Souls Under the Altar

[WhiteWings]

Yes Seth symbolic !    is describing   things as to what they   are literally   
as to seas being many  tongues and nations and peoples for instance      !

Yep that's what I mean.
Symbolic is often like the middle ground. It can be symbolic for the natural or the spiritual. Often both at the same time. The good shepherd parable is the most simple example of that.


From a pure language pov I likely should have used symbolically instead of literally. I didn't because in my experience many who oppose the literal view only believe in something spiritual. I, for example, believe in a last great war with literal weapons, literal people dying, when fighting for/against the literal Israel (and allies). Not only something spiritual in which Jesus enters your life and you defeat satan with a few prayers or something similar.

:friendstu:

[rosered]

Yes Seth symbolic !    is describing   things as to what they   are literally   
as to seas being many  tongues and nations and peoples for instance      !

Yep that's what I mean.
Symbolic is often like the middle ground. It can be symbolic for the natural and the spiritual. And often both at the same time. The good shepherd parable is the most simple example of that.


From a pure language pov I likely should have used symbolically instead of literally. I didn't because in my experience many who oppose the literal view only believe in something spiritual. I, for example, believe in last great war with literal weapons, literal people dying, when fighting for/against the literal Israel (and allies). Not only something spiritual in which Jesus enters your life and you defeat satan with few prayers or something similar.

:friendstu:

:thumbsup:       :dsunny:         I see the symbolic as the old heavens and earth     as of the earthly kind    and the need for the new ones  as to being Spiritual in   nature       as both kinds exist       and not to confuse the two       , this is   just my opinion     bro!    :gimmefive:

[eaglesway]

wheels within wheels ;)

[joeteekay]

From WW post #63

John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.

My comment:

I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the  7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm.  Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO

:2c:

[WhiteWings]

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO

That means all we see in John's vision must also have a earthly counterpart.

"presbyteros" indeed has the meaning you gave in Greek but imo that's missing the point. You should look what it means in the Hebrew mind. Just as in the Greek the Hebrew elders were old and wise. Not much difference there.
The Jewish elders are the original 12 tribal elders, leaders or whatever you prefer to call them. Their function was to let their own tribe prosper which wasn't always good for the nation (12 tribes combined). In Rev 4:4 there is some sort of co-reign between a tribal elder and a kingdom elder (Apostle)

I'm not 100% sure about this....
The elders can't be Levites because they never were part of the 12 tribes. The Levites are the 13th tribe. The only tribe without land. They were leaders of the Temple which stood on the land of another tribe.

12+1
12 tribal elders + 1 Levite = High priest
12 apostles + 1 Jesus=High Priest

BTW white robes and crown aren't reserved for Levites only.
Every groom was dressed like a king (as far as his budget went) during his marriage.
They always wore a white robe. Because most were very poor most had a crown of roses. With thorns BTW. The rose symbolized the beauty of marriage and the thorns the bad times in marriage. Jesus wore a crown on the cross...


This is getting a bit of topic. My point is if we in the OT read about tribal elders we read/know they are leaders of the various tribes (yes also old and wise), why assume in Revelation they suddenly are something else? (just old, Levites, maybe not human at all)

[WhiteWings]

I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.

I'm not sure what you are saying Tom....
Are you saying that because at the time of the vision (late 1st century AD) all the saints below the altar were still dead Johns vision must be symbolic?
If so I think we don't have enough information to conclude that.
A vision may show a future event that will happen 100% exactly the same as the vision shows. For me that's literal too. For me news on TV are literal events too. Even if it doesn't happen when I'm watching the news because most of it is recorded hours ago. That makes it literal past events. John saw literal future events. And not even that is certain because Father could have put John in a 'time machine' and John was actually transported into the future.
But as said, we don't really know because God isn't limited to just one method of giving visions.

:2c:

[rosered]

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO

That means all we see in John's vision must also have a earthly counterpart.

"presbyteros" indeed has the meaning you gave in Greek but imo that's missing the point. You should look what it means in the Hebrew mind. Just as in the Greek the Hebrew elders were old and wise. Not much difference there.
The Jewish elders are the original 12 tribal elders, leaders or whatever you prefer to call them. Their function was to let their own tribe prosper which wasn't always good for the nation (12 tribes combined). In Rev 4:4 there is some sort of co-reign between a tribal elder and a kingdom elder (Apostle)

I'm not 100% sure about this....
The elders can't be Levites because they never were part of the 12 tribes. The Levites are the 13th tribe. The only tribe without land. They were leaders of the Temple which stood on the land of another tribe.

