I'm not sure if this is the best board to post my question in, but I had to take a guess! My question is a fairly simple one. I basically just want to ask, if "eternal" as in "eternal salvation" is being translated from the same word as "eternal" as in "eternal punishment", or if there are other verses that confirm eternal salvation, that does not use such a word. I found on one link an argument that claims universalists take the same word to mean either eternal or finite, depending on how it suits their needs. Here is the link:
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
A universalist responds to the argument in the link but I'm afraid I don't understand his answer.
Is the biblical support for eternal life in heaven strong, if we conclude that one word ("aionion") doesn't necessarily mean eternal?
My apologies if not asking this as clearly as I would like. Please bear with me! Thanks in advance for your help in clarifying this.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 04:07:55 AM
I'm not sure if this is the best board to post my question in, but I had to take a guess! My question is a fairly simple one. I basically just want to ask, if "eternal" as in "eternal salvation" is being translated from the same word as "eternal" as in "eternal punishment", or if there are other verses that confirm eternal salvation, that does not use such a word. I found on one link an argument that claims universalists take the same word to mean either eternal or finite, depending on how it suits their needs. Here is the link:
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
A universalist responds to the argument in the link but I'm afraid I don't understand his answer.
Is the biblical support for eternal life in heaven strong, if we conclude that one word ("aionion") doesn't necessarily mean eternal?
My apologies if not asking this as clearly as I would like. Please bear with me! Thanks in advance for your help in clarifying this.
Hi Vic2.0,
There are two concepts that I see in the scripture: the life of the age, and immortality. The life of the age (aionios zoe) is the life of Jesus Christ within believers in this age and the ages to come. Immortality is something that will be added to us when we are resurrected with new bodies, for as Paul said "this mortal shall put on immortality." Aionios judgment is contrasted against aionios zoe, not immortality. Thus, it is the judgement of the age, not an immortal judgment.
More here: http://mercifultruth.com/eternity.html
Good question Vic 2.0.
If there ever was a scripture that mainstream Christianity uses for their eternal hell doctrine it is Mat. 25:46.
To really dig into the meaning of this, one has to look at the original Greek wording of what has been translated as eternal and forever.. It is not hard to do and can be fun. This link may be a good place to begin:
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html
:idea2:
Hello Vic,
In addition to the above, there is actually no Greek word that corresponds precisely to the modern English conception of 'eternity'. Just like 'hell', the English translation choice has taken on a life of its own.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 04:07:55 AM
I'm not sure if this is the best board to post my question in, but I had to take a guess! My question is a fairly simple one. I basically just want to ask, if "eternal" as in "eternal salvation" is being translated from the same word as "eternal" as in "eternal punishment", or if there are other verses that confirm eternal salvation, that does not use such a word. I found on one link an argument that claims universalists take the same word to mean either eternal or finite, depending on how it suits their needs. Here is the link:
http://www.scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html
A universalist responds to the argument in the link but I'm afraid I don't understand his answer.
Is the biblical support for eternal life in heaven strong, if we conclude that one word ("aionion") doesn't necessarily mean eternal?
My apologies if not asking this as clearly as I would like. Please bear with me! Thanks in advance for your help in clarifying this.
The word "eternal" is actually not found in scripture. It is an inaccurate translation of the Greek "aionion," which is the adjective for the Greek "aion," literally "eon," a period of time not infinite time, which is what the word "eternal" describes. We are promised "eonian life," not "eternal life," and "immortality," but there is no threat of "eternal punishment" even though "everlasting punishment" is used as an inaccurate translation for "kolasin aionion," literally "chastening eonian," in the King James Version. Here is a link with a chart of the "eons" and some information about "chastening eonian." http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html Here's another link about the eons. http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/index.html Here's a link with a more accurate translation of scripture where you won't find the word "eternal" or the word "hell." http://concordant.org/online/index.html In fact here's a link to their homepage http://concordant.org/ It's a good site with information about scripture in general.
Dear Vic 2.0
Boy is this ever the question of the hour!! , and a great stumbling block for all , no matter what you believe in ET,ED , Any religion or branch off the old tree
I was not so easily persuaded to become a universalist , if that is what you want to call us whom Believe GOD IS THE POWER and though His one of the kind son would bring life back from the dead
I think we fail to see what exactly is going on , its confusing at first and ALL I could mutter in all honesty , At first for many years was
'''I do not know how God will do His perfect work''' , and God is in complete control , and IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD , I just know He will do it !! GOD IS LOVE AND LIGHT AND FIRE !
For me , here is the secret it has always been by faith , not what you see , but what you do not see , we do not realize it at all,,,, we do not know anything at first about God or His plan or His Son , this one of a kind , back from the beginning
fruit seed itself in Gen 1 on the 3rd DAY THE SEED IS CHRIST /IT IS THE TREE OF LIFE ONE OF A KIND SEED ,
and until you can "SEE" Jesus Christ you can never Jesus till you can see Him as the tree of Life and the good Shepherd , the Door to the Sheepfold and Lamb of God basically as the whole thing and everything !! I do mean everything and all things
its the inheritance of the sons of God to come though this one seed and it is Christ
we are dead , death reigns till the Law of Moses and it also puts us to death again , so we are twice dead
dead in sin and trespass , you body is dead because of sin that is to every one born of woman out of the womb
the Law and the letter of it also puts you to death no man can keep all the law , no man has ever till Jesus Christ in the fullness of time
there is no life till Christ comes to give it to you
until the seed in you is quickened by the Spirit , same overshadowing of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Thing [saint /set apart for GOD /ONLY HOLY ONE CONCEIVED and BORN of the incorruptible WORD OF GOD SEED /SPIRIT OF TRUTH ] its by faith IN CHRIST THIS WORK OF GOD THOUGH JESUS CHRIST and within you that can keep and know and love Gods LAW OF LOVE
the promises of God come though faith only in Jesus Christ the Sons of God though the One of a Kind seed of the tree of Life HIM , but is everything and all things the WHOLE WORD
Jesus explains this in His visits to Abraham , Abraham saw Jesus and was glad for this day to come to Him , he represents the father of faith in Jesus Christ , yes way back than even
I am using as simple of terms and words as I know possible without all the scriptures because they will lengthen it to the point no one wants to read this
so the real question is will those given anion life and others anion judgment last forever and ever and ever and ever on and on and on and on etc
BIG FAT NO !!! The KEY is to understanding it , this process of God giving life though Jesus Christ His only and one of a kind Son that is going to be the only power and source of all life period
there is no life outside of Christ , When God gave us His Son it was going to be endless no evil can exist in the LIGHT AND LOVE AND FIRE
even death and hell[graves ] fire is the purifier that purges evil no darkness at all and it cannot exist when GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL
Lots of scriptures to explain this process , you can see them plain when given eyes to see them ears to hear the spirit and heart to understand them [healing ]
ALL i can say is hang in there and WAIT on the Lord
Jesus is the Lord /master of the dead and living He is the only one in power to Give life to those He will as the Father is searching with thsoe 7 EYES on ONE STONE in the earth to find faith and worship Him in Spirit and Truth only
Thanks to all who replied. It does give me a lot to read, and I'm grateful because I can learn more that way. I would still like to know exactly which verses promise eternal life/heaven, without their original text using the words mistranslated "eternal" in the verses that allegedly confirm "Hell". I would just really like to deal with this claim, that if "Hell" isn't biblical but a mistranslation, then the same goes for heaven.
