The Trees of Eden

[TheVisitor]

The serpent was one of them. They were parts of the counsel of Elohim.

I don't know where he got the 70 number, but this part (the quote) is kind of what I'm seeing and I've never read what he's talking about.
Like I said before, Proverbs 11:13 probably applies here.

[eaglesway]

 A talebearer is a gossip, as I read it. A faithful person does not gossip, "revealing secrets". I don t see the connection.

[TheVisitor]

A talebearer is a gossip, as I read it. A faithful person does not gossip, "revealing secrets". I don t see the connection.

Not so much gossip. Why did Jesus speak in parables to the multitudes. Some things just aren't for all people at all stages of their journey.

[WhiteWings]

The serpent was one of them. They were parts of the counsel of Elohim.

I don't know where he got the 70 number, but this part is kind of what I'm seeing and I've never read what he's talking about.

Don't blame me for your lack of insight.

Like I said before, Proverbs 11:13 probably applies here.

A talebearer is a gossip, as I read it. A faithful person does not gossip, "revealing secrets".

A righteous person doesn't slander.

I don t see the connection.

You could have learned something on another level. No problem. Keep groveling in your ignorance. Case closed.

Signed,
The unfaithful one.

[TheVisitor]

WhiteWings...

I wasn't calling you a talebearer please don't get me wrong. I was referring to myself. The part I said I was seeing was the part I highlighted in the quote.  But, I'm not quite sure I see that they were "fallen" before the Serpent beguiled Eve. Why else would God say their fruit was good? Fruit is their teaching according to Jesus. I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry for the confusion.

[Seth]

A talebearer is a gossip, as I read it. A faithful person does not gossip, "revealing secrets". I don t see the connection.

I agree. The Hebrew word "rakil" was translated as "slanderer" in other places, connected to the word for merchant, like a hawker/peddler. I think the idea in the proverb is one who goes about betraying a confidence. I could see the idea connected to a merchant as the idea is trading secrets for the pleasure being seen as a knowledgable person, the reward of gossip being seen as an insider and having the praise of men.

Proverbs 20
19He that goeth about [as] a talebearer revealeth secrets: therefore meddle not with him that flattereth with his lips.

The implication being that a tale bearer trades flattery for secrets, then goes about betraying confidences for praise.

[TheVisitor]

trading secrets for the pleasure being seen as a knowledgeable person....., the reward of gossip being seen as an insider and having the praise of men.

Good point. Either of these doesn't sound too good. I'm really beginning to regret I brought it up. It's worse than I thought it was.
Just for the record though, I never claimed I had all this figured out from the start. I'm bouncing ideas off people learning as I go. It seems to help my learning process seeing my thoughts wrote out, editing them down and having to try and answer people's questions.

[Seth]

I actually think that plain speech is pretty good practice, personally speaking.

Matt 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

2 Cor 3
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

I think you are absolutely right, that Christ rarely used plainness of speech, but I think he did that for a specific purpose for a specific time. I think now is the time for us to speak plainly to eachother and to those who are still in the dark about ET etc. I believe as we are given freely, so we should freely give, so if I come across a piece of info that I believe could help someone, I try to be as plain and clear as possible. Just my own personal approach. Everyone has different styles of communicating though, and we all find what is most effective for our purposes.  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

trading secrets for the pleasure being seen as a knowledgeable person....., the reward of gossip being seen as an insider and having the praise of men.

Good point. Either of these doesn't sound to good. I'm really beginning to regret I brought it up. It's worse than I thought it was.
Just for the record though, I never claimed I had all this figured out from the start. I'm bouncing ideas off people learning as I go. It seems to help my learning process seeing my thoughts wrote out, editing them down and having to try and answer people questions.

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I actually think that plain speech is pretty good practice, personally speaking.

