The lost son and lost sheep parables

[sheila]

 but being yet carnal babes..they have divisions[not holding ALL things in common with All men] as ALL have bore

the image of the corrupt one[the saints were overcome] so,too,shall ALL bear the image of the incorrupt one.

   That 'image' will be when God writes[work of His hands] His law of LOVE in their hearts and minds...and they will

  then Love God in truth/knowing Him..that He has taken away all of their sin..and is not counting their trespasses

against them...and they will..then...LOVE their brother's as themselves....not counting their trespasses against them...

  knowing that they,too,in ignorance and rebellion..in times past have done so.
 

  having bound up all men in disobedience....in order to show mercy/grace unto them all.

 

[sheila]

EW...I disagree with it not showing UR or US.  and I do also acknowledge your light on how men shepherds should behave

  when sheep stray.  But you must also take into account that the 'shepherds' do not OWN THE SHEEP..and that is why

  they 'flee' from the salvation of ALL men[prodigals] when they behold the 'wolf' coming. Because of increasing lawlessness

  their love cools. But the 'GOOD" Shepherd[only God is good] OWNS THE SHEEP...the coin/sheep/son had a rightful

  'OWNER"  God 'OWNS" His creation and all it's creatures.....by taking into account this 'ownership' in the parables

   I believe it does support UR OR US and dis ET or salvation of just a few.

    God the Owner of  riches[whole creation as coin lost/small part of His creation as coin lost]

   God the 'owner' of flock of sheep[you men are the sheep of my pasturage] and not willing to suffer a portion of the loss of

   His flock.

   God as a Father..rejoicing and celebrating and honouring the restoration of His son,back to himself.

   it gets real personal when it's 'yours'  LOVE IS VERY VERY PERSONAL..and the loss of something you value highly

  moves you to take action. whether it is sweeping the floor to find it..searching for it..or going for to meet.

[rosered]

Luke 12 27"Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow[b] is thrown into the fire[/b], how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!

29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

God is the  giver to all  :Pray:

[marie glen]

How do ETer's twist these two parables to fit with the Hell doctrine.

I believe they have taken the one scripture which could be seen as meaning, after death no chance to repent and believe.. which is when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins. Which to me means they will rise still in the carnal, imperfect and flawed, sinful nature.. (DOA) But surely judgment day will be a rather long day of intense review of all human history, a day of weeping and wailing even the gnashing of teeth.. so much terribleness done under the sun.. all reviewed, writing/deeply engraving His law on every heart, mind and psyche..

[marie glen]

Luke 12 27"Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.

28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow[b] is thrown into the fire[/b], how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!

29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.

33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

God is the  giver to all  :Pray:

dear sister! I LOVE those verses.. some of my favorites.. especially, "consider the lilies, they neither spin nor toil but your heavenly Father clothes them.." :smile: ..even just "consider the lilies" - I must be wanting to see spring! :)

[eaglesway]

EW...I disagree with it not showing UR or US.  and I do also acknowledge your light on how men shepherds should behave

  when sheep stray.  But you must also take into account that the 'shepherds' do not OWN THE SHEEP..and that is why

  they 'flee' from the salvation of ALL men[prodigals] when they behold the 'wolf' coming. Because of increasing lawlessness

  their love cools. But the 'GOOD" Shepherd[only God is good] OWNS THE SHEEP...the coin/sheep/son had a rightful

  'OWNER"  God 'OWNS" His creation and all it's creatures.....by taking into account this 'ownership' in the parables

   I believe it does support UR OR US and dis ET or salvation of just a few.

    God the Owner of  riches[whole creation as coin lost/small part of His creation as coin lost]

   God the 'owner' of flock of sheep[you men are the sheep of my pasturage] and not willing to suffer a portion of the loss of

   His flock.

   God as a Father..rejoicing and celebrating and honouring the restoration of His son,back to himself.

   it gets real personal when it's 'yours'  LOVE IS VERY VERY PERSONAL..and the loss of something you value highly

  moves you to take action. whether it is sweeping the floor to find it..searching for it..or going for to meet.

I don'tn think it serves well as a scriptural proof of UR because it speaks of leaving 99 righteous and going to retrieve 1 who has wandered from the flock. As a testimony of the redemptive nature of Messiah, maybe, but imo not a parable I would pull out as a scripture proof of the salvation of all, relating to how ETrs see it (opening post question)  :o)  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

I don'tn think it serves well as a scriptural proof of UR because it speaks of leaving 99 righteous and going to retrieve 1 who has wandered from the flock. As a testimony of the redemptive nature of Messiah, maybe, but imo not a parable I would pull out as a scripture proof of the salvation of all, relating to how ETrs see it (opening post question)  :o)  :2c:

I think it does serve as Scriptural UR proof. The thing with parables is that the shouldn't be used beyond the what they try to teach.
Obviously the big (and only?) point of the parable is that the Good Shepherd goes for the full 100% while other shepherds likely see 99% as a very good score.
I think that's all the parable is about.

Of course all sort of negative things can be added. Sheep #100 already died. The shepherd didn't find the sheep. The shepherd falls of a cliff and all 100 sheep perish. The other 99 get eaten by wolves. The parable is only about animals; not humans. etc etc.

Likewise I can put a negative slant to the coin parable. While the woman searched for her coin she neglected her baby which died from lack of care.


The parables aren't intended as an scientific writing that covers all angles. It focusses one one point. All quite UR points.
- The shepherd isn't happy until He gets all sheep back into the fold.
- The woman keeps searching until she finds that coin (the lost sinner). She gives  party that likely costs more than the coin itself :-)
- The father was happy when the son returned. Just happy. No judgements about his sins, wrongs, etc. Just a big hug and an even bigger party.