Yes Heaven is not a place , but a state of being in the Love of God with Jesus judging what is right and counting your faith as righteous in HIS peace and joy and the Holy Spirit :thumbsup:
Romans 14
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For The Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but the righteousness and the peace and the joy in The Spirit of Holiness.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 04:34:08 PM
Thanks to all who replied. It does give me a lot to read, and I'm grateful because I can learn more that way. I would still like to know exactly which verses promise eternal life/heaven, without their original text using the words mistranslated "eternal" in the verses that allegedly confirm "Hell". I would just really like to deal with this claim, that if "Hell" isn't biblical but a mistranslation, then the same goes for heaven.
It's two parts Vic.
Part a is that no text speaks of eternal doom. That can best, but not only, be seen in the original language.
The other part are the verses that state salvation
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/15_bombs.htm
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/30x%20all.htm
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/appendix%20three%20-%20reconciliation%20scriptures.htm
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/77_ur_verses.htm
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/150%20reasons.htm
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/tract/bible%20threatenings%20explained.htm
Etc, etc
The most beautiful verses are in my signature :banana:
Wow, thanks! Those lists of verses in particular will be most helpful :)
I think heaven and hell are both real, but hell is not what most folks think it is due to the misrepresentation of it by the church and forgery in the translation of scripture.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 04:34:08 PM
Thanks to all who replied. It does give me a lot to read, and I'm grateful because I can learn more that way. I would still like to know exactly which verses promise eternal life/heaven, without their original text using the words mistranslated "eternal" in the verses that allegedly confirm "Hell". I would just really like to deal with this claim, that if "Hell" isn't biblical but a mistranslation, then the same goes for heaven.
"Hell" is only a mistranslation twelve times when used instead of "Gehenna" in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. The word "hell" is an Old English Word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," in the King James Version. The problem is the modern common misconception of "hell" thanks to the intentional confusion of "hell" with "Gehenna."
http://youtu.be/PukKEJ_wy-o
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 04:34:08 PM
Thanks to all who replied. It does give me a lot to read, and I'm grateful because I can learn more that way. I would still like to know exactly which verses promise eternal life/heaven, without their original text using the words mistranslated "eternal" in the verses that allegedly confirm "Hell". I would just really like to deal with this claim, that if "Hell" isn't biblical but a mistranslation, then the same goes for heaven.
What you would call "eternal life" is what the Bible calls "immortality." So, to answer your question, here is a verse:
1 Cor 15
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.Immortals cannot die, so in that sense, it is "eternal life." However, this is a different concept from "aionios zoe," the life of the age.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and
we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ.
This is the true God, and aionios-life.1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer
has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him,
how can the love of God be IN him?Aionios Zoe is actually God himself. Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life." The life of the age therefore is Christ living within us today.
Titus. 1:2
In hope of aionios-life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (pro chronos aionios - before the time of this age).
I agree that most folks are probably thinking about "immortality" when they say "eternal life." I think only God has "eternal life" though because I understand that to mean life existing during infinite time with no beginning or end, actually transcending time, space, and matter. I think scripture says all will be reconciled and mankind will eventually have "immortality" when death is abolished through Christ, but that will happen to believers first, when Christ meets us in the air, and then unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.
"we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers." (1 Timothy 4:10)
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens." (Colossians 1:20)
"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
:iagree:
I too believe the promise of immortality will be delivered at the consummation.
"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal put on immortality. Now, whenever this corruptible should be putting on incorruption and this mortal should be putting on immortality, then shall come to pass the word which is written, Swallowed up was Death by Victory. Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?" (1 Corinthians 15:53-55)
Unfortunately this is another way the church has distorted the truth of scripture by adopting Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul, which originally came from the serpent's lie, to perpetuate the lie of dead souls being alive to be tortured in fire forever.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)
"The soul that is sinning-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 05:41:02 PM
Wow, thanks! Those lists of verses in particular will be most helpful :)
There are more similar links on the same site. The lists contain quite a few doubles, but all differ a bit.
When done reading just read some of the articles or go to the list with websites that also promote the victorious Gospel.
/EDIT
I think you will quickly learn you have no other choice than reading the other articles.
You should test every new teaching, including this one. When you do, you will read that each and every verse is taken totally out of context. The articles will refute that sorta slander.
You are here. You are open to it. That's a great start :thumbsup:
Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2014, 07:22:30 PM
Unfortunately this is another way the church has distorted the truth of scripture by adopting Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul, which originally came from the serpent's lie, to perpetuate the lie of dead souls being alive to be tortured in fire forever.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)
"The soul that is sinning-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
So... There's not much consensus on eternal life/immortality, either? Wow, I did not know that.
May I just admit I'm a little confused by the language of it all? I kind of figured "streets of gold" and such may not be biblical, but surely most would say we go on to live forever, either with God in heaven or in hell (if you believe in hell). Despite how it's worded (I take it "salvation" may need necessarily mean "heaven"), do we or do we not live forever? In a realm where there is no pain or sorrow? Or is this not biblically sound either?
There's definitely consensus around here that immortality will be granted, and that God will be all in all. The scriptures are clear about it.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 10, 2014, 11:45:22 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 10, 2014, 07:22:30 PM
Unfortunately this is another way the church has distorted the truth of scripture by adopting Plato's philosophy of immortality of the soul, which originally came from the serpent's lie, to perpetuate the lie of dead souls being alive to be tortured in fire forever.
"And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying"" (Genesis 3:4)
"The soul that is sinning-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin-it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
"I am charging you in the sight of God, Who is vivifying all, and of Jesus Christ, Who testifies in the ideal avowal before Pontius Pilate, that you keep this precept unspotted, irreprehensible, unto the advent of our Lord, Christ Jesus, which, to its own eras, the happy and only Potentate will be showing: He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian!" (1 Timothy 6:13-16)
So... There's not much consensus on eternal life/immortality, either? Wow, I did not know that.
