Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
I believe some would likely see this as mystical/"only having spiritual/symbolic meaning within the believer", etc...Others, do you see these as literal martyrs, if so, what point in history..also, if truly/literally/completely "the dead know nothing", what's going on with these souls? They certainly seem to be aware..thoughts?
That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.
Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?
So, from a literalist like myself--
These are the end times martyred saints calling for Jesus to judge the earth.
See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;
he will ruin its face
and scatter its inhabitants—
2
it will be the same
for priest as for people,
for the master as for his servant,
for the mistress as for her servant,
for seller as for buyer,
for borrower as for lender,
for debtor as for creditor.
3
The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The Lord has spoken this word.
--Isa 24
We see this is happening at the time of the fifth seal. Does everyone have their opinion of what the seals are? My opinion is that the seals close a document which is the will giving the quitclaim deed of the earth [among other things] to Christ and his co-inheritors, the saints. When the 7th seal is open, the time has come for everything to belong to Christ and his saints.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
--Mat 5:5
The answer given to the saints is "a little while." The time is close.
We see they are crying with 'a loud voice.' It is a voice meant to be heard by those on earth, and by that 'number of their fellow servants and their brethren' who are still being perfected.
When this happens, it is almost the time of what Paul called, 'the fulfillment of the Gentiles.'
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
That can't be explained without understanding large parts of Revelation.(and the order of chapters which are chronological but only when viewed trough a shape of a Menorah)
Under doesn't mean underneath but at the base of the altar which was huge. Priests had to climb some stairs to reach the top of the altar.
The people at the base of the altar just brought a sacrifice the priest puts on the Altar of Burned offering.
The people are given a white robe. Male wedding guests, including the groom, worn a wedding garment called a kittel. It looks a little similar to a bath-robe. The kittel is also worn during Passover and Yom Kippur sacrifices by the priests. Kittel is rooted in the word katal, to slay. The white garments are also linked to war.
Those people are the same as those in the 7th seal. (Silence)
There was music, song and dance in the Temple during the daylight hours. Twice a day there was a silence of 30 minutes. Everybody fell on the face and prayed in silence. Everybody was mainly/also the people would brought a sacrifice. The saints at the base of the altar.
In the previous seal they were told to wait. That's a chronological hint. It links the events to a festival date.
Seven Trumpets were only used during the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles.
During the Temple service trumpets were sounded at 7 times a day.
4 during the morning service. Trumpet 1-4
The other 3 are the 3 Woes of revelation.
The souls at the base of the altar had to wait. This is what they had to wait for. Dressed in white and ready for battle.
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on November 17, 2014, 07:37:33 AM
Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?
Most of Revelation is just the daily Temple service retold in a rather special way.
Can things be taken literal? That depends on what you call literal.
I'll give a few example and let you decide.
Ships are people spreading God's Word. One third gets killed.
Rivers are fresh living water. The true religion/teachings. They are made bitter with satanic lies. --> Paganism
While it's possible literal ships get destroyed and rivers made bitter during war I think it's not the primary meaning.
So there will be no literal ships destroyed but faith will be literally destroyed. Some things are defined in the OT. Others are just saying the same thing over and over again.
The thing is RG, Revelation can't be understood without knowing the hidden meaning of words. Take for example angels restraining the wind. Wind is just a other name for the HS. Restrained wind means restrained blessings. But there is just one HS. But the angles are holding 4.... HS also represents God's power/authority. A Jewish prayer shawl had tassels on its 4 corners signifying God's power --> HS. The angels were holding the prayer shawl. During marriage ceremony a prayer shawl was stretched out over the couple. The couple received blessings not terror. So when mixing all hidden meanings together 4 angels restraining the wind means:
a] Extra bad times for the wicked. No more blessings to temper evil.
b] Saints are covered/protected.
c] Wedding stuff.
And that's just the beginning. There are a great many similar things in Revelation. Revelationn = Temple service + marriage.
Literal? You decide. :friendstu:
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 17, 2014, 07:19:55 AM
That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
Avenge us!
Rest a little while longer.
There is more to be killed.
I see a turmoil of murder, a desire for making it right(revenge, justice?), and then,
rest a little while longer.
These souls don't seem to be at rest.................they are a bit impatient (how long?), and want justice.
"Being slain for the word of God, and for the the testimony they held". Maybe in a way that would be everyone of us who have been crucified with Christ?
I agree with Molly and Laz. I think they are the souls of the martyrs crying to be avenged (Matthew 24:9; Revelation 2:10, 12:10,11, 20:4).
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 17, 2014, 02:28:18 PM
Quote from: Lazarus Short on November 17, 2014, 07:19:55 AM
That is not so different from the story in Genesis where God informs Cain that his brother's blood calls out from the ground.
:thumbsup:
"Wedding stuff"--this post meant to follow WW's post.
The last sealing takes place in Revelation 7.
After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
--Rev 7
And, at this time we see the multitudes in heaven. They have been raptured before the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation. For we are not subject to wrath.
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.
--Revelation 7
They will be in heaven for the reading of the will at the opening of the 7th seal. Beneficiaries are always present for the reading of the will.
They are the armies [clouds of witnesses] who return with the Lord of Hosts to claim [reclaim] their inheritance.
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.
--Revelation 10
A Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time....--1 Peter 1
Worthy is the Lamb
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz5F4ntVKvU
For me there is not easy answer to explain this ,
and some good stuff from the group !!
James you ask an excellent question , we all wonder at ! years of looking and seeking and asking God to help us understand HIS Mystery and Will
We know the book of Revelations is a special book that testifies of the 3 times the past , present and future , for me its always been like the Key of David and mercy that unlocks the sealed up books all of them
This testimony is Jesus Christ GOD Speaking thought the Son of Man , Jesus Christ by the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY the past being filled as now and to come
always this is in effect who are those souls/ living creatures that LIVE and yet died in the Lord ? Rev 14 verse 13 for me but its not as simple as who as it is to why
Rev14 9 Then a third angel followed the first two angels, saying in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his ·idol [image] and ·gets [receives; takes] the beast's ·mark [brand; stamp] on the forehead or on the hand,
10 that one also will drink the wine of God's anger [C perhaps a play on words with v. 8; Babylon's "passion" will bring on God's "wrath"], which is prepared ·with all its strength [undiluted; L unmixed; C wine was often mixed with water] in the cup of his anger [C God's judgment is often portrayed in the OT as a "cup" of wine poured out; Jer. 25:15–29]. And that person will be ·put in pain [tortured; tormented] with ·burning sulfur [L fire and sulfur] before the holy angels and the Lamb.
11 And the smoke from their ·burning pain [torture; torment] will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest, day or night, for those who worship the beast and his ·idol [image] or who get the ·mark [brand; stamp] of his name."
12 This means ·God's holy people [T the saints] must ·be patient [persevere; endure]. They must ·obey [keep] God's commands and ·keep their faith in [remain faithful to] Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Write this: ·Blessed [or Happy] are the dead who die from now on in the Lord."
The Spirit says, "Yes, they will rest from their hard work, ·and the reward of all they have done stays with them [L for their deeds will follow them]."
For me , there is great irony in all this The very things I have searched and looked into and shared with others doing the same thing !!
Not realizing this but was still in Babylon , this confusion and it still has its power on me to some degree that not being able to rest not knowing the end from the beginning
Here is what I have discovered very recently and still don't know to simplify , because that is what gives some of us rest making it "settled" within us and Knowing the truth that does set us free
God is amazing in how He says things !! that is no joke ! just being as serious as I can be here
knowing Gods will is our rest and hope ALIVE and we are not in rest when we do not know it !... this is the simple answer
There are certain chapters that explain each other from the old and new that say the same things or connect to each other perfectly
and the understanding in them that goes with them are the rest in Jesus Christ
comparing spiritual WORDS with spiritual UNDERSTANDING 1Corinthians 2 is so truthful of God's Wisdom
6 However, we speak wisdom to those who are mature. But this wisdom is not from this ·world [age] or from the rulers of this ·world [age], who ·are losing their power [will soon disappear; are passing away]. 7 We speak God's ·secret wisdom [or wisdom in a mystery; 2:1], which he has kept hidden. Before the ·world began [ages], God ·planned [decreed; destined] this wisdom for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this ·world [age] understood it. If they had, they would not have crucified the ·Lord of glory [glorious Lord]. 9 But as it is written in the Scriptures:
"No ·one [L eye] has ever seen this,
and no ·one [L ear] has ever heard about it.
No ·one [L human heart] has ever imagined
what God has prepared for those who love him [Is. 64:4]."
10 But God has ·shown [revealed to] us these things through the Spirit.
[L For] The Spirit ·searches out [examines; scrutinizes] all things, even the ·deep secrets [deep things; depths] of God.
11 Who knows the thoughts that another person has? Only a person's spirit that lives within him knows his thoughts. It is the same with God. No one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has [freely] given us. 13 And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit. And so we explain spiritual truths ·to spiritual people [or to those who have the Spirit; or with the Spirit's words].
14 A ·person who does not have the Spirit [or natural person] does not accept the ·truths [L things] that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be ·judged to be true [discerned; assessed] by the Spirit. 15 The ·spiritual person [or person with the Spirit] is able to ·judge [discern; assess] all things, but no one can ·judge [discern; assess] him. ·The Scripture says [L For]:
16 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Who has been able to ·teach [advise; counsel] him [Is. 40:13]?"
But we have the mind of Christ [C the Holy Spirit reveals God and his ways to us; Rom. 11:34].
For me , the expanded Bible has been an amazing tool for me these days , and there was a time when I would have been afraid of it in all honesty
its not complete , but has a lot of word terms laid out that "ring true"
Now Back to the original question who are those living creatures who died in the Lord and are under the altar / and want vengeance by asking the Father
to do His strange works Isaiah 28 ; 31 in sending the SON OF MAN AS THE SON OF GOD A Cornerstone in Zion
...20The bed is too short on which to stretch out, And the blanket is too small to wrap oneself in. 21For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be stirred up as in the valley of Gibeon, To do His task, His unusual task, And to work His work, His extraordinary work.
22 And now do not carry on as scoffers, Or your fetters will be made stronger; For I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts Of decisive destruction on all the earth.
I will destroy those whom destroy the earth and this was going to be by sending Jesus Christ , who never spoke any words except His Fathers only , His voice IS very important clue
another very important clue is Jesus come to destroy Babylon and this was to begin in the HOUSE OF GOD first and anyone called out of the world
was going to suffer the same fate of being held in Babylon or Being set free from Her [religon] all religion in general period
We find this very key chapter in Ezekiel 14 [GODS TEMPLE CLEANSED] that fits perfectly with Revelation 14
AND Zechariah 6 with Rev 6 the four winds Spirits horses and the purpose of each horse / spirit being the 4 sore judgments sent on the earth
Jesus spoke or God spoke directly to those in Charge of Babylon and the idolatry in the 4 gospels , you can consider those as the 4 winds of Change in you want they are truthful in the message of tearing down the strongholds of Babylon
What do they stand for is the question four sore judgments in Ezekiel 14 are
Famine for the WORD OF GOD JESUS IS THE WORD OF GOD HIS VOICE IS GODS VOICE ONE AND THE SAME , This is why the testimony of Jesus Christ IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY
AND many will say ,,, but Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad and this is true a foretelling becoming a reality , but the Spirit message continues to cleanse the temple of the Living God from Babylon in you and many to this day , the rest of vanity /futility and nothingness comes in Jesus Christ
HE MUST BE SET UP WITHIN YOU , your earthly temple just as we see this in the Word as truth , I have always thought it was going to be individually or in clusters like grapes squeezed out , our blood against sin in Hebrews 6 striving against error /sin
this grace is it , nothing is left for us to be saved by for or against Jesus blood is it the Lambs blood given as the gift of Life for all .
Jerusalem Will Not Be Spared
12 The ·Lord spoke his word [L word of the Lord came] to me, saying: 13 "·Human [T Son of man; 2:1], if ·the people of a country [L a country/land] sin against me by not being ·loyal [faithful], I will ·use my power [L stretch out my hand] against them. I will cut off their supply of ·food [bread] and send ·a time of hunger [famine], destroying both people and animals. 14 Even if three great men like Noah, Daniel [C either the prophet Daniel (who was still a young man at this time) or an ancient Canaanite hero known for his wisdom and justice], and Job were in that country, their ·goodness [righteousness] could save only themselves, says the Lord God.
15 "Or I might send wild animals into that land, leaving the land ·empty [desolate] and ·without children [bereaved]. Then no one would pass through it because of the ·animals [beasts]. 16 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if ·Noah, Daniel, and Job [L these three men; v. 14] were in the land, they could not save their own sons or daughters. They could save only themselves, but that country would become ·empty [desolate].
17 "Or I might bring a ·war [L sword] against that ·country [land]. I might say, 'Let a ·war be fought in [L sword pass through] that land,' in this way ·destroying [cutting off] its people and its animals. 18 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if those three men were in the land, they could not save their sons or daughters. They could save only themselves.
19 "Or I might cause a ·disease [plague; pestilence] to spread in that country. I might pour out my ·anger [L rage/wrath with blood] against it, destroying and killing people and animals. 20 As surely as I live, says the Lord God, even if Noah, Daniel [v. 14], and Job were in the land, they could not save their son or daughter. They could save only themselves ·because they did what was right [by their righteousness].
21 "This is what the Lord God says: ·My plans for Jerusalem are much worse [L How much more for Jerusalem]! I will send my four terrible punishments against it—·war [L sword], ·hunger [famine], wild animals, and ·disease [pestilence; plague]—to destroy its people and animals. 22 But [L look; T behold] some ·people will escape [survivors will be left]; some sons and daughters will be led out. They will come out to you, and you will see ·what happens to people who live as they did [L their ways and deeds]. Then you will be ·comforted [consoled] after the disasters I have brought against Jerusalem, after all the things I have brought against it. 23 ·You will be comforted [They will console you] when you see ·what happens to them for living as they did [L their ways and deeds], because you will know ·there was a good reason for [it was not without cause that I did] what I did to Jerusalem, says the Lord God."
Remember Jesus VOICE , GODS VOICE saying you did not know the time of your visitation , Spirit of God moving on you and I would have gathered you as a baby chick under my wings Him Being the protector of those 4 winds or Spirits of God but were not willing
so they die or are plagued or the beasts come and tear you apart or the famine of the Word is held from you and die in them
Babylon is falling in you just as Babylon is in the world and your earth
its two edged , you can be saved from them at any time or you will go though them all being held captive till you are desolate and empty void
Matt 24 holds true today as yesterday and to come , many do not even know it when its happening to them
they just know they are under some attack and blame it on Satan , but they are opposing Gods will and die in this error
loose heart , give up or walk away just as many done in the time Jesus walked the earth and showed us this very thing in the 4 gospels
this is always the warning in the Word stay till the end , dont give up dont loose heart , keep your hope alive , seek the Lord with all your heart , dont lean on your own understanding etc .... there is JESUS waiting on you
This is why I LOVE TENTMAKERS!!
everyone IS testifying of the truth !!!
bits and pieces of the TRUTH setting us free
John 8 The Truth will Set You Free
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him,
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free '?
free from Babylon !! we are all captive to that hold ,,, the earth was given Babylon
remember how John marveled at her ???
in Revelation 17
When I saw the woman, I was ·very amazed [greatly astonished; L amazed with great amazement]. 7 Then the angel said to me, "Why are you amazed [astonished]? I will tell you the ·secret [mystery] of this woman and the beast ·she rides [that carries her]—the one with seven heads and ten horns. 8 The beast you saw ·was once alive but is not alive now [L was, and is not; 13:3, 12, 14].
