How do ETer's twist these two parables to fit with the Hell doctrine.
ET view:
The lost sheep was never found. The sheep refused to follow the shepherd. The sheep died before it was found by the shepherd and lost it's chance of salvation. The lost sheep was saved but the the other 99 sheep were eaten by wolves while the shepherd was away. And then the formerly lost sheep died of grief because all his friends were dead :laugh:
Many lost sons never return home.
My view is that those parables are not separate but lets call it a big salvation teaching.
That one sheep couldn't find the flock. Perhaps didn't even tried too. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.
The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on its fate.
The prodigal son sort of rejected his father. He chooses to be cut off. The way he spends his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road completely destroyed him financially. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No, he was extra happy when his son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.
Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So no matter how many things Father lost on the wide road; He'll eventually finds them again.
So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be acceptable. But when when all those facts are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....
A Savior is born! :banana:
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on December 27, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.
How can they justify the 100 sheep though as a small minority of mankind.
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?
I think "the lost son and the lost sheep" both show that God loves all and that none will remain lost forever. I agree that those who don't believe Colossians 1:20 assume the parables are concerning the "flock of believers." I think they all believe only some who are lost will be found (saved), but I think, depending on who you're talking about, some believe all were never intended to be saved and others believe God is not able to save some because man's so called free will overcomes God's will which is crazy. That's Calvinism vs. Arminianism vs. Universalism.
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
"our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:3,4)
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers" (1 Timothy 4:10)
Scripture does not say those who are lost suffer torture in fire forever, only that unbelievers will experience the second death (Revelation 21:8), but death will be abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26). So nobody is lost forever because all those who are dying will eventually be immortalized.
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Those who believe in torture in fire forever are simply deceived by orthodox doctrine supported by forgery in the translation of scripture. All is out of God being operated through God's will, and all will literally return into God (Romans 11:36). God's ultimate plan is to be "all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28), and that will be accomplished at the consummation of the eons.
About the flocks....
I believe the 2 flocks, my flock and that other flock, are the Northern and Southern Kingdoms.
Judah and Benjamin make up the Southern kingdom. All other tribes make the Northern kingdom. The Northern kingdom never returned from exile. Jesus was part of the Southern kingdom. His flock.
Jesus also said the other flock/kingdom will eventually listen to His voice and the two flocks have one shepherd. North and South gets reunited. Isa 11:12
So my view is that salvation is only for the people that are part of the two (reunited) flocks. Jews. :eek:
The other Northern flock is huge because it was 10 kingdoms. When Jesus lived the other flock was pagan to the core. Simply because it was assimilated in the nations it never left. But still Jesus claimed that flock will be reunited. I think that flock is best known as Gentiles. Modern day Jews, are searching for the lost 10 tribes in history records, linguistic research but also through things like DNA. The short conclusion is that those 10 tribes have spread the globe. Mostly concentrated in the Christian nations. A large part of Christianity (the other flock) was born/originates from Europe. The people of Europe founded America and took Christianity with them. But even the native Americans show 'traces of Jewishness' before the first colonist set foot on their soil. Similar story for Australian. So while the lost tribes may look as a setback for God because He lost a huge part of His people it seems to have turned into His advantage big time because the other flock has grown to massive size.
The thing with mixing people is that they start to share blood(lines) and then ancient adoption laws come into play. Of course everyone without as single drop of Jewish blood is accepted into the flock if he/she becomes a Bible believer.
I don't have divine insight, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if right now a vast part of the world is part of the two flocks. And the remaining sheep are free, even invited, to join the united flock.
:2c:
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on December 28, 2014, 03:15:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?
IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 10:17:57 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on December 28, 2014, 03:15:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?
IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.
:iagree:
I agree with ew on what he has presented. but I do see another perspective of how it could be an et vs ur. if you consider all in Adam[son of God/sheep of His] sent out of
the garden d/t self-indulgent[partake of tokogae] and seeing them far off...went forth to meet them[reconcile to Christ] prodigal's return thus being all men concluded in the
judgement...all men concluded in the parable..lost son[lost in Adam] found in Christ...just as we have all bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall we all bear the image
of the incorrupt.
ps. 99 righteous....there is none righteous..no not one!..so..the 99 sheep are found 'righteous' only in that Christ has them in His care[laid down His life for them]
:goodpost:
They say that God will save only believers who repent or that he will only save those in His flock and not the rest. They also twist other passages to say that All actually means just "all believers" or that God is the Savior of all men, THAT IS, of those who believe.