Matt 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

2 Cor 3
12Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:


I think you are absolutely right, that Christ rarely used plainness of speech, but I think he did that for a specific purpose for a specific time. I think now is the time for us to speak plainly to eachother and to those who are still in the dark about ET etc. I believe as we are given freely, so we should freely give, so if I come across a piece of info that I believe could help someone, I try to be as plain and clear as possible. Just my own personal approach. Everyone has different styles of communicating though, and we all find what is most effective for our purposes.  :HeartThrob:

..That's awesome!   :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

..."being planted as "trees of righteousness". Having living water coming out of our bellies or inner most being, with twelve manner of fruit and leaves for the healing of the nations."

..water came out of Jesus' side when He was "pierced" ..blood and water.. blood being redemption, water being life giving.. like Eve came out of Adam's rib, so too "a bone of Him was not broken" (I just read that in some footnotes this morning)..

Breaking Him (the bread of life) on the cross, was redemptive, but also opened up the floodwaters of the Life Giving Spirit to flow toward the body of believers and also through believers .."in your innermost part will be a fountain of fresh water.."

..I've always figured Jesus spoke in parables because it is part of God's plan/drama/truth-play that only some find redemption and life during this life time..

..."being planted as "trees of righteousness". Having living water coming out of our bellies or inner most being, with twelve manner of fruit and leaves for the healing of the nations."

I think it will require a thousand years (millennium) to prepare ourselves for the (long lasting?) day of judgment (review of all human history).. wherein I believe there will be much weeping and wailing, even among the saved/elect, as history is reviewed.. (by the elect, as sorrow, even shock weeping)

Before God's (deeply?) engraving of His law of love (and obedience in thought, word and deed) upon the hearts, minds and psyche` of all "in heaven and earth" the "government" (under high angel Lucifer) was able to become corrupt, but once all ("in heaven and earth") are in Jesus and fully understand that God is life and also perfection and to disagree with Him in any tiny way is to become imperfect, the opposite of life.. That it simply cannot be done..

If God had not built into creation from the very beginning (foundation) the redemption/rescue, we would all perish.. When God endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about, because with thinking ability, sooner or later, comes the ability to choose. And so.. life as we presently know it. But what was God's other option? No rational creatures ever?

:Peace2: :smile:

[micah7:9]

Could you elaborate pls? "When God endowed thinking ability to angel and man, a whole new world (or tree) of possibilities came about, because with thinking ability, sooner or later, comes the ability to choose. And so.. life as we presently know it. But what was God's other option? No rational creatures ever?"

[eaglesway]

trading secrets for the pleasure being seen as a knowledgeable person....., the reward of gossip being seen as an insider and having the praise of men.

Good point. Either of these doesn't sound too good. I'm really beginning to regret I brought it up. It's worse than I thought it was.
Just for the record though, I never claimed I had all this figured out from the start. I'm bouncing ideas off people learning as I go. It seems to help my learning process seeing my thoughts wrote out, editing them down and having to try and answer people's questions.

That's cool bro(bro?), there is no "worse". Our discussions involve a fair amount of back and forth due to the limitations of the medium and as we get to kno each other's minds/perspectives. There is a fair amount of disagreement as well, but we just want to stay in an edifying spirit- a humble exchange of ideas.

I hav learned so much from brothers and sisters on the forum, especially through our sometimes disagreements, which test the mettle of our beliefs and hopefully broaden all of our horizons.

[jabcat]

WhiteWings...

I wasn't calling you a talebearer please don't get me wrong. I was referring to myself. The part I said I was seeing was the part I highlighted in the quote.  But, I'm not quite sure I see that they were "fallen" before the Serpent beguiled Eve. Why else would God say their fruit was good? Fruit is their teaching according to Jesus. I didn't mean to offend you. Sorry for the confusion.

Appears a misunderstanding.  Your apology is gracious.

[TheVisitor]

I have learned so much from brothers and sisters on the forum, especially through our sometimes disagreements, which test the mettle of our beliefs and hopefully broaden all of our horizons.