But soon it will come up out of the ·bottomless pit [Abyss; 9:1] and go away to ·be destroyed [its destruction]. There are people who live on earth whose names have not been written in the ·book [scroll] of life [3:5] since the ·beginning [foundation; creation] of the world. They will be amazed when they see the beast, because he was ·once alive, is not alive now, but will come again [L was, is not, but is to come; C imitating the divine title of the Lamb (1:18; 2:8) and God (1:4, 8; 4:8)].
Jesus come to defeat the strongholds and done just that[on the CROSS ] , but look how the deadly wound was healed ?And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Revelation 13:1,2,14
the scriptures must be fulfilled exactly as Prophesied
9 "You need a wise mind to understand this. The seven heads on the beast are seven ·mountains [or hills; C Rome was built on seven hills] where the woman sits.
10 ·And they are seven kings. Five of the kings have ·already been destroyed [L fallen], one of the kings ·lives now [L is], and another has not yet come. When he comes, he must stay a short time.
11 The beast that ·was once alive [L was], but ·is not alive now [L is not], is also an eighth king. He belongs to the first seven kings, and he ·will go away to be destroyed [is heading to destruction].
ALL THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS were set to be avenged by Babylon falling she his drinking the double portion of the cup of Gods wrath this how the white robes are given and the saints are avenged by resting till all is poured out on HER
When the wrath of God is complete in her
come out of her my people unless you want those plagues destined to come the 4 sore judgments the 4 spirits /horses of judgment
Red White Black and pale horse of death
red is the sickness
white is the warring
Black is allowing the measures [wheat and barley harvests heavenly gain ] the oil and wine are spared for sake of righteousness in the earth Gods glory
being the Holy Sprint oil in the lamps and Wine is the new blood of the new covenant
pale horse is death to the ones who never come out of her
This is only a sharing of what we can all gather now by His Spirit teaching us His righteousness in the earth as it is in heaven and to comfort those whom know Gods will is perfect and complete and entire not lacking in any thing
AMAZING !! GODS WILL IS AMAZING , HIS MERCY IS ALWAYS and we trust his judgments as righteous !
God has so much more in His will and desire for all of mankind
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 17, 2014, 12:59:38 PM
Quote from: RaiderGonzo on November 17, 2014, 07:37:33 AM
Is everything in the whole book of Revelation a "vision" and symbolic (filled with symbolism), or is there anything in it that can be taken literally?
Most of Revelation is just the daily Temple service retold in a rather special way.
Can things be taken literal? That depends on what you call literal.
I'll give a few example and let you decide.
Ships are people spreading God's Word. One third gets killed.
Rivers are fresh living water. The true religion/teachings. They are made bitter with satanic lies. --> Paganism
While it's possible literal ships get destroyed and rivers made bitter during war I think it's not the primary meaning.
So there will be no literal ships destroyed but faith will be literally destroyed. Some things are defined in the OT. Others are just saying the same thing over and over again.
The thing is RG, Revelation can't be understood without knowing the hidden meaning of words. Take for example angels restraining the wind. Wind is just a other name for the HS. Restrained wind means restrained blessings. But there is just one HS. But the angles are holding 4.... HS also represents God's power/authority. A Jewish prayer shawl had tassels on its 4 corners signifying God's power --> HS. The angels were holding the prayer shawl. During marriage ceremony a prayer shawl was stretched out over the couple. The couple received blessings not terror. So when mixing all hidden meanings together 4 angels restraining the wind means:
a] Extra bad times for the wicked. No more blessings to temper evil.
b] Saints are covered/protected.
c] Wedding stuff.
And that's just the beginning. There are a great many similar things in Revelation. Revelationn = Temple service + marriage.
Literal? You decide. :friendstu:
:iagree:
awesome Bro T
the marriage supper of the Lamb :flowerred:
the covenant agreement between God and mankind and I ironically the great supper of God happens to simultaneously i do believe this is Babylon falling as promised
no flesh left to speak of !!!
Defeat of the Beast and False Prophet
17Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great."...
1 Samuel 17:44
"Come here," he said, "and I'll give your flesh to the birds and the wild animals!"
Jeremiah 12:9
Has not my inheritance become to me like a speckled bird of prey that other birds of prey surround and attack? Go and gather all the wild beasts; bring them to devour.
Ezekiel 39:17
"Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: Call out to every kind of bird and all the wild animals: 'Assemble and come together from all around to the sacrifice I am preparing for you, the great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.
Revelation 8:13
As I watched, I heard an eagle that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: "Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!"
Revelation 19:21
The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 17, 2014, 12:35:50 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
That can't be explained without understanding large parts of Revelation.(and the order of chapters which are chronological but only when viewed trough a shape of a Menorah)
Under doesn't mean underneath but at the base of the altar which was huge. Priests had to climb some stairs to reach the top of the altar.
The people at the base of the altar just brought a sacrifice the priest puts on the Altar of Burned offering.
The people are given a white robe. Male wedding guests, including the groom, worn a wedding garment called a kittel. It looks a little similar to a bath-robe. The kittel is also worn during Passover and Yom Kippur sacrifices by the priests. Kittel is rooted in the word katal, to slay. The white garments are also linked to war.
Those people are the same as those in the 7th seal. (Silence)
There was music, song and dance in the Temple during the daylight hours. Twice a day there was a silence of 30 minutes. Everybody fell on the face and prayed in silence. Everybody was mainly/also the people would brought a sacrifice. The saints at the base of the altar.
In the previous seal they were told to wait. That's a chronological hint. It links the events to a festival date.
Seven Trumpets were only used during the 7 day long Feast of Tabernacles.
During the Temple service trumpets were sounded at 7 times a day.
4 during the morning service. Trumpet 1-4
The other 3 are the 3 Woes of revelation.
The souls at the base of the altar had to wait. This is what they had to wait for. Dressed in white and ready for battle.
I love this the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY SPEAKS !!
THE old testament and earthly witness the same as the Spiritual witnesss and making both true to the WORD OF GOD AS a finished Work
fulfilling the righteousness in the earth as it is in heaven
short work in righteousness being we are all here in the flesh for a short time , very short as is the Satan /adversity used to destroy the flesh
Romans 9 ;28 22 ·It is the same way with God. He [L What if he...?] wanted to show his ·anger [wrath] and to let people see his power. But he ·patiently stayed with [endured with great patience] those ·people he was angry with [L vessels/objects of wrath]—people who were ·made ready [prepared] to be destroyed. 23 He waited with patience so that he could make known ·his rich glory [the riches of his glory] to the ·people who receive his [L vessels/objects of] mercy. He has prepared these people ·to have his glory [to experience his glory; L for glory], 24 and we are those people whom God called. He called us not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. 25 As ·the Scripture [or God] says in Hosea:
"I will ·say, 'You are my people' [call them 'my people']
to those who were not my people.
And I will ·show my love [call her 'beloved']
to ·those people [her] I did not love [Hos. 2:1, 23; C in Hosea, a reference to apostate Israel; here applied to the Gentiles]."
26 "And in the same place where they were called,
'You are not my people,'
there they will be called
'children of the living God [Hos. 1:10].'"
27 And Isaiah cries out about Israel:
"[L Though] The ·people [L children; sons] of Israel are numbered
like the grains of sand ·by [or of] the sea.
But only ·a few of them [the remnant] will be saved,
28 because the Lord will quickly and completely ·punish the people [carry out/execute his sentence; settle his account] on the earth [Is. 10:22–23]."
29 It is as Isaiah said:
"If the Lord ·All-Powerful [of Hosts; of Heaven's Armies]
had not ·allowed a few of our descendants to live [left us offspring/seed],
We would have become like Sodom
and would resemble Gomorrah [Is. 1:9; C OT cities destroyed by God because of their wickedness; Gen. 19]."
30 ·So what does all this mean [L What, then, shall we say]? Those who are Gentiles ·were not trying to make themselves right with God [L did not pursue righteousness], but they ·were made right with God [obtained righteousness] ·because of their faith [L —that is, a righteousness that is by faith]. 31 The people of Israel tried to ·follow [pursue] a law ·to make themselves right with God [L of righteousness]. But they did not ·succeed [reach/attain it], 32 [L Why?] because they tried to make themselves right by ·the things they did [works] instead of ·trusting in God to make them right [L by faith]. They stumbled over the stone that causes people to stumble. 33 As it is written in the Scripture:
"[L Look; T Behold] I will put in ·Jerusalem [L Zion; C a poetic term for Jerusalem and symbolizing the nation Israel] a stone that causes people to stumble,
a rock that makes them fall [Is. 8:14].
Anyone who ·trusts [believes; has faith] in him will never be ·disappointed [put to shame; disgraced; Is. 28:16]."
Isaiah 10:22
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return:
the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.Isaiah 10:23
For the Lord GOD of hosts shall
make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle,
separated unto the gospel of God,Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Romans 9:26
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Romans 9:25
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Romans 9:29
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth
had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness
, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Romans 9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
being faithful as a wife to her husband and husband to the wife are what makes a true marriage work righteousness
and WHAT GOD has Joined together let no man separate put asunder !!!
Quoteand I ironically the great supper of God happens to simultaneously i do believe this is Babylon falling as promised
Maybe, but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.
Destroying Babylon sounds like war.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 17, 2014, 06:16:31 PM
Quoteand I ironically the great supper of God happens to simultaneously i do believe this is Babylon falling as promised
Maybe, but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.
Destroying Babylon sounds like war.
Maybe is not man , flesh and blood no not inherit anything to do with the Holy union covenant Jesus come to bring war and divisions Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict ..
I know this may upset many folks about the mystical Satan and How its done away with thrown in the fire last
why was this spirit if you will , be held / bound to an abyss for 1000 years ?
and why is the supper the great DAY OF THE LORD in Rev the same as Ezekiel 39 ?
and why is the 1000 years as a Day to God ?
I believe its because the only thing served will be the Lambs blood and body [Spiritual sacrifice ] , and none of these other sacrifices will be offered because its Gods sacrifice only that will serve His purpose and satan this adversarial purpose is for the destruction of all flesh
Ezek 39 this comes as the great and terrible Day of the Lord [Christ reign]
The Slaughter of Gog's Armies
...16"And even the name of the city will be Hamonah. So they will cleanse the land."' 17"As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, "Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you
may eat flesh and drink blood. 18"You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. For me this is Babylon falling , that there will be no more flesh and blood but the only Flesh and blood will be the Lambs blood and eat His flesh which I totally believe is spiritual in meaning just as the literal and natural was worked in the earth
Reve 20 1 Satan Bound the Thousand Years
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;...
Luke 8:31
And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;
Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Revelation 9:1
The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.
Revelation 10:1
Then
I saw another mighty angel coming down from heaven. He was robed in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun, and his legs were like fiery pillars.Revelation 20:3
He threw him into
the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that,
he must be set free for a short time. It not so easy to understand it and its a big clue to the great supper of God Rev 19 you will eat and be eaten
this is the warring in our members I believe Paul was conveying to us in Romans 7 one survivor the Christ in you ... ROMANS IS THE BEAST Paul is warring with in addressing these scriptures to us
How to overcome or be overcome both apply to us , when we are obedient to the Lord or not
the war will continue
just some thoughts without making this a mile long hopefully
If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.
Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?
Quote from: dajomaco on November 17, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.
Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?
saints were overcome Big clue is ALL who dwell on the earth Bro Dale
those whom were killed in Hebrews 11 we know it was literal proof and yet are those since and will are those whom are in Christ ..
Rev 13 ...6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain....
and we know that as long as we are carnal and still flesh and blood human as well as being spiritual creatures in Christ
the kill and be killed
by the SWORD /WORD OF GOD HEBREWS 4
12For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow,
and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Word of God is for us all whom are still being divided between the two mountains
Law of Moses / JUDGMENT without mercy and the Mountain of God / MERCY Jesus Kingdom
For me the mixing of Law and grace is being separated
Babylon still holding the prisoners and spilling the blood of the saints
I know this is confusing and maybe not be discussed at this time I am not certain
But I know the 7 mountains where the woman sits is the same 7 churches with their warnings in Rev 2 and 3 they are I just know many will doubt it
but if you can think clearly about this one thing , its our faith that remains in Hope and Love those 3 things that Jesus promises the victory in
When Paul talked bout the race and finishing it , it was over those 7 mountains , you see the Mother of Religion in the earth is what deceives
the very elect if possible
Matthew 24
The Abomination of Desolation is coming to those whom are not prepared before hand
...23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him.
24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25"Behold, I have told you in advance. I sure hope this helps and not hinders , I do wish others would also speak up as well
Quote from: dajomaco on November 17, 2014, 08:23:54 PM
If it is literal does it mean that those killed for their testimony where killed a certain way.
Those yet to be killed will be killed the same way.
Is the verse talking about the way they will be killed
or the reason they will be killed?
I think literal just means it's not figurative.
September 21, 2011, 9:00am
The Kittel as a Garment of Majestic Leadership
By Jacqueline Nicholls
This kittel explores leadership. Specifically, the responsiblity of leading, and the leaders' complex relationships to followers and to themselves. On Rosh Hashana our prayer leaders stand before God and together we crown God as King.
There are three different leadership archetypes in the Tanach: kings, prophets and priests. It is interesting to note that clothing plays an important symbolic role in each of their narratives, and thus clothing seems to be inherently connected with the concept of leadership.
There are many examples of the physical expression of the mantle of leadership in Tanach. The priestly garments are detailed in the books of Shemot and Vayikra.
The priest would have to wear specific clothing depending on his roles within the temple ritual structure. In the book of Kings the prophet Eliyahu is described as wearing a particular belted garment passed onto his student Elisha. Earlier in Kings, a prophet uses a cloak to demonstrate that the nation of Israel will be divided, and gives the pieces to Yarovam ben Navat as part of appointing him king of the northern kingdom. These stories use the garment as a symbolic transferring of power.
Clothing is also connected to status and intimacy. The prophet Yermiyahu is instructed to portray God's relationship with the people with a loincloth, an item of clothing worn next to the skin. David demonstrates that he could have harmed Shaul but chose not to by cutting a part of his cloak. But by damaging part of the king's clothing he is also threatening and disrespecting Shaul's leadership.
These connections between clothing and leadership come together in the character of Esther. Esther prepares herself to confront Ahashverus to arrange a meeting, which is potentially fatal for her, but she becomes a leader and acts on behalf of the people. The text describes her dressing herself in royalty , "tilfash Esther malchut"- Esther 5:1. The text does not describe her as wearing "bigdei malchut," which would have been the phrase for royal clothing. The Talmud, in Megillah 14b, interprets this unusual phrase as her as being clothed with prophecy. This moment of dressing is when she becomes a prophet.