It just depends how you're reading these passages. When I had the fear of ET I could never see these passages that spelled out UR, I think there are many believers in this situation. :2c:
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.
But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11
In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.
I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.
Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 10:17:57 AM
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on December 28, 2014, 03:15:48 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
So what about the parable of the prodigal son?
IMO Similar, in that it addresses one who leaves the flock (father's house similar to sheepfold). In this case the stray sheep gains wisdom through trials leading to brokeness and then returning with a servants heart after leaving as a proud, self-indulgent son. Not really ET vs UR, as I see it anyway.
But there is one critical different. When the prodigal son comes back, the other son is resentful. That to me symbolizes the anger of the "elect" towards an unreprentant sinner who is allowed to enter Heaven. After all, the Pharisees walked around passing judgement on others and I see it so much on youtube. Religious people love to pass judgement on atheists, and Universalists.
I don't see the older brother as ETrs myself. I see it as a child of God who gets religious, self-satisfied and self righteous- could be ET or UR or whatever. The prodigal, to me, would be any ambitious young believer who bolts with his/her inheritance in order to go "start their ministry" and winds up iin the ditch.
Gentiles were without inheritance, as Paul states, "Separate from the household of God, outside the promises, without God in the world". So I don't believe the prodigal symbolizes the Gentile church either.
Altho there ARE many deeper themes to be plumbed in the parable, I think it is a mistake to try to make everything speak to UR. I think their are UR people in the prodigal son and UR people in the older brother- Likewise for ETrs some in the prodigal, some in the older brother. We all stray at times. We all think we are ready for something we are not ready for sometimes. To me, the prodigals problem was PRESUMPTION and IMMATURITY. He went off like a loose cannon and got learned. Or you could even say 'burned" LOL, like in his own lil lake of fire where he got wise and humble and willing to wait and serve "Everyman will be salted with fire" :o)
In my view, some of the parables are 'wisdom parables' touching on universal themes of life and the journey into the kingdom of God, or out of it.
There are enough simple, bold, clear statements in the word declaring the salvation of all, that I don't need to work to hard to press anything into the mold if i don't feel like it fits- but that is only my opininion.
Walking the narrow path.
One prodigal walks the path of self-destruction.
One prodigal walks the path of self-righteousness.
The middle of the path is the way.
Narrow as the edge of a sword.
Neither looking to right or the left.
The line between self-destruction and self-righteousness is humility,
May I walk in humility with Jesus. I hope so.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: dajomaco on December 30, 2014, 03:37:53 PM
Walking the narrow path.
One prodigal walks the path of self-destruction.
One prodigal walks the path of self-righteousness.
The middle of the path is the way.
Narrow as the edge of a sword.
Neither looking to right or the left.
The line between self-destruction and self-righteousness is humility,
May I walk in humility with Jesus. I hope so.
Quote from: Searching_For_The_Truth on December 27, 2014, 10:06:14 PM
They would argue that not all of humanity is part of God's flock of sheep.
Yes, that is correct, as the Revelation states that God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations, IIRC. The interesting thing to me is that the goat nations do not seem to be rejected from the commonwealth of the Kingdom. They may well have a different status, but ALL are God's, otherwise God cannot become All in all.
Where in Revelations does it say God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations?
Quote from: eaglesway on December 30, 2014, 07:34:23 PM
Where in Revelations does it say God will separate the sheep nations from the goat nations?
Oops! Matthew 25:32-33. My bad. :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth: :footmouth:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 30, 2014, 04:58:57 AM
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.
But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11
In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.
I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.
Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted :dontknow:
Quote from: Eduard on January 27, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 30, 2014, 04:58:57 AM
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.
But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11
In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.
I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.
Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted :dontknow:
I agree with you that many are still ''stuck in Babylon '' that being prisoners
Remember that Israel was for 70 years that to me is symbolic of a lifetime on the earth
Every knee will bow /surrender and tongue confess JESUS IS LORD!!!
THE CROSS made Him the power of GOD to be the MASTER of the dead and the living till God be all in all :HeartThrob:
LORD of lords and KING of kings the TOTAL AND COMPLETE AUTHORITY /HEADSHIP
Quote from: Eduard on January 27, 2015, 10:02:20 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 30, 2014, 04:58:57 AM
I think they are right that God will only save people who repent.
But I also believe, "Every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." Phillippians 2:10,11
In other words, every being who ever rebelled will repent.
I believe John saw the promise of Philippians 2:9&10 fulfilled in the heavenly vision.
Rev 5:11-13
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."
13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying,
"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."
