Souls Under the Altar

[Tom]

I think we are to speak the truth of the evangel and expect to be persecuted for it, but it's God's choice how and when we will die.

[dajomaco]

 :iagree:

I think we are to speak the truth of the evangel and expect to be persecuted for it, but it's God's choice how and when we will die.

:iagree:

[micah7:9]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."

Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.

"in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday."  This I believe is the real matter, the Spirit.
Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard
Rev 2:7  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith  unto the churches;
Rev 2:17  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Rev 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold
Rev 17:3  So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness
Rev 21:10  And he carried me away in the spirit
Rev 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: "   ...a door was opened in heaven, ..."      I have been on this forum enough to know that most, if not all believe[know] that "heaven" is not a geographical location, just as "hell" is not a geographical place, so what John received was "in the Spirit." I find Tony N to be very close to my given understanding.... my :2c: of understanding thus far.

"What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood." 
Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice. (Tony N)
Lev. 17: 11 for the soul of the flesh,  it is in the blood...

[eaglesway]

My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?

A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.

I have thought what purpose would there be in willing,
allowing myself to be killed for the cause of Christ.

Some early Christians hid in the catacombs.

Others (disciples openly declared Jesus) and where martyred.

I know the Spirit can give us courage to do all things.

Is there some kind of bonus for being Martyred?

Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

[rosered]

John 1124Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

I DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I DO BELIEVE THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY   IS THOSE  WHOM HAVE RISEN IN CHRIST   THE LIGHT  OF THE WORLD   AND ARE WITH HIM NOW !!  the firstfruits of those whom slept / rest in Hope / Jesus Christ is our only HOPE!! 
1 PETER 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,


Micah 7
  7But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation.


My God will hear me. 8Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the LORD is a light for me.


9I will bear the indignation of the LORD Because I have sinned against Him,


Until He pleads my case and executes justice for me. He will bring me out to the light, And I will see His righteousness

[joeteekay]

From WW post #63

John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.

My comment:

I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the  7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm.  Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO

:2c:

  Hi Joe    I thought about this for a  bit and considered  them to be the watchers  and of the Ancients   in Daniel they ate the ones determining  King Nebuchadnezzar

  sentence   watchers      Strong's H5894 - `iyr   the guardians   watchers   scriptures  in Daniel 4

  Hebrews 11;2  And by this there was a testimony/witness  concerning the ancients.

here is some of the scriptures concerning them


Dan 7:9   I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
  thrones cast down

lDan 7:13   I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
lDan 7:22   Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here are the remaining matches.
Job 12:12   With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
Psa 77:5   I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Isa 23:7   Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.
Isa 51:9   Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Rev 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  Just really do not know ,

  I did noticed some   it was for the testimony of Jesus being the new  testament and the     Word of God being of the old   testament ,
        but thought it was interesting

Hello Rose and all,

I have given more thought to what I posted about the Elders mentioned in Revelation (Unveiling) and to your thought about the watchers.

Rose, I found your reference to the word watcher (s) very intriguing  It is found in only 4 verses, 3 in Daniel The one in Jeremiah is not the same word in Hebrew so that one is not relevant.  So the concordances offer little to go on or to associate that with other scriptures.

IMO elders and watchers are not the same thing.  The elders mentioned in the Old Testament always referred to people, not spirit beings.  They were typically folk who had wisdom from a long life  and experience and were on councils or in senates to make decisions.  Hebrew word H1419 and H2205.

But the watcher(s) appear to be spirit beings who are from heaven (Dan 4:13, 23) quite different than elders.  What is their role and purpose?  However I tend to agree with you when you state that they are to ones determining (looking over?) King Nebuchadnezzar.

This story about King Nebuchadnezzar is amazing.  It is a miracle that the kingdom would be restored to Nebuchadnezzar after 7 years since it would be "normal"  for a general, satrap or a strong usurper to take over as ruler and have the deranged king put to death. Obviously, God was preventing this from happening.  Possibly the watchers were involved in this process and also possibly God  had Daniel installed as the temporary sovereign.

So IMO the watchers are spirit beings who are not well explained to us in scripture. Could they be Michael, Gabriel, other Messengers?  Maybe, but not likely?