The role of the king, prophet or priest all play two roles. They represent the people to God and God to the people. Going from one role to the other, they seem to belong to neither side but are caught in the middle. Individual personalities influence what type of a leader they will be, but they are not in this position as themselves, but rather as a representative of something else. There is tension between suppressing and enhancing their individuality as they rise to the occasion.
Read more: http://blogs.forward.com/sisterhood-blog/143063/the-kittel-as-a-garment-of-majestic-leadership/#ixzz3JNMAnUBN
A picture of the kittel is at link.
Kittel: Jewish Ceremonial Robe
What is a Kittel?
In Judaism, a kittel is a white linen robe worn by Jewish men on special occasions to signify purity, holiness and new beginnings. Traditionally, a Jewish man first wears a kittel on his wedding day, thereafter on certain Jewish holidays like Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur and Passover, and ultimately as a burial shroud. Kittels are worn by Orthodox men and sometimes by Conservative or Reform Jews if they choose.
In Jewish tradition, the color white represents purity and humility. In modern times, one of the readings on Rosh Hashanah is the saying of Isaiah: "Though your sin be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow" (Isaiah 1:18). In the time of the Temple, when the High Priest entered the Holy of Holies on Yom Kippur, he wore simple linen garments instead of his usual golden vestments.
The custom of wearing white on the High Holy Days has endured, and observant Jewish men wear a kittel to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. Women often dress in white on these days as well, and the ark curtain, Torah mantles, and various other synagogue items are also replaced with white versions.
Passover
On Passover, it is traditional for the man leading the Seder (home Passover meal) to wear a kittel. In this context, the kittel represents release from bondage to a life of freedom.
The groom's kittel is seen as paralleling the bride's purity as expressed in her white dress and signifying the new beginning of married life. As an added bonus, there are 32 fringes on the kittel and 32 spells out "heart" when written in Hebrew letters. In some communities it is customary for the bride to give her groom a kittel as a pre-wedding present. Grooms who choose to don a kittel wear it over their tuxedo or suit during the ceremony and usually remove it before breaking the glass or after the ceremony.
http://www.religionfacts.com/judaism/things/kittel.htm
The Kittel worn on the day of atonement by the high priest--
The Day of Atonement
16 Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 and the Lord said to Moses: "Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.
3 "Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. 4 He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on. 5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering.
--Lev 16
"This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father's place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary,[a] and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.
--Lev 16
We as priests entering the Most Holy Place:
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
--Heb 10
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren,
who would be killed as they were, was completed.
I believe this means they shared martyrdom, not that they were killed by the same method of murder.
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 06:59:26 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 17, 2014, 06:16:31 PM
Quoteand I ironically the great supper of God happens to simultaneously i do believe this is Babylon falling as promised
Maybe, but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.
Destroying Babylon sounds like war.
Maybe is not man , flesh and blood no not inherit anything to do with the Holy union covenant Jesus come to bring war and divisions Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict ..
Well the timing is in the God ordained feasts.
Feasts were announced with a certain combination of shofars, silver trumpets and blast patterns played on them. Those things have several nicknames like shout and blast. When reading Revelation the trumpets and shofars give timing. Note that trumpets and shofars are
not the same. That's very important to know because they have distinctive meaning in God's plan/timing/salvation.
The feasts have many nicknames that existed long before Jesus was born. Jesus obviously isn't going to marry a dead bride. The trumpet/shofars of Revelation start with Jewish New year the last trump*.
The last trump is also known as the awakening blast. Resurrection of the bride. Shortly after the next feast is nicknamed the call of the Messiah. Just like millions Jewish grooms have 'called' their bride so the Messiah-Jesus-groom calls His bride elect. It's getting a bit to complex after that to keep anyone interested so I just say all those things point toward a marriage supper long before Babylon falls.
If you closely follow all the events you will also notice rapture is just another manmade doctrine because in the whole book of Revelation we read about saints being oppressed and killed (rivers, ships, souls under the alter), etc. That won't happen if they were transported to heaven just before
Jacob's trouble tribulation begins.
The use of the feasts always was to show God's plan. Harvest feasts....
They pointed the suffering-servant-Jesus of 2000 years ago. But they also point to king-Jesus of Revelation. It's quite simple: Every Revelation interpretation not aligning with the feasts is false doctrine.
*= The Last Trump isn't last Trump (of Revelation) at all.
Before the Jewish New year there was a whole month of 'preparing/calling'. Each and every day of that month a trumpet was sounded. 30 days in a row. That ended when the month ended at New year. The last trump is the last trump of that series.
So the Last Trump isn't the end at all. It's when the groom get's really active and resurrects His bride which is just the beginning of things.
:2c:
Thanks for the responses.
Gleaning a few summary thoughts from various posts;
metaphorical
literal people, martyrs - future event
a picture of what is beginning to happen now, perhaps literal people, perhaps a picture of the flesh/old man/old system dying, being destroyed
tied into the last statement; not an end, but a beginning, and maybe difficult for most to understand, as tied into the feasts of which (most?) Christians have limited knowledge
(I'm probably missing some)
-------
If literal, then they certainly "know something". To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?
Quote from: jabcat on November 18, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
If literal, then they certainly "know something". To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?
Must martyrs be dead?
I think a large component of being a martyr is that he/she stops spreading the word of God. So what about a high profile preacher that gets locked up in a cold dark lonely cell for the rest of his/her life by an oppressive regime? Is that a martyr too? Such a person would know something.
The martyrs are at the base of the altar of sacrifice. Is the only sacrifice their life?
It's not something religious but it's a clear example so I use it:A great surgeon who makes truckloads of money gives up his fancy job in the west and becomes a severely underpaid doctor in the most poor area of Africa. He/she made a sacrifice.
I think beheaded shouldn't be taken to literal. Jesus wasn't beheaded but died for His faith. As many of His followers did. The majority wasn't beheaded. Stoned, crucified, fed to the lions in an arena, etc
None of them are among the saints at the Altar?
Also consider "head" is a term for authority. So beheaded possibly also means authority taken away. For example God gave them a ministry. For me, if God gives someone a ministry He gives that person the authority to speak, act in His name. For example the authority to heal with God's power/assistance.
If a man made law forbids such healings the power is taken away. Beheaded.
:dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on November 18, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
Thanks for the responses.
Gleaning a few summary thoughts from various posts;
metaphorical
literal people, martyrs - future event
a picture of what is beginning to happen now, perhaps literal people, perhaps a picture of the flesh/old man/old system dying, being destroyed
tied into the last statement; not an end, but a beginning, and maybe difficult for most to understand, as tied into the feasts of which (most?) Christians have limited knowledge
(I'm probably missing some)
-------
If literal, then they certainly "know something". To fit with the absolute "the dead know nothing" view, it must be explained as figurative?
Hi Bro James
I for one take the scriptures of Solomon , a wise man of the earthly things and wisdom of the world / under the sun
But Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God and ALL THINGS !
under the sun , the unseen and earth and Heaven and above , that is all things
the verse that is tripping up so many as I see it is this whoever is Joined to the Living IS JESUS CHRIST and they never Dies because they are with Him and the Knowledge of God is living works the Light has come the DAY IS HERE , not dead works nor dead any longer
all Live to Him and for Him and though Him , that is a lot of Living if you ask me
it was not till the appointed time when those scriptures though useful are becoming obsolete or outdated
we Live in the NOW THE LIGHT OF CHRIST opposed to the '' dead in sin and trespass '' and under the sun
the verse that helped me was in the Sun , no longer under the sun / Light of Christ Rev 12 the woman clothed with the Sun / same as Clothed in Christ
and Rev 19 And I saw an angel/messenger
standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;
Noted Solomon prophetic in knowing that Jesus Christ is being joined with the Living GOD
Ecc 9 4For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion.
5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything,
nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished,
and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.
and we are told
NOT to be of the world , be in it but not of it , Solomon was an example of many errors /sins by many wives and concubines and idols of the heart and was miserable in his old age
he saw all youth as vanity and for nothing in song of Solomon pursuing love
Proverbs in the worldly endeavors and Ecc Solomons wisdom was the worldly things just make you become old and tired .
So I see its not good to hold on to that wisdom as all there is ,and faith only in this beginning of Wisdom , we have a much better hope in this day , than that day and the Wisdom of God though Jesus Christ, the end of our faith and the righteousness of God though the seed and one of a kind Son !
perhaps to build on yes , but by no means to finish our faith in it , Only the GOD of the Lord Jesus Christ as it is written this is our DAY and hour
to Shine in Christ
:dsunny:
I do believe now that there will be a rapture. The church will be removed before the 3.5 years of the great Tribulation begins because 1)that event is all about the Jews, and 2) we are not subject to wrath. The main event in the book of Revelation is the opening of the seals which have sealed up the will.
The Lamb Takes the Scroll
5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals. 2 Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?" 3 And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it.
4 So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. 5 But one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals."
6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
--Rev 5
I'm thinking now that the rapture will take place between the 6th and 7th seal, which puts it at our door. When the 7th seal opens, the judgments start pouring down on the earth as trumpets, bowls, and woes. The 7th seal opening announces the contents of the will and the beneficiaries who will inherit, and now it's time for them to take their rightful place on the earth. This was always the plan.
10'Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
--Mat 6
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
--Luke 21:28
Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, "Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of His holy ones.
--Jude 1:14
Worthy Is The Lamb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mvwdn4WStcQ
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe. I do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively. As I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises......
Psa. 104: 29 You conceal Your face; they are filled with panic.
You gather away their spirit; they breathe their last
And return to their soil. Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Ecc 12:7 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Ecc. 12: 7 And the soil returns onto the earth just as it was,
And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it. (In my opinion that spirit is breath)
When man dies he becomes dead, no breath/spirit, all in the OT have died, but we can single out those who died in faith, not receiving the promises, but they are still dead. Since Jesus Christ a good many have died, knowing the promises and JESUS CHRIST who gifted us with GRACE through FAITH, but died dead.
Because of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above, are in the process of being saved, and because of Grace and His Faith, we are accounted dead... Rom 6:3 And do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:11 Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin,but alive unto God in Christ Jesus.
The way I understand it, without knowing Jesus Christ, we are dead to sin but those in Christ are alive in Christ awaiting our physical death and the rising again(the resurrection of/from the dead (Phil. 3:11.) When a living soul dies, expires, quits breathing the breath, they are dead and begin to return to the soil, dust, earth, awaiting the resurrection of the dead. The Creator holds, with knowledge, all the breaths/spirit that return just as He knows the number of hairs on each head and the names of every star existing now or that burned out.
Job 14:14 If a man dieth--doth he revive? All days of my warfare I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou dost call, and I--I answer Thee; To the work of Thy hands Thou hast desire. ....................The "call" will be for the just and the unjust.
I,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3 For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 1Th 4:16 ..... and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
Do I stand in wonder about 1Th 4:17 then we who are living, who are remaining over.....Yes.
I wrote this post in hopes to get a clearer understanding in my mind by writing my thoughts and belief. Pro 4:7 Wisdom(Jesus) is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Thank you
Great Micah7:9
I'm with you on the spiritual perspective of Revelation.
We figuratively were slain with Christ, yet we live! And another!
:peace:
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 19, 2014, 12:17:36 AM
I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe.
You do :-)
QuoteI do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively.
I believe it's wise not to make firm statements until you understand Revelation.
It's not just you but something I see among many Christians is that when they don't understand something, they play the "it's spiritual" card; which for me equals "Let's get rid of another inconvenient truth; let's burn another chapter of the Bible".
Just because they concluded for themselves the OT people got all the literal things and the NT people all spiritual things they ignore everything that may even hint toward literal NT events.
Doesn't the Bible teach the literal things testify about the spiritual things? Or even other literal things.
The lamb is the most known example of this. A literal animal-lamb setting a pattern for a literal Jesus-Lamb, setting a pattern for spiritual works of Jesus.
QuoteAs I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.
I think you don't
really want any input because every topic with soul or spirit in it, eventually makes you point to the Genesis verse about living soul. You are entitled to your view, but sticking to that/any view obviously means nothing changes.
QuoteBecause of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above,
QuoteI,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3
Looking at your two quotes, death also applies to the believer. All believers were dead once. Dead believers (no faith + works) aren't believers at all. Spiritually dead people are possible, spiritually dead believers don't exist.
My point with the above is, that Revelation has with 100% certainty a literal interpretation. It's also very clear, to me, it's following the daily Temple worship pattern and the marriage customs. Sure it can be argued that those things (marriage+temple) won't literally happen again and Revelation is just following the pattern laid out millennia ago, (there is stuff that hints to the contrary) but still the pattern has to be understood to (better) understand Revelation.
I see the same things happening all over again. Ancient Jews had very good reasons to assume Jesus was not the Messiah. They had verses/laws to prove it. They were very wrong. They got tangled in the letter of the law. The same is happening again right now (right here). When things are to difficult, just claim they are spiritual, cook up an explanation and get a warm fuzzy feeling. If that doesn't work, just kill it with the letter of the law. Yeah that letter includes the NT. Bury each other under out of context verses. Because many refuse to study, and equally important admit they just don't understand; they invent their own doctrine and find verses supporting their thoughts. That's how so many doctrines were born. That's why ET can be proven with verses. Because verses are used as a blue print for religion. Well they are not. They are building blocks.
The way I see it....
a] The Chief Architect (Father) has a plan to build a house (family)
b] He draws up a rough sketch His house in His mind. Number of rooms, size, that sorta stuff. (salvation plan)
c] Then the Chief Architect draws some blue prints detailing the house. The blue prints are the God ordained feasts, the God ordained Temple rituals, the God ordained marriage customs, etc
d] Finally the Chief Architect writes down a list with building materials, building blocks (verses) to explain others how the house should look like when it's done.
What, imo, is constantly happening is that many Christians believe Father has some sort of plan (a) but they are not aware any blue prints (b, c) exist so they are just start building with the materials (d) they find on the construction site. The result is that they all build different houses (doctrines). None of them look like the house the Chief Architect designed. Some are better than others. Many building materials (verses) aren't used correctly even if they form a (sometimes) nice room. But never according to plan. Lot's of building material seems not to fit in the house. It's discarded (verses spiritualized away)
And me? I'm the weird contractor with construction site with the least activity. I'm still searching for the blue prints and trying to understand the ones I find. I may get fired (die) before the house is ready, but if the Chief Architect grants me enough time I think my house will be pretty close to point a....
At least I will have tried to build the house according to the client's specs instead of my own preferences.
:winkgrin:
:soap:
And yet I show you a more perfect way.
Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses). It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.
It has been a good discussion though. Glad you posted it.
:thumbsup:
I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.
Quote from: ed on November 19, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
And yet I show you a more perfect way.
Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses). It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.
It has been a good discussion though. Glad you posted it.