That is true, but the difference is that ET'ers claim that if you do not repent in this life, you cannot be saved. But they are ignoring the verses you posted :dontknow:
Yes, they are ignoring a lot of things. The nature of God. The many scriptures that testify to messiah redeeming all. The incongruity of the idea that God would destroy most everyone He created, much less torment them forever.
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
It does seem like it but there are people that seem more compassionate than me but will not have anything to do with checking out the truth of the salvation of everyone. Like most of my own relatives. I guess it's just not the right time yet.
but being yet carnal babes..they have divisions[not holding ALL things in common with All men] as ALL have bore
the image of the corrupt one[the saints were overcome] so,too,shall ALL bear the image of the incorrupt one.
That 'image' will be when God writes[work of His hands] His law of LOVE in their hearts and minds...and they will
then Love God in truth/knowing Him..that He has taken away all of their sin..and is not counting their trespasses
against them...and they will..then...LOVE their brother's as themselves....not counting their trespasses against them...
knowing that they,too,in ignorance and rebellion..in times past have done so.
having bound up all men in disobedience....in order to show mercy/grace unto them all.
EW...I disagree with it not showing UR or US. and I do also acknowledge your light on how men shepherds should behave
when sheep stray. But you must also take into account that the 'shepherds' do not OWN THE SHEEP..and that is why
they 'flee' from the salvation of ALL men[prodigals] when they behold the 'wolf' coming. Because of increasing lawlessness
their love cools. But the 'GOOD" Shepherd[only God is good] OWNS THE SHEEP...the coin/sheep/son had a rightful
'OWNER" God 'OWNS" His creation and all it's creatures.....by taking into account this 'ownership' in the parables
I believe it does support UR OR US and dis ET or salvation of just a few.
God the Owner of riches[whole creation as coin lost/small part of His creation as coin lost]
God the 'owner' of flock of sheep[you men are the sheep of my pasturage] and not willing to suffer a portion of the loss of
His flock.
God as a Father..rejoicing and celebrating and honouring the restoration of His son,back to himself.
it gets real personal when it's 'yours' LOVE IS VERY VERY PERSONAL..and the loss of something you value highly
moves you to take action. whether it is sweeping the floor to find it..searching for it..or going for to meet.
Luke 12 27"Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow[b] is thrown into the fire[/b], how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!
29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
God is the giver to all :Pray:
Quote from: UniversalSceptic on December 27, 2014, 09:39:34 PM
How do ETer's twist these two parables to fit with the Hell doctrine.
I believe they have taken the one scripture which could be seen as meaning, after death no chance to repent and believe.. which is when Jesus told the pharisees unless they repented they would die in their sins. Which to me means they will rise still in the carnal, imperfect and flawed, sinful nature.. (DOA) But surely judgment day will be a rather long day of intense review of all human history, a day of weeping and wailing even the gnashing of teeth.. so much terribleness done under the sun.. all reviewed, writing/deeply engraving His law on every heart, mind and psyche..
Quote from: rosered on January 30, 2015, 05:51:10 PM
Luke 12 27"Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.
28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow[b] is thrown into the fire[/b], how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith!
29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32"Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.
34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
God is the giver to all :Pray:
dear sister! I LOVE those verses.. some of my favorites.. especially, "consider the lilies, they neither spin nor toil but your heavenly Father clothes them.." :smile: ..even just "consider the lilies" - I must be wanting to see spring! :)
Quote from: sheila on January 29, 2015, 11:39:13 PM
EW...I disagree with it not showing UR or US. and I do also acknowledge your light on how men shepherds should behave
when sheep stray. But you must also take into account that the 'shepherds' do not OWN THE SHEEP..and that is why
they 'flee' from the salvation of ALL men[prodigals] when they behold the 'wolf' coming. Because of increasing lawlessness
their love cools. But the 'GOOD" Shepherd[only God is good] OWNS THE SHEEP...the coin/sheep/son had a rightful
'OWNER" God 'OWNS" His creation and all it's creatures.....by taking into account this 'ownership' in the parables
I believe it does support UR OR US and dis ET or salvation of just a few.
God the Owner of riches[whole creation as coin lost/small part of His creation as coin lost]
God the 'owner' of flock of sheep[you men are the sheep of my pasturage] and not willing to suffer a portion of the loss of
His flock.
God as a Father..rejoicing and celebrating and honouring the restoration of His son,back to himself.
it gets real personal when it's 'yours' LOVE IS VERY VERY PERSONAL..and the loss of something you value highly
moves you to take action. whether it is sweeping the floor to find it..searching for it..or going for to meet.