The people here have added so much, been so kind. You've given this more of a positive reception than I ever expected. Even with the new insight that one's own personal motivations for perhaps wanting to appear knowledgeable about such things are in fact betraying a confidence or seeking the praise of men, and that is some brutal introspection...I still consider it a positive learning experience.
However, I have realized there is quite possibly a real need for some hesitation here, some circumspection on this topic. If the trees did represent some kind of angelic council, I must now stop to consider the implications if true, of all that could mean. First thing comes to mind are the warnings of II Peter 2:12 and Jude 1:10 to those who would talk of things they really don't understand. I don't want to fall into that category, or be the cause of others doing so either. I think I fit pretty well already into the "don't understand" part, but I would like to stop short of being counted as "someone who continues to talk about it".  I don't think I have much more to offer here. Not at this time anyway.

[marie glen]

I have learned so much from brothers and sisters on the forum, especially through our sometimes disagreements, which test the mettle of our beliefs and hopefully broaden all of our horizons.

The people here have added so much, been so kind. You've given this more of a positive reception than I ever expected. Even with the new insight that one's own personal motivations for perhaps wanting to appear knowledgeable about such things are in fact betraying a confidence or seeking the praise of men, and that is some brutal introspection...I still consider it a positive learning experience.
However, I have realized there is quite possibly a real need for some hesitation here, some circumspection on this topic. If the trees did represent some kind of angelic council, I must now stop to consider the implications if true, of all that could mean. First thing comes to mind are the warnings of II Peter 2:12 and Jude 1:10 to those who would talk of things they really don't understand. I don't want to fall into that category, or be the cause of others doing so either. I think I fit pretty well already into the "don't understand" part, but I would like to stop short of being counted as "someone who continues to talk about it".  I don't think I have much more to offer here. Not at this time anyway.

hi! I like to stick pretty close to just reading the Word. Sure there are spiritual application to many things, but for example, to me, trees in the garden would be just that.. Why would the Word be so mysterious? When it says Lucifer was part of the "covering" of the garden.. So many times I wonder, why shroud and cloak in mists of mytery things which are spoken openly and plainly in other portions of the Word?

I think we have enough mysteries, like Jesus being the bread of life.. we can believe that, because Jesus said it.. But there are times when people are simply baking or eating simple bread, eating a meal and not in mystical union with God but just simply have a loaf of bread they made.. We can however think of the mystical applications of bread and sharing bread, on and on, but the days are short.. If we read more straightforward, perhaps it will be a better redeeming of time..  :Chinscratch: :2c: :2c:

[TheVisitor]

To me, trees in the garden would be just that... Why would the Word be so mysterious?

Many reasons, for one the example I just made from II Peter 2:12 and Jude 1:10. Not causing people to speak evil of things they don't understand or have been taught differently. Another example would be for separation. The Word separates from all unbelief. It separates you from unbelief, and unbelief from you. It is a two edged sword. Some will still believe even though they don't understand it while others will walk away. John 6:66. Another thing is what I would call the "nursery rhyme factor". You would tell your children when they are very young things in such a way they would understand as a child..."trees, eating fruit, etc...Then when they are of "full age" you tell them plainly when they can understand. God does the same thing with His children. Paul taught this way...Babes, milk, full age, strong meat. Then there is this... "The Spirit searches out the deep things of God" His Children He has promised to "raise up" in this day (Hosea 6:2) will not be satisfied with milk and shallow teachings for long. They will grow past it and need deeper things to feed their souls and mature in the Word.

When it says Lucifer was part of the "covering" of the garden... So many times I wonder, why shroud and cloak in mists of mystery...

He was called a "covering Cherub" for one and was also said to have been "made perfect" with "every precious stone as his covering" and many other things. We are also being made perfect in this day. "Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" A rock or stone is a revelation from God. When Peter said to Jesus; "you are the Christ, the Son of the Living God", Jesus said; "This understanding came not by flesh and blood, but was given to you of the Father and upon this rock"...What rock? The revelation of who He is... "I'll build my church, and the gates of hell shall not stand against it". Lucifer had every precious stone...the understanding of every revelation and knew who God is, yet he turned away. Christ is arming His church with the only weapon that can withstand him. The same thing. A clear, complete, understanding of the Word of God and who He is.

I think we have enough mysteries,... If we read more straightforward, perhaps it will be a better redeeming of time...