When I look at the word watcher (H5894) in the Hebrew/Aramaic, it looks very much like the Hebrew word eyes H5870.

Watcher =  (H5894) עִיר     Eyes  =  (H5870)  עַיִן

If this is so then the word eye(s) has an interesting association to the verses in Revelation 4 and 5 where eyes are mentioned.

Rev_4:6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev_4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev_5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Perhaps these eyes (watchers?) can go to and fro throughout the earth according to God's purpose.

The word Ancient is an interesting study too.. Rose you mentioned Dan. 7:9, 13 and 22 where the Ancient of days is found. Here in Daniel Ancient is translated from H6268.  Once again, the only place this word is found is in the book of Daniel in 3 verses.

All translations I have looked at translate H6268 as Ancient except for the CLV, which translates the word as Transferrer in English.

Either way I believe the Ancient of Days in the 3 verses in Daniel refers to God the Father.  How so?  Dan. 7:13 and 7:22:

Dan 7:13  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

In verse 13 the son of man (Jesus Christ) is coming—not to the earth, but to the Ancient of Days ( Father in heaven)—with the clouds of heaven. Yes, it's a vision but a vision of a future event described in Rev. 4:11 and  5:12-13.

Christ receives all power and all authority and with Him are the resurrected saints.  No longer is Satan the god of this eon (Rev. 12:9).

Dan 7:14  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Dan 7:22  Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

I put a lot of stuff in this post and probably covers much more than the original post by Jabcat sought concerning "souls under the alter"

Perhaps this post should be more appropriately put into word studies?  :dontknow:

[eaglesway]

the presbuteros of God is scattered throughout the scripture.

1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Zech 3:6 And the angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.


Amos 3;7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.

Psalms 82:1 God stands in the assembly [of the representatives] of God; in the midst of the magistrates or judges He gives judgment [as] among the gods.(Amplified)(Elohim judges the el in the assembly of the elohim; or the Alimighty judges the mighty in the assembly of the mighty)

There is a sense available from many sources in scripture that God reigns in council. This is His pleasure, and a privilege for those who ascend(by grace and election) into His presence. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.  "The one who overcomes will sit with me on my Father's throne"...."will inherit all things"

Paul made it clear, imo, that he exercised authority in the presence of God, from the "throne room".

These 24 elders are like a select group, elect, chosen, to the council of God in the inner court, but they are also symbolic of the presbuterion in any assembly in any generation, those who draw near to the throne of God, those to whom He gives "charge over my courts", those who walk among the stones of fire..... as in,...

"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant

As you get closer to the throne, there are the souls under the altar, the 24 elders that surround the throne(casting their crowns before Him)- imo these all represent Pauls Philippians statement

Phil 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that or which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

When John and James Mom asked the Lord Jesus to put them at His right and left(as the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth, the two olive trees) He replied that that was not His to give but was for them to whom it was appointed/predestined. I think the 24 elders and the souls beneath the altar are like that, and I think in every generation God has those who stand in His councils by election and those who don't.

IMO these are pictures of the throneroom, the heavenly innermost court, the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus where all spiritual blessings abound" -  in the earth in the now for disciples to see how the veil is torn and how the ecclesia ar manifested as the tabernacle of God under the headship of Jesus. Like, "The Bride 'coming down from out of heaven'" even as Jesus said, "I am the bread of life that comes down out of heaven".

[rosered]

 
  Wow! Thanks JOE!!  and John for expounding    on this
Love studying on the 7   Spirits Eyes !      seven eyes on ONE STONE /JESUSCHRIST   Listen to what the Spirit is saying to the  churches being 7  or the fulness of

Zech  3 ...8'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you-- indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in My servant the Branch. 9'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua; on one stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"
   Do you think its the  white stone and  new name in Rev 3  ?