:thumbsup:
Yes we do the best we can and without the Spirit of Christ we are not going to anything good for sure :flowerred:
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.
you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind is Christ's Spirit and that to me is the error
And that spirit working in mankind is anti-Christ
Quote from: ed on November 19, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
And yet I show you a more perfect way.
Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses). It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.
It has been a good discussion though. Glad you posted it.
:thumbsup:
Only the house Jesus is building will be according to the specs.
All others will fail. But that doesn't mean we can't try. And every good try involves reading what the client wants...
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 19, 2014, 09:46:33 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 19, 2014, 12:17:36 AM
I do not have a thought as to what/who the "souls/breaths" under the alter maybe.
You do :-)
I do not :)
QuoteI do believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is of more a spiritual understanding than literal or as some say figuratively.
I believe it's wise not to make firm statements until you understand Revelation.
It's not just you but something I see among many Christians is that when they don't understand something, they play the "it's spiritual" card; which for me equals "Let's get rid of another inconvenient truth; let's burn another chapter of the Bible".
When a truth is a truth.....it is a truth. So you understand Revelation because you make statements.
Just because they concluded for themselves the OT people got all the literal things and the NT people all spiritual things they ignore everything that may even hint toward literal NT events.
I do not believe the OT is all that literal, I believe the OT stories were written in the literal mode, but are to be discerned through the spirit.
Doesn't the Bible teach the literal things testify about the spiritual things? Or even other literal things. First the natural then the spiritual.
The lamb is the most known example of this. A literal animal-lamb setting a pattern for a literal Jesus-Lamb, setting a pattern for spiritual works of Jesus.
QuoteAs I asked in a post of my own, who/what are the spirits in prison(1 Pet. 3:19) to this as well I have no better understanding, I am grateful for all input.
I think you don't really want any input because every topic with soul or spirit in it, eventually makes you point to the Genesis verse about living soul. You are entitled to your view, but sticking to that/any view obviously means nothing changes.
I did want input, I got input, I was grateful for the input, it is still not clear to me as I guess it is with you. I guess you can have your doubt. As for Genesis and the living soul, where else should one go? Yes, I will go back to where a truth has been established.
QuoteBecause of Grace and Faith all those who died being found, drawn to Jesus by the Father, have died, being born again from above,
QuoteI,( imo) believe the phrases "spiritually dead or dead spiritually" does not apply to the believer, and wrong to use. Col. 3:3
Looking at your two quotes, death also applies to the believer. All believers were dead once. Dead believers (no faith + works) aren't believers at all. Spiritually dead people are possible, spiritually dead believers don't exist.
I was trying to say that the speaking of "spiritually dead and dead spiritually" trouble me when it is not written that way in the Word. I have and do it myself, but change I am allowed.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 19, 2014, 10:00:33 AM
My point with the above is, that Revelation has with 100% certainty a literal interpretation. It's also very clear, to me, it's following the daily Temple worship pattern and the marriage customs. Sure it can be argued that those things (marriage+temple) won't literally happen again and Revelation is just following the pattern laid out millennia ago, (there is stuff that hints to the contrary) but still the pattern has to be understood to (better) understand Revelation.
I see the same things happening all over again. Ancient Jews had very good reasons to assume Jesus was not the Messiah. They had verses/laws to prove it. They were very wrong. They got tangled in the letter of the law. The same is happening again right now (right here). When things are to difficult, just claim they are spiritual, cook up an explanation and get a warm fuzzy feeling. If that doesn't work, just kill it with the letter of the law. Yeah that letter includes the NT. Bury each other under out of context verses. Because many refuse to study, and equally important admit they just don't understand; they invent their own doctrine and find verses supporting their thoughts. That's how so many doctrines were born. That's why ET can be proven with verses. Because verses are used as a blue print for religion. Well they are not. They are building blocks.
The way I see it....
a] The Chief Architect (Father) has a plan to build a house (family)
b] He draws up a rough sketch His house in His mind. Number of rooms, size, that sorta stuff. (salvation plan)
c] Then the Chief Architect draws some blue prints detailing the house. The blue prints are the God ordained feasts, the God ordained Temple rituals, the God ordained marriage customs, etc
d] Finally the Chief Architect writes down a list with building materials, building blocks (verses) to explain others how the house should look like when it's done.
What, imo, is constantly happening is that many Christians believe Father has some sort of plan (a) but they are not aware any blue prints (b, c) exist so they are just start building with the materials (d) they find on the construction site. The result is that they all build different houses (doctrines). None of them look like the house the Chief Architect designed. Some are better than others. Many building materials (verses) aren't used correctly even if they form a (sometimes) nice room. But never according to plan. Lot's of building material seems not to fit in the house. It's discarded (verses spiritualized away)
And me? I'm the weird contractor with construction site with the least activity. I'm still searching for the blue prints and trying to understand the ones I find. I may get fired (die) before the house is ready, but if the Chief Architect grants me enough time I think my house will be pretty close to point a....
At least I will have tried to build the house according to the client's specs instead of my own preferences.
:winkgrin:
:soap:
Kinda like me and the living soul in Genesis huh? I mean you always go back the Hebrew wedding. :dsunny:
Quote from: ed on November 19, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
And yet I show you a more perfect way.
:thumbsup:
The building material which withstands the fire is "faith working in love" imo
I think the apocalypse of John, like so many prophecies in the word of God has layers, literal, metaphorical, spiritual pictures of spiritual realities, glimpses of future events and more. Wheels within wheels with eyes all around, speaking on many levels, from the heart and mind of the one who is and was and is to come.
I can agree with that, yet I believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is a working and revealing now within the individual believer and the Body as many members. Again, it is LIFE, through the Spirit, working in and revealing in the Believer, events happening in US as The Day approaches. John was IN the Spirit a position we must be in for discernment.
My opinion and how I try to understand.
I agree that the Revelation is primarily a working and revealing now within the individual believer and the Body. Also, that as John received it IN the Spirit, so also we must be IN the Spirit to receive what we, individually and corporately, should receive from it.
"Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches".
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2014, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.
you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind is Christ's Spirit and that to me is the error
And that spirit working in mankind is anti-Christ
I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2014, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.
you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind is Christ's Spirit and that to me is the error
And that spirit working in mankind is anti-Christ
I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.
Hi Bro Tom ,
I understand what you are saying , The breath of God is in them, and ALL live to God He is not the God of the dead but the Living [in Adam]
and I understand your meaning , and the human dies and is no more . I get that part literally in meaning and is true .
but do not think you understand what I was saying perhaps?
any spirit that has not Christ is none of His
the Life I am speaking of is the peace and joy and Holy Spirit an abundant life now and continual one without an end
To me those other spirits just exist /poor in spirit and are not really living according to what Jesus Christ is declaring
but are still under the wrath of God and do have an end .
We can see the condition of man being dead in trespass and sin in Eph 1 and though they have the breath of God in them they are as dead
Because to me Life is more than just the breath in you ,
This is to me why we are given the Deposit of the Spirit this belonging to Christ and we are His possession 2 Corinth 1:22 we are no longer poor in spirit , but have access to His and all things are His to give and we know He gave all that we to might have Life in Him , the gift of God .mind of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places
and anti Christ spirits oppose His HOLY SPIRIT or try to take the place of Him being disobedient and wrathful / hateful /lawless that is not living as to what the scriptures are testifying too
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2014, 08:55:01 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 07:51:37 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2014, 04:46:07 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 19, 2014, 02:39:35 PM
I think God's "house" is the ecclesia (1 Timothy 3:15), but I still don't think of anybody as "spiritually dead" because spirit is the power of life.
you can have a spirit in you brother ,all do , but not every spirit working in mankind is Christ's Spirit and that to me is the error
And that spirit working in mankind is anti-Christ
I think the "antichrist" is found in scripture, but "spiritually dead" is not even though it seems to be popular.
Hi Bro Tom ,
I understand what you are saying , The breath of God is in them, and ALL live to God He is not the God of the dead but the Living [in Adam]
and I understand your meaning , and the human dies and is no more . I get that part literally in meaning and is true .
but do not think you understand what I was saying perhaps?
any spirit that has not Christ is none of His
the Life I am speaking of is the peace and joy and Holy Spirit an abundant life now and continual one without an end
To me those other spirits just exist /poor in spirit and are not really living according to what Jesus Christ is declaring
but are still under the wrath of God and do have an end .
We can see the condition of man being dead in trespass and sin in Eph 1 and though they have the breath of God in them they are as dead
Because to me Life is more than just the breath in you ,
This is to me why we are given the Deposit of the Spirit this belonging to Christ and we are His possession 2 Corinth 1:22 we are no longer poor in spirit , but have access to His and all things are His to give and we know He gave all that we to might have Life in Him , the gift of God .mind of Christ and seated with Him in heavenly places
and anti Christ spirits oppose His HOLY SPIRIT or try to take the place of Him being disobedient and wrathful / hateful /lawless that is not living as to what the scriptures are testifying too
Rose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.
QuoteRose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.
Hi Tom , not upset at all Brother
Figuratively ,'' describing something symbolic ''
is fine by me let the dead bury to dead , you come follow Me ,Jesus says :thumbsup:
I don't believe I even used that either , did I ? '' spiritually dead'' I mean ...........Eph 2 is what I was using as an example not E ph 1 sorry about that :icon_flower:
Eph 2 1 Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air,
of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,
4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;
10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 19, 2014, 05:27:41 PM
Quote from: ed on November 19, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
And yet I show you a more perfect way.
Yes WW I agree, we do make our own doctrines(houses). It is often much better then following the erroneous doctrines of the experts who are sure that they are correct, and yet miss the mark.
It has been a good discussion though. Glad you posted it.
:thumbsup:
Only the house Jesus is building will be according to the specs.
All others will fail. But that doesn't mean we can't try. And every good try involves reading what the client wants...
Another perspective of your building analogy could be
from the point of view of the
realtor.
The building isn't even started.
You are given an artist rendering of the building and a
list of some of the
most important aspects of the building .
Now your job is to go out and promote the building.
Answer general questions and give information.
Tell people of the
character of the builder so that they have a level of trust.
If they have very specific question (how many amps)How much power.
You tell them they will have to find out from the builder.
You can go with them and ask the builder or they can go themselves,
and ask the most detailed technical questions they want.
The list of details are so specific that even if I think I know them I don't give them out.
The builder just wants me to send them to him.
The builder always gives full commission.
Quote from: rosered on November 19, 2014, 10:25:53 PM
QuoteRose, I understand what you'e saying, and I don't want you to get upset again. But I think we are living souls given life and kept alive by spirit, the power of life, that comes from God and will return to God if we die before Christ calls us to meet him in the air. I think believers have holy spirit, which unbelievers don't have, but I don't believe unbelievers are "spiritually dead," just figuratively dead until they are literally dead.
Hi Tom , not upset at all Brother
Figuratively ," describing something symbolic " is fine by me let the dead bury to dead , you come follow Me ,Jesus says :thumbsup:
I don't believe I even used that either , did I ? " spiritually dead" I mean ...........Eph 2 is what I was using as an example not E ph 1 sorry about that :icon_flower:
Eph 2 1 Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others,
4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
6 and did raise [us] up together, and did seat [us] together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus,
7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;
10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.
Right, you didn't say "spiritually dead." That was my #36 reply to #33 & #34, but it was quoted by you in your #38. I haven't been keeping up with the forum very well the last couple of days because I've been busy. It seems maybe my reply #46 was simply saying that your reference to "antichrist" is in scripture, but the "spiritually dead" that was mentioned earlier, not by you, is not which is what I was replying to when you quoted me. I'm sorry if this is confusing. Like I said, I haven't been able to keep up with the forum for a couple of days. I'll probably be busy again tomorrow too. I just didn't want the thing with the soul to cause confusion like it did last time.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 18, 2014, 09:14:17 AM
Quote from: rosered on November 17, 2014, 06:59:26 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 17, 2014, 06:16:31 PM
Quoteand I ironically the great supper of God happens to simultaneously i do believe this is Babylon falling as promised
Maybe, but I doubt it because the a man could never be drafted for war in the 1st year of his marriage.
Destroying Babylon sounds like war.
Maybe is not man , flesh and blood no not inherit anything to do with the Holy union covenant Jesus come to bring war and divisions Matt 10 ;34 Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ... I didn't come to bring peace but conflict ..
Well the timing is in the God ordained feasts.
Feasts were announced with a certain combination of shofars, silver trumpets and blast patterns played on them. Those things have several nicknames like shout and blast. When reading Revelation the trumpets and shofars give timing. Note that trumpets and shofars are not the same. That's very important to know because they have distinctive meaning in God's plan/timing/salvation.
The feasts have many nicknames that existed long before Jesus was born. Jesus obviously isn't going to marry a dead bride. The trumpet/shofars of Revelation start with Jewish New year the last trump*.
The last trump is also known as the awakening blast. Resurrection of the bride. Shortly after the next feast is nicknamed the call of the Messiah. Just like millions Jewish grooms have 'called' their bride so the Messiah-Jesus-groom calls His bride elect. It's getting a bit to complex after that to keep anyone interested so I just say all those things point toward a marriage supper long before Babylon falls.
If you closely follow all the events you will also notice rapture is just another manmade doctrine because in the whole book of Revelation we read about saints being oppressed and killed (rivers, ships, souls under the alter), etc. That won't happen if they were transported to heaven just before Jacob's trouble tribulation begins.
The use of the feasts always was to show God's plan. Harvest feasts....
They pointed the suffering-servant-Jesus of 2000 years ago. But they also point to king-Jesus of Revelation. It's quite simple: Every Revelation interpretation not aligning with the feasts is false doctrine.
*= The Last Trump isn't last Trump (of Revelation) at all.
Before the Jewish New year there was a whole month of 'preparing/calling'. Each and every day of that month a trumpet was sounded. 30 days in a row. That ended when the month ended at New year. The last trump is the last trump of that series.
So the Last Trump isn't the end at all. It's when the groom get's really active and resurrects His bride which is just the beginning of things.
:2c:
Agree on the last trump. I would be interested in hearing more of what you said would not keep anyone interested. I'm very interested.
Don't forget there are two classes of virgins--the wise and the foolish virgins. The foolish virgins do not have oil for their lamps, so when the groom comes, they are not ready and the door is shut in their faces. That is half who will not be raptured. They are the ones who will be around during the time of Jacob's trouble.
35 And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.
--Daniel 11
I haven't been able to find anything named 'the call of the Messiah.' Is that the feast of Trumpets?
Many are called but few are chosen?
Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able
to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
--Lk 21:26
"to escape"G1628
ἐκφεύγω
ekpheugō
ek-fyoo'-go
From G1537 and G5343;
to flee out: - escape, flee.
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
--Rev 7
So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. --Rev 7
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
A martyr (Greek: μάρτυς, mártys, "witness"; stem μάρτυρ-, mártyr-) is somebody who suffers persecution and death for advocating, renouncing, refusing to renounce, and/or refusing to advocate a belief or cause, usually a religious one. Most martyrs are considered holy or are respected by their followers, becoming a symbol of good leadership and heroism.