I don'tn think it serves well as a scriptural proof of UR because it speaks of leaving 99 righteous and going to retrieve 1 who has wandered from the flock. As a testimony of the redemptive nature of Messiah, maybe, but imo not a parable I would pull out as a scripture proof of the salvation of all, relating to how ETrs see it (opening post question) :o) :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on January 31, 2015, 11:13:25 AM
I don'tn think it serves well as a scriptural proof of UR because it speaks of leaving 99 righteous and going to retrieve 1 who has wandered from the flock. As a testimony of the redemptive nature of Messiah, maybe, but imo not a parable I would pull out as a scripture proof of the salvation of all, relating to how ETrs see it (opening post question) :o) :2c:
I think it does serve as Scriptural UR proof. The thing with parables is that the shouldn't be used beyond the what they try to teach.
Obviously the big (and only?) point of the parable is that the Good Shepherd goes for the full 100% while other shepherds likely see 99% as a very good score.
I think that's all the parable is about.
Of course all sort of negative things can be added. Sheep #100 already died. The shepherd didn't find the sheep. The shepherd falls of a cliff and all 100 sheep perish. The other 99 get eaten by wolves. The parable is only about animals; not humans. etc etc.
Likewise I can put a negative slant to the coin parable. While the woman searched for her coin she neglected her baby which died from lack of care.
The parables aren't intended as an scientific writing that covers all angles. It focusses one one point. All quite UR points.
- The shepherd isn't happy until He gets all sheep back into the fold.
- The woman keeps searching until she finds that coin (the lost sinner). She gives party that likely costs more than the coin itself :-)
- The father was happy when the son returned. Just happy. No judgements about his sins, wrongs, etc. Just a big hug and an even bigger party.
I see those parables as 3 chapters of one big parable/teaching. They have all one thing in common. Everything is returned where it should have been all the time. Kinda URish if you ask me....
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2015, 03:59:06 AM
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.
I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.
Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight! :winkgrin:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
As you already know from my previous post I disagree. I guess it depends on if you believe the shepherd
is able to find and the sheep and bring it back into the fold.
"is able" are keywords here. Shepherd Jesus goes looking for the lost sheep. Obviously not just to beg it it to return. To get the job done. It He able to do so? If you answer yes you proved UR. Why, how, when. None of that matters. The only thing that counts that the sheep is back home.
As for the flock being believers only. That's not Scriptural. Neither that the whole world is His flock. For starters "another flock" is mentioned. I let Scripture itself define Jesus' flock.
Matt 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said to them, Have I not been sent except to the sheep which went astray from the house of Israel?
The UR implications of the parable seem rather obvious to me. The definition of the flock is whole other (long) discussion.
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2015, 01:27:49 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2015, 03:59:06 AM
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.
I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.
Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight! :winkgrin:
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2015, 01:42:10 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on December 28, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
They justify it as a parable about a shepherd and his flock of believers. The sheep that wanders is already in the flock, it just wanders off into unrighteousness. The shepherd, rather than standing there and saying, "OK you unrighteous sheep. Wander off from me will ya? Well then it's hell for you buddy!"... leaves the 99 who are stable members of the flock and goes to recover the lost and threatened member of the flock.
In this parable, the Lord is teaching us how He reacts to our straying, and how he wants us to react as his disciples when we see others go astray.
As such it is not, in my opinion a parable that has much bearing upon ET vs UR.
As you already know from my previous post I disagree. I guess it depends on if you believe the shepherd is able to find and the sheep and bring it back into the fold.
"is able" are keywords here. Shepherd Jesus goes looking for the lost sheep. Obviously not just to beg it it to return. To get the job done. It He able to do so? If you answer yes you proved UR. Why, how, when. None of that matters. The only thing that counts that the sheep is back home.
As for the flock being believers only. That's not Scriptural. Neither that the whole world is His flock. For starters "another flock" is mentioned. I let Scripture itself define Jesus' flock.
Matt 10:6 But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matt 15:24 But he answered and said to them, Have I not been sent except to the sheep which went astray from the house of Israel?
The UR implications of the parable seem rather obvious to me. The definition of the flock is whole other (long) discussion.