There sure is a difference when you   compare  between   the two types !!! :thumbsup:
Gods will be done on earth as it is in Heaven  :cloud9:

  I found this interesting to  bro

this is the same description in Isaiah 6 Isaiah Becomes a Prophet
6 In the year that King Uzziah died [C 740 bc], I saw the Lord sitting on a ·very high [L high and exalted] throne. ·His long [L The train/trailing part of his] robe filled the Temple. 2 ·Heavenly creatures of fire [L Seraphim; C the word means "burning ones" and points to purity, power, or judgment] ·stood above [or attended] him [Rev. 4:6–9]. Each creature had six wings: It used two wings to cover its face [C as a shield from God's awesome glory], two wings to cover its ·feet [or body; C indicating humility; "feet" can be a euphemism for genitals], and two wings for flying. 3 Each creature was calling to the others:

"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord ·All-Powerful [Almighty; of Heaven's Armies; T of hosts].
    His glory fills the whole earth."
4 ·Their calling [The sound/noise from each one's voice] caused the ·frame around the door [doorposts; threshold foundations] to shake, as the Temple filled with smoke.

Rev_4:8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev_5:6  And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

  There is sooooo  much to learn     I am amazed every day!!!! 

[eaglesway]

I think the white stone and the new name are in the same vein. Sort of like David's mighty men of valor, he was surrounded by concentric rings of mightier and mightier warriors. as we grow in sonship various aspects of the ministry of Christ become ours.

Jesus the warrior/priest/shepherd/king is our David, and gives the "key of David"- the open door that no man can shut,

Jesus is the Light and walks among the Lampstands, holding the "stars"(presbyteries) in His hand, and I believe the 144,000, the 24 elders that surround the throne, the two anointed ones/olive trees etc., etc, are all aionian images of the actual heavenly tabernacle that is being fitly joined together, living stone by living stone, beyond the veil.

I also believe that if the elders in local churches(city-wide ecclesia, not denominations) could see this, and would order themselves accordingly, the glory of God would return to the temple in their city and their Lampstand would be exalted.  :2c:

[rosered]

I think the white stone and the new name are in the same vein. Sort of like David's mighty men of valor, he was surrounded by concentric rings of mightier and mightier warriors. as we grow in sonship various aspects of the ministry of Christ become ours.

Jesus the warrior/priest/shepherd/king is our David, and gives the "key of David"- the open door that no man can shut,

Jesus is the Light and walks among the Lampstands, holding the "stars"(presbyteries) in His hand, and I believe the 144,000, the 24 elders that surround the throne, the two anointed ones/olive trees etc., etc, are all aionian images of the actual heavenly tabernacle that is being fitly joined together, living stone by living stone, beyond the veil.

I also believe that if the elders in local churches(city-wide ecclesia, not denominations) could see this, and would order themselves accordingly, the glory of God would return to the temple in their city and their Lampstand would be exalted.  :2c:

   :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

The question from Jabcat OP...""Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?"

I had no thought as to who or what these "souls" are, I still wonder, yet I can offer what I believe and understand......these "breaths/lives" are the very ones who continued on, those who stood and stand, yes they maybe us, you, me, those who stand and die for Christ. I believe John saw what was produced from the Teachings of The Anointed who stood believing to their death; as we pray we are. He saw and heard the voices of the Redeemed.....waiting as as the Psalmist wrote...How long oh Lord HOW LONG.
I offer only how I understand and that is what is considered an opinion. Still I pray, in my house of clay, How long oh Lord...How Long :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

..I think the souls under the altar are like the blood of Abel which cried out to God from the Earth.. Of which Abel had nothing to do with and was not there.. I think the fifth seal (the fifth main element of the latter age) is the element of martyrdom, which like all the seals continues and progresses throughout the age (of the years of our Lord, a.d.?)

[joeteekay]

I agree marie glen.
:thumbsup:

[rosered]

  I so wish I could see it that way      ,  but sadly I do not
I have found a lot of scripture support    on the raising the dead
and I am convinced   Jesus Christ abolished death     that this is exactly what Jesus did on the cross when He  said it is finished   
I do believe He is the   ONE AND ONLY     one with the keys /unlocking      the holding  place of the dead and those whom die in Christ never die  they are   raised into the GLORY OF GOD  Immediately  of   the  mortal  body of death  upon death
these have the crown of Life     promised in the Revelations of Christ      I would even go as far as to say  some have this  already before the mortal body is even  separated   at death of mortality , those whom consider their bodies dead already     by faith  in Jesus Christ Cross  and promise of eternal Life in them ...
Life and death are in the power of the tongue         , I do believe some speak Words of Life and the spoken Word is the LIVING WORD OF GOD , This cannot ever die
it is the immortality spoken of         Being Spirit and Truth and its   within us all whom it has been Given of the   Lord   of the Living and the dead     
I would even go as far as to say I have been dead    to God and Jesus raised  me up into Life by His own  SPIRIT   and it has happened  more than a few times already       , I do believe you begin to KNOW the difference     
  the Justified LIVE BY FAITH            in what  the power of the   HOLY SPIRIT     anoints you with  ''the Christ ''anointing '',   in you the hope of glory of the Lord ''    ''   as more is given    or taken away or simply used up    for His own purpose