Martyr of the past; Christians who willing laid down their lives for the cause of Christ.
Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 21, 2014, 09:48:09 PM
Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.
Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)
Quote from: eaglesway on November 21, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 21, 2014, 09:48:09 PM
Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.
Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)
I think he meant "lives." ?
Quote from: eaglesway on November 21, 2014, 09:59:26 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 21, 2014, 09:48:09 PM
Martyr of today; Christian who reads the book of revelations
and figures out a way to keep their live.
Sorry, don't get that. Could you expand? :o)
It was meant as a commentary on the book of revelations commentators.
One book asks us to have the courage to lay down our life.
The other Book once you figure out it's secret meaning will help you
avoid laying down your life.
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
QuoteRe: Souls Under the Altar
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2014, 06:57:18 AM »
Quote
I believe some would likely see this as mystical/"only having spiritual/symbolic meaning within the believer", etc...Others, do you see these as literal martyrs, if so, what point in history..also, if truly/literally/completely "the dead know nothing", what's going on with these souls? They certainly seem to be aware..thoughts?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 07:00:27 AM by jabcat »
Even though a great deal of the book of revelation is figurative/symbolic, much of it can be seen as literal IMO.
The 7 seals are described in Rev. 6 and Rev. 8. In Rev. 6. the first 6 seals are opened.
The first 4 seals are described in some detail, not so for the 5th and 6th.
The first Four Seals in Rev. 6 can be linked to the events depicted by the Olivet Prophecy given by Jesus in Mat. 24. These first Four Seals rehearse how Satan obtained dominion over humanity and how he retains that usurped authority. The activity of the four horsemen in the Olivet Prophecy picture the condition of what the world has become under Satan's domination and continues since the first sin in the Garden.
First seal - DECEPTION- white horse - Rev. 6:2
Second seal - DIVISION- red horse - Rev. 6:3-4
Third seal - DESTRUCTION- black horse - Rev. 6:5
Fourth seal - DEATH- pale (green) horse - Rev. 6:7-8
In Rev. 8 the seventh seal is opened, and thereafter we are shown the unrolling of the seventh seal, the seven trumpet plagues, seven bowl plagues and the seven last plagues which constitute almost all of the rest of the book of Revelation.
The fifth seal is the one that Jabcat used in asking our thoughts on those 3 verses in his first and second post.The
fifth seal has but 3 verses - 9, 10 and 11. Very little information is given to us about this fifth seal or its duration other than saying "they should rest a little while longer", suggesting the time is short for the unveiling of the final seals. We are at or near that point in time IMO.
From YLT:
Rev. 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
About the souls that were slain- - I agree with Laz and Micah with Laz (Post#3) and Micah (Post#7) that these souls are in their graves. This is similar to what God stated to Cain about the blood of Abel. The point is made that the "souls under the altar" are composed only of the Elect who had been martyred. There are others who are dead in Christ but were not martyred. Since the dead are in a state of unconsciousness (ECC 9:5; PSA 146:4) until the time of their resurrection, these saints cannot literally be alive. They "live" only in the vision in order to relay information regarding the passage of time and God's direct intervention at a pivotal point in God's plan. It is also interesting that we are told they are UNDER (base of?) the altar
Rev. 6:10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
Since the prayers of the saints are symbolized by incense in scripture, the altar where John saw martyred saints would most logically be the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense. Crying out to God is like an emotional appeal to God in prayer (Heb. 5:7).
Exo_37:25 And he made the incense altar of craptim wood: the length of it was a cubit, and the breadth of it a cubit; it was foursquare; and two cubits was the height of it; the horns thereof were of the same.
Exo_39:38 And the golden altar, and the anointing oil, and the sweet incense, and the hanging for the tabernacle door,
Rev_8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
UPON the altar not UNDER (base of?) the altar
God will judge the world and take vengeance when the 8th seal is opened. The trumpets initiate the wrath of God on the earth and avenge the saints.
Rev 6:11 and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed—even as they.
White robes symbolizing righteousness:
Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev_7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
They were to rest (sleep) until the time of the first resurrection. There is yet to come a martyrdom of the Elect before the first resurrection. That may be in progress now in small degree but will come on a larger scale before the wrath of God is unleashed at the opening of the seventh seal. Vengeance is from God.
I know there is more depth of spiritual meaning than in this post regarding the 5th seal.
But like Molly in her post #4, I see a literal meaning. But I recognize the metaphorical/symbolic aspects as well. Like - is a martyr a physical martyr or a spiritual martyr? Could be both!
And WW and rosered in their posts delve into the more spiritual aspects. I continue to learn and do more of that. I seek to gain more of a Hebraic perspective also. I value everyone's post, because we all bring a unique perspective to think on. "All testifying of the truth bits and pieces of the TRUTH setting us free "as rosered said.
I also think there's literal and figurative language in Revelation, but I'm wondering what you mean by "is a martyr a physical martyr or a spiritual martyr?"
Hi Tom,
Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.
I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.
:Peace2:
I wonder if those who have been imprisoned, tortured, banished, had their children taken from them etc.count also as martyrs.
Quote from: joeteekay on November 23, 2014, 01:36:53 AM
Hi Tom,
Martyrdom. I believe it is dying physically for professing faith in Christ. That to me is a martyr.
I was using WW alternate view on this in his post#26.
:Peace2:
I agree with you. I think others who suffer for the faith are noble souls, but I wouldn't call them martyrs.
Quote from: micah7:9 on November 19, 2014, 06:04:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 19, 2014, 10:00:33 AM
Kinda like me and the living soul in Genesis huh? I mean you always go back the Hebrew wedding. :dsunny:
Yes. Putting a lot of value in a certain verse/chapter/concept etc greatly shapes the way other verses are understood. If that makes the rest of the Bible easier to understand it's a good thing. But if certain view 'causes problems at many other places in the Bible it might be a signal to review that view.
Every verse/concept needs at least one witness. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. If verse/concept has no witnesses and/or contradicts other Scripture there is a problem that needs to be solved. That problem can only be solved by changing the interpretation of conflicting verses/concepts.
Quote from: joeteekay on November 22, 2014, 10:02:59 PM
About the souls that were slain- - I agree with Laz and Micah with Laz (Post#3) and Micah (Post#7) that these souls are in their graves. .......
until the time of their resurrection, these saints cannot literally be alive. They "live" only in the vision in order to relay information regarding the passage of time and God's direct intervention at a pivotal point in God's plan.
I think that depends on what the vision really was. You are right that it's a future event (using the date the vision was giving as 'now'). But that doesn't mean the people John saw weren't really alive. Maybe his vision was just looking forward, or maybe John was transported through time? Likely/possible some of the martyrs under the altar weren't even born yet when John received his vision. So those souls weren't in their graves (at that time).
John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.
QuoteSince the prayers of the saints are symbolized by incense in scripture, the altar where John saw martyred saints would most logically be the heavenly counterpart of the altar of incense. Crying out to God is like an emotional appeal to God in prayer (Heb. 5:7).
Only if the saints are priests that would be possible. Still I think they were below the altar of Sacrifice. That also had smoke rising up. This altar has 3 heaps of coals with their own function. Some burned as long as the Temple stood and portion of that heap was carried to the golden altar of incense which was tiny compared to the other altar. It was during the 30 minutes of silence, life coals were taken from the brazen altar and put on the golden Altar.
QuoteRev_7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Just want to say this verse must be a fly in the face with their only 5% saved doctrine. The verse doesn't mention numbers but 'no one could number' sounds like a vast quantity to me.
QuoteBut like Molly in her post #4, I see a literal meaning.
The word literal keeps popping up since I joined this forum. I always had the feeling not everybody has the same definition of literal.
I think I'm among the literal group but I don't expect to see dragons with 10 heads, horses with scorpion tails etc.
A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".
Literal events but explained in symbolic terms. But it's very important those symbols must defined by the Bible/God itself. Otherwise a zillion false doctrines emerge.
Note: by the above I'm not dismissing any spiritual meaning. In fact I'm 100% sure there is one. It's even the most important. But without the literal meaning there is no witness. The result will be false literal and spiritual doctrines.
:2c:
I believe all the Saints are priests. They are both king and priest, like their Lord. This priesthood is the new priesthood, after the order of Melchizedek. It is stated in the OT and confirmed in the NT.
5'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine; 6and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
--Ex 19
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
A royal priesthood is a new order of priesthood that is both king and priest. This priesthood is based on an indestructible life. There is of necessity, therefore, a change in the law as regards the priesthood.
Need for a New Priesthood
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life.
--Heb 7
This priesthood by necessity requires an internal change to the priest, rather than an external human acknowledgment of position.
: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more."
--Heb 8
Jesus grants us this priesthood through belief in him.
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
--John 5:21
John 6:47
Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
This is one of the most basic teachings of the Christian church.
As we move into Thanksgiving day [which remembers the celebration of the feast of Tabernacles by the pilgrims after their first year in what they considered to be the 'promised land,]' here is a reminder that the sacrifice that God requires from his priests is a sacrifice of joy and thanksgiving.
5For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
6And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.
--Psalm 27
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
--Rev 1
Then another remark, to finish up with, shall be, we have a divine service to perform; and as I want you all, this morning, to turn this chapel into one great altar—as I want to make you all working priests, and this the temple for sacrifice—look earnestly at your service. You are all priests, because you love his dear name and have a great sacrifice to perform; not a propitiation for your sins, for that has been once offered, but a sacrifice this day of holy thanksgiving. Oh! how sweet in God's ear is the prayer of his people! That is the sacrifice that he accepts; and when their holy hymn swells upwards towards the sky, how pleasant it is in his ears; because then he can say, "My hosts of priests are sacrificing praise."
--C. H. Spurgeon
Wonderful post!
QuoteA simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".
To me, that would make the eagle, fire and beast symbolic rather than literal, because they are figures, by definition making the language figurative. It seems to me that a literal take would be than an actual eagle will cast actual fire onto an actual beast which is of Babylon. I always thought literal meant non-symbolic. In fact I knew someone that took Revelation literally meaning he thought that all those images were literally real, and when I suggested they were symbolic, he told me we need to be careful about making the scriptures symbolic because it's dangerous. Go figure..... :winkgrin:
Whenever ETers say they take the "hell" fire scriptures literally, they mean there is actual fire, not that the fire represents something else. Whenever someone suggests it's symbolic, they tend to get ruffled by that. I think a lot of people equate "outward" with "literal," which I don't. I think whether it applies inwardly or outwardly, if it is a figure, and not actual, then to me that makes it figurative. That's just how I gave always seen it, though I am interested in other ideas, because I don't like when terminology blocks understanding. As long as I know what someone means, I feel like I can communicate better with them.
QuoteThe word literal keeps popping up since I joined this forum. I always had the feeling not everybody has the same definition of literal.
I think I'm among the literal group but I don't expect to see dragons with 10 heads, horses with scorpion tails etc.
A simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".
Literal events but explained in symbolic terms. But it's very important those symbols must defined by the Bible/God itself. Otherwise a zillion false doctrines emerge.
Note: by the above I'm not dismissing any spiritual meaning. In fact I'm 100% sure there is one. It's even the most important. But without the literal meaning there is no witness. The result will be false literal and spiritual doctrines.
Yes , exactly WW !! GEN 11 and we see this prophecy fulfilled to this very day
11 At this time the whole world spoke one language, and everyone used the same words. 2 As people ·moved [migrated] ·from the east [or eastward; 2:8; 4:16], they found a plain in the land of ·Babylonia [L Shinar] and settled there.
3 They said to each other, "Let's make bricks and ·bake [burn; fire] them ·to make them hard [thoroughly; C in ancient times builders used mudbrick]." So they used bricks instead of stones, and ·tar [bitumen] instead of mortar. 4 Then they said to each other, "Let's build a city and a tower for ourselves, whose top will reach high into ·the sky [heaven; C a ziggurat or stepped pyramid at whose top was a temple thought to be in heaven]. We will ·become famous [L make for ourselves a reputation/name]. Then we will not be scattered over all the earth."
5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower that the ·people [L sons of man] had built.
6 The Lord said, "Now, these people are ·united [L one], all speaking ·the same [L one] language. This is only the beginning of what they will do.
·They will be able to do anything they want [L Nothing they want to do will be impossible for them]. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language [L there]
so they will not be able to understand each other."8
So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they ·stopped [ceased] building the city. 9 The place is called Babel [C sounds like the Hebrew word for "confused"] since that is where the Lord confused the language of the whole world. So the Lord caused them to spread out from there over the whole world.
But who took it up to build the Holy City in the earth but Babylon/Her and with the kings of the earth ?
the Whole Bible testifies of this faulty foundation especially in Revelation and the coming down of Her finally and end , Gods wrath is complete in Her Rev 15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing,
seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.
and those whom build on Jesus Christ being the chief corner Stone set in the earth by God Himself , but She comes down from Heaven
Quote from: Seth on November 23, 2014, 08:11:05 PM
QuoteA simple no Biblical example of how literal my literal is. "The angry eagle casts fire on the beast of Babylon"
My sort of literal interpretation would be" America which has the eagle as their nation symbols bombs Saddam Houssain who ruled Iraq which was the center of the Babylonian empire".
To me, that would make the eagle, fire and beast symbolic rather than literal, because they are figures, by definition making the language figurative. It seems to me that a literal take would be than an actual eagle will cast actual fire onto an actual beast which is of Babylon. I always thought literal meant non-symbolic.
Whenever ETers say they take the "hell" fire scriptures literally, they mean there is actual fire, not that the fire represents something else. I think a lot of people equate "outward" with "literal," which I don't. I think whether it applies inwardly or outwardly, if it is a figure, and not actual, then to me that makes it figurative. That's just how I gave always seen it, though I am interested in other ideas, because I don't like when terminology blocks understanding. As long as I know what someone means, I feel like I can communicate better with them.
Maybe its history as literal with some spiritual meanings as well . both testify of Gods power
I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman rule but the American nation may have taken on this same standard
being Babylon was divided in to 3 parts Rev 16 ;18And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.
19The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God,
to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
An aquila, or eagle, was a prominent symbol used in ancient Rome, especially as the standard of a Roman legion. A legionary known as an aquilifer, or eagle-bearer, carried this standard.
Each legion carried one eagle.The eagle was extremely important to the Roman military, beyond merely being a symbol of a legion.
A lost standard was considered an extremely grave occurrence,
and the Roman military often went to great lengths to both protect a standard and to recover it if lost;
for example, see the aftermath of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, where the Romans spent decades
attempting to recover the lost standards of three legions.
Quote from: roseredMaybe its history as literal with some spiritual meanings as well . both testify of Gods power
I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman rule but the American nation may have taken on this same standard
To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.
According to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.
Quote from: Seth on November 23, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
Quote from: roseredMaybe its history as literal with some spiritual meanings as well . both testify of Gods power
I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman rule but the American nation may have taken on this same standard
To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.
Yes Seth symbolic ! is describing things as to what they
are literally as to seas being many tongues and nations and peoples for instance !
QuoteAccording to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.