May I just admit I'm a little confused by the language of it all? I kind of figured "streets of gold" and such may not be biblical, but surely most would say we go on to live forever, either with God in heaven or in hell (if you believe in hell). Despite how it's worded (I take it "salvation" may need necessarily mean "heaven"), do we or do we not live forever? In a realm where there is no pain or sorrow? Or is this not biblically sound either?
Yes, all mankind will be vivified, meaning immortalized, but in different classes. Christ is the first one and only one so far; next believers when we meet him in the air; then unbelievers at the consummation of the eons when God will be "all in all." But "hell" will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14 KJV). "Hell" is just the "unseen" state of dead souls, and, after death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26), all mankind will be immortal. That is the "immortality" that we were saying is what most folks call "eternal life," even though that's not really what it is.
I appreciate these replies! Very helpful. Now, if someone could only tell me (in laymen's terms) what the difference between eternal life and immortality is, I think I'll be set.
Oh, and are you, Tom, saying by "different classes" that some will have it "better" than others, or are you only referring to the time at which they get to see "heaven"?
Hi Vic ,
Some believe by faith being it is now
we ask ,are you saved ? if you are saved , salvation is nearer than when you first believed / obeyed
I believe these verses are true and now not some other time nor place its invisible , you cannot see it being flesh and blood , [no flesh and blood inherits the kingdom]
but being Spiritual you can know it , I alone am convinced is individually or in clusters , not some big one time event like so many religious believers do
the 7 eyes searching for those whom will worship the Father in Spirit and truth today , now , and those whom will yet to come
Jesus has come to you with the Holy Spirit , giving you power ACTS 1 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
9And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight
this is how you are seated with Christ in heavenly places [ Eph 2 4-7]
Christ's Death Takes Away Sins
23 So the ·copies [symbols; models; prototypes] of the real things in heaven had to be ·made clean [purified; cleansed] by animal sacrifices. But the real things in heaven need much better sacrifices. 24 [L For] Christ did not go into ·the Most Holy Place [a sanctuary; L holy things] made by ·humans [L hands], which is only a ·copy [model; or prefiguration] of the real one.
He went into heaven itself and ·is there [appears] now ·before [in the presence of] God ·to help us [for us; on our behalf].
25 The high priest enters the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] once every year with blood that is not his own.
But Christ did not offer himself many times. 26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world].
But Christ ·came [appeared] ·only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10] at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all [nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself.
27 Just as ·everyone [L people] ·must [is/are destined/appointed to] die once and ·then be judged [T after this the judgment],
28 so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to ·take away [bear] the sins of many people [Is. 53:12]. And he will ·come [appear] a second time, not to
offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Jesus will come into your flesh and blood body and by the Spirit of Life/ Truth give you life now ,
your peace and Joy and life will be full By Him though Him and for Him
some will never die John 11
...25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" 27She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
the rest of the dead did not live again till the 1000 years are finished
for me and this is just me here , very little believe this but I do believe it , Peter says a 1000 years is a DAY and a DAY is 1000 years to God
Psalms 903You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
4For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or as a watch in the night.
5You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew....
2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
for me the DAY OF THE LORD is the 1000 year reign
we are all waiting for the Day of the Lord
terrible for the man of sin , but excellent for the new creature in Christ / sons of God
we all bear the image of the old corruptible man
and also shall bear the image of the incorruptible Son of God
this one of a kind Son is the new heavens and earth we hope in bringing in all the new sons of God / new creatures in Christ , in His own glory and splendor
I know there are some who do not believe that our time is now
but there are many scriptures that prove that the time is now
Romans 13
11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep;
for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed.
12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. JESUS IS NEAR
Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light....
2 Corinth 6 1And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain--
2for He says, "AT THE ACCEPTABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU, AND ON THE DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU."
Behold, now is "THE ACCEPTABLE TIME," behold, now is "THE DAY OF SALVATION "--
3 giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited,...
John 4 22"You worship what you do not know;
we worship what we know,
for salvation is from the Jews.
23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
: Isaiah 1:18, "Come NOW, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Hebrews 4:7, "TODAY if ye will hear His voice, harden not your hearts." Proverbs 27:1, "Boast not yourself of TOMORROW ; for you do not know not what a day may bring forth."
I do not know if this will help , but I sure can hope it will
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 11, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
I appreciate these replies! Very helpful. Now, if someone could only tell me (in laymen's terms) what the difference between eternal life and immortality is, I think I'll be set.
Hi Vic,
Immortality = living forever with new bodies.
Aionios life (life of the age) = the Holy Spirit living in believers, right now, this very moment. That life was promised "before the time of this age."
Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2014, 02:15:58 AM
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 11, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
I appreciate these replies! Very helpful. Now, if someone could only tell me (in laymen's terms) what the difference between eternal life and immortality is, I think I'll be set.
Hi Vic,
Immortality = living forever with new bodies.
Aionios life (life of the age) = the Holy Spirit living in believers, right now, this very moment. That life was promised "before the time of this age."
Hi Seth do you think the new creature in Christ is the new bodies ?
I always though it was ? 2Corinth 5
6Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;
even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17 Therefore if anyone
is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation
So as not to get off track from Vic's question, I would say that either way, immortality is definitely a promise in the Gospel, so Matt Slick's reasoning regarding the word "aionios" is not a valid argument. Aionios judgement is not set in contrast to immortality but to not receiving the spirit in this age or the next unto salvation from sin.
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 11, 2014, 02:11:29 AM
I appreciate these replies! Very helpful. Now, if someone could only tell me (in laymen's terms) what the difference between eternal life and immortality is, I think I'll be set.
Oh, and are you, Tom, saying by "different classes" that some will have it "better" than others, or are you only referring to the time at which they get to see "heaven"?
Christ has already been vivified, given immortality, or life beyond death in a spiritual body. Next we believers will receive the same when Christ meets us in the air. Then, at the consummation of the eons, those who were condemned to the second death will be vivified when death is abolished (1 Corinthians 15:26).