  I am  concerned many are waiting for some big thing to happen and come later in another age  ,  when it is promised now and may miss out because they are not

ready to receive   HIM     Hebrews  9    ;28       the first time     Jesus comes none are aware of Him      because we are dead     in sin      and the dead know  nothing ,,      I did not know at the time   what was happening    ....    But I am one to tell you   He does come again   bringing LIFE   IN THE SPIRIT     to us  and the increase of God    is with Him and so  is the  ''all things '' judgment   etc    , so many   things we have to  work out and though in HIM   

  27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
  we have so many examples in the Word  of God
  those under the altar     were waiting for Jesus to abolish    death at the cross!!   How can I say this with  such boldness  of speech ?   Jesus come in the fulness of times ! the very center of the   all things going out from Him and now they are going back into HIM   and not void  !     


  Because it says Blessed is he who dies in the Lord from now on    you rest in your labours   and the WORKS  FOLLOW   , THE GREATER WORKS WILL YOU DO BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER     !!
Who dies in the Lord ?     dont you know !   ,  those who are baptised unto His death  are in the newness of Life now !

   Romans 6 ...2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4  Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

  you are not the same    creatures   those souls  breaths  of old Adam  any longer !  there was no difference between   the animal  natures  and mankind    in the beginning   they all run on the seat [authority ] of their own  survival  instinct   beast natures !  we see this daily in the world    , those who kill and eat  , devour one another    for  greedy  gain and power to   subject  to their to their own     ways of thinking !     and gang mentality

Why they don't even love their own kind , much less an enemy or   easy prey !
  this is what you are delivered from        , the roaming and devouring      and seeking   Lion of satan /opposition      the flesh is  consumed  in the sense of  destroying one another , crushing faith and hope and love and  goodness     and mercy and all those  HOLY THINGS   it lacks !

  We  fight off the urges to  KILL     and    thou shall not kill  ,   and seal   and keep the Sabbath holy  /Jesus holy  not bring Him down to the  earthly  sensual and devilish  mentality     crafty snares of    wisdom of the world !!  etc
Jesus is now destroying  Babylon   ,  the lies and  traps and    false images     and idolatry  when this is done its DONE   , the wrath of God is complete

in tearing down  and slaying  and burning  all things that offend   ,  every unholy  abomination and hated thing  sin ever   held captive

  what is sin ? to KNOW  to do good and not do it !  we are to do as much good as possible with God and all things are possible with God !
  we are to grow up in Christ .    that anointing always the doing the Fathers will    /desire  , not our own desires ,          the smearing  of the HOLY SPIRIT[oil]  AND FIRE      that Lights up the world and sets it on fire  with the Fire of Gods consuming       the ONE AND ONLY LIVING GOD    FOR ALL  TIME

Can we by Faith speak this into    becoming a reality  , GODS WORD SAYS HE SPOKE IT AND IT WAS SO!!     
  Without faith in asking we shall receive nothing  as a reality   

we pray in secret   to the FATHER IN JESUS NAME and He will do it !!  ask in faith not doubting it  , or the wind  blows it in all directions /scattering   James 1

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

  the Power of God and His Kingdom are   here and now   to be used   to destroy the evil  within and without     !! 
we are to clean the inside first ,,,   that you can be useful TO GODS GLORY   , for cleaning out all around you by the POWER OF THE SPIRIT AND TRUTH     

[micah7:9]

I agree Rosered, even though I do not have your assemblage of words.

[rosered]

I agree Rosered, even though I do not have your assemblage of words.

