Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.
He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.
I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:
Quote
It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.
Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?
Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.
.
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 04:03:41 AM
Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.
He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.
I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:
Quote
It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.
Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?
Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.
.
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 04:13:47 AM
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
Thanks Tom,
My friend would say,
Shall we break the law because we love?
Ask him if he believes we should keep circumcision. If he says no, because circumcision is spiritual in the heart, then show him that the entire law is likewise fulfilled, so that if we obey that one command to love, breaking the law is impossible.
There is no good answer. the circular reasoning of law/torah promoters always devolves into the set of primary commands they seek to bind others with- usually the name of God, sometimes dietary and feast days.
They cannot receive the new commandment. Love does no ill too its neighbor. The fruit of the Spirit- against such their is no law. the love shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit that was given us. Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
As such they will always diminish love and elevate the law over the Spirit- Can't help themselves because they are outside the veil, bound by the letter.
2 Cor chapter 3 explains it pretty well. Galatians chapters 2-5 in more detail.
Ezekiel 11:17-20 and Ezekiel 36:24-28 are nearly the same, and works well if there is any openess at all, explaining that what the law could not do because of man's weakness, the Spirit can do because of the resurrection of Christ, providing an inner motivation and ability that transcends the law- Christ in you the hope of glory. "Behold it is written of me I come to do Your will O God."
He came not by the law or the will of man, but by the Spirit, and we are born of God not by the will of man but by the Spirit of God.
When the Spirit is first, the law is fulfilled without ordinances, by the manifestation of the divine nature.
"He that believes in me, out of his innermost being shall gush forth rivers of living water- this He spoke of the Holy Spirit which was to be given to those who believe." John ch. 7
Ezekiel 36: 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
They will usually tak the part "cause you to keep my ordinances" and try to flip keeping Torah over walking in the Spirit and will rarely acknowledge that Jesus said "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another" but will quote, "If you love me you will keep my commands" and then push Torah and whatever their favorite ordinaces are upon you.
They have a zeal for God, as Paul said, but it is not according to knowledge. They are veiled to the new covenant, and the perfect law of liberty.
2 Cor 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 04:43:08 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 04:13:47 AM
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
Thanks Tom,
My friend would say,
Shall we break the law because we love?
We don't "break the law because we love" because we fulfill "the law because we love."
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 04:03:41 AM
Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.
He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.
I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:
Quote
It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.
Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?
Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.
.
In addition to what Seth said, does he (your friend) feel he needs to keep the Sabbath and holy days as described in Lev. 23?
I am experiencing the same thing you are with former acquittance's who mix old covenant with new covenant, even tithing.
More to say if you wish!
Read Galatians!
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 04:03:41 AM
Been spinning my wheels with this fellow for a long time.
He makes good points and is sincere in his belief on the law.
I'm looking for a one liner that disputes this
His quote:
Quote
It's better, but it's not different. The Spirit won't lead you to break the Law. It was the Spirit of God that gave the Torah. Every Word of it was originally Spirit. Moses didn't come up with it on his own. The Spirit shows you how to keep the Law correctly. How can you say you don't keep the commandments, but you keep the Spirit? That's an oximoron.
Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Maybe there is just no good answer, and I should just leave it alone?
Hard to leave it alone because the influence is always the same and constantly harping the law........he is good at it.
.
Romans 8 what the law could not do , its only half the or the SHADOW dark side of the moon , the law brings death
the Spirit of Christ brings life IT is THE new DAY Jesus come to finish the work
you have to have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ in you both
not just the Spirit of God under the old law
to me and Like Seth and Joe brought up the circumcision is the cutting off of the flesh , by the laws of keeping the Torah making one self righteous /none can keep all the law
the Law in Christ is the circumcision of the heart by His righteousness making one merciful to all
for me those still under the old law / altar are still dead , renewing of the Holy Spirit ,, till Christ gives them life
waiting on the Lord
9 But you are not ·ruled by [controlled by; or in] ·your sinful selves [your sinful nature; T the flesh], but ·by [or in]
the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But the person who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ. 10 Your body ·will always be [L is] dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit ·gives you [L is] life, because ·Christ made you right with God [L of righteousness]. 11 God raised Jesus from the dead, an
d if God's Spirit is living in you, the One who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies that die, through[c] his Spirit who lives in you.
:thumbsup:
It's sort of like what Eaglesway said, and Sheila in another post, there is a nuance to this thing. Following the Spirit vs the letter, rather than following the Spirit to follow the letter. If one doesn't see it, he doesn't see it and it becomes a circular debate that can go on forever.
Quote from: Seth on November 07, 2014, 05:52:47 PM
:thumbsup:
It's sort of like what Eaglesway said, and Sheila in another post, there is a nuance to this thing. Following the Spirit vs the letter, rather than following the Spirit to follow the letter. If one doesn't see it, he doesn't see it and it becomes a circular debate that can go on forever.
Yes and that is the great part Seth ! it is appointed unto man to die once and than the judgment
When one dies to self , sinful nature and that is what the Letter of the law does kills the carnal nature that is the enmity against the Spirit , and it is good that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil
this is why Jesus says make the tree good and its fruits good or make it corrupt and its fruits a tree is known by its fruits
to me this is the judgement of Christ die once and than the judgment , that old nature
when the tree is good its judged righteous
if its bad its judged as useless and cast into the fire
the new nature to me is the same baptism of death of Jesus , taking up your cross and following Him
under the old law your not even close to Jesus yet but the old man of sin is still under the law and ministration of death the letter that kills
this is still the old fire stone preachers with the condemnation of death message and this fruit of their lips
the two tablets of stone [both law and grace ] not the heart of Flesh and the ONE STONE /Christ the builders still reject
to me anyways and so far lol
making the tree good
QuoteWhen one dies to self , sinful nature and that is what the Letter of the law does kills the carnal nature that is the enmity against the Spirit , and it is good that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Personally, I believe that the letter of the law intensifies the carnal nature bringing man into a deeper form of death that he needs to escape.
Quote from: Seth on November 07, 2014, 06:28:12 PM
QuoteWhen one dies to self , sinful nature and that is what the Letter of the law does kills the carnal nature that is the enmity against the Spirit , and it is good that law in the tree of knowledge of good and evil
Personally, I believe that the letter of the law intensifies the carnal nature bringing man into a deeper form of death that he needs to escape.
I Agree Seth anything not done in faith is sin , and keeping the law shows that there is no faith !!
its one path broad one leads to destruction many go this way
or the other path narrow one ,we follow after the law/tree of knowledge of good and evil /tree the Lord Jesus hung on to openly show and fulfill the law [faith] few leads to Life
the law of the old way shows no faith according to Paul in Gal 3
Gal 3 13 12However,
the Law is not of faith;
on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM.
" 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "--
14in
order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Amen. As Micah says, he is risen :dsunny:
Very helpful all!
Thanks.
Sometimes I mention that not under the law, and get, "you just don't want to obey the law". I think about it and sure enough.........I don't want to keep a Sabbath. Not because I don't love God, I just don't want to be religious about it........... I would not know if I was keeping the Sabbath correctly, so I would have to find a Rabbi to instruct me............many many reasons I don't want to go down that road. I love the freedom in Christ, and find it better to listen to and obey the Spirit then the voice and judgement of man.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 07:04:41 PM
Very helpful all!
Thanks.
Sometimes I mention that not under the law, and get, "you just don't want to obey the law". I think about it and sure enough.........I don't want to keep a Sabbath. Not because I don't love God, I just don't want to be religious about it........... I would not know if I was keeping the Sabbath correctly, so I would have to find a Rabbi to instruct me............many many reasons I don't want to go down that road. I love the freedom in Christ, and find it better to listen to and obey the Spirit then the voice and judgement of man.
Keeping the Sabbath DAY is Keeping the Spirit of Christ in you , growing in Truth and grace to me Ed
He said come all you whom are heavy laden and weary , I will give you REST learn about me !! , this is from trying to keep that law without faith in Jesus!!!
Oxymoron to the max eh ??
I keep the Sabbath Jesus and DAY IS THE LIGHT OF CHRIST that is
Holy and is
Spirit both the FATHER &SON = Word is Truth in the sense of always with me and do many who have JESUS CHRIST SO we do worship Him in SPIRIT &TRUTH , AS THE FATHER seeks those to worship HIM in the earth , He chooses any of us , and dwells within us , our desire is to please the Lord only the new creature in Christ keeps the commandments of God and that is the indwelling work of the Father and the Son both making the Holy rest for us and doing greater works than these because HE is with the Father and with us , being you and me etc His Father your Father Our Father .. ...
now I do not keep the fleshly traditions of men by doing those things that appear holy before men I cannot boast in anything except Jesus Christ and Him crucified knowing that only good and perfect things are to keep coming from His Spirit and truth
Why try to be Jews when we're not? We are the chosen called out of the nations to be the body of Christ. The law showed the Jews that they couldn't save themselves through works. Why willingly become subject to law that doesn't even apply to us? That is the fallacy of church doctrine. Every day is the Lord's day. Why worry about the Sabbath? Why give a tenth of your income to the church? Tithing is part of the Jewish law. Is your church a synagogue? If you want to be subject to the Jewish law, be prepared to obey 613 commandments because you can't just pick and choose what you like. You'd be better off just believing scripture, forget about the law, and thank God you are saved in grace through faith.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 07:36:16 PM
Why try to be Jews when we're not? We are the chosen called out of the nations to be the body of Christ. The law showed the Jews that they couldn't save themselves through works. Why willingly become subject to law that doesn't even apply to us? That is the fallacy of church doctrine. Every day is the Lord's day. Why worry about the Sabbath? Why give a tenth of your income to the church? Tithing is part of the Jewish law. Is your church a synagogue? If you want to be subject to the Jewish law, be prepared to obey 613 commandments because you can't just pick and choose what you like. You'd be better off just believing scripture, forget about the law, and thank God you are saved in grace through faith.
I believe everyone is born a Jew inwardly Bro TOM I say this because of the line all the way back to Adam and to simplify it
there is the old Adam and the New Adam
one is a living soul and the other is a
life giving SPIRIT
and its one or the other , because keeping it simple , makes truth crystal clear and there is freedom in the Truth :HeartThrob:
Well, I understand what you're saying, sis, but I don't see it that way just like I don't agree with folks who think the church replaced Israel.
I find it amazing also that any one of the chosen out of the whole world were nothing special or perfect but God chose them for His own purpose and task when reading 2 Corth 3
the false spirits are those whom want to ''replace '' the Spirit of Christ in you ?? and this is Paul warning us not to be tricked into accepting another Jesus an anti Christ spirit , it can never give you real peace and joy nor truth and mostly REST in Hope in LOVE , this will always be the failure to the true test of faith in my opinion /judgement
11 I wish you would be patient with me even ·when I am a little foolish [in a little foolishness], but you are already doing that.
2 [L For] I am jealous over you with a ·jealousy that comes from God [or godly jealousy]. I promised to give you to Christ, as your only husband.
I want to give you as his pure ·bride [L virgin].
3 But I am afraid that your minds will be ·led away [or corrupted] from your ·true [sincere] and pure following of Christ just as Eve was ·tricked [deceived] by the ·snake [serpent] with his ·evil ways [cunning; craftiness; Gen. 3:1–6].
4 You ·are very patient with [willingly put up with; gladly tolerate] anyone who comes to you and preaches a different Jesus from the one we preached.
You are very willing to accept a spirit that is different from the Spirit you received, or a gospel that is different from the one you ·accepted [or received from us].
5 I do not think that those "·great [super-] apostles" are any better than I am. 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have shown this to you clearly in every way.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 07:54:33 PM
Well, I understand what you're saying, sis, but I don't see it that way just like I don't agree with folks who think the church replaced Israel.
What do you believe Tom ?
you do not believe what ? a true Jew is by the natural and by the flesh only ?
no flesh pleases God and no flesh inherits the Kingdom , so are you saying Jews are by birthright of the flesh only ?
This does not make sense to me , just as I may not make any sense to you than
and the BRIDE OF CHRIST IS OF THE SPIRIT ONLY , no flesh again Tom and we dont even know Jesus by the Flesh any more and He was born as a Jew and woman under the law but was conceived by the Holy Spirit and called the Holy Thing [ holy one ] what flesh is not the same flesh and the glorified state is of the same flesh of Jesus meaning covering sarx flesh skin
what was the need to cover Adam and Eve from nakeness / sin when they still had flesh as skin sarx as a covering [ lamb of God ]and needing Jesus as a covering for sin ? and the Jews remain uncovered ? human sarx skins of flesh and blood ? Lamb , little one not a sheep , Lamb of God , you have to enter as a little one , and the Jews are called lost sheep not lambs ?
Ok I have explained my stance
please I am all ears now , you can explain your faith and I will honestly listen
Paul seems to think there's a difference between the Jews and those of us of the nations.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 08:57:47 PM
Paul seems to think there's a difference between the Jews and those of us of the nations.
Yes Paul was a Jew
everyone is the Jew by nature if you go back to the Beginning
where did all the other ''nations'' come from than ?
many nations would come out of Abraham a Jewish father of faith
I just want to understand Tom
I can only divide between the flesh and Spirit
and that is not your fault
Like I said, sis, I understand what you're saying, and I know it is popular on this site. I'm not trying to offend you. You're my sister in Christ. I realize we are one with the Jews in spirit through Christ, but I think they still have an earthly mission to perform during the eons while we have been chosen to minister in the celestial realm. I'm aware of the scripture about there being no difference in Christ, and that all believers are one with Christ and the Father. But I also believe God chooses different folks for different tasks and operates differently at different times. That's why I don't think we're subject to the law and traditions of the Jews.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 09:27:04 PM
Like I said, sis, I understand what you're saying, and I know it is popular on this site. I'm not trying to offend you. You're my sister in Christ. I realize we are one with the Jews in spirit through Christ, but I think they still have an earthly mission to perform during the eons while we have been chosen to minister in the celestial realm. I'm aware of the scripture about there being no difference in Christ, and that all believers are one with Christ and the Father. But I also believe God chooses different folks for different tasks and operates differently at different times. That's why I don't think we're subject to the law and traditions of the Jews.
I agree that different people in the Body have different tasks, but I don't think that's based on the differences of the flesh. I think the scripture is pretty clear that all believers are Jews.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 08:57:47 PM
Paul seems to think there's a difference between the Jews and those of us of the nations.
Not within the household of the faith though. He was actually pretty clear that once we enter the household of the faith, the flesh creates no such difference, that all are the same man. A single man is not both Jew and Gentile. That's impossible. If all are one man, then all are one, and no differentiations remain according to the flesh.
It was Paul who said, we no longer know man after the flesh. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Why would God create us as a new creature both Jew and