Yes I too see the inward working of the Spirit and truth to those whom have an outward appearance as if nothing has changed !!
I do see this as a truth ! the lining up within and the outward chaos of humanity as a whole
Quote from: rosered on November 23, 2014, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 23, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
Quote from: roseredMaybe its history as literal with some spiritual meanings as well . both testify of Gods power
I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman rule but the American nation may have taken on this same standard
To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.
Yes Seth symbolic ! is describing things as to what they are literally
as to seas being many tongues and nations and peoples for instance !
QuoteAccording to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.
Yes I too see the inward working of the Spirit and truth to those whom have an outward appearance as if nothing has changed !!
I do see this as a truth ! the lining up within and the outward chaos of humanity as a whole
:thumbsup:
I think inward things can be literal too. For example, if someone says, "I am sad," and is actually sad, then he is speaking literally. If someone says, "I am a fish at the bottom of a dark lake," then he is using figurative language to express the literal truth that he is sad. There is no actual fish or lake, but the literal thing is whatever the figures represent, either inward or outward.
Quote from: Seth on November 23, 2014, 08:40:21 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 23, 2014, 08:34:42 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 23, 2014, 08:24:37 PM
Quote from: roseredMaybe its history as literal with some spiritual meanings as well . both testify of Gods power
I have read the eagle was symbolic of Roman rule but the American nation may have taken on this same standard
To me, I would take that to be the difference between figurative-outward vs figurative-inward. To me, figurative means symbolic. Maybe that us why I have been somewhat confused when someone says they take Revelation literally, then explain symbolism, because I have a different understanding about what that means.
Yes Seth symbolic ! is describing things as to what they are literally
as to seas being many tongues and nations and peoples for instance !
QuoteAccording to my own understandings of "literal" and "figurative," I'd wager to guess that most people on this forum and Christianity as a whole take Revelation as figurative language, where the variations in interpretation are outward vs inward.
Yes I too see the inward working of the Spirit and truth to those whom have an outward appearance as if nothing has changed !!
I do see this as a truth ! the lining up within and the outward chaos of humanity as a whole
:thumbsup:
I think inward things can be literal too. For example, if someone says, "I am sad," and is actually sad, then he is speaking literally. If someone says, "I am a fish at the bottom of a dark lake," then he is using figurative language to express the literal truth that he is sad. There is no actual fish or lake, but the literal thing is whatever the figures represent, either inward or outward.
Exactly Seth ! we agree :iagree: knowing that Jesus spoke in parables comparing the things of heaven to those we could know as literal , being carnal in nature would be able to understand somewhat to what He was comparing the heavens to and the Father
it was the Spirit of holiness given that they would be able to understand what Jesus was saying , because the Spirit knows all things
of heaven and earth and even the unseen and hidden things of the heart of those who really Love Him !! :dsunny:
1Corinth 2
Wisdom from the Spirit of God
...9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."
10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit;
for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God....
I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.
Quote from: rosered on November 23, 2014, 08:34:42 PM
Yes Seth symbolic ! is describing things as to what they are literally
as to seas being many tongues and nations and peoples for instance !
Yep that's what I mean.
Symbolic is often like the middle ground. It can be symbolic for the natural or the spiritual. Often both at the same time. The good shepherd parable is the most simple example of that.
From a pure language pov I likely should have used symbolically instead of literally. I didn't because in my experience many who oppose the literal view only believe in something spiritual. I, for example, believe in a last great war with literal weapons, literal people dying, when fighting for/against the literal Israel (and allies). Not
only something spiritual in which Jesus enters your life and you defeat satan with a few prayers or something similar.
:friendstu:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 23, 2014, 10:20:32 PM
Quote from: rosered on November 23, 2014, 08:34:42 PM
Yes Seth symbolic ! is describing things as to what they are literally
as to seas being many tongues and nations and peoples for instance !
Yep that's what I mean.
Symbolic is often like the middle ground. It can be symbolic for the natural and the spiritual. And often both at the same time. The good shepherd parable is the most simple example of that.
From a pure language pov I likely should have used symbolically instead of literally. I didn't because in my experience many who oppose the literal view only believe in something spiritual. I, for example, believe in last great war with literal weapons, literal people dying, when fighting for/against the literal Israel (and allies). Not only something spiritual in which Jesus enters your life and you defeat satan with few prayers or something similar.
:friendstu:
:thumbsup: :dsunny: I see the symbolic as the old heavens and earth as of the earthly kind and the need for the new ones as to being Spiritual in nature as both kinds exist and not to confuse the two , this is just my opinion bro! :gimmefive:
wheels within wheels ;)
From WW post #63
QuoteJohn even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.
My comment:
I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the 7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm. Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.
The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO
:2c:
QuoteThe reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO
That means all we see in John's vision must also have a earthly counterpart.
"presbyteros" indeed has the meaning you gave in Greek but imo that's missing the point. You should look what it means in the Hebrew mind. Just as in the Greek the Hebrew elders were old and wise. Not much difference there.
The Jewish elders are the
original 12 tribal elders, leaders or whatever you prefer to call them. Their function was to let their own tribe prosper which wasn't always good for the nation (12 tribes combined). In Rev 4:4 there is some sort of co-reign between a tribal elder and a kingdom elder (Apostle)
I'm not 100% sure about this....
The elders can't be Levites because they never were part of the 12 tribes. The Levites are the 13th tribe. The only tribe without land. They were leaders of the Temple which stood on the land of another tribe.
12+1
12 tribal elders + 1 Levite = High priest
12 apostles + 1 Jesus=High Priest
BTW white robes and crown aren't reserved for Levites only.
Every groom was dressed like a king (as far as his budget went) during his marriage.
They always wore a white robe. Because most were very poor most had a crown of roses. With thorns BTW. The rose symbolized the beauty of marriage and the thorns the bad times in marriage. Jesus wore a crown on the cross...
This is getting a bit of topic. My point is if we in the OT read about tribal elders we read/know they are leaders of the various tribes (yes also old and wise), why assume in Revelation they suddenly are something else? (just old, Levites, maybe not human at all)
Quote from: Tom on November 23, 2014, 09:57:42 PM
I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.
I'm not sure what you are saying Tom....
Are you saying that because at the time of the vision (late 1st century AD) all the saints below the altar were still dead Johns vision must be symbolic?
If so I think we don't have enough information to conclude that.
A vision may show a future event that will happen 100% exactly the same as the vision shows. For me that's literal too. For me news on TV are literal events too. Even if it doesn't happen when I'm watching the news because most of it is recorded hours ago. That makes it literal past events. John saw literal future events. And not even that is certain because Father
could have put John in a 'time machine' and John was actually transported into the future.
But as said, we don't really know because God isn't limited to just one method of giving visions.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2014, 10:04:29 AM
QuoteThe reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO
That means all we see in John's vision must also have a earthly counterpart.
"presbyteros" indeed has the meaning you gave in Greek but imo that's missing the point. You should look what it means in the Hebrew mind. Just as in the Greek the Hebrew elders were old and wise. Not much difference there.
The Jewish elders are the original 12 tribal elders, leaders or whatever you prefer to call them. Their function was to let their own tribe prosper which wasn't always good for the nation (12 tribes combined). In Rev 4:4 there is some sort of co-reign between a tribal elder and a kingdom elder (Apostle)
I'm not 100% sure about this....
The elders can't be Levites because they never were part of the 12 tribes. The Levites are the 13th tribe. The only tribe without land. They were leaders of the Temple which stood on the land of another tribe.
12+1
12 tribal elders + 1 Levite = High priest
12 apostles + 1 Jesus=High Priest
BTW white robes and crown aren't reserved for Levites only.
Every groom was dressed like a king (as far as his budget went) during his marriage.
They always wore a white robe. Because most were very poor most had a crown of roses. With thorns BTW. The rose symbolized the beauty of marriage and the thorns the bad times in marriage. Jesus wore a crown on the cross...
This is getting a bit of topic. My point is if we in the OT read about tribal elders we read/know they are leaders of the various tribes (yes also old and wise), why assume in Revelation they suddenly are something else? (just old, Levites, maybe not human at all)
This is great stuff Bro T
and it makes sense Jesus told them they would be judging with Him , just as the 12 elders were already in the regeneration
and that is what is going on now though the natural man and eyes do not see it at all
and Johns Vision was at hand , it was coming quickly , and coming to pass , the Roman rulers Nero in that day was the beastly king
and Do believe every generation has these types and shadows to be fulfilled in them making Gods Word perpetual as Jesus saying man shall not live by
bread alone but every WORD that proceeds out of His mouth
we know Jesus is the bread of Life , yet the Law of Moses is also in effect / the natural force is not abated still as some are going though this transition , the times and seasons till every jot and tittle is
fulfilled in that generation and the new regeneration begins in them
I am under the impression it is individually as to one by one He visits us this is why no one Knows BUT GOD HIMSELF
A thief in the night does surprise the sleeping house holder and this is how He comes to us when you least expect it
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 24, 2014, 10:32:23 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 23, 2014, 09:57:42 PM
I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.
I'm not sure what you are saying Tom....
Are you saying that because at the time of the vision (late 1st century AD) all the saints below the altar were still dead Johns vision must be symbolic?
If so I think we don't have enough information to conclude that.
A vision may show a future event that will happen 100% exactly the same as the vision shows. For me that's literal too. For me news on TV are literal events too. Even if it doesn't happen when I'm watching the news because most of it is recorded hours ago. That makes it literal past events. John saw literal future events. And not even that is certain because Father could have put John in a 'time machine' and John was actually transported into the future.
But as said, we don't really know because God isn't limited to just one method of giving visions.
:2c:
I think the dead saints under the altar (Revelation 6:9,10) in John's vision were crying out to God in the same sense as Abel's blood crying from the ground (Genesis 4:10) as was mentioned by Laz earlier. I brought up the other vision (Matthew 17:1-9) as a reminder that dead folks can appear alive in visions. I think visions or dreams contain symbolic imagery that reveal something to us, but there are different interpretations of John's vision.
imo ..the saints blood[life of Christ in the blood] and the rest/Christ they were in and counseled to remain in a little while longer
were crying out to God..for Him to make His move to destroy the kingdom of darkness. venegeance is mine..sayeth the Lord
I shall recompense[patience of the saints/awaiting His deliverance from evil]
Quote from: joeteekay on November 24, 2014, 05:26:38 AM
From WW post #63
QuoteJohn even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.
My comment:
I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the 7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm. Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.
The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO
:2c:
Hi Joe I thought about this for a bit and considered them to be the watchers and of the Ancients in Daniel they ate the ones determining King Nebuchadnezzar
sentence watchers Strong's H5894 - `iyr the guardians watchers scriptures in Daniel 4
Hebrews 11;2 And by this there was
a testimony/witness concerning the ancients.
here is some of the scriptures concerning them
Dan 7:9 I beheld
till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
thrones cast down
lDan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
lDan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here are the remaining matches.
Job 12:12 With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Isa 23:7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in th
e ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Rev 20:4 And
I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the
witness of Jesus, and
for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Just really do not know ,
I did noticed some it was for the testimony of Jesus being the new testament and the Word of God being of the old testament ,
but thought it was interesting
Here's some interesting information relevant to the original post.
http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling019.htm
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
Why where the white robes only given to those under the altar, after they cried out?
Who gave them the white robes?
Where these the same white robes
Rev 7 : 14
Then one of the elders asked me,
"
Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?"
14 I said to him, "Sir,[c] you know."
Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary.
The One seated on the throne will shelter[d] them:
16 They will no longer hunger;
they will no longer thirst;
the sun will no longer strike them,
nor will any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is at the center of the throne
will shepherd them;
He will guide them to springs of living waters,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.
Zech 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.
6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Ezekiel 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.(outer court service)
15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:
16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.(innermost court service/holy of holies/overcomers reward)
18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat(no fleshly religion/works/law).
1 Cor 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones(zadok), wood, hay, stubble(defiled levite);
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward(holy of holies service).
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Phil 2:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:(white linen)
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;(souls under the altar)
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect(mature), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal(apocalypsei) even this unto you.
Revelationn 1:1 The Revelation(apocalypsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants,
Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will [lear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect(Zadok).
James 3:12 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.
13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom(Zadok). 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing(defiled Levite 1 Cor 3:wood,hay,stubble). 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace(Zadok).
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."
Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.
Amen
Quote from: Tony N on November 26, 2014, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."
Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.
Rev 7 : 14
Then one of the elders asked me,
"Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?"
14 I said to him, "Sir,[c] you know."
Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.
These white robed people used the blood of Jesus to make their robes white.
Do the people under the alter use their own blood to make the robes white?
"they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin" (Revelation 7:14)
My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?
dajomaco, it is all symbolism. People don't literally wash their robes in Christ's blood or literally whiten them in Christ's literal blood.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?
A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.
Quote from: Tony N on November 26, 2014, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?
A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.
I have thought what purpose would there be in willing,
allowing myself to be killed for the cause of Christ.
Some early Christians hid in the catacombs.
Others (disciples openly declared Jesus) and where martyred.
I know the Spirit can give us courage to do all things.
Is there some kind of bonus for being Martyred?
I think we are to speak the truth of the evangel and expect to be persecuted for it, but it's God's choice how and when we will die.
:iagree:
Quote from: Tom on November 26, 2014, 11:19:18 PM
I think we are to speak the truth of the evangel and expect to be persecuted for it, but it's God's choice how and when we will die.
:iagree:
Quote from: Tony N on November 26, 2014, 09:31:57 PM
Quote from: jabcat on November 17, 2014, 05:21:07 AM
Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?
What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."
Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.
"in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday." This I believe is the real matter, the Spirit.
Rev 1:10 I was
in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what
the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear
what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
Rev 4:2 And immediately
I was in the spirit: and, behold
Rev 17:3 So he carried me
away in the spirit into the wilderness
Rev 21:10 And he carried me
away in the spiritRev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was
opened in heaven: " ...a door was
opened in heaven, ..." I have been on this forum enough to know that most, if not all believe[know] that
"heaven" is not a geographical location, just as "hell" is not a geographical place, so what John received was "in the Spirit." I find Tony N to be very close to my given understanding.... my :2c: of understanding thus far.
"What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."
Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice. (Tony N)
Lev. 17: 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood...
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 11:04:32 PM
Quote from: Tony N on November 26, 2014, 10:37:26 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 26, 2014, 09:58:26 PM
My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?
A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.
I have thought what purpose would there be in willing,
allowing myself to be killed for the cause of Christ.
Some early Christians hid in the catacombs.
Others (disciples openly declared Jesus) and where martyred.
I know the Spirit can give us courage to do all things.
Is there some kind of bonus for being Martyred?
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might
gain an even better resurrection.
John 1124Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...
I DO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I DO BELIEVE THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY IS THOSE WHOM HAVE RISEN IN CHRIST THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD AND ARE WITH HIM NOW !! the firstfruits of those whom slept / rest in Hope / Jesus Christ is our only HOPE!!
1 PETER 1
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
Micah 7
7But as for me, I will watch expectantly for the LORD; I will wait for the God of my salvation.