:dsunny:

After reading Hebrews 9  and      seeing that its read with   dying once   than Judgment how in the world is he going to appear a second time   without  the sin issue  for salvation  if its not  now    as we wait on him ?
It does not make any sense  if your in the   literal grave does it ?Romans 7 ...5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, [Judgment begins in the House of God ]

28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

[Molly]

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

---Heb 9:28


This is a picture of the High Priest coming out of the Holy of Holies and saying to the congregation waiting for him in the Tabernacle in the wilderness,  'Your sins are forgiven.'    When the High Priest would go into the Most Holy Place, the congregation would wait with bated breath to see if he died in there [their sins not forgiven] or if he returned with the good news.


6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,..

--Heb 9



There is certainly a lot going on here, and yes, much of it is available to us now.   But, we are being saved in stages, the outer court to the Most Holy place, spirit, soul, and body.   And, body is the last to be saved.


22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

--Romans 8



We have not seen this yet and will not see it until the High Priest comes out of the Most Holy place, where he sits now at the right hand of God,  to appear to those who are awaiting him.   Then we will be given the new wineskins of the immortal body, the flesh and bone body that the Messiah himself wore after the resurrection.   

I believe this is a specific event, which is why I now believe the rapture will happen when he returns for his bride at the feast of Trumpets.


51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:


"Death is swallowed up in victory."

55
"O death, where is your victory?
    O death, where is your sting?

--1 Cor 15





But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

--1 Cor 15:57

[rosered]

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

---Heb 9:28


This is a picture of the High Priest coming out of the Holy of Holies and saying to the congregation waiting for him in the Tabernacle in the wilderness,  'Your sins are forgiven.'    When the High Priest would go into the Most Holy Place, the congregation would wait with bated breath to see if he died in there [their sins not forgiven] or if he returned with the good news.


6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,..

--Heb 9



There is certainly a lot going on here, and yes, much of it is available to us now.   But, we are being saved in stages, the outer court to the Most Holy place, spirit, soul, and body.   And, body is the last to be saved.

  Beautiful MOLLY!!!!      yes I see this as long as the tabernacle is still standing !
   for me the key word is  still standing  ,   the man of sin standing in the Holy Place is where it ought not be , remember ?

Jesus  example was  that , laying down your life   for your friends ,  He laid it down for His enemies !!  none  were not reconciled to God yet !

  Abraham    considered His body as good as dead    , this is the kind of faith that has real substance   to it , the Hope is alive Hebrews 11 ,;12
  and Romans 4;And Abraham's faith did not weaken, even though, at about 100 years of age, he ... in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he ... And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead

Lust of the flesh is what  stumbles us all   sis !  that rising desire to   self  serving for whatever reason  it may be .
  Jesus come to  serve not be served
 
  sleeping  means  simply to me  , in that sorrowful state of sin sickness  and  overcome with  guilt    and doubts.. it opposes    faith
it  literally works against faith   
and allows satan  / adversity    in thinking   of accusing everyone including yourself      your unworthiness  to approach God  and the throne of grace as boldly as we should    , you will hide amongst the trees as Adam did in His day  and cover yourself with fig leaves  , the Law  of sin exposes the nakedness of being mortal   flesh and blood and no  flash and blood enters the  Kingdom
  thus the saying Jesus says    , Matt 23
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.


  the letter of the Law is a killer of faith  in Jesus Christ ,  none  can keep the law, its Spiritual  in nature  , and is the enmity against   the natural man

no man can  get it      ,  thus the need to be Born again of Spirit this one is the only one who can enter ,,'' the Christ'' anointed by God in you the hope of Glory is the only one allowed      the one of a kind offspring of the one of a kind Son of God     that come as the Son of Man to make the path  narrow and straight    to God

Gen 28   And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!
prophesied !!
John 1 ;51 And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."
fulfilled in Christ !!    Jesus Christ is the only  one and  only  way   we shall  see God !!   
the deposit   of the Spirit  in Jesus  must grow by the increase of God,   into the man that is of an angel  BEING    messengers and the rising and falling of many in ISRAEL   the Christ is the anointing of the Holy Spirit   and fire His Law/Truth  is a  fire !
  as the lies are  consumed

   

[marie glen]

I see it as possible that believers are resurrected (fully into new life and put on immortality) during death (which I however think of as nonlife, as the past believers are referred to as - "dead in Christ who will rise before the living believers at His return").