To just read over the Word without desiring a deeper understanding of the meaning would in my opinion not be a "better redeeming of the time" but exactly the opposite. After a certain point, it would be spending your time in vain. What purpose does it serve to read something over and over again, without understanding it. It becomes a vain repetition. God doesn't want that. He said so. When young Christians are just starting out it is normal for them to desire the "sincere milk of the Word". They should start with the first principles such as repentance, baptism, the laying on of hands as Paul taught. The obvious, simple things. Sure. But as they mature they must reach a point when the time for that "milk" is over. Hebrews 6:1. The end result being we must have our senses exercised in the discernment of  both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14. That has to do first and foremost with an understanding of the Word, since Lucifer was the most proficient being ever created at wielding it. He even tried using it against Jesus did he not?. I believe that takes us back and ties in to the opening post on this topic. Full circle. But I do I hope I have not offended you.

[rosered]

  Hi Vister
I  found this long ago as helpful  ,  very helpful .
  I had to unlearn a lot of things and relearn    many things  that confused me
I am sharing this only because I care for you and the truth is far more  helpful   and loving than believing those things that do not makes sense .

  God bless you with   More of the Lords Spirit and truth ,    we are all hungering and thirsting after His righteousness
I hope you stay , you are in a good place  here at the Tent with some wonderful    brothers and sisters in the Lord and the info page is also well stocked 
  Glad your sharing what is in your heart   
here is the shortest  answer I can find , but if you research this with google or any other  service you will  find a lot of good articles   about the    latin word Lucifer    the Babylonian King  of Tyre

Where did the name "Lucifer" come from?

Despite the popular mythology about a wicked angel called Lucifer, the word only occurs once in the Bible and it has nothing to do with angels. The name Lucifer comes from Isaiah 14:12 which says (in the KJV)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning...
This is the only place in the Bible where the word Lucifer occurs and it does not occur at all in most modern versions. If you look back to verse 4 it is clear that this passage is about the king of Babylon Also Isaiah 14:16-17 calls him a "man" — not a fallen angel! So how did the name become associated with an angel?

Lucifer is a Latin word meaning the "morning star" or Venus, the brightest object in the sky just before dawn. In fact, modern versions translate the word as "morning star". The king of Babylon was very proud and imagined himself to be a god. He said "I will make myself like the Most High" (v14) and apparently thought of himself as being "in heaven" like Venus. Instead, he fell to the earth in defeat. Isaiah describes him as a metaphorical morning star — appearing bright and elevated, but about to plunge below the horizon and disappear.

A similar passage is Ezekiel 28 which is about the king of Tyre, although it is also often incorrectly interpreted as applying to a wicked angel.


  :friendstu:

[TheVisitor]

The name Lucifer comes from Isaiah 14:12 which says (in the KJV)How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning...

If you look back to verse 4 it is clear that this passage is about the king of Babylon Also Isaiah 14:16-17 calls him a "man" — not a fallen angel! So how did the name become associated with an angel?

Good point and true the passages start out talking about men, the kings of Babylon or Tyre. But if you take the entire passages in context they are not only talking about these men. A son of the morning fallen from heaven is talking about an angel not a man, a Cherub. That is not a man. In Ezekiel 28:13 the Cherub that had been in Eden the garden of God was not a man.  Again it was plainly identified as a Cherub. The king of Tyre was never in the garden of God, on the holy mountain or walked amongst the stones of fire. Lucifer the angel was. The part you are confused about is when they switch back and forth between describing the man and the angel in the same verse. There is a reason for that. These men were being used as hosts by a spiritual being that is a separate entity from the men. So the scripture has to switch back and forth between the two. It can be confusing but make no mistake. Satan is a real being. It was done that way for our example so we could understand how he works in humanity, not to be explained away by astronomy. I have read that explanation before. Pagans who worshiped astronomy had to be placated by the early roman church and brought into the fold by compromising on the Word. Rome did this with all the pagan religions they could. Read about it by doing a google on the Nicene council 325 A.D.