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
I believe God is operating all according to his will. God chose some before the disruption of the world to be saved in grace through faith, not of works, from the coming indignation to have eonian life in Christ. Those not chosen do not have faith, or believe, but will eventually come to know Christ by sight when they are judged before the great white throne and then condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire." But the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5). So they will not be conscious to be tortured in fire. Scripture only says the Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for the eons of the eons. They must be supernatural creatures not subject to death because "the lake of fire" is "the second death." So I think God will be merciful to unbelievers by simply causing them to be unaware of the last eon while we are alive, and it is not necessarily a violent death they will suffer. I think they may even become unconscious from the sulfur dioxide before they are cast into the lake of fire. Some may be curious why unbelievers should suffer this fate if it was God who chose some to believe and not others. I trust God to do what is righteous according to his will, and I think those who will not be alive for the last eon will be very blessed to see that they are alive and know that they will never die again at the consummation of the eons. That is the difference between the truth of scripture and church doctrine. The ultimate goal is that God will be "all in all." So, regardless of whether some are chosen for eonian life or not, God is the savior of all mankind, and all on earth and in the heavens will be reconciled to God through Christ's blood on the cross. So it seems our parts have been chosen for us to play in the grand drama of the universe during the eons, but, because God is love, I think all will be blessed beyond even what we can imagine at the consummation of the eons when we will all be filled with God's love to the max. It's really a blessing to have this expectation rather than the hopeless horror of what the church has to offer. It's hard to try to convince church folks of this though. I think we just have to try to share the truth in love with them, and let God convince those he chooses to believe it. I think they may still be our brothers and sisters in Christ even though they don't fully understand the evangel. I believe creation and reconciliation have the same scope, but it seems that's not what most believers think.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
PS: So called "eternal life" is just a mistranslation, which should be "eonian life" because the Greek "aionion" is the adjective of the Greek "aion," literally "eon," which is a period of time not infinite time, which "eternal" describes. Folks say "eternal life" because they're unaware of the fact that it is an inaccurate translation, and they usually mean what scripture calls "immortality," which is life beyond death that all mankind will eventually have at the consummation of the eons. Believers will actually receive it before that though when Christ meets us in the air.
Hi Vic,
I am going to give you a different view. Some here may disagree with me.
To start, "aionios"(greek) is a translation of the word "olam"(Hebrew). There are literally hundreds of occurences of the word olam in the OT- as well as any hebrew/Aramaic NT.
Olam is a word that means, "in the far distance" or "beyond the horizon".
Hebrews used the word to describe the "world to come". They used it to define the life of God. It is a word with a somewhat indeterminate meaning, finding its absolute definition in the context in which it is used and from the subject unto which it is connected, SO.......
Olam can mean eternal/forever/everlasting, IMO.
It can also mean the "far distant past".
It can also mean "the far distant future".
it can also mean "other world", as in the world we cannot see because we are still in the flesh- the world of the spirit in which God and the angels abide, and within which we will eventually abide.
The important thing is what it is describing in the context.
For example.....
Gen 21:33 Abraham planted a tamarisk tree at Beersheba, and there he called on the name of the Lord, the Everlasting God.(Yahweh El Olam). Here olam is the indeterminat AND endless time of God's duration, defined by HIM.
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old(me olam- were of old), men of renown. Here olam means the far distant past, antiquity- again always incorporating the indeterminate aspect of beyond the horizon.
Gen 49:26
26 "The blessings of your father
Have surpassed the blessings of my ancestors
Up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills (gibot olam);
May they be on the head of Joseph,
And on the crown of the head of the one distinguished among his brothers.
Here olam has an "utmost bound" meaning the "furthest limit". It is beyond the horizon(of man's perception) but it is definitely NOT ETERNAL, it has a limit, that limit in this case being the duration of said hills.
Deut 15:16 And it shall be, if he say unto thee, I will not go away from thee; because he loveth thee and thine house, because he is well with thee;
17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust it through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever.(olam) Here the period described by olam is the rest of the servants life- definitely not eternal.
Exodus 3:15
God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever(olam), and this is My memorial-name to all generations.
Here God takes the name OLAM. It is translated forever, but it means so much more. Truly God is beyond our horizon. He lives forever, He is eternal, but more than that(because that is simple- all kno that) he is BEYOND OUR HORIZON as it is written in these most powerful UR verses
Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all 33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? 35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? 36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
In OT usage, Olam most frequently means "enduring open ended", which can be into the past or into the future, like "perpetual generations" or "everlasting covenant" or "age during hills", and out of 490 some occurrences it is hard to limit it to "an age with a beginning and an end" as many UR people do in translating olam to aionios and defining it as a period of set duration. I consider that a weak argument myself.
So, in my opinion, you rarely win someone to the truth by definitions of Greek and Hebrew words. It is better to declare the salvation of all and speak the scriptures that declare it plainly(eph 1:9-11, Col 1:16-21, 1 cor 15, rom 11:23-36, 1 john 2:1-2, 1 tim 2:4) because if they wont hear those verses, they wont hear anything anyway. The definitions of greek and hebrew words like olam, aionios, sheol, gehenna, etc. are powerful witnesses for sure- but in my opinion more in the way of confirmation for those who are already hearing the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.
Psalm 24:7
Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient(olam) doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
8 Who is the King of glory?
The Lord strong and mighty,
The Lord mighty in battle.
9 Lift up your heads, O gates,
And lift them up, O ancient(olam) doors,
That the King of glory may come in!
This from another thread:
Quote from: gregoryfl on October 12, 2014, 10:28:56 AM
olam simply means 'horizon'. When prefixed with a lamed, it is an indication of time 'to the horizon'. If they wanted to indicate time beyond that, they would say l'olam wa'ed meaning 'to horizon and beyond' or 'further.' Pretty simple, actually :)
In my opinion, and from all the scholarship I have seen on "olam" it means "horizon" or "to the horizon." The thing about the horizon, is that it is visible. We can see it. But we cannot necessarily see the details of it. The details are fuzzy but the horizon itself not unseen, which is why it is treated as an end point, and the addition of other Hebrew words communicates "beyond." So, to me, that gives and indication that olam is similar to aion, which is the concept of an age, where the details are not seen, but the endpoint is at least visible.
I personally see a repeated concept in the Bible where olam God is conjoined with "generations" indicating to me that the idea of olam God is that he is the God present from generation to generation. Just my own thoughts and belief on it.
No offence, but whatever scholarship you've seen in this case is deficient. Olam is connected with generations in a certain percentage of its usage- but always as "perpetual" generations. Olam is used as perpetual (enduring open ended)- generations is simply the subject, same as in "olam hills". Olam is clearly, in every analysis and definition I have read, an indicator of long, indefinite duration. Reading over 490 usages and seeing the great variety of applications for the word, it is always unseen, open ended, beyond what is seen into the furure or past or eternity.