12+1
12 tribal elders + 1 Levite = High priest
12 apostles + 1 Jesus=High Priest

BTW white robes and crown aren't reserved for Levites only.
Every groom was dressed like a king (as far as his budget went) during his marriage.
They always wore a white robe. Because most were very poor most had a crown of roses. With thorns BTW. The rose symbolized the beauty of marriage and the thorns the bad times in marriage. Jesus wore a crown on the cross...


This is getting a bit of topic. My point is if we in the OT read about tribal elders we read/know they are leaders of the various tribes (yes also old and wise), why assume in Revelation they suddenly are something else? (just old, Levites, maybe not human at all)

  This is   great stuff Bro T

    and it makes sense   Jesus told them     they would be  judging with Him , just as the 12   elders were   already   in the regeneration

  and that is what is  going on now though the natural man and eyes do not see it at all       

and Johns Vision was at hand , it was coming  quickly ,  and coming to pass   , the Roman rulers   Nero in that day    was the beastly king


and Do believe every  generation has these  types and shadows to    be fulfilled      in them  making Gods Word    perpetual   as Jesus saying   man shall not live by bread alone  but every WORD that proceeds  out of His mouth       
we know Jesus is the bread of Life   ,   yet the Law   of Moses is also in effect / the natural force  is not abated  still     as some are going though this   transition  , the times and seasons till every jot and tittle is 
fulfilled     in that generation      and the new  regeneration   begins in them 

  I am under   the impression it is  individually      as to one by one   He visits us this is why no one Knows BUT GOD HIMSELF 

A thief in the night does  surprise    the  sleeping   house holder  and this is how He comes to us  when you least expect it

[Tom]

I think some things in Revelation seem to be "literal," and some seem to be "figurative." But I think it's important to remember it is one man's "vision" of the future just like the "vision" in Matthew 17:1-9. I believe Moses and Elijah are mortals waiting for Christ to rouse them from the dead, but they appeared alive in the vision just like the "souls under the altar" in Revelation.

I'm not sure what you are saying Tom....
Are you saying that because at the time of the vision (late 1st century AD) all the saints below the altar were still dead Johns vision must be symbolic?
If so I think we don't have enough information to conclude that.
A vision may show a future event that will happen 100% exactly the same as the vision shows. For me that's literal too. For me news on TV are literal events too. Even if it doesn't happen when I'm watching the news because most of it is recorded hours ago. That makes it literal past events. John saw literal future events. And not even that is certain because Father could have put John in a 'time machine' and John was actually transported into the future.
But as said, we don't really know because God isn't limited to just one method of giving visions.

:2c:

I think the dead saints under the altar (Revelation 6:9,10) in John's vision were crying out to God in the same sense as Abel's blood crying from the ground (Genesis 4:10) as was mentioned by Laz earlier. I brought up the other vision (Matthew 17:1-9) as a reminder that dead folks can appear alive in visions. I think visions or dreams contain symbolic imagery that reveal something to us, but there are different interpretations of John's vision.

[sheila]

imo ..the saints blood[life of Christ in the blood]  and the rest/Christ they were in and counseled to remain in a little while longer

   were crying out to God..for Him to make His move to destroy the kingdom of darkness.  venegeance is mine..sayeth the Lord

   I shall recompense[patience of the saints/awaiting His deliverance from evil] 

[rosered]

From WW post #63

John even saw himself in Rev 4:4 because the 24 elders are the 12 original tribal elders and the 12 kingdom elders.

My comment:

I see this differently:
Before the time of revealing of the opening of the  7 seals we are introduced to the happenings in the throne room of God.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

Since these beings have thrones, they have some type of delegated authority from God. They are termed "elders" (from the Greek "presbyteros") which generally refers to wisdom from age. It may be that they resemble aged men. Possibly these elders may have been among the beings created some time in the past even before the Cherubim and angelic realm.  Before the physical universe was created. Since their white robes (EXO 28) and golden crowns (LEV 8:9) parallel the dress of the Levitical priests, these spiritual elders may presently serve in heaven as priests of God under the High Priest, Jesus Christ; their primary role does seem to be the continual worship of God. If they are spirit elder priests, then God inspired David to choose 24 courses of Levitical priests to equal the number of the elders around His throne.