Does this mean nonbelievers go into the LOF at death (immediately)? before judgment? {I however think only a few very stubborn hold outs will even go there.. for agelasting; end of Isaiah 52 says kings will hear what they have not heard and believe what they have not believed. When?} 

We are all waiting for Him, if I die before He comes/returns, I have still been waiting for Him, and will awaken in that state.

To me it seems illogical that "hades" a greek vision which was translated into the greek from the original aramaic (which I assume would be closer to the vision of "sheol" where "there is neither thought nor doing") is a place where ppl are alive and around for thousands of years waiting.. seems a bit disorganized to me, and I think of God (Yahweh/Father) as very organized. I think of that first lie, or one of the first, "surely you won't die?" as being lodged very deeply in the human psyche.. thus visions of the dead, etc, and many thinking rescue from death, and its cause, imperfection, is not needed.
                                 :smile:

Either way, doesn't really matter.. but I hope martyrs from long ago are not all "under the altar" for 1000++ years..

[rosered]

I see it as possible that believers are resurrected (fully into new life and put on immortality) during death (which I however think of as nonlife, as the past believers are referred to as - "dead in Christ who will rise before the living believers at His return").

Does this mean nonbelievers go into the LOF at death (immediately)? before judgment? {I however think only a few very stubborn hold outs will even go there.. for agelasting; end of Isaiah 52 says kings will hear what they have not heard and believe what they have not believed. When?} 

We are all waiting for Him, if I die before He comes/returns, I have still been waiting for Him, and will awaken in that state.

To me it seems illogical that "hades" a greek vision which was translated into the greek from the original aramaic (which I assume would be closer to the vision of "sheol" where "there is neither thought nor doing") is a place where ppl are alive and around for thousands of years waiting.. seems a bit disorganized to me, and I think of God (Yahweh/Father) as very organized. I think of that first lie, or one of the first, "surely you won't die?" as being lodged very deeply in the human psyche.. thus visions of the dead, etc, and many thinking rescue from death, and its cause, imperfection, is not needed.
                                 :smile:

Either way, doesn't really matter.. but I hope martyrs from long ago are not all "under the altar" for 1000++ years..

  Well I do want to see it  right
  but have always thought this place is the    mass of graves    being dead to God because of sin  we can see so easily in the world   
  the chaos   the world is in   proves to me this is the    fires  pit of hell /hades  the unseen is because no man knows
  only the sons of God    will ever know what the Father is doing...
Everything Jesus told us and done was from watching His Father  and speaking His Fathers words 
   He claimed nothing of Himself , only saying  my Father and I are ONE     
ONE SPIRIT ,ONE FAITH. ONE HOPE. ONE BAPTISM,  ONE BODY  etc

When Jesus was  baptised     He was bringing judgment to the world and dividing it  than    by the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE   , this world is on fire   those elements are being dissolved        they are the elemenrty things    that are custom  in ritual   and  work of mens hands  that are in the  melting cauldron     of this world   

HEBREWS    6 is going on into completeness/perfection  of Gods working on many   right now
  we have to be brought low in order to be  raised up again into Christ ,  in my opinion   
all of HEBREWS explains the     change  in the twinkling of an eye    from being bound     to being set free  in Jesus Christ     and being matured   by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love  for His OWN  KIND    the sons of God   to the glory of  the Father   OUR one and the SAME God     

its a small lot  but it is a great start   and HE will finish what He started       
 

[eaglesway]

With the Lord, a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. if the souls under the altar ar reallt there in the heavenlies now, I am sure they are not crowded into a holding chamber tucked under some literal huge altar  :laugh:

Whatever their state(if the passage is not entirely metaphoric in nature), I am sure they are enrapt in the presence of the Lord they are doin ok  :o).

Me, I tend to think "under the altar" refers to the saints being martyred in the NOW of every generation and their cry for retribution(how unspiritual :laugh:), rising like smoke from Sodom, or Abel's blood from the earth- but i also think it is possible that it is actually an "abode" in the heavenlies for the spirits of martyrs, such as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion. I think it likely that both are true, as the heavenly is interwoven with the earthly in more ways that we understand.