Brown-Driver-Briggs
עוֺלָם439 noun masculine long duration, antiquity, futurity; —
2. a. indefinite futurity, with preposition for ever, always (sometimes = during the lifetime); עֶבֶד עולם slave for ever Deuteronomy 15:17; 1 Samuel 27:12; Job 40:28; ׳עָבַד לע serve for ever Exodus 21:6 (E), Leviticus 25:46; ׳עד ע 1 Samuel 1:22; ׳גְּאֻלַּת ע Leviticus 25:32 redemption at any time; ׳הֲרַ
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Definition
long duration, antiquity, futurity
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,
Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always -- alway(-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, (n-))ever(-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).
In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means "the direction of the rising sun". We use north as our major orientation such as in maps which are always oriented to the north. While we use the north as our major direction the Hebrews used the east and all directions are oriented to this direction. For example one of the words for south is teyman from the root yaman meaning "to the right". The word qedem is also the word for the past. In the ancient Hebrew mind the past is in front of you while the future is behind you, the opposite way we think of the past and future. The Hebrew word olam means in the far distance. When looking off in the far distance it is difficult to make out any details and what is beyond that horizon cannot be seen. This concept is the olam. http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_eternity.html)
Some words in Hebrew carry a much broader meaning than an equivalent English word. The word shem
for example, is the word we translate as name. But shem is not necessarily speaking about what we call
somebody as much as it is speaking about the name bearers character, reputation, even authority. How
do we walk in the name of God? We live as a reflection of His attributes; we exhibit love, joy, peace,
patience, long-suffering, etc., because these things define His character and reputation, His "shem." Now
another Hebrew word which carries a broad meaning is the word "olam."............
...........................................................Olam as a concept carries such great
weight in meaning; it becomes vital to the context of the scriptures we read that we develop an
understanding of this word! It is translated as forever, everlasting, eternal, perpetual, evermore,
universe, etc. The idea however is that olam transcends time and space; it is something which is beyond
our field of vision in time or space. Olam fits into the "beyond our ability to see what's ahead of us"
category, like the horizon which as we drive toward it, just remains the horizon never getting any closer. I
realize this is a deep concept, but there is one thing that might allow us to really get a fix on this word,
to grasp the implications behind this word, and that is God. We might know very little about God in the
grand scheme of things, but we can somewhat grasp the idea that He exists outside of time (He is
Eternal) and space (He is Omnipresent). His knowledge and understanding are not limited in any
conceivable way (He is Omniscient). God, in plain and simple terms, is olam.
Isaiah 40:28 Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting (olam) God, the Lord, The
Creator of the ends of the earth, neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable.
http://discoverhebrewroots.com/articles/Olam.pdf (http://discoverhebrewroots.com/articles/Olam.pdf)
As the writer of the above article infers, olam refers to much more than the duration of God, but also the awesome mystery of God and the degree to which He is beyond the understanding of man.
It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."
Applying this to Vic's question, Vic- when speaking about God, olam, among other things refers to His endless life. When speaking of salvation and the life of the saints, it also refers to endless life, because that is the nature of the life we receive from God.
When speaking of the judgment to come, olam refers to an indeterminate time(many stripes, few stripes) because that is the nature of God's corrective punishment, until "every knee bows, whether on earth or in heaven or under the earth and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father"(Phil 2:10,11)
and
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
the last enemy to be destroyed is death. That means the second death has an end. All death has an end. No multitudes languishing in tormenting flames forever(darn!:o). When all things are subdued before Jesus Christ there will be no more adversaries, no more death(penalty for sin) because God will be all in all.
Since there is a last adversary to be destroyed, it makes sense that the others(each in their own order) will be subjected, reconciled and restored according to the judgment of God, "Who's understanding is unsearchable" :o)
Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2014, 08:02:17 AM
It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."
You need to read more about it Seth. You are just flat wrong here,
in my opinion :laugh:
http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html
I've read this definition of Olam on several other (Orthodox Jewish) sites too.
All use their own wording but the meaning is always the same (and very Biblical)
a] The duration is vague, unknown, and similar words. *
b] Only God knows the duration.
c] Olam is without a single exception always limited.
*= It's not per definition vague because it's so far away, beyond the horizon etc. For the slave olam lasted the rest of his life (few decades). For Jonah olam lasted 3 days and 3 nights. 3 days is a very nearby horizon. So basically olam means: Only God knows the duration.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 08:12:14 AM
Quote from: Seth on November 11, 2014, 08:02:17 AM
It doesn't mean eternal. That is a innacurate translation in my opinion. Olam means in the far distance but to the horizon, not "beyond the horizon."
You need to read more about it Seth. You are just flat wrong here, in my opinion :laugh:
When I take a look at Ronen's study I see
"olam simply means 'horizon'. When prefixed with a lamed, it is an indication of time 'to the horizon'. If they wanted to indicate time beyond that, they would say l'olam
wa'ed meaning 'to horizon and beyond' or 'further.' Pretty simple, actually"
You need to add a word to olam to take it "beyond." Even the word "perpetual" doesn't communicate unending. When I drive to the store, the pistons in my car turn perpetually, until I stop the car. Continuous does not mean eternal of itself. You would need to add "perpetual without end" to properly communicate eternal.
So the most accurate translation would be "going forward" or "continually to the horizon." Horizons are visible
as far as the eye can see. That point is the terminus, where details are hazy. Thus the Israelites could say "to the horizon and beyond."
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 08:10:39 AM
Applying this to Vic's question, Vic- when speaking about God, olam, among other things refers to His endless life. When speaking of salvation and the life of the saints, it also refers to endless life, because that is the nature of the life we receive from God.
It doesn't necessarily mean endless life, as it may not be referring to the length of its duration but the application to the present times that the promise was delivered. The fact that it would could be called "olam" would be because the life of Christ is within believers is continually through time, to the horizon.
It would be immortality that would indicate this knowledge of God, inward dwelling Spirit, to be an unending gift taking it "beyond." That's how I would see it. To me, that understanding would reflect the most literal translation of "olam."
I have worked with Jeff Benner over the years before he got too busy with work to continue the pace at which he had been researching and working on his projects. He was kind enough to allow me to contribute to his Ancient Hebrew Lexicon. I am very familiar with what he understands, and hold very similar views, since we both are coming from the same framework when it comes to how we approach our study of the pictograph ancient Hebrew.
Jeff, with his research, as well as my own personal research, has come to the conclusion that the idea of eternity, eternal, or everlasting, was not part of ancient Semitic thought, as far as choice of words. In other words, despite what more modern lexicons and concordances may say, the word olam never strictly refers to time that never ends, and especially not to timelessness.
Hebrew and Aramaic both help us see, by means of the prefix lamed, whether the word olam is referring to time, or referring to character.