The reality is that the earthly stuff is just a shadow of the heavenly IMO

:2c:

  Hi Joe    I thought about this for a  bit and considered  them to be the watchers  and of the Ancients   in Daniel they ate the ones determining  King Nebuchadnezzar

  sentence   watchers      Strong's H5894 - `iyr   the guardians   watchers   scriptures  in Daniel 4

  Hebrews 11;2  And by this there was a testimony/witness  concerning the ancients.

here is some of the scriptures concerning them


Dan 7:9   I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
  thrones cast down

lDan 7:13   I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
lDan 7:22   Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Here are the remaining matches.
Job 12:12   With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
Psa 77:5   I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times.
Isa 23:7   Is this your joyous city, whose antiquity is of ancient days? her own feet shall carry her afar off to sojourn.
Isa 51:9   Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?
Rev 20:4   And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  Just really do not know ,

  I did noticed some   it was for the testimony of Jesus being the new  testament and the     Word of God being of the old   testament ,
        but thought it was interesting

 

[Tom]

Here's some interesting information relevant to the original post.

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheUnveiling/TheUnveiling019.htm

[dajomaco]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

Why where the white  robes only given to those under the altar, after they cried out?
Who gave them the white robes?



Where these the same white robes

Rev 7 : 14
Then one of the elders asked me,

"Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?"

14 I said to him, "Sir,[c] you know."
Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God,
and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary.
The One seated on the throne will shelter[d] them:
16 They will no longer hunger;
they will no longer thirst;
the sun will no longer strike them,
nor will any heat.
17 For the Lamb who is at the center of the throne
will shepherd them;
He will guide them to springs of living waters,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

[eaglesway]

Zech 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

[eaglesway]

Ezekiel 44:10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord God, and they shall bear their iniquity.

13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.(outer court service)

15 But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord God:

16 They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.

17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.(innermost court service/holy of holies/overcomers reward)

18 They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat(no fleshly religion/works/law).

[eaglesway]

1 Cor 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones(zadok), wood, hay, stubble(defiled levite);

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward(holy of holies service).

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

[eaglesway]

Phil 2:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:(white linen)

10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;(souls under the altar)

11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect(mature), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal(apocalypsei) even this unto you.

  Revelationn 1:1  The Revelation(apocalypsis) of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants,

[eaglesway]

Malachi 3:1 "Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will [lear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming," says the Lord of hosts. 2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect(Zadok).

James 3:12 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

13 Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom(Zadok). 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing(defiled Levite 1 Cor 3:wood,hay,stubble). 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace(Zadok).

[Tony N]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."

Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.

[Tom]

Amen

[dajomaco]

Rev. 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Who are these souls, why are they talking, and what do they mean?

What John was seeing was thousands of years in the future from his vantage point on Patmos. He was taken in spirit into the future day of the Lord. He wasn't "in spirit on the Lord's day" as if it were Saturday or Sunday. So the souls under the alter is actually figuratively speaking of those believers who were slain as if they were slain on an altar and their blood ran under the altar. The old testament says "the soul is in the blood."

Just as Abel's blood cried out in a figurative sense (blood doesn't really talk, now does it?) so the blood of those slain were, in a sense, crying out for justice.

Rev 7 : 14
Then one of the elders asked me,

"Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?"

14 I said to him, "Sir,[c] you know."
Then he told me:
These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation.
They washed their robes and made them white
in the blood of the Lamb.

These white robed people used the blood of Jesus to make their robes white.

Do the people under the alter use their own blood to make the robes white?

[Tom]

"they whiten them in the blood of the Lambkin" (Revelation 7:14)

[dajomaco]

My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?

[Tony N]

My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?

dajomaco, it is all symbolism. People don't literally wash their robes in Christ's blood or literally whiten them in Christ's literal blood.

[Tony N]

My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?

A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.

[dajomaco]

My question is does the believer who's blood is spilt
have an advantage over a believer who dies peacefully,
when it comes to getting a white robe?

A believer of the Circumcision, who is martyred for Christ will have license to the fruit of the tree/log of life in the New City Jerusalem when it lands on the earth (Rev.22:14).
The Circumcision one not martyred might not be accorded the same privilege.

I have thought what purpose would there be in willing,
allowing myself to be killed for the cause of Christ.

Some early Christians hid in the catacombs.

Others (disciples openly declared Jesus) and where martyred.

I know the Spirit can give us courage to do all things.

Is there some kind of bonus for being Martyred?