....night meaning principalities and powers of darkness.

    Ezekiel's temple with images of beast on the temple walls..illustrates our body as the temple and the unclean images/projections

  on the walls of our minds done of the kingdom of darkness......

      this is all temporal...and such powers to make man bear the image of the corrupt one shall be done away with[go into perdition=

  everlasting cutting off of kingdom of darkness..with the subsequent delivery of man from the power of the 'wicked one"

[micah7:9]

Whether or not Jesus died on a stake or a cross doesnt mean much to me as an issue but.... The idea that the mark of the beast is the cross in a world where there are maybe a billion (nominal)Christians versus 6 billion of Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Communists, Secular Humanists, etc. Makes Zenders position that the cross is the mark of the beast highly unlikely. The whole world will be unable to buy or sell without this mark, and those who receive it will worship the image of the beast- whatever that will be.

Zender's own point is that it would be anyone of the three, the number, the name, or the emblem, so where does 666 intersect with the cross? And what is the name of the beast that intersects with the cross? And so everyone who values the cross as an emblem of their faith is to be stricken from the book of life and tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb(Rev 14)?

I think this is just the pendulum swinging too far. A HUGE issue made of a non-issue, whether Jesus died on a pole  or a cross, which is unprovable in either direction, imo, and even if it were provable, it would be murky enough that God would not make such an issue the center of such a huge judgment.

Me personally I can find agreement with the above state, yet the cross that symbolizes Christianity even to those who do not conform to Catholicism,  is somewhat of symbol of ones faith. Simply an idol, that one uses for identity and thinking as Zender, would be a mark of identification. For me in a small way unrepentance[not having a change of mind] could possibly be a "mark."
Keep in mind that those who believe the Truth, that the Lord will save all men are already outside of orthodox religion, orthodox religion does use the cross as symbol of identity. 2Co 6:17  wherefore, come ye forth out of the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, and an unclean thing do not touch, and I--I will receive you,
A physical idol or an idol of the heart imo is an unclean thing. :2c:

[micah7:9]

It's possible that the mark of the beast represents the attitude of carnality present in both the mind and works. 6 being the number of man, and man, according to Solomon is himself a beast.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

I believe there are many good hearts in denominational churches. I believe there have been many throughout the generations of Christian faith after the early church became hidden in the heavenlies, only to manifest here and there around the world throughout the proceeding generations- serving the Lord according to the limits of their knowledge from a pure heart, and imo they will celibrate in the first or second resurrection- all cobwebs swept away. "Enter the joy of your Lord"

He endured the shame(of the cross) for the joy set before Him.

I think Christians who have seen more, are still somewhat blind to something I consider a fact- that God will not judge by knowledge, but rather by service and love. ""I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was thirsty and you fed me." I think the parable of the good Samaritan is sort of the prime teaching on the judgment of God and how it works in all the scripture.

The Samaritan man may not have known who he worshipped(Jesus told the woman at the well, "You Samaritans do not kno who you worship), but he was justified over and before the Parisee and the Levite, who knew, but did not do. :o)

The benefit of seeing more clearly is to set the creation(people) free from futility, not to judge them, as only God knows the secrets of men's hearts, and according to Romans 2 that is how He judges.

[eaglesway]

I believe for some the cross is an idol. I think for some it is simply a contact point for their love of Christ, who was crucified for them, and knowing what it actually looked like is immaterial. :o)

[sheila]

he who loves has been born of God. Interesting how God said to Israel...I will make you jealous by a people without knowledge.......

    'If I be lifted up,I shall draw all men unto me"

     

[Seth]

I believe for some the cross is an idol. I think for some it is simply a contact point for their love of Christ, who was crucified for them, and knowing what it actually looked like is immaterial. :o)

I agree. An idol is whatever one worships above God. The cross can be an idol but it can also be a remembrance of his sacrifice. It depends on the person. It can become legalism to set a rule that the cross is an idol for everyone because it removes the necessity for each person to analyze their own intent. A stick with a traverse bar is nothing of itself. What counts is what you bring to it of your heart. My opinion.

I can see why someone would abstain from association with a symbol of false doctrine, but I don't think that makes it an idol for everyone. I would have no problem putting a cross as a symbol for his sacrifice on my website as long as I am talking about what it truly accomplishes.

I think it's wrong to accuse people of worshipping something without factoring in the intent of the heart. An idol is nothing of itself.