Whenever the writer wanted to express olam as referring to time, they would prefix the word with either a lamed, meaning 'to horizon', expressing unspecific time in the future; or a mem, meaning 'from horizon', expressing unspecific time in the past. When they wanted to express olam as referring to an unspecific ending point, they would write 'ad olam', meaning 'until horizon.'
An example of this would be:
Gen 6:4 they are the masters, who are FROM THE HORIZON.
Gen 13:15 for all the land which you are seeing, to you I am giving it, and to your seed, UNTIL THE HORIZON.
Exo 21:6 he shall serve him TO HORIZON.
Whenever the writer wanted to express olam as referring to the characteristic of something difficult to perceive as to details, in Hebrew the word would be joined to another noun, and in Aramaic the word would be prefixed by a dalet. Such uses no longer refer to time, but to the characteristics of a horizon.
An example of this would be:
Jud 7 Sodom and Gomorrah...are placed beneath for demonstrations of fire OF HORIZON.
This fire was 'of olam', not telling us how long it lasted, but telling us it came from an imperceptible source...God himself.
'Eonian life'...or, as the Aramaic would say 'life of horizon', is not referring how long this life is, but refers to the source of this life. This is why it is said that this life is to know the Father and his Son, and that he who has the Son has this life. Not speaking of time, but of source.
When a writer wanted to communicate God as the imperceptible source of something, he would do so using olam, or, if using Greek, aionios or aionion. This is why those things which issue from him, whether it be punishment, or life, or shame, or peace, or anything else, all such are referred to as olam, which clues us in on Him as the source of those things.
Because God himself is imperceptible to our physicality as humans (we cannot see, smell, touch, etc him) he is referred to as God olam, meaning that he himself is characterized like a horizon. If the writer wanted to convey the concept of how long God lives, they would use the prefix lamed with olam to indicate this.
One example is found in God's own words, when he says of himself:
Deu 32:40 As I lift my hand to the heavens and declare, I live TO HORIZON.
This is indicating unperceived time.
When he refers to himself as, for example:
Isa 40:28 God OF HORIZON
Now he is indicating what characterizes him, his imperceptibility, not how long he exists.
These are the things I have come to understand from the research I have done.
Ronen
One more point from my above post...
This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.
These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.
It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.
Ronen
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 11, 2014, 02:15:25 PM
One more point from my above post...
This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.
These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.
It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.
Ronen
What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?
That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.
I think endlessness is a false assumption.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 03:26:36 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 11, 2014, 02:15:25 PM
One more point from my above post...
This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.
These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.
It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.
Ronen
What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?
That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality
See my Reply #86 on "Why are we so frowned upon?" I think Matthew 25:46 does indicate "the quality of life" following the judgment of the nations.
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
One of the best descriptions I have ever read was Solomon s Ecc 3 about OLAM in this case its world / h5769 olam in their hearts
I tend to agree with Eaglesways . you cannot know /eternity
very hard word to describe!!!
Ecc 3:11 He hath made H6213 every thing beautiful H3303 in his time:
H6256 also he hath set H5414 the world H5769 in their heart, H3820
so that H1097 no man H120 can find out H4672 the work H4639 that God H430 maketh H6213 from the beginning H7218 to the end. H5490
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 03:26:36 PM
Quote from: gregoryfl on November 11, 2014, 02:15:25 PM
One more point from my above post...
This is why, to me, it is a mute point for anyone to argue over Matthew 25:46, as to how long olam punishment lasts vs. how long olam life lasts. At least in the Aramaic text I use, if length of time were the comparison, Yeshua would have said punishment l'olam, and life l'olam...meaning punishment TO HORIZON and life TO HORIZON.
These are not comparisons of time, but of source. Punishment from an olam source, and life from an olam source...namely, both coming from God himself.
It took me a good while for my mind to truly grasp this as natural and instinctive, but once it happened, it became for me, so very clear and simple to understand. I can take my son out, and have done so, and in looking at the horizon, teach him these very concepts in a way he can understand. That is the beauty of the Creators language.
Ronen
What's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?
That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality
I can sure see this as well and being descriptive , this not easy to explain in words
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.
Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 05:20:02 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.
Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.
:thumbsup:
The point, with olam, that must be understood (in order to understand it) is that it's definition changes according to the subject it is joined to, but it always has the element of indefiniteness.
It doesnt "mean" eternity or endlessness per say. However it can infer endlessness when attached to the life of God or the life of the saints. Just as we kno there is a difference between the length of a slaves life.
"He shall be your slave olam"
and the duration of hills
"the utmost limits of the olam hills"
and perpetual generations
"I will make a covenant with them for perpetual generations"
And the duration of God
"Yahweh El Olam"
IMO, God is not limited to ages, the consummation, in which God will become all in all, will not be limited to an age.
The idea that no Greek or Hebrew ever thought of God as eternal, is in my opinion, "made to fit" theological spin.
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 08:37:47 AM
http://jewishroots.net/library/anti_missionary_objections/how_long_is_forever.html
I've read this definition of Olam on several other (Orthodox Jewish) sites too.
All use their own wording but the meaning is always the same (and very Biblical)
a] The duration is vague, unknown, and similar words. *
b] Only God knows the duration.
c] Olam is without a single exception always limited.
*= It's not per definition vague because it's so far away, beyond the horizon etc. For the slave olam lasted the rest of his life (few decades). For Jonah olam lasted 3 days and 3 nights. 3 days is a very nearby horizon. So basically olam means: Only God knows the duration.
I missed this post earlier WW,
"Only God knows the duration". Perfect. Exactly.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 05:20:02 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Is God limited to the eons?
I've never seen anyone on this forum claiming that.
QuotePersonally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture..
Personally I think you go WAAAYYY to far in forcing Scripture to mean what you think it should mean because you still don't see what olam life is.
QuoteIt is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.
That we certainly doesn't include me because Scripture clearly links olam to the duration of 'hell' many times, but not a single verse links olam to God's lifespan (which is eternal). So you yield to accepting olam means endless because you incorrectly assume it has any relation to the lifespan of God and the length of everlasting life for all humanity.
QuoteYahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.
Rain is wet. That's also fact but unrelated to the olam discussion.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 03:16:51 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
While I agree with you that argument won't convince many....
Some will just say the horizon is infinity far away. It's not endless, but it just last infinitely long. All to eons varying from very short to long don't exclude an endless eon.
That's an assumption can't be proven wrong. The fact that the Bible defines olam over and over as something limited isn't proof it can't go beyond that.
If it is not endless but lasts infinitely long, then wouldn't it be endless? If an eon has a consummation, how could it last infinitely long?
As I understand the explanation of "olam" it is the horizon as far as the eye can see. The eye cannot see an infinite distance, which is why there is a concept of "to the horizon ... and beyond." You cannot have a "beyond" for something that is endless of itself. That's like, saying "forever and ever."
I think the question is how many worlds are we considering here ?
we have this one world
but we know there is another world without end right
called the new heavens and earth , this is the world without a beginning or end
as this world we are in corruption is temporary , just as our mortal bodies are temporary , no life beyond mortality
the Spirit has no expiration date
I think I understand now. Took me a while, as I am not a scholar of these terms but would like to understand it better. I've been shown by one of you plenty of verses that confirm we are all going to be "saved". That's presumably from DEATH which = immortality. I get that the phrase "eternal life" in the bible is a mistranslation, but if we're to become immortal, it does literally mean eternal life as far as I can tell. So that's good news! It does in fact seem like there is more than enough support for eternal salvation/immorality/eternal life, without referring to scriptures that may or may not use the same term as used to "refer to Hell" as eternal punishment.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on November 11, 2014, 06:59:09 PM
I think I understand now. Took me a while, as I am not a scholar of these terms but would like to understand it better. I've been shown by one of you plenty of verses that confirm we are all going to be "saved". That's presumably from DEATH which = immortality. I get that the phrase "eternal life" in the bible is a mistranslation, but if we're to become immortal, it does literally mean eternal life as far as I can tell. So that's good news! It does in fact seem like there is more than enough support for eternal salvation/immorality/eternal life, without referring to scriptures that may or may not use the same term as used to "refer to Hell" as eternal punishment.
Yes, there are two concepts to understand: life and immortality
2 Tim 1:10
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought
life and immortality to light through the gospel.
I think the reason Paul speaks of "life and immortality" is because he taught that "life" is to be free from sin (Romans 8, 1 Tim 5:6). But he also wants us to know that we will literally live forever too.
Jesus Christ: "I am the resurrection and the life."
Quote from: rosered on November 11, 2014, 06:45:37 PM
I think the question is how many world are we considering here ?
we have this one world
but we know there is another world without end right
called the new heavens and earth , this is the world without a beginning or end
as this world we are in corruption is temporary , just as our mortal bodies are temporary , no life beyond mortality
the Spirit has no expiration date
Good point Rose, as in certain instances and in many Hebrew reference books olam has to do with world or "other worldly" or the "world beyond". It is translated "world" in places as is aion. The only reason aion could be translated as "world, imo, is a carry over from olam, because aion has no feature of world connected to it that I kno of.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 11, 2014, 05:20:02 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 11, 2014, 02:42:29 PM
The eons are obviously not "eternal" because they have a consummation.
"Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." (1 Corinthians 10:11)
"For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation" (1 Corinthians 15:22-24)
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
Is God limited to the eons? Personally, I think we go WAAAYYY to far in UR to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture.. It is as if we think by accepting that olam sometimes refers to endlessness we are yieding to it meaning endlessness when referring to hell.
Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God.
I believe God transcends time, of which the eons are indefinite but finite periods, and God created the eons through Christ. So I don't understand how somebody could think God is "limited to the eons." I don't understand what you mean about going way too far "to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture." Scripture says the eons have consummations and a consummation. I think the concept of eternity is not in the ancient scriptures. Someone might cite Romans 1:20, but I think the Greek "aidios" means "imperceptible" not "eternal." (see the attachment) Despite the fact that the word is not in scripture, I think only God could be said to be "eternal" because he has no beginning or end. As I said before, God transcends time because it is part of his creation. So I think we will have "immortality" as scripture promises, but I think it is inaccurate to say we will have "eternal life." I think that can only be said of God. After the consummation of the eons, we may have a completely different perception of time if time even exists anymore. We may just perceive everything in the present as it seems God does because he knows what we perceive as the past and the future. I think I remember hearing that there is no past or future tense in Hebrew, and, if my memory is correct, that may be the reason for that. I think folks are just so used to saying "eternal life" that they don't want to give it up even though "immortality" means we will never die again. How can it be said that we will have "eternal life" if we had a beginning? I think, instead of us going way too far "to destroy the concept of endless life in the language of scripture," some folks like to stretch the meaning of "eternal" into "perpetual." When you say "Yahweh El Olam, however, is not limited to the eons. He abides forever So will the sons of God," I think you're mixing a couple of ideas. I've already said I think God "is not limited to the eons," but I think saying, "He abides forever So will the sons of God" kind of confuses the issue. I think "forever" can progress from now on from a starting point, but God existed before there even was a starting point because he is outside time. In other words, we will live "forever" after we receive "immortality," but we have not always lived as God has. That's why the whole "eternal life" thing is confusing, and it's not scriptural anyway. I think the Greek "aion," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," signify a period of time, not eternal, infinite, or endless time, that can be the three days Jonah was in the great fish or the millennium to come, and we don't know how long the final eon will last. The point is I don't see why somebody needs to cling to the concept of "eternal life" when we all obviously had a beginning, and that means we can't be "eternal." The words "eternal," "everlasting," and my favorite "for ever and ever" are really comical if you think about it just like much of the rest of church doctrine. Monty Python and Mel Brooks come to mind. I guess it's really a comedy/horror combo though. I mean the idea that somebody who has a beginning can stay alive after they die to be tortured in fire from before time was created to "for ever and ever," and why not just add another "ever" for good measure? is really wacko! I think anybody who is familiar with an accurate translation of scripture, and considers a literal interpretation of the word "eternal," should think "eternal life" can really only apply to Yahweh Elohim, the creator of all including time.
"To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations, and to enlighten all as to what is the administration of the secret, which has been concealed from the eons in God, Who creates all, that now may be made known to the sovereignties and the authorities among the celestials, through the ecclesia, the multifarious wisdom of God, in accord with the purpose of the eons, which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord" (Ephesians 3:8-11)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: WhiteWings on November 11, 2014, 03:26:36 PMWhat's your view on the view that Mat 25:46 is about the quality of life?
That would make the list:
Olam=duration
Olam=source
Olam=quality
Most definitely quality is tied into it as well. That quality is tied, however, to the source from which it comes, and which characterizes it. Life olam, for the people back then, was not a new concept Yeshua invented when he came on the scene. It was imbedded as a hope for his people, as an inheritance, and it was tied to the age of Mashiach. All that characterized his appearing characterized that life.
Ronen
I for one think
the old language of scriptures is considered the dark ages , when we have the Day,,, Light of Christ with us now , its the SPIRIT that gives life
and Just like the old wine
who would drink old wine when the new one is better ?
some will say the old is better , but those are the ones without new wine skins yet !
everything has its place ! the Testimony of Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of Prophecy
I want to witness the same testimony of Jesus Christ as many are my brethren and fellow heirs with Christ
Romans 8 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Spirit and Truth has no boundaries ! the Word of God is not bound !! Jesus Christ is the Word of God
So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?
Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.
Thank you all for your patience!
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on February 06, 2015, 03:25:59 AM
Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.
1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
The concept of death no longer exists so nobody will die. Ok, you could
assume God reintroduces death after a while. But that has no Biblical support whatsoever.
IMO
The dependency of some UR believers on the set value of aionios- an age- is not necessarily perfect, since aionios is a translation of "olam" (hebrew)
In over 400 OT occurences the value of olam is not set, it varies as an unknown quantity depending on the value of the subject it is applied to.
Meaning, depending on the context, "from ancient times" or the "distant future" -when conjoined with God (YHWH olam) it means eternal, evelasting, through the ages and beyond", when conjoined with the lives of believers it means the same thing, because God is the source and the measure of their life.
So when speaking of "aionios zoe" which is olam life, Jesus means everlasting- or more appropriately(and in keeping with aionios) into the age beyond the ages.
When speaking of olam correction, "aionios kolassis" or fire "aionios pyr" although some say it means a set period(age), it means an indefinite period(although within an age), measured by whatever it takes for the correction to be effected.
At a certain point, time will be no more, there will be no more ages, no more correction, all will be subjected to the love of God in Christ. God, the infinite immortal One, will be all in all. All will live forever.
Heaven is a state of being. In terms of place, it is a matter of being "within the veil" or "in the spirit" or better yet, in the context of your question, heaven is "in the presence of God", so.....
We will live forever because we will be filled up to all the fulness of God, and God who lives forever will be all in all. The exact nature of that existence has not yet be revealed, "Brethren, we kno not yet what we will be but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".
You can examine olam for yourself and its various applications here. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm (http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm)
Quote from: eaglesway on February 06, 2015, 09:10:09 AM
IMO
The dependency of some UR believers on the set value of aionios- an age- is not necessarily perfect, since aionios is a translation of "olam" (hebrew)
In over 400 OT occurences the value of olam is not set, it varies as an unknown quantity depending on the value of the subject it is applied to.
Meaning, depending on the context, "from ancient times" or the "distant future" -when conjoined with God (YHWH olam) it means eternal, evelasting, through the ages and beyond"- because altho unknown olam) and far distant(olam) God is eternal. when conjoined with the lives of believers it means the same thing, because God is the source and the measure of their olam life(aionios zoe).
So when speaking of "aionios zoe" which is olam life, Jesus means everlasting- or more appropriately(and in keeping with aionios) into the age beyond the ages.
When speaking of olam correction, "aionios kolassis" or fire "aionios pyr" although some say it means a set period(age), it means an indefinite period(although within an age), measured by whatever it takes for the correction to be effected.
At a certain point, time will be no more, there will be no more ages, no more correction, all will be subjected to the love of God in Christ. God, the infinite immortal One, will be all in all. All will live forever.
Heaven is a state of being. In terms of place, it is a matter of being "within the veil" or "in the spirit" or better yet, in the context of your question, heaven is "in the presence of God", so.....
We will live forever because we will be filled up to all the fulness of God, and God who lives forever will be all in all. The exact nature of that existence has not yet be revealed, "Brethren, we kno not yet what we will be but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is".
You can examine olam for yourself and its various applications here. http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm (http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm)
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on February 06, 2015, 03:25:59 AM
So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?
Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.
Thank you all for your patience!
There's actually no verbatim verse that says Christians die and go to heaven. Even ETers have to admit that. However, we can derive much from looking at the scriptures together. The Bible says we will have immortality, we have bodies in Heaven waiting for us, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the gift and calling of God is irrevocable and being with Christ is a gift of grace, Paul said he longed to be with Jesus after he died, and again, "this mortal must put on immortality." The translation of aionios cannot affect the duration of immortality. Immortals don't die.
I believe heaven is a reference to the heavens and the earth, the sky and the ground, where the sky is comparable to God's higher state of being compared to man's lower state, which is why I think Jesus said that the son of Man was in heaven even while he was among them on earth. Much of what ideas taught about heaven as a locale with gold streets and angels with harps is taken from symbolic language in the prophecies. Paul said he'd had an experience where he went to the "third heaven" but decided it was indescribable, so I don't try to seek out descriptions of the indescribable. So I agree, I'm not prone to viewing it as a location. Wherever God is, there's heaven. Anything beyond that, I believe, a mystery. In any case, when we look at 1 Cor 15 as WW mentioned, we see Jesus doing all the work and God being all in all. There are no "if...then..." conditions in it and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. No takey backsies and when death is destroyed what's left but life everywhere?
These are really good answers. I particularly appreciate WhiteWings' approach because it is simple and logical. Handled directly and literally, if death is destroyed, it is no more. And if there is no more death, no one can die (obviously). I should think it'd be incredibly difficult for anyone to argue with that.
So if we couple "Eventually, there will be no death" with "Jesus said that if he was resurrected he would draw everyone to himself", I think that's a pretty good case for Universalism.
Of course I could be missing something, who knows?
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on February 06, 2015, 07:04:12 PM
Of course I could be missing something, who knows?
More accepted/known in Jewish circles is that death is also the name of an angel.
Rev 9:11 Abaddon/Apollyon (Hades).
But his kingdom is destroyed/taken away 1 Cor 15:55-56
I guess it's just a different way to say the same thing :winkgrin:
Quote from: Seth on February 06, 2015, 05:40:41 PM
Quote from: Vic 2.0 on February 06, 2015, 03:25:59 AM
So are there any verses in the bible to indicate that we will be in heaven FOREVER (WITHOUT using the word aionos), or not?
Or is it just as biblical to believe we'll only be drawn unto Jesus for a set amount of time and then die, be destroyed, etc.
Thank you all for your patience!
There's actually no verbatim verse that says Christians die and go to heaven. Even ETers have to admit that. However, we can derive much from looking at the scriptures together. The Bible says we will have immortality, we have bodies in Heaven waiting for us, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, the gift and calling of God is irrevocable and being with Christ is a gift of grace, Paul said he longed to be with Jesus after he died, and again, "this mortal must put on immortality." The translation of aionios cannot affect the duration of immortality. Immortals don't die.
I think heaven should be 'the heavens', which is anything above the earth. Here is a verse that says we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
O"DEATH!,I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES! DEATH is consumed of His love and jealousy for His creation. SOS 8;6 Place me
like a seal over your heart,like a seal on your arm...for love is as strong as death..it's jealousy as unyielding as the grave.
It burns like blazing fire,like a mighty flame!