My God will hear me. 8Do not rejoice over me, O my enemy. Though I fall I will rise; Though I dwell in darkness, the LORD is a light for me.
9I will bear the indignation of the LORD Because I have sinned against Him,
Until He pleads my case and executes justice for me. He will bring me out to the light, And I will see His righteousness
Quote from: rosered on November 24, 2014, 07:05:01 PM
Quote from: joeteekay on November 24, 2014, 05:26:38 AM
From WW post #63
QuoteJohn even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.
My comment:
I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the 7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.
Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm. Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.
The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO
:2c:
Hi Joe I thought about this for a bit and considered them to be the watchers and of the Ancients in Daniel they ate the ones determining King Nebuchadnezzar
sentence watchers Strong's H5894 - `iyr the guardians watchers scriptures in Daniel 4
Hebrews 11;2 And by this there was a testimony/witness concerning the ancients.
here is some of the scriptures concerning them
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
thrones cast down
lDan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
lDan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here are the remaining matches.
Job 12:12 With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
Psa 77:5 I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Isa 23:7 Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Just really do not know ,
I did noticed some it was for the testimony of Jesus being the new testament and the Word of God being of the old testament ,
but thought it was interesting
Hello Rose and all,
I have given more thought to what I posted about the Elders mentioned in Revelation (Unveiling) and to your thought about the watchers.
Rose, I found your reference to the word watcher (s) very intriguing It is found in only 4 verses, 3 in Daniel The one in Jeremiah is not the same word in Hebrew so that one is not relevant. So the concordances offer little to go on or to associate that with other scriptures.
IMO elders and watchers are not the same thing. The elders mentioned in the Old Testament always referred to people, not spirit beings. They were typically folk who had wisdom from a long life and experience and were on councils or in senates to make decisions. Hebrew word
H1419 and H2205.
But the watcher(s) appear to be spirit beings who are from heaven (Dan 4:13, 23) quite different than elders. What is their role and purpose? However I tend to agree with you when you state that they are to ones determining (looking over?) King Nebuchadnezzar.
This story about King Nebuchadnezzar is amazing. It is a miracle that the kingdom would be restored to Nebuchadnezzar after 7 years since it would be "normal" for a general, satrap or a strong usurper to take over as ruler and have the deranged king put to death. Obviously, God was preventing this from happening. Possibly the watchers were involved in this process and also possibly God had Daniel installed as the temporary sovereign.
So IMO the watchers are spirit beings who are not well explained to us in scripture. Could they be Michael, Gabriel, other Messengers? Maybe, but not likely?
When I look at the word watcher (
H5894) in the Hebrew/Aramaic, it looks very much like the Hebrew word eyes H5870.
Watcher = (
H5894)
עִיר Eyes = (
H5870)
עַיִןIf this is so then the word eye(s) has an interesting association to the verses in Revelation 4 and 5 where eyes are mentioned.
Rev_4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Rev_4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Perhaps these eyes (watchers?) can go to and fro throughout the earth according to God's purpose.
The word
Ancient is an interesting study too.. Rose you mentioned Dan. 7:9, 13 and 22 where the Ancient of days is found. Here in Daniel
Ancient is translated from
H6268. Once again, the only place this word is found is in the book of Daniel in 3 verses.
All translations I have looked at translate
H6268 as
Ancient except for the CLV, which translates the word as Transferrer in English.
Either way I believe the
Ancient of Days in the 3 verses in Daniel refers to God the Father. How so? Dan. 7:13 and 7:22:
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the
Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
In verse 13 the son of man (Jesus Christ) is coming—not to the earth, but to the
Ancient of Days ( Father in heaven)—with the clouds of heaven. Yes, it's a vision but a vision of a future event described in Rev. 4:11 and 5:12-13.
Christ receives all power and all authority and with Him are the resurrected saints. No longer is Satan the god of this eon (Rev. 12:9).
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Dan 7:22 Until the
Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
I put a lot of stuff in this post and probably covers much more than the original post by Jabcat sought concerning "souls under the alter"
Perhaps this post should be more appropriately put into word studies? :dontknow:
the presbuteros of God is scattered throughout the scripture.
1 Tim 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
Zech 3:6 And the angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here.
Amos 3;7 Surely the Lord God does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.
Psalms 82:1 God stands in the assembly [of the representatives] of God; in the midst of the magistrates or judges He gives judgment [as] among the gods.(Amplified)(Elohim judges the el in the assembly of the elohim; or the Alimighty judges the mighty in the assembly of the mighty)
There is a sense available from many sources in scripture that God reigns in council. This is His pleasure, and a privilege for those who ascend(by grace and election) into His presence. We are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms. "The one who overcomes will sit with me on my Father's throne"...."will inherit all things"
Paul made it clear, imo, that he exercised authority in the presence of God, from the "throne room".
These 24 elders are like a select group, elect, chosen, to the council of God in the inner court, but they are also symbolic of the presbuterion in any assembly in any generation, those who draw near to the throne of God, those to whom He gives "charge over my courts", those who walk among the stones of fire..... as in,...
"But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant
As you get closer to the throne, there are the souls under the altar, the 24 elders that surround the throne(casting their crowns before Him)- imo these all represent Pauls Philippians statement
Phil 3:7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that or which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
When John and James Mom asked the Lord Jesus to put them at His right and left(as the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth, the two olive trees) He replied that that was not His to give but was for them to whom it was appointed/predestined. I think the 24 elders and the souls beneath the altar are like that, and I think in every generation God has those who stand in His councils by election and those who don't.
IMO these are pictures of the throneroom, the heavenly innermost court, the "heavenly realms in Christ Jesus where all spiritual blessings abound" - in the earth in the now for disciples to see how the veil is torn and how the ecclesia ar manifested as the tabernacle of God under the headship of Jesus. Like, "The Bride 'coming down from out of heaven'" even as Jesus said, "I am the bread of life that comes down out of heaven".
Wow! Thanks JOE!! and John for expounding on this
Love studying on the 7 Spirits Eyes ! seven eyes on ONE STONE /JESUSCHRIST Listen to what the Spirit is saying to the churches being 7 or the fulness of
Zech 3 ...8'Now listen, Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who are sitting in front of you--
indeed they are men who are a symbol, for behold, I am going to bring in
My servant the Branch. 9'For behold, the stone that I have set before Joshua;
on one stone are seven eyes. Behold,
I will engrave an inscription on it,' declares the LORD of hosts,
'and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. 10In that day,' declares the LORD of hosts, 'every one of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and under his fig tree.'"
Do you think its the white stone and new name in Rev 3 ?
There sure is a difference when you compare between the two types !!! :thumbsup:
Gods will be done on earth as it is in Heaven :cloud9:
I found this interesting to bro
this is the same description in Isaiah 6 Isaiah Becomes a Prophet
6 In the year that King Uzziah died [C 740 bc], I saw the Lord sitting on a ·very high [L high and exalted] throne. ·His long [L The train/trailing part of his] robe filled the Temple. 2
·Heavenly creatures of fire [L Seraphim; C the word means "burning ones" and points to purity, power, or judgment] ·stood above [or attended] him [Rev. 4:6–9]. Each creature had six wings: It used two wings to cover its face [C as a shield from God's awesome glory], two wings to cover its ·feet [or body; C indicating humility; "feet" can be a euphemism for genitals], and two wings for flying. 3 Each creature was calling to the others:
"Holy, holy, holy is the Lord ·All-Powerful [Almighty; of Heaven's Armies; T of hosts].
His glory fills the whole earth."
4 ·Their calling [The sound/noise from each one's voice] caused the ·frame around the door [doorposts; threshold foundations] to shake, as the Temple filled with smoke.
QuoteRev_4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
There is sooooo much to learn I am amazed every day!!!!
I think the white stone and the new name are in the same vein. Sort of like David's mighty men of valor, he was surrounded by concentric rings of mightier and mightier warriors. as we grow in sonship various aspects of the ministry of Christ become ours.
Jesus the warrior/priest/shepherd/king is our David, and gives the "key of David"- the open door that no man can shut,
Jesus is the Light and walks among the Lampstands, holding the "stars"(presbyteries) in His hand, and I believe the 144,000, the 24 elders that surround the throne, the two anointed ones/olive trees etc., etc, are all aionian images of the actual heavenly tabernacle that is being fitly joined together, living stone by living stone, beyond the veil.
I also believe that if the elders in local churches(city-wide ecclesia, not denominations) could see this, and would order themselves accordingly, the glory of God would return to the temple in their city and their Lampstand would be exalted. :2c:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 28, 2014, 08:49:33 PM
I think the white stone and the new name are in the same vein. Sort of like David's mighty men of valor, he was surrounded by concentric rings of mightier and mightier warriors. as we grow in sonship various aspects of the ministry of Christ become ours.
Jesus the warrior/priest/shepherd/king is our David, and gives the "key of David"- the open door that no man can shut,
Jesus is the Light and walks among the Lampstands, holding the "stars"(presbyteries) in His hand, and I believe the 144,000, the 24 elders that surround the throne, the two anointed ones/olive trees etc., etc, are all aionian images of the actual heavenly tabernacle that is being fitly joined together, living stone by living stone, beyond the veil.
I also believe that if the elders in local churches(city-wide ecclesia, not denominations) could see this, and would order themselves accordingly, the glory of God would return to the temple in their city and their Lampstand would be exalted. :2c:
:dsunny:
The question from Jabcat OP...""Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?"
I had no thought as to who or what these "souls" are, I still wonder, yet I can offer what I believe and understand......these "breaths/lives" are the very ones who continued on, those who stood and stand, yes they maybe us, you, me, those who stand and die for Christ. I believe John saw what was produced from the Teachings of The Anointed who stood believing to their death; as we pray we are. He saw and heard the voices of the Redeemed.....waiting as as the Psalmist wrote...How long oh Lord HOW LONG.
I offer only how I understand and that is what is considered an opinion. Still I pray, in my house of clay, How long oh Lord...How Long :dsunny: :HeartThrob:
..I think the souls under the altar are like the blood of Abel which cried out to God from the Earth.. Of which Abel had nothing to do with and was not there.. I think the fifth seal (the fifth main element of the latter age) is the element of martyrdom, which like all the seals continues and progresses throughout the age (of the years of our Lord, a.d.?)
I agree marie glen.
:thumbsup:
I so wish I could see it that way , but sadly I do not
I have found a lot of scripture support on the raising the dead
and I am convinced Jesus Christ abolished death that this is exactly what Jesus did on the cross when He said it is finished
I do believe He is the ONE AND ONLY one with the keys /unlocking the holding place of the dead and those whom die in Christ never die they are raised into the GLORY OF GOD Immediately of the mortal body of death upon death
these have the crown of Life promised in the Revelations of Christ I would even go as far as to say some have this already before the mortal body is even separated at death of mortality , those whom consider their bodies dead already by faith in Jesus Christ Cross and promise of eternal Life in them ...
Life and death are in the power of the tongue , I do believe some speak Words of Life and the spoken Word is the LIVING WORD OF GOD , This cannot ever die
it is the immortality spoken of Being Spirit and Truth and its within us all whom it has been Given of the Lord of the Living and the dead
I would even go as far as to say I have been dead to God and Jesus raised me up into Life by His own SPIRIT and it has happened more than a few times already , I do believe you begin to KNOW the difference
the Justified LIVE BY FAITH in what the power of the HOLY SPIRIT anoints you with ''the Christ ''anointing '', in you the hope of glory of the Lord '' '' as more is given or taken away or simply used up for His own purpose
I am concerned many are waiting for some big thing to happen and come later in another age , when it is promised now and may miss out because they are not
ready to receive HIM Hebrews 9 ;28 the first time Jesus comes none are aware of Him because we are dead in sin and the dead know nothing ,, I did not know at the time what was happening .... But I am one to tell you He does come again bringing LIFE IN THE SPIRIT to us and the increase of God is with Him and so is the ''all things '' judgment etc , so many things we have to work out and though in HIM
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
we have so many examples in the Word of God
those under the altar were waiting for Jesus to abolish death at the cross!! How can I say this with such boldness of speech ? Jesus come in the fulness of times ! the very center of the all things going out from Him and now they are going back into HIM and not void !
Because it says Blessed is he who dies in the Lord from now on you rest in your labours and the WORKS FOLLOW , THE GREATER WORKS WILL YOU DO BECAUSE I GO TO THE FATHER !!
Who dies in the Lord ? dont you know ! , those who are baptised unto His death are in the newness of Life now !
Romans 6 ...2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
you are not the same creatures those souls breaths of old Adam any longer ! there was no difference between the animal natures and mankind in the beginning they all run on the seat [authority ] of their own survival instinct beast natures ! we see this daily in the world , those who kill and eat , devour one another for greedy gain and power to subject to their to their own ways of thinking ! and gang mentality
Why they don't even love their own kind , much less an enemy or easy prey !
this is what you are delivered from , the roaming and devouring and seeking Lion of satan /opposition the flesh is consumed in the sense of destroying one another , crushing faith and hope and love and goodness and mercy and all those HOLY THINGS it lacks !
We fight off the urges to KILL and thou shall not kill , and seal and keep the Sabbath holy /Jesus holy not bring Him down to the earthly sensual and devilish mentality crafty snares of wisdom of the world !! etc
Jesus is now destroying Babylon , the lies and traps and false images and idolatry when this is done its DONE , the wrath of God is complete
in tearing down and slaying and burning all things that offend , every unholy abomination and hated thing sin ever held captive
what is sin ? to KNOW to do good and not do it ! we are to do as much good as possible with God and all things are possible with God !
we are to grow up in Christ . that anointing always the doing the Fathers will /desire , not our own desires , the smearing of the HOLY SPIRIT[oil] AND FIRE that Lights up the world and sets it on fire with the Fire of Gods consuming the ONE AND ONLY LIVING GOD FOR ALL TIME
Can we by Faith speak this into becoming a reality , GODS WORD SAYS HE SPOKE IT AND IT WAS SO!!
Without faith in asking we shall receive nothing as a reality
we pray in secret to the FATHER IN JESUS NAME and He will do it !! ask in faith not doubting it , or the wind blows it in all directions /scattering James 1
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.
the Power of God and His Kingdom are here and now to be used to destroy the evil within and without !!
we are to clean the inside first ,,, that you can be useful TO GODS GLORY , for cleaning out all around you by the POWER OF THE SPIRIT AND TRUTH
I agree Rosered, even though I do not have your assemblage of words.
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 04, 2014, 03:57:16 AM
I agree Rosered, even though I do not have your assemblage of words.
:dsunny:
After reading Hebrews 9 and seeing that its read with dying once than Judgment how in the world is he going to appear a second time without the sin issue for salvation if its not now as we wait on him ?
It does not make any sense if your in the literal grave does it ?Romans 7 ...5For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6But now we have been released from the Law,
having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit an
d not in oldness of the letter. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, [Judgment begins in the House of God ]
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many,
will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
---Heb 9:28
This is a picture of the High Priest coming out of the Holy of Holies and saying to the congregation waiting for him in the Tabernacle in the wilderness, 'Your sins are forgiven.' When the High Priest would go into the Most Holy Place, the congregation would wait with bated breath to see if he died in there [their sins not forgiven] or if he returned with the good news.