[rosered]

With the Lord, a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. if the souls under the altar ar reallt there in the heavenlies now, I am sure they are not crowded into a holding chamber tucked under some literal huge altar  :laugh:

Whatever their state(if the passage is not entirely metaphoric in nature), I am sure they are enrapt in the presence of the Lord they are doin ok  :o).

Me, I tend to think "under the altar" refers to the saints being martyred in the NOW of every generation and their cry for retribution(how unspiritual :laugh:), rising like smoke from Sodom, or Abel's blood from the earth- but i also think it is possible that it is actually an "abode" in the heavenlies for the spirits of martyrs, such as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion. I think it likely that both are true, as the heavenly is interwoven with the earthly in more ways that we understand.

I have found a lot of answers in the  Law and prophets  that explain   many of the   scriptures of  Revelations already , Just  looking into them though
 
  Like King Nebuchadnezzar is one of those heads [on the  Dragon ]  that was wounded , but was healed   Daniel  4  I think
I believe the Bible explains itself      , this is just my opinion though

  Thank you for your answer   John    , no man knows only the Spirit of prophecy Knows and that is Jesus Christ  witness / testimony and those    whom  He reveals it , by opening the scriptures and seals of the Book  by His Own Spirit

[marie glen]

  but have always thought this place is the    mass of graves    being dead to God because of sin  we can see so easily in the world   
  the chaos   the world is in   proves to me this is the    fires  pit of hell /hades

I agree, the way i might express it is, apocalypse (in it's modern meaning of collapse) began when the forbidden (wrong way) was first plucked..

HEBREWS    6 is going on into completeness/perfection  of Gods working on many   right now
  we have to be brought low in order to be  raised up again into Christ ,  in my opinion   
all of HEBREWS explains the     change  in the twinkling of an eye    from being bound     to being set free  in Jesus Christ     and being matured   by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love  for His OWN  KIND    the sons of God   to the glory of  the Father   OUR one and the SAME God     

its a small lot  but it is a great start   and HE will finish what He started       

Amen! He will finish what He started.. was it Paul who said we are "not yet perfected".. He will bring it to pass..  the "power at work in us is the same as rose Jesus from the grave' and parted the red Sea..
                  :icon_flower:

[marie glen]

"the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion.

:smile: :smile:
I think of the "great congregation" as the totality of all of us, when all is said and done.. Tho I don't think it's impossible that the dead in Christ are in a different dimension or form of life, I think of it, when Jesus said He would raise us up at the last day (when He raised Lazarus) that it was a total thing, the resurrection that is. saved at the first resurrection and His return, the second of the unsaved "after the thousand years are ended". {The verse, imo, says a thousand years to God, is as a day, not is a day.} The spirit which returns to God i think of as the life force, and or breath.. and the lower part of the earth as the dust of the grave.. tartarus as chains of darkness, not a place, in that having become imperfect could not reverse their course and become again perfect.. and think of Jesus via the Spirit preaching to those who perished at the flood, did so while the ark was being prepared, preached to them that is, not went to hades while three nights and days in the grave and preached, which is the common perception.. Just my way of seeing it, and can't seem to get an different picture of it.. I don't however debate the issue with folks when at their loved ones funeral, for instance! :o :smile:

[rosered]

  but have always thought this place is the    mass of graves    being dead to God because of sin  we can see so easily in the world   
  the chaos   the world is in   proves to me this is the    fires  pit of hell /hades

I agree, the way i might express it is, apocalypse (in it's modern meaning of collapse) began when the forbidden (wrong way) was first plucked..

HEBREWS    6 is going on into completeness/perfection  of Gods working on many   right now
  we have to be brought low in order to be  raised up again into Christ ,  in my opinion   
all of HEBREWS explains the     change  in the twinkling of an eye    from being bound     to being set free  in Jesus Christ     and being matured   by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love  for His OWN  KIND    the sons of God   to the glory of  the Father   OUR one and the SAME God     

its a small lot  but it is a great start   and HE will finish what He started       

Amen! He will finish what He started.. was it Paul who said we are "not yet perfected".. He will bring it to pass..  the "power at work in us is the same as rose Jesus from the grave' and parted the red Sea..
                  :icon_flower:

:dsunny: