Follow the law.

[ed]

Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.

He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.

I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:

It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?

Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.

.

[Tom]

Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.

He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.

I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:

It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?

Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.

.

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

[ed]

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

Thanks Tom,

My friend would say,

Shall we break the law because we love?

[Seth]

Ask him if he believes we should keep circumcision. If he says no, because circumcision is spiritual in the heart, then show him that the entire law is likewise fulfilled, so that if we obey that one command to love, breaking the law is impossible.

[eaglesway]

There is no good answer. the circular reasoning of law/torah promoters always devolves into the set of primary commands they seek to bind others with- usually the name of God, sometimes dietary and feast days.

They cannot receive the new commandment. Love does no ill too its neighbor. The fruit of the Spirit- against such their is no law. the love shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given us. Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

As such they will always diminish love and elevate the law over the Spirit- Can't help themselves because they are outside the veil, bound by the letter.

2 Cor chapter 3 explains it pretty well. Galatians chapters 2-5 in more detail.

Ezekiel 11:17-20 and Ezekiel 36:24-28 are nearly the same, and works well if there is any openess at all, explaining that what the law could not do because of man's weakness, the Spirit can do because of the resurrection of Christ, providing an inner motivation and ability that transcends the law- Christ in you the hope of glory. "Behold it is written of me I come to do Your will O God."

He came not by the law or the will of man, but by the Spirit, and we are born of God not by the will of man but by the Spirit of God.

When the Spirit is first, the law is fulfilled without ordinances, by the manifestation of the divine nature.

"He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall gush forth rivers of living water- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit which was to be given to those who believe." John ch. 7 


Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

They will usually tak the part "cause you to keep my ordinances" and try to flip keeping Torah over walking in the Spirit and will rarely acknowledge that Jesus said "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another" but will quote, "If you love me you will keep my commands" and then push Torah and whatever their favorite ordinaces are upon you.


They have a zeal for God, as Paul said, but it is not according to knowledge.  They are veiled to the new covenant, and the perfect law of liberty.

2 Cor 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

[Tom]

"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)

Thanks Tom,

My friend would say,

Shall we break the law because we love?

We don't "break the law because we love" because we fulfill "the law because we love."

[joeteekay]

Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.

He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.

I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:

It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?

Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.

.

In addition to what Seth said, does he (your friend) feel he needs to keep the Sabbath and holy days as described in Lev. 23?
I am experiencing the same thing you are with former acquittance's who mix old covenant with new covenant, even tithing.

More to say if you wish!

[Tom]

Read Galatians!

[Seth]

Read Galatians!

LOL right?

[rosered]

Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.

He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.

I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:

It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?

Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.

.

Romans     8   what the law could not do    , its only  half the     or the  SHADOW  dark   side of the moon ,        the law brings death

    the Spirit of Christ  brings life  IT is  THE  new  DAY      Jesus come to finish the work

  you have to have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in you both
  not just the Spirit of God under the old law
  to me       and Like Seth and Joe   brought up the circumcision  is the cutting off of the flesh , by the laws of   keeping the Torah    making one self righteous /none can keep all the law

   the Law in Christ is   the circumcision of the heart   by His righteousness       making one merciful   to all

  for me those still under the old law / altar are    still dead ,  renewing of the Holy Spirit   ,, till Christ gives them life

waiting on the Lord

   9 But you are not ·ruled by [controlled by; or in] ·your sinful selves [your sinful nature; T the flesh], but ·by [or in] the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But the person who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.


10 Your body ·will always be [L is] dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit ·gives you [L is] life, because ·Christ made you right with God [L of righteousness]. 11 God raised Jesus from the dead, and if God's Spirit is living in you, the One who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies that die, through[c] his Spirit who lives in you.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup:

It's sort of like what Eaglesway said, and Sheila in another post, there is a nuance to this thing. Following the Spirit vs the letter, rather than following the Spirit to follow the letter. If one doesn't see it, he doesn't see it and it becomes a circular debate that can go on forever.

[rosered]

:thumbsup:

It's sort of like what Eaglesway said, and Sheila in another post, there is a nuance to this thing. Following the Spirit vs the letter, rather than following the Spirit to follow the letter. If one doesn't see it, he doesn't see it and it becomes a circular debate that can go on forever.

  Yes and that is the great part Seth    !  it is appointed  unto man to die once and than the judgment

    When one dies to   self , sinful nature   and    that is what the Letter of the law does  kills   the carnal nature that is the enmity  against the Spirit      ,   and it is good       that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil
   this is why Jesus says   make the tree good and its fruits good or make it corrupt  and its fruits a tree is known by its fruits   
  to me this is the judgement of Christ           die once and than the judgment     , that old  nature
  when the    tree is good its        judged   righteous

  if its bad its judged  as   useless and cast into the fire 

  the new nature to me is the same baptism of death of Jesus , taking up your cross       and following Him
  under the old law  your not    even close    to     Jesus yet  but the old man of sin is still     under the law and ministration of death the letter that kills 

  this is still the old   fire stone preachers  with the  condemnation of death  message    and  this fruit of their lips   

  the two tablets   of stone   [both law and grace ]       not the heart of Flesh  and the  ONE  STONE /Christ   the builders  still reject

to me anyways  and so far lol


   making the tree good     

[Seth]

When one dies to   self , sinful nature   and    that is what the Letter of the law does  kills   the carnal nature that is the enmity  against the Spirit      ,   and it is good       that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Personally, I believe that the letter of the law intensifies the carnal nature bringing man into a deeper form of death that he needs to escape.

[rosered]

When one dies to   self , sinful nature   and    that is what the Letter of the law does  kills   the carnal nature that is the enmity  against the Spirit      ,   and it is good       that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil

Personally, I believe that the letter of the law intensifies the carnal nature bringing man into a deeper form of death that he needs to escape.

  I Agree   Seth   anything not  done in faith is sin ,    and keeping the  law  shows  that there is no faith !!
  its one path broad one leads to destruction  many go this way 
  or the other path  narrow one    ,we follow   after     the law/tree of knowledge  of good and evil  /tree the Lord Jesus hung on to openly show and fulfill the law [faith]       few leads to Life
  the law of the old way  shows no faith  according to Paul in Gal 3

Gal 3  13 12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.


" 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "--


14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[Seth]

Amen. As Micah says, he is risen  :dsunny:

[ed]

Very helpful all!

Thanks.

Sometimes I mention that not under the law, and get, "you just don't want to obey the law".  I think about it and sure enough.........I don't want to keep a Sabbath.  Not because I don't love God, I just don't want to be religious about it...........  I would not know if I was  keeping the Sabbath correctly,  so I would have to find a Rabbi to instruct me............many many reasons I don't want to go down that road.  I love the freedom in Christ, and find it better to listen to and obey the Spirit then the voice and judgement of man.

[joeteekay]

 :thumbsup:

[rosered]

Very helpful all!

Thanks.

Sometimes I mention that not under the law, and get, "you just don't want to obey the law".  I think about it and sure enough.........I don't want to keep a Sabbath.  Not because I don't love God, I just don't want to be religious about it...........  I would not know if I was  keeping the Sabbath correctly,  so I would have to find a Rabbi to instruct me............many many reasons I don't want to go down that road.  I love the freedom in Christ, and find it better to listen to and obey the Spirit then the voice and judgement of man.

Keeping the Sabbath    DAY   is Keeping the Spirit of Christ in you  ,  growing in Truth and grace to me  Ed

   He said come all you whom are heavy laden   and weary   , I will give you REST   learn about me !!    ,  this is from trying to keep that law  without faith in Jesus!!!   
Oxymoron to the max eh ??

  I keep the Sabbath   Jesus and DAY   IS THE LIGHT OF CHRIST  that is  Holy   and is Spirit   both the FATHER &SON  =  Word is Truth      in the sense of always with me and do many  who have   JESUS CHRIST       SO we do worship Him in SPIRIT  &TRUTH ,  AS THE FATHER seeks those to worship HIM  in the earth  , He chooses  any of us , and dwells within us , our desire is to please the Lord        only the new creature in Christ keeps the  commandments of God and that is the indwelling work of the Father and the Son  both  making the  Holy   rest        for us and  doing greater works than these because  HE  is with the Father and with  us ,    being  you and me  etc  His Father your Father Our Father ..   ... 
now I do not keep the fleshly   traditions of men by     doing those things   that  appear holy before men    I cannot boast in anything  except Jesus Christ and Him crucified           knowing   that only good and perfect things are  to keep coming   from His Spirit and truth

[Tom]

Why try to be Jews when we're not? We are the chosen called out of the nations to be the body of Christ. The law showed the Jews that they couldn't save themselves through works. Why willingly become subject to law that doesn't even apply to us? That is the fallacy of church doctrine. Every day is the Lord's day. Why worry about the Sabbath? Why give a tenth of your income to the church? Tithing is part of the Jewish law. Is your church a synagogue? If you want to be subject to the Jewish law, be prepared to obey 613 commandments because you can't just pick and choose what you like. You'd be better off just believing scripture, forget about the law, and thank God you are saved in grace through faith.

[rosered]

Why try to be Jews when we're not? We are the chosen called out of the nations to be the body of Christ. The law showed the Jews that they couldn't save themselves through works. Why willingly become subject to law that doesn't even apply to us? That is the fallacy of church doctrine. Every day is the Lord's day. Why worry about the Sabbath? Why give a tenth of your income to the church? Tithing is part of the Jewish law. Is your church a synagogue? If you want to be subject to the Jewish law, be prepared to obey 613 commandments because you can't just pick and choose what you like. You'd be better off just believing scripture, forget about the law, and thank God you are saved in grace through faith.

  I believe everyone is born a Jew inwardly  Bro TOM   I say this because of the    line all the way back to Adam          and to simplify it 
there is the old Adam and the New Adam     

  one is  a living soul and the other is a life giving SPIRIT

and  its one or the other     , because keeping it simple   ,   makes truth   crystal    clear and     there is freedom in the Truth  :HeartThrob:
 

[Tom]

Well, I understand what you're saying, sis, but I don't see it that way just like I don't agree with folks who think the church replaced Israel.

[rosered]

 
  I find it amazing  also that any one of the chosen out of the  whole world were nothing special   or  perfect  but God chose them for His own  purpose and task   when reading   2 Corth  3

  the false  spirits are those whom  want to ''replace ''     the Spirit of Christ in you    ??       and this is Paul warning us not to be tricked into accepting another Jesus      an anti Christ spirit         ,  it  can never   give you real peace and joy  nor   truth and  mostly REST   in Hope in LOVE   , this will always be the  failure   to the true test of faith    in my opinion /judgement


11 I wish you would be patient with me even ·when I am a little foolish [in a little foolishness], but you are already doing that.


2 [L For] I am jealous over you with a ·jealousy that comes from God [or godly jealousy]. I promised to give you to Christ, as your only husband.


I want to give you as his pure ·bride [L virgin].


3 But I am afraid that your minds will be ·led away [or corrupted] from your ·true [sincere] and pure following of Christ just as Eve was ·tricked [deceived] by the ·snake [serpent] with his ·evil ways [cunning; craftiness; Gen. 3:1–6].


4 You ·are very patient with [willingly put up with; gladly tolerate] anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus from the one we preached.


You are very willing to accept a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received, or a gospel that is different from the one you ·accepted [or received from us].

5 I do not think that those "·great [super-] apostles" are any better than I am. 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have shown this to you clearly in every way.

[rosered]

Well, I understand what you're saying, sis, but I don't see it that way just like I don't agree with folks who think the church replaced Israel.

   What do you believe Tom ?   
  you do not believe what ?  a true Jew is by the natural     and by the flesh  only  ?
  no  flesh pleases God and  no flesh inherits the Kingdom    , so are you saying      Jews are  by birthright of the flesh only ?

  This  does not  make sense to me  , just as I may not make any sense to you  than

   and the BRIDE  OF CHRIST IS OF THE SPIRIT  ONLY  , no flesh again Tom and   we dont   even know Jesus by the Flesh any more    and He was born as a Jew  and  woman under the law      but was conceived  by the Holy Spirit    and called the Holy Thing [ holy one ]     what flesh is not the same flesh    and the glorified state  is of the same flesh of Jesus  meaning covering   sarx   flesh      skin
  what was the need to cover Adam and Eve from nakeness / sin   when they still had  flesh  as skin   sarx    as  a covering [ lamb of God ]and needing Jesus   as a covering for sin ?      and the Jews   remain   uncovered ?    human  sarx   skins of flesh and blood ?     Lamb ,  little one  not a sheep , Lamb of God  ,  you have to enter as  a little one  , and the Jews are called lost sheep   not lambs ?

Ok I have explained my stance
  please I am all ears now , you can explain your  faith and I will honestly listen

[Tom]

Paul seems to think there's a difference between the Jews and those of us of the nations.

[rosered]

Paul seems to think there's a difference between the Jews and those of us of the nations.

Yes  Paul was a Jew
  everyone is the Jew by nature     if you go back to the Beginning
  where did all the other ''nations''    come from than ?
many nations would come out of Abraham  a Jewish father of faith
I just want to understand     Tom 
I  can only divide between the flesh and Spirit
  and that is not your fault