I see those parables as 3 chapters of one big parable/teaching. They have all one thing in common. Everything is returned where it should have been all the time. Kinda URish if you ask me....

[WhiteWings]

I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."

You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.

I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.


Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight!  :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.

As you already know from my previous post I disagree. I guess it depends on if you believe the shepherd is able to find and the sheep and bring it back into the fold.
"is able" are keywords here. Shepherd Jesus goes looking for the lost sheep. Obviously not just to beg it it to return. To get the job done. It He able to do so? If you answer yes you proved UR. Why, how, when. None of that matters. The only thing that counts that the sheep is back home.

As for the flock being believers only. That's not Scriptural. Neither that the whole world is His flock. For starters "another flock" is mentioned. I let Scripture itself define Jesus' flock.

Matt 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said to them, Have I not been sent except to the sheep which went astray from the house of Israel?


The UR implications of the parable seem rather obvious to me. The definition of the flock is whole other (long) discussion.

[micah7:9]

I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."

You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.

I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.


Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight!  :winkgrin:

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

They justify it  as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.

In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.

As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.

As you already know from my previous post I disagree. I guess it depends on if you believe the shepherd is able to find and the sheep and bring it back into the fold.
"is able" are keywords here. Shepherd Jesus goes looking for the lost sheep. Obviously not just to beg it it to return. To get the job done. It He able to do so? If you answer yes you proved UR. Why, how, when. None of that matters. The only thing that counts that the sheep is back home.

As for the flock being believers only. That's not Scriptural. Neither that the whole world is His flock. For starters "another flock" is mentioned. I let Scripture itself define Jesus' flock.

Matt 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said to them, Have I not been sent except to the sheep which went astray from the house of Israel?


The UR implications of the parable seem rather obvious to me. The definition of the flock is whole other (long) discussion.

"As for the flock being believers only."      Amen

[sheila]

   Jesus spoke of why He taught in the parables.......there's a difference in being righteous...and good...Jesus spoke of it....

     hardly anyone would die for a righteous man............

     you can be righteous and put to death without mercy......but God's 'GOODNESS" exceeds that.......mercy/grace far

   exceeds 'righteousness'   for this reason He says....he who judges without mercy[99 righteous] shall have his judgement

without mercy.

   p.s.  when the shepherd leaves the 99 righteous....they scatter and wander off,too! LOL!!!

[sheila]

 can we fully appreciate the light in these parables without considering the covenant God made with ADAM/all men and the

promised seed? I don't think so........the law covenant was added...because of the increasing of sin. when God made covenant

to take out a people for 'special' possession of which the promised seed would come through..it was so this special possession

  would be a 'Blessing' unto all the other's. How can that be so..if the 'special' people consider all the nations as 'cursed and cut

off from God "

      Israel overcome,Christendom overcome....the Kingdom of heaven is like a woman that took a measure

  of leaven and hid it in a bowl with three measures of flour.  ....until all was leavened[with grace]


   One would think,that those God have called to minister to the ALL that are to inherit salvation..would have divested

with the notion that any prodigals sinner man etc were cut off as the cursed from God. Don't we know that ALL ARE SAVED?

but are in ignorance of it,taken captive of the devil,blinded to it. This all will come in each their order..Christ dying for them

at the proper time..while they are still sinners.

    I would also think that such called ones would have a servants heart in the matter..knowing that all men were bound up in sin

  in order that grace be given unto all,and no flesh boast before God.all in Adam are prodigals. If God should want to use some

  men as an example of dishonor and some as example's of honour..for His purpose of teaching..do we not know that

  we have not come of ourselves..that the potter mars the vessel in his hands..makes some of honourable use and others

  for common...according to his purpose.

  Bless and curse not.......... do you not know Christ is our Sabbath? Our Rest? when man ceases from his own works of his hands

  and rests in the completed works of God and His Christ.  Lifting Christ and His finished work on the cross UP will

  draw all men unto Him..behold the hand..behold the nail...engravened on the palms of God!  Because of His great Love

  ye sons of men are not consumed!!!!



















   

[eaglesway]

I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."

You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.

I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.


Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight!  :winkgrin:

:thumbsup:

I'm not speaking of doctrine or denomination. The shepherd knows those who are of His flock. He knows those wgho yearn for Him. His flock will eventually include all, but until that time, in order for a sheep to go astray it must first be in the fold. Paul wrote of this.

"If you find a brother or sister in a a fault, let those who are spiritual(meek, humble, loving, wise, discerning) among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves, lest you should stumble."

I do not believe His flock is made up of religious people. It is made up of loving people. Jesus was drawing a picture of the Pharisee's unrighteous judgment, juxtaposed against His heart to seek and save that which is lost. He will eventually save every last one- but as of now, there are those who are in the flock(he knows who they are) and there are those who think they are in the fold but are not, and there are those who don't care if there is a fold or who the shepherd is, and there are those who know and still do not care to be in the fold. So be it. God loves them all, the gentle sheperd will pursue and redeem everyone.

But really, unless I misunderstood the original post was concerning the parable as a proof text for UR. My response was not to all the fine line interpretations and extrapolations. it is not a clear proof text for UR- it can be applied in any of the three paradigms equally (UR, ET, ED)

But if a person thinks they are going after the lamb who has gone astray, when they are butting heads with a goat, or fighting a wolf, or wrestling with a dog, or confronting a sorcerer, or reproving a religionist, then they have no discernment- no matter how good their intentions are.

In such cases, only in the longest ultimate view of people already in the know of UR, is that parable a witness to UR(and as such it is beautiful), butt is not really a good proof text for persuading ETrs and EDrs imo, and I think that was the issue of the original post. And as Forest would say, "N thats all I got to say about that!" :o)