[micah7:9]

"Again it was plainly identified as a Cherub. The king of Tyre was never in the garden of God, on the holy mountain or walked amongst the stones of fire. Lucifer the angel was. The part you are confused about is when they switch back and forth between describing the man and the angel in the same verse." Thevistor

I must refrain from entering this discussion unless you my friend can show me scripture and verse as to where in the Bible that "lucifer" was ever made an angel. The adversary is identified in Rev. 12:9 and Rev. 20:2 and I fail to see a reference to "lucifer." I my friend am not confused, not at all.
Rev_12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev_20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[joeteekay]

I agree with Micah.  I too do not wish to engage in a discussion on Lucifer.
When I read the link below taken from bibletruths.com, it explained a great deal about this wrong understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

:2c:

[micah7:9]

I agree with Micah.  I too do not wish to engage in a discussion on Lucifer.
When I read the link below taken from bibletruths.com, it explained a great deal about this wrong understanding.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html

:2c:

Thank you :dsunny:

[sheila]

Isaaih 25;7   on this mountain He will destroy the shroud[covering cherub] that enfolds all people. the sheet that COVERS ALL NATIONS

  please note palm trees and cherubs worked into veil/tent/temple curtains.   rent flesh/veil[flesh and blood can not enter or please God]

    when sin entered[man's flesh] the wage of the deed was death/shroud...image of corrupt...that seperates us from God...[see goats separated..into lof with demons]....

    when we see Him face to face,we are like Him[in His image]

   now satan has his angels..and God his..and Michael[who is like God?] stands up.........and all the people are delivered.

   there was war in heaven..satan and his angels fought and Michael and his angels[woe to the earth and those who dwell in it

for the devil has come down.   when you think on these things..consider the temple curtain rent..and the cherubs and palm trees

   embroidered into them.....also check out  the work of an embroiderer and embroidered garments in the scriptures.

[eaglesway]

I fully agree that Satan is a being. As far as the origin "story" and whether Ezekiel 28 refers to Adam prophetically or Satan/Lucifer or is limited to the actual king of Tyre- her's what I think(regardless of whether anyone cares  :laugh:).

There is no solid ground upon which to teach any of the three views.

We get real literal when it supports our view, real metaphoric to support another view.

It is clearly a matter of interpretation.

For instance in Isaiah 27:1

In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea. In that day sing ye unto her, A vineyard of red wine.

One could use the verses in Revelation 12 and rev 14 and rev 20and reasonably interpret this as a prophetic reference to the appearing of the Lord in glory at the end of this age.

One could also interpret this in light of Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.....

as a look into the slaying of the carnal mind by the sword of the Spirit and the fruitfulness that comes when that has occurred.


Both would be correct actually, imo.


So, one person can say what Ezekiel 28 "clearly" does or does not represent, they may or may not be correct.

Either way, as to whether Lucifer is Adam or Satan - requires a fair amount of interpretation.


In either case, as regards these kinds of issues - we ought to share our views, or not as we choose, in a humble and non-confrontational manner :o)

[eaglesway]

Isaaih 25;7   on this mountain He will destroy the shroud[covering cherub] that enfolds all people. the sheet that COVERS ALL NATIONS

  please note palm trees and cherubs worked into veil/tent/temple curtains.   rent flesh/veil[flesh and blood can not enter or please God]

    when sin entered[man's flesh] the wage of the deed was death/shroud...image of corrupt...that seperates us from God...[see goats separated..into lof with demons]....

    when we see Him face to face,we are like Him[in His image]

   now satan has his angels..and God his..and Michael[who is like God?] stands up.........and all the people are delivered.

   there was war in heaven..satan and his angels fought and Michael and his angels[woe to the earth and those who dwell in it

for the devil has come down.   when you think on these things..consider the temple curtain rent..and the cherubs and palm trees

   embroidered into them.....also check out  the work of an embroiderer and embroidered garments in the scriptures.

Although I don't disagree with your point, I do not see "covering cherub" in Isaiah 25:7....only "covering", as in veil or shroud.