6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,..
--Heb 9
There is certainly a lot going on here, and yes, much of it is available to us now. But, we are being saved in stages, the outer court to the Most Holy place, spirit, soul, and body. And, body is the last to be saved.
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
--Romans 8
We have not seen this yet and will not see it until the High Priest comes out of the Most Holy place, where he sits now at the right hand of God, to appear to those who are awaiting him. Then we will be given the new wineskins of the immortal body, the flesh and bone body that the Messiah himself wore after the resurrection.
I believe this is a specific event, which is why I now believe the rapture will happen when he returns for his bride at the feast of Trumpets.
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
"Death is swallowed up in victory."
55
"O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?
--1 Cor 15
But thanks be to God, who hath given us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
--1 Cor 15:57
Quoteso Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
---Heb 9:28
This is a picture of the High Priest coming out of the Holy of Holies and saying to the congregation waiting for him in the Tabernacle in the wilderness, 'Your sins are forgiven.' When the High Priest would go into the Most Holy Place, the congregation would wait with bated breath to see if he died in there [their sins not forgiven] or if he returned with the good news.
6Now when these things have been so prepared, the priests are continually entering the outer tabernacle performing the divine worship, 7but into the second, only the high priest enters once a year, not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer tabernacle is still standing,..
--Heb 9
There is certainly a lot going on here, and yes, much of it is available to us now. But, we are being saved in stages, the outer court to the Most Holy place, spirit, soul, and body. And, body is the last to be saved.
Beautiful MOLLY!!!! yes I see this as long as the tabernacle is still standing !
for me the key word is still standing , the man of sin
standing in the Holy Place is where it ought not be , remember ?
Jesus example was that ,
laying down your life for your friends , He laid it down for His enemies !! none were not reconciled to God yet !
Abraham considered His body as good as dead , this is the kind of faith that has real substance to it , the Hope is alive Hebrews 11 ,;12
and Romans 4;And Abraham's faith did not weaken, even though, at about 100 years of age, he ... in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he ... And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body
now dead Lust of the flesh is what stumbles us all sis ! that rising desire to self serving for whatever reason it may be .
Jesus come to serve not be served
sleeping means simply to me , in that sorrowful state of sin sickness and overcome with guilt and doubts.. it opposes faith
it literally works against faith
and allows satan / adversity in thinking of accusing everyone including yourself your unworthiness to approach God and the throne of grace as boldly as we should , you will hide amongst the trees as Adam did in His day and cover yourself with fig leaves , the Law of sin exposes the nakedness of being mortal flesh and blood and no flash and blood enters the Kingdom
thus the saying Jesus says , Matt 23
"Woe to you,
teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!
You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
the letter of the Law is a killer of faith in Jesus Christ , none can keep the law, its Spiritual in nature , and is the enmity against the natural man
no man can get it , thus the need to be Born again of Spirit this one is the only one who can enter ,,'' the Christ'' anointed by God in you the hope of Glory is the only one allowed the one of a kind offspring of the one of a kind Son of God that come as the Son of Man to make the path narrow and straight to God
Gen 28 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a
ladder set up on the earth, and
the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!
prophesied !!
John 1 ;51 And he said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the
Son of Man." fulfilled in Christ !! Jesus Christ is the only one and only way we shall see God !!
the deposit of the Spirit in Jesus must grow by the increase of God, into the man that is of an angel BEING messengers and the rising and falling of many in ISRAEL the Christ is the anointing of the Holy Spirit and fire His Law/Truth is a fire !
as the lies are consumed
I see it as possible that believers are resurrected (fully into new life and put on immortality) during death (which I however think of as nonlife, as the past believers are referred to as - "dead in Christ who will rise before the living believers at His return").
Does this mean nonbelievers go into the LOF at death (immediately)? before judgment? {I however think only a few very stubborn hold outs will even go there.. for agelasting; end of Isaiah 52 says kings will hear what they have not heard and believe what they have not believed. When?}
We are all waiting for Him, if I die before He comes/returns, I have still been waiting for Him, and will awaken in that state.
To me it seems illogical that "hades" a greek vision which was translated into the greek from the original aramaic (which I assume would be closer to the vision of "sheol" where "there is neither thought nor doing") is a place where ppl are alive and around for thousands of years waiting.. seems a bit disorganized to me, and I think of God (Yahweh/Father) as very organized. I think of that first lie, or one of the first, "surely you won't die?" as being lodged very deeply in the human psyche.. thus visions of the dead, etc, and many thinking rescue from death, and its cause, imperfection, is not needed.
:smile:
Either way, doesn't really matter.. but I hope martyrs from long ago are not all "under the altar" for 1000++ years..
Quote from: marie glen on December 04, 2014, 05:02:29 PM
I see it as possible that believers are resurrected (fully into new life and put on immortality) during death (which I however think of as nonlife, as the past believers are referred to as - "dead in Christ who will rise before the living believers at His return").
Does this mean nonbelievers go into the LOF at death (immediately)? before judgment? {I however think only a few very stubborn hold outs will even go there.. for agelasting; end of Isaiah 52 says kings will hear what they have not heard and believe what they have not believed. When?}
We are all waiting for Him, if I die before He comes/returns, I have still been waiting for Him, and will awaken in that state.
To me it seems illogical that "hades" a greek vision which was translated into the greek from the original aramaic (which I assume would be closer to the vision of "sheol" where "there is neither thought nor doing") is a place where ppl are alive and around for thousands of years waiting.. seems a bit disorganized to me, and I think of God (Yahweh/Father) as very organized. I think of that first lie, or one of the first, "surely you won't die?" as being lodged very deeply in the human psyche.. thus visions of the dead, etc, and many thinking rescue from death, and its cause, imperfection, is not needed.
:smile:
Either way, doesn't really matter.. but I hope martyrs from long ago are not all "under the altar" for 1000++ years..
Well I do want to see it right
but have always thought this place is the mass of graves being dead to God because of sin we can see so easily in the world
the chaos the world is in proves to me this is the fires pit of hell /hades the unseen is because no man knows
only the sons of God will ever know what the Father is doing...
Everything Jesus told us and done was from watching His Father and speaking His Fathers words
He claimed nothing of Himself , only saying my Father and I are ONE
ONE SPIRIT ,ONE FAITH. ONE HOPE. ONE BAPTISM, ONE BODY etc
When Jesus was baptised He was bringing judgment to the world and dividing it than by the HOLY SPIRIT AND FIRE , this world is on fire those elements are being dissolved they are the elemenrty things that are custom in ritual and work of mens hands that are in the melting cauldron of this world
HEBREWS 6 is going on into completeness/perfection of Gods working on many right now
we have to be brought low in order to be raised up again into Christ , in my opinion
all of HEBREWS explains the change in the twinkling of an eye from being bound to being set free in Jesus Christ and being matured by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love for His OWN KIND the sons of God to the glory of the Father OUR one and the SAME God
its a small lot but it is a great start and HE will finish what He started
With the Lord, a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. if the souls under the altar ar reallt there in the heavenlies now, I am sure they are not crowded into a holding chamber tucked under some literal huge altar :laugh:
Whatever their state(if the passage is not entirely metaphoric in nature), I am sure they are enrapt in the presence of the Lord they are doin ok :o).
Me, I tend to think "under the altar" refers to the saints being martyred in the NOW of every generation and their cry for retribution(how unspiritual :laugh:), rising like smoke from Sodom, or Abel's blood from the earth- but i also think it is possible that it is actually an "abode" in the heavenlies for the spirits of martyrs, such as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion. I think it likely that both are true, as the heavenly is interwoven with the earthly in more ways that we understand.
Quote from: eaglesway on December 05, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
With the Lord, a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. if the souls under the altar ar reallt there in the heavenlies now, I am sure they are not crowded into a holding chamber tucked under some literal huge altar :laugh:
Whatever their state(if the passage is not entirely metaphoric in nature), I am sure they are enrapt in the presence of the Lord they are doin ok :o).
Me, I tend to think "under the altar" refers to the saints being martyred in the NOW of every generation and their cry for retribution(how unspiritual :laugh:), rising like smoke from Sodom, or Abel's blood from the earth- but i also think it is possible that it is actually an "abode" in the heavenlies for the spirits of martyrs, such as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion. I think it likely that both are true, as the heavenly is interwoven with the earthly in more ways that we understand.
I have found a lot of answers in the Law and prophets that explain many of the scriptures of Revelations already , Just looking into them though
Like King Nebuchadnezzar is one of those heads [on the Dragon ] that was wounded , but was healed Daniel 4 I think
I believe the Bible explains itself , this is just my opinion though
Thank you for your answer John , no man knows only the Spirit of prophecy Knows and that is Jesus Christ witness / testimony and those whom He reveals it , by opening the scriptures and seals of the Book by His Own Spirit
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 06:08:46 PM
but have always thought this place is the mass of graves being dead to God because of sin we can see so easily in the world
the chaos the world is in proves to me this is the fires pit of hell /hades
I agree, the way i might express it is, apocalypse (in it's modern meaning of collapse) began when the forbidden (wrong way) was first plucked..
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 06:08:46 PM
HEBREWS 6 is going on into completeness/perfection of Gods working on many right now
we have to be brought low in order to be raised up again into Christ , in my opinion
all of HEBREWS explains the change in the twinkling of an eye from being bound to being set free in Jesus Christ and being matured by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love for His OWN KIND the sons of God to the glory of the Father OUR one and the SAME God
its a small lot but it is a great start and HE will finish what He started
Amen! He will finish what He started.. was it Paul who said we are "not yet perfected".. He will bring it to pass.. the "power at work in us is the same as rose Jesus from the grave' and parted the red Sea..
:icon_flower:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 05, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
"the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion.
:smile: :smile:
I think of the "great congregation" as the totality of all of us, when all is said and done.. Tho I don't think it's impossible that the dead in Christ are in a different dimension or form of life, I think of it, when Jesus said He would raise us up at the last day (when He raised Lazarus) that it was a total thing, the resurrection that is. saved at the first resurrection and His return, the second of the unsaved "after the thousand years are ended". {The verse, imo, says a thousand years to God, is as a day, not is a day.} The spirit which returns to God i think of as the life force, and or breath.. and the lower part of the earth as the dust of the grave.. tartarus as chains of darkness, not a place, in that having become imperfect could not reverse their course and become again perfect.. and think of Jesus via the Spirit preaching to those who perished at the flood, did so while the ark was being prepared, preached to them that is, not went to hades while three nights and days in the grave and preached, which is the common perception.. Just my way of seeing it, and can't seem to get an different picture of it.. I don't however debate the issue with folks when at their loved ones funeral, for instance! :o :smile:
Quote from: marie glen on December 05, 2014, 11:23:42 PM
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 06:08:46 PM
but have always thought this place is the mass of graves being dead to God because of sin we can see so easily in the world
the chaos the world is in proves to me this is the fires pit of hell /hades
I agree, the way i might express it is, apocalypse (in it's modern meaning of collapse) began when the forbidden (wrong way) was first plucked..
Quote from: rosered on December 04, 2014, 06:08:46 PM
HEBREWS 6 is going on into completeness/perfection of Gods working on many right now
we have to be brought low in order to be raised up again into Christ , in my opinion
all of HEBREWS explains the change in the twinkling of an eye from being bound to being set free in Jesus Christ and being matured by the truth and grace abounding in Christs love for His OWN KIND the sons of God to the glory of the Father OUR one and the SAME God
its a small lot but it is a great start and HE will finish what He started
Amen! He will finish what He started.. was it Paul who said we are "not yet perfected".. He will bring it to pass.. the "power at work in us is the same as rose Jesus from the grave' and parted the red Sea..
:icon_flower:
:dsunny:
Quote from: eaglesway on December 05, 2014, 09:41:45 PM
With the Lord, a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. if the souls under the altar ar reallt there in the heavenlies now, I am sure they are not crowded into a holding chamber tucked under some literal huge altar :laugh:
Whatever their state(if the passage is not entirely metaphoric in nature), I am sure they are enrapt in the presence of the Lord they are doin ok :o).
Me, I tend to think "under the altar" refers to the saints being martyred in the NOW of every generation and their cry for retribution(how unspiritual :laugh:), rising like smoke from Sodom, or Abel's blood from the earth- but i also think it is possible that it is actually an "abode" in the heavenlies for the spirits of martyrs, such as "the spirits of righteous men made perfect" in the Hebrews 12 description of the "great congregation" of heavenly Zion. I think it likely that both are true, as the heavenly is interwoven with the earthly in more ways that we understand.
I believe your "hedging" (and that is not to be offensive in ANY way), but that your points are strong, as you have said many times about the "glass darkly" I find very insightful! :dsunny:
Yea, I tend to hedge when I don't really know for certain, but feel like I am somewhere in the vicinity of the actual truth :laugh:
I do believe the souls under the alter was a vision, a vision John saw, describing the offering that believers who testify for the WORD of the Lord, will face when they bravely speak and stand for the Message of Christ crucified and His covering blood. All that John saw was in Heaven.
Rev 4:1 After these things I perceived, and lo! a door is open in heaven...
I ask do any of us even KNOW a thing about heaven? We know this one thing....heaven is a lifted up and a high place...what else do we know?
We also know this...John was in SPIRIT in the Lord's Day and John was invited to see things in HEAVEN in SPIRIT in the Lord's Day.
Have any of us been there? My :2c:
The whole book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a vision, and, like all visions or dreams, some things appear to be real and some things are mystifying.
Quote from: Tom on December 07, 2014, 05:08:02 PM
The whole book of "The Unveiling Of Jesus Christ [Revelation]" is a vision, and, like all visions or dreams, some things appear to be real and some things are mystifying.
Amen Tom :thumbsup:
For me its lots of Symbolism sym·bol·ism
ˈ
noun
the use of symbols to represent ideas or qualities."he has always believed in the importance of symbolism in garden art"
symbolic meaning attributed to natural objects or facts."the old-fashioned symbolism of flowers"
an artistic and poetic movement or style using symbolic images and indirect suggestion to express mystical ideas, emotions, and states of mind
Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2014, 06:28:38 AM
I do believe the souls under the alter was a vision, a vision John saw, describing the offering that believers who testify for the WORD of the Lord, will face when they bravely speak and stand for the Message of Christ crucified and His covering blood. All that John saw was in Heaven.
Rev 4:1 After these things I perceived, and lo! a door is open in heaven...
I ask do any of us even KNOW a thing about heaven? We know this one thing....heaven is a lifted up and a high place...what else do we know?
We also know this...John was in SPIRIT in the Lord's Day and John was invited to see things in HEAVEN in SPIRIT in the Lord's Day.
Have any of us been there? My :2c:
"Have any of us been there?"
Sure. Those who belong to the church of the Firstborn. They might also be the souls under the altar.
The Glorious Company
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: "And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow." 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, "I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.")
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and
church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
--Hebrews 12