[Lazarus Short]

This is an article with more complete information than I was able to ascertain years ago when I put all the canned goods on the table, and broke the code myself:

http://www.av1611.org/666/barcode.html

It is very possible that the federal tax number which you must have to buy and sell in the commercial sphere of things, is the Mark.

[eaglesway]

There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)

[Lazarus Short]

There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)

I don't think the www decides...

[sheila]

consider  Zechariah ch 13 cleansing from sin.  the temple..oneness with God...two thirds of 0ne = 666  the third[holy of Holies/spirit]

  I will bring into the fire...spirit returns unto God

[eaglesway]

There were thousands of years where no one had the internet to tell them whether it might be a pole or a cross. ;o)

I don't think the www decides...

Exactly

[Seth]

Where does he get the idea that everything has a barcode? Fruit doesn't. When I buy fruit, it gets weighed, not scanned. Also, what about services? People don't scan a barcode to hire a maid or get a massage.

[Jock]

Seth

The grocery chains are wrapping fruit and veg with seran wrap and they all have a bar code

[Seth]

Yeah but the Bible says that the mark will be not on the object by on the hand and forehead. The actual fruit doesn't have the mark on it. It doesn't say anything in Revelation 13 about the actual products having the mark. That's what I never understood about the barcode theory.

[Jock]

Seth

I'm not worried about taking the mark of the beast off a cabbage!

:Peace2: :Peace2:

Jock

[Seth]

Yeah.... :laughing7:

[Seth]

I think everything we need to know pertaining to life and godliness is already explained in plain language by the apostles. Believe in Jesus and love your neighbor. I think if you do that, God is pleased, I don't think we need to be looking around for modern technology to nab us in a technicality. You believed in Jesus and loved your neighbor, but you embraced digital technology? You're fired! I don't think it's like that. Believe in Jesus, love your neighbor, and God is pleased. He says so in his book.

Jesus didn't die to save man from technology. He came to save us from sin, and sin is defined clearly in the Bible. Technology is not lawlessness. In fact it can be used to help people who couldn't be helped before. That's why I believe the number of the beast is an indication of the inward part that resists those two commandments and is represented in Revelation as an outward mark, such as many things in Revelation I believe use outward symbols to express inward truths.

[sheila]

Matt 6;25-34 for those who have anxious thoughts about their physical needs[and worrying needlessly over material things imo and

  mark of beast etc.]

   GOD WILLING  James 4;13   Now Listen..you who say..'Today or tomorrow we will go this or that city,spend a year there,

  carry on buisiness,and make money. Why,you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? It is a mist

  that appears for a little while then vanishes.  You ought to say....IF IT IS THE LORD'S WILL WE WILL LIVE AND DO THIS OR

  THAT. AS IT IS YOU BOAST AND BRAG...............BOASTING ABOUT TOMORROW........

   Brother's do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it.

..................beware doing this....consigning your fellow man to LOF judgement...you might find yourself a slanderer of celestial beings.

[Seth]

1 Cor 4
5Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.  6Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

Now, if someone is going to say that someone else has accepted the mark of the beast by either having a cross, or embracing digital technology, I'd like to know, where is that written? Does Revelation say "the mark of the beast is the cross?" or, "the mark of the beast is a digital technology innovation?"

If not, then how can you determine the motives of the heart and go beyond what is written to judge your brothers by claiming that these personal  theories condemn them? Zender has a theory. That's all it is. It's not WRITTEN, so he cannot use his theory to draw a conclusion on the relationship between those people and Christ. My personal opinion.

Revelation provides enough mystery in its symbolism to invite others to make theories, and then to use those theories to make condemning remarks about other people. I think it's a test. That's why I cannot stand when people surmise that Obama is the anti-Christ. Obama is a real person, not a theory, and same with any other public figure. I just get so annoyed with this kind of accusatory stuff.

Christians do this all the time, sitting back in their armchairs at home wondering who has the mark of the beast, and who is the anti Christ, but they all share the same characteristic: it's never THEM. It's always someone else, never them. And yet Paul said for all the good he did, he didn't even know if it was from a clean motive, even though he had a clean conscience. He didn't even judge himself much less someone else, and certainly not on the theories of others.

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:  Seth.  Personally I believe Jesus Christ takes away all the sin of the people. And that this will be testified to,in due time...

    by the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost....and even though this same testimony of the two wittnesses[word of God/Holy spirit].

.lie as dead in the street

    3 days,when the 'beast' kills them...that the spirit of God will enter the wittness'es testimony and cause them to stand on their feet

   and the upward call shall be heard.............first resurrection...