"As for the flock being believers only." Amen
Jesus spoke of why He taught in the parables.......there's a difference in being righteous...and good...Jesus spoke of it....
hardly anyone would die for a righteous man............
you can be righteous and put to death without mercy......but God's 'GOODNESS" exceeds that.......mercy/grace far
exceeds 'righteousness' for this reason He says....he who judges without mercy[99 righteous] shall have his judgement
without mercy.
p.s. when the shepherd leaves the 99 righteous....they scatter and wander off,too! LOL!!!
can we fully appreciate the light in these parables without considering the covenant God made with ADAM/all men and the
promised seed? I don't think so........the law covenant was added...because of the increasing of sin. when God made covenant
to take out a people for 'special' possession of which the promised seed would come through..it was so this special possession
would be a 'Blessing' unto all the other's. How can that be so..if the 'special' people consider all the nations as 'cursed and cut
off from God "
Israel overcome,Christendom overcome....the Kingdom of heaven is like a woman that took a measure
of leaven and hid it in a bowl with three measures of flour. ....until all was leavened[with grace]
One would think,that those God have called to minister to the ALL that are to inherit salvation..would have divested
with the notion that any prodigals sinner man etc were cut off as the cursed from God. Don't we know that ALL ARE SAVED?
but are in ignorance of it,taken captive of the devil,blinded to it. This all will come in each their order..Christ dying for them
at the proper time..while they are still sinners.
I would also think that such called ones would have a servants heart in the matter..knowing that all men were bound up in sin
in order that grace be given unto all,and no flesh boast before God.all in Adam are prodigals. If God should want to use some
men as an example of dishonor and some as example's of honour..for His purpose of teaching..do we not know that
we have not come of ourselves..that the potter mars the vessel in his hands..makes some of honourable use and others
for common...according to his purpose.
Bless and curse not.......... do you not know Christ is our Sabbath? Our Rest? when man ceases from his own works of his hands
and rests in the completed works of God and His Christ. Lifting Christ and His finished work on the cross UP will
draw all men unto Him..behold the hand..behold the nail...engravened on the palms of God! Because of His great Love
ye sons of men are not consumed!!!!
Quote from: micah7:9 on January 31, 2015, 04:42:05 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on January 31, 2015, 01:27:49 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on January 28, 2015, 03:59:06 AM
I would think that if there was the slightest chance that Jesus reconciles all- that our testimony is true- anyone with a reasonable and compassionate mind would want to hear about it and to "study the scriptures to see if these things are true."
You seem to overlook the built in safety catch :-)
Even looking outside your doctrine isn't just rejecting the denomination but also doubting the word of God.
I think Christianity (and other religions) isn't much different from people voting. They just vote the way their parents did. When reading political discussions I often wonder why people voted the way they did. They want the opposite of what the the person they voted for wants to do. Or there are choices that are align better with their views. My point is that they never bothered to really look into things before they voted. Likewise I believe most Christians don't really know what their denomination is about. The just sit in their pew every sunday. They don't really know why they are in that denomination. The pastor said "And God said..." and that closes the matter for them. No need to search. No need to consider UR because the pastor clearly said that God clearly said most of humanity will end as firewood for the fires of hell.
Most don't really want to know. They are saved. All who aren't are to blame themselves. If UR is true there is no use looking into it because because then they are saved also. And more importantly: Superbowl is on TV tonight! :winkgrin:
:thumbsup:
I'm not speaking of doctrine or denomination. The shepherd knows those who are of His flock. He knows those wgho yearn for Him. His flock will eventually include all, but until that time, in order for a sheep to go astray it must first be in the fold. Paul wrote of this.
"If you find a brother or sister in a a fault, let those who are spiritual(meek, humble, loving, wise, discerning) among you restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering your own selves, lest you should stumble."
I do not believe His flock is made up of religious people. It is made up of loving people. Jesus was drawing a picture of the Pharisee's unrighteous judgment, juxtaposed against His heart to seek and save that which is lost. He will eventually save every last one- but as of now, there are those who are in the flock(he knows who they are) and there are those who think they are in the fold but are not, and there are those who don't care if there is a fold or who the shepherd is, and there are those who know and still do not care to be in the fold. So be it. God loves them all, the gentle sheperd will pursue and redeem everyone.
But really, unless I misunderstood the original post was concerning the parable as a proof text for UR. My response was not to all the fine line interpretations and extrapolations. it is not a clear proof text for UR- it can be applied in any of the three paradigms equally (UR, ET, ED)
But if a person thinks they are going after the lamb who has gone astray, when they are butting heads with a goat, or fighting a wolf, or wrestling with a dog, or confronting a sorcerer, or reproving a religionist, then they have no discernment- no matter how good their intentions are.
In such cases, only in the longest ultimate view of people already in the know of UR, is that parable a witness to UR(and as such it is beautiful), butt is not really a good proof text for persuading ETrs and EDrs imo, and I think that was the issue of the original post. And as Forest would say, "N thats all I got to say about that!" :o)