Eternal life/heaven is biblical though... right?

[Seth]

So as not to get off track from Vic's question, I would say that either way, immortality is definitely a promise in the Gospel, so Matt Slick's reasoning regarding the word "aionios" is not a valid argument. Aionios judgement is not set in contrast to immortality but to not receiving the spirit in this age or the next unto salvation from sin.

[Tom]

I appreciate these replies!  Very helpful.  Now, if someone could only tell me (in laymen's terms) what the difference between eternal life and immortality is, I think I'll be set.

Oh, and are you, Tom, saying by "different classes" that some will have it "better" than others, or are you only referring to the time at which they get to see "heaven"?

Christ has already been vivified, given immortality, or life beyond death in a spiritual body. Next we believers will receive the same when Christ meets us in the air. Then, at the consummation of the eons, those who were condemned to the second death will be vivified when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26).

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

I believe God is operating all according to his will. God chose some before the disruption of the world to be saved in grace through faith, not of works, from the coming indignation to have eonian life in Christ. Those not chosen do not have faith, or believe, but will eventually come to know Christ by sight when they are judged before the great white throne and then condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." But the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So they will not be conscious to be tortured in fire. Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. They must be supernatural creatures not subject to death because "the lake of fire" is "the second death." So I think God will be merciful to unbelievers by simply causing them to be unaware of the last eon while we are alive, and it is not necessarily a violent death they will suffer. I think they may even become unconscious from the sulfur dioxide before they are cast into the lake of fire. Some may be curious why unbelievers should suffer this fate if it was God who chose some to believe and not others. I trust God to do what is righteous according to his will, and I think those who will not be alive for the last eon will be very blessed to see that they are alive and know that they will never die again at the consummation of the eons. That is the difference between the truth of scripture and church doctrine. The ultimate goal is that God will be "all in all." So, regardless of whether some are chosen for eonian life or not, God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. So it seems our parts have been chosen for us to play in the grand drama of the universe during the eons, but, because God is love, I think all will be blessed beyond even what we can imagine at the consummation of the eons when we will all be filled with God's love to the max. It's really a blessing to have this expectation rather than the hopeless horror of what the church has to offer. It's hard to try to convince church folks of this though. I think we just have to try to share the truth in love with them, and let God convince those he chooses to believe it. I think they may still be our brothers and sisters in Christ even though they don't fully understand the evangel. I believe creation and reconciliation have the same scope, but it seems that's not what most believers think.     

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

PS: So called "eternal life" is just a mistranslation, which should be "eonian life" because the Greek "aionion" is the adjective of the Greek "aion," literally "eon," which is a period of time not infinite time, which "eternal" describes. Folks say "eternal life" because they're unaware of the fact that it is an inaccurate translation, and they usually mean what scripture calls "immortality," which is life beyond death that all mankind will eventually have at the consummation of the eons. Believers will actually receive it before that though when Christ meets us in the air.

[eaglesway]

Hi Vic,

I am going to give you a different view. Some here may disagree with me.

To start, "aionios"(greek) is a translation of the word "olam"(Hebrew). There are literally hundreds of occurences of the word olam in the OT- as well as any hebrew/Aramaic NT.

Olam is a word that means, "in the far distance" or "beyond the horizon".

Hebrews used the word to describe the "world to come". They used it to define the life of God. It is a word with a somewhat indeterminate meaning, finding its absolute definition in the context in which it is used and from the subject unto which it is connected, SO.......


Olam can mean eternal/forever/everlasting, IMO.

It can also mean the "far distant past".

It can also mean "the far distant future".

it can also mean "other world", as in the world we cannot see because we are still in the flesh- the world of the spirit in which God and the angels abide, and within which we will eventually abide.

The important thing is what it is describing in the context.

For example.....

Gen 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the Lord, the Everlasting God.(Yahweh El Olam). Here olam is the indeterminat AND endless time of God's duration, defined by HIM.


Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old(me olam- were of old), men of renown. Here olam means the far distant past, antiquity- again always incorporating the indeterminate aspect of beyond the horizon.

Gen 49:26

26 "The blessings of your father
Have surpassed the blessings of my ancestors
Up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills (gibot olam);
May they be on the head of Joseph,
And on the crown of the head of the one distinguished among his brothers.

Here olam has an "utmost bound" meaning the "furthest limit". It is beyond the horizon(of man's perception)  but it is definitely NOT ETERNAL, it has a limit, that limit in this case being the duration of said hills.

Deut 15:16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;

17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.(olam)  Here the period described by olam is the rest of the servants life- definitely not eternal.


Exodus 3:15

God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever(olam), and this is My memorial-name to all generations.

Here God takes the name OLAM. It is translated forever, but it means so much more. Truly God is beyond our horizon. He lives forever, He is eternal, but more than that(because that is simple- all kno that) he is BEYOND OUR HORIZON as it is written in these most powerful UR verses

Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

In OT usage, Olam most frequently means "enduring open ended", which can be into the past or into the future, like "perpetual generations" or "everlasting covenant" or "age during hills", and out of 490 some occurrences it is hard to limit it to "an age with a beginning and an end" as many UR people do in translating olam to aionios and defining it as a period of set duration. I consider that a weak argument myself.

So, in my opinion, you rarely win someone to the truth by definitions of Greek and Hebrew words. It is better to declare the salvation of all and speak the scriptures that declare it plainly(eph 1:9-11, Col 1:16-21, 1 cor 15, rom 11:23-36, 1 john 2:1-2, 1 tim 2:4) because if they wont hear those verses, they wont hear anything anyway. The definitions of greek and hebrew words like olam, aionios, sheol, gehenna, etc. are powerful witnesses for sure- but in my opinion more in the way of confirmation for those who are already hearing the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Psalm 24:7
Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient(olam) doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
8 Who is the King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up, O ancient(olam) doors,
That the King of glory may come in!

[Seth]

This from another thread:

olam simply means 'horizon'. When prefixed with a lamed, it is an indication of time 'to the horizon'. If they wanted to indicate time beyond that, they would say l'olam wa'ed meaning 'to horizon and beyond' or 'further.' Pretty simple, actually :)

In my opinion, and from all the scholarship I have seen on "olam" it means "horizon" or "to the horizon." The thing about the horizon, is that it is visible. We can see it. But we cannot necessarily see the details of it. The details are fuzzy but the horizon itself not unseen, which is why it is treated as an end point, and the addition of other Hebrew words communicates "beyond." So, to me, that gives and indication that olam is similar to aion, which is the concept of an age, where the details are not seen, but the endpoint is at least visible.

I personally see a repeated concept in the Bible where olam God is conjoined with "generations" indicating to me that the idea of olam God is that he is the God present from generation to generation. Just my own thoughts and belief on it.

[eaglesway]

No offence, but whatever scholarship you've seen in this case is deficient. Olam is connected with generations in a certain percentage of its usage- but always as "perpetual" generations. Olam is used as perpetual (enduring open ended)- generations is simply the subject, same as in "olam hills". Olam is clearly, in every analysis and definition I have read, an indicator of long, indefinite duration. Reading over 490 usages and seeing the great variety of applications for the word, it is always unseen, open ended, beyond what is seen into the furure or past or eternity.

Brown-Driver-Briggs
עוֺלָם439 noun masculine long duration, antiquity, futurity; —
2. a. indefinite futurity, with preposition for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Deuteronomy 15:17; 1 Samuel 27:12; Job 40:28; ׳עָבַד לע serve for ever Exodus 21:6 (E), Leviticus 25:46; ׳עד ע 1 Samuel 1:22; ׳גְּאֻלַּת ע Leviticus 25:32 redemption at any time; ׳הֲרַ

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,
Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).



In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam.   http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html

Some words in Hebrew carry a much broader meaning than an equivalent English word. The word shem
for example, is the word we translate as name. But shem is not necessarily speaking about what we call
somebody as much as it is speaking about the name bearers character, reputation, even authority. How
do we walk in the name of God? We live as a reflection of His attributes; we exhibit love, joy, peace,
patience, long-suffering, etc., because these things define His character and reputation, His "shem." Now
another Hebrew word which carries a broad meaning is the word "olam."............
...........................................................Olam as a concept carries such great
weight in meaning; it becomes vital to the context of the scriptures we read that we develop an
understanding of this word! It is translated as forever, everlasting, eternal, perpetual, evermore,
universe, etc. The idea however is that olam transcends time and space; it is something which is beyond
our field of vision in time or space. Olam fits into the "beyond our ability to see what's ahead of us"
category, like the horizon which as we drive toward it, just remains the horizon never getting any closer. I
realize this is a deep concept, but there is one thing that might allow us to really get a fix on this word,
to grasp the implications behind this word, and that is God. We might know very little about God in the
grand scheme of things, but we can somewhat grasp the idea that He exists outside of time (He is
Eternal) and space (He is Omnipresent). His knowledge and understanding are not limited in any
conceivable way (He is Omniscient). God, in plain and simple terms, is olam.

Isaiah 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting (olam) God, the Lord, The
Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable.
http://discoverhebrewroots.com/articles/Olam.pdf

As the writer of the above article infers, olam refers to much more than the duration of God, but also the awesome mystery of God and the degree to which He is beyond the understanding of man.

[Seth]

It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."

[eaglesway]

Applying this to Vic's question, Vic- when speaking about God, olam, among other things refers to His endless life. When speaking of salvation and the life of the saints, it also refers to endless life, because that is the nature of the life we receive from God.

When speaking of the judgment to come, olam refers to an indeterminate time(many stripes, few stripes) because that is the nature of God's corrective punishment, until "every knee bows, whether on earth or in heaven or under the earth and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2:10,11)

and

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

the last enemy to be destroyed is death. That means the second death has an end. All death has an end. No multitudes languishing in tormenting flames forever(darn!:o). When all things are subdued before Jesus Christ there will be no more adversaries, no more death(penalty for sin) because God will be all in all.

Since there is a last adversary to be destroyed, it makes sense that the others(each in their own order) will be subjected, reconciled and restored according to the judgment of God, "Who's understanding is unsearchable" :o)

[eaglesway]

It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."

You need to read more about it Seth. You are just flat wrong here, in my opinion  :laugh:

[WhiteWings]

http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html

I've read this definition of Olam on several other (Orthodox Jewish) sites too.
All use their own wording but the meaning is always the same (and very Biblical)

a] The duration is vague, unknown, and similar words. *
b] Only God knows the duration.
c] Olam is without a single exception always limited.

*= It's not per definition vague because it's so far away, beyond the horizon etc. For the slave olam lasted the rest of his life (few decades). For Jonah olam lasted 3 days and 3 nights. 3 days is a very nearby horizon. So basically olam means: Only God knows the duration.

[Seth]

It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."

You need to read more about it Seth. You are just flat wrong here, in my opinion  :laugh:

When I take a look at Ronen's study I see

"olam simply means 'horizon'. When prefixed with a lamed, it is an indication of time 'to the horizon'. If they wanted to indicate time beyond that, they would say l'olam wa'ed meaning 'to horizon and beyond' or 'further.' Pretty simple, actually"

You need to add a word to olam to take it "beyond." Even the word "perpetual" doesn't communicate unending. When I drive to the store, the pistons in my car turn perpetually, until I stop the car. Continuous does not mean eternal of itself. You would need to add "perpetual without end" to properly communicate eternal.

So the most accurate translation would be "going forward" or "continually to the horizon." Horizons are visible as far as the eye can see. That point is the terminus, where details are hazy. Thus the Israelites could say "to the horizon and beyond."

[Seth]

Applying this to Vic's question, Vic- when speaking about God, olam, among other things refers to His endless life. When speaking of salvation and the life of the saints, it also refers to endless life, because that is the nature of the life we receive from God.

It doesn't necessarily mean endless life, as it may not be referring to the length of its duration but the application to the present times that the promise was delivered. The fact that it would could be called "olam" would be because the life of Christ is within believers is continually through time, to the horizon.

It would be immortality that would indicate this knowledge of God, inward dwelling Spirit, to be an unending gift taking it "beyond." That's how I would see it. To me, that understanding would reflect the most literal translation of "olam."

[gregoryfl]

I have worked with Jeff Benner over the years before he got too busy with work to continue the pace at which he had been researching and working on his projects. He was kind enough to allow me to contribute to his Ancient Hebrew Lexicon. I am very familiar with what he understands, and hold very similar views, since we both are coming from the same framework when it comes to how we approach our study of the pictograph ancient Hebrew.

Jeff, with his research, as well as my own personal research, has come to the conclusion that the idea of eternity, eternal, or everlasting, was not part of ancient Semitic thought, as far as choice of words. In other words, despite what more modern lexicons and concordances may say, the word olam never strictly refers to time that never ends, and especially not to timelessness.

Hebrew and Aramaic both help us see, by means of the prefix lamed, whether the word olam is referring to time, or referring to character.

Whenever the writer wanted to express olam as referring to time, they would prefix the word with either a lamed, meaning 'to horizon', expressing unspecific time in the future; or a mem, meaning 'from horizon', expressing unspecific time in the past. When they wanted to express olam as referring to an unspecific ending point, they would write 'ad olam', meaning 'until horizon.'

An example of this would be:
Gen 6:4 they are the masters, who are FROM THE HORIZON.
Gen 13:15 for all the land which you are seeing, to you I am giving it, and to your seed, UNTIL THE HORIZON.
Exo 21:6 he shall serve him TO HORIZON.

Whenever the writer wanted to express olam as referring to the characteristic of something difficult to perceive as to details, in Hebrew the word would be joined to another noun, and in Aramaic the word would be prefixed by a dalet. Such uses no longer refer to time, but to the characteristics of a horizon.

An example of this would be:
Jud 7 Sodom and Gomorrah...are placed beneath for demonstrations of fire OF HORIZON.

This fire was 'of olam', not telling us how long it lasted, but telling us it came from an imperceptible source...God himself.

'Eonian life'...or, as the Aramaic would say 'life of horizon', is not referring how long this life is, but refers to the source of this life. This is why it is said that this life is to know the Father and his Son, and that he who has the Son has this life. Not speaking of time, but of source.

When a writer wanted to communicate God as the imperceptible source of something, he would do so using olam, or, if using Greek, aionios or aionion. This is why those things which issue from him, whether it be punishment, or life, or shame, or peace, or anything else, all such are referred to as olam, which clues us in on Him as the source of those things.

Because God himself is imperceptible to our physicality as humans (we cannot see, smell, touch, etc him) he is referred to as God olam, meaning that he himself is characterized like a horizon. If the writer wanted to convey the concept of how long God lives, they would use the prefix lamed with olam to indicate this.

One example is found in God's own words, when he says of himself:
Deu 32:40 As I lift my hand to the heavens and declare, I live TO HORIZON.

This is indicating unperceived time.

When he refers to himself as, for example:
Isa 40:28 God OF HORIZON

Now he is indicating what characterizes him, his imperceptibility, not how long he exists.

These are the things I have come to understand from the research I have done.

Ronen

[gregoryfl]

One more point from my above post...

This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.

These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.

It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.

Ronen

[Tom]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[WhiteWings]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.

[WhiteWings]

One more point from my above post...

This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.

These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.

It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.

Ronen

What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?

That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality

[Tom]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.

I think endlessness is a false assumption.

[Tom]

One more point from my above post...

This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.

These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.

It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.

Ronen

What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?

That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality

See my Reply #86 on "Why are we so frowned upon?" I think Matthew 25:46 does indicate "the quality of life" following the judgment of the nations. 

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[rosered]

One of the best descriptions I have ever read was Solomon s   Ecc  3  about OLAM     in this case its world  / h5769  olam   in their hearts

  I tend to agree with Eaglesways     . you cannot know  /eternity
  very hard word to     describe!!!

Ecc 3:11   He hath made H6213 every thing beautiful H3303 in his time:


H6256 also he hath set H5414 the world H5769 in their heart, H3820



so that H1097 no man H120 can find out H4672 the work H4639 that God H430 maketh H6213 from the beginning H7218 to the end. H5490

[rosered]

One more point from my above post...

This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.

These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.

It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.

Ronen

What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?

That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality

I can sure see this as well and being descriptive     , this not easy to  explain    in words

[eaglesway]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.

Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.

[rosered]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.

Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.

:thumbsup: 

[eaglesway]

The point, with olam, that must be understood (in order to understand it) is that it's definition changes according to the subject it is joined to, but it always has the element of indefiniteness.

It doesnt "mean" eternity or endlessness per say. However it can infer endlessness when attached to the life of God or the life of the saints. Just as we kno there is a difference between the length of a slaves life.

"He shall be your slave olam"

and the duration of hills

"the utmost limits of the olam hills"

and perpetual generations

"I will make a covenant with them for perpetual generations"

And the duration of God

"Yahweh El Olam"

IMO, God is not limited to ages, the consummation, in which God will become all in all, will not be limited to an age.

The idea that no Greek or Hebrew ever thought of God as eternal, is in my opinion, "made to fit" theological spin.

[eaglesway]

http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html

I've read this definition of Olam on several other (Orthodox Jewish) sites too.
All use their own wording but the meaning is always the same (and very Biblical)

a] The duration is vague, unknown, and similar words. *
b] Only God knows the duration.
c] Olam is without a single exception always limited.

*= It's not per definition vague because it's so far away, beyond the horizon etc. For the slave olam lasted the rest of his life (few decades). For Jonah olam lasted 3 days and 3 nights. 3 days is a very nearby horizon. So basically olam means: Only God knows the duration.

I missed this post earlier WW,

"Only God knows the duration". Perfect. Exactly.

[WhiteWings]

The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.

"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)

"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

Is God limited to the eons?

I've never seen anyone on this forum claiming that.

Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture..

Personally I think you go WAAAYYY to far in forcing Scripture to mean what you think it should mean because you still don't see what olam life is.

It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.

That we certainly doesn't include me because Scripture clearly links olam to the duration of 'hell' many times, but not a single verse links olam to God's lifespan (which is eternal). So you yield to accepting olam means endless because you incorrectly assume it has any relation to the lifespan of God and the length of everlasting life for all humanity.

Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.

Rain is wet. That's also fact but unrelated to the olam discussion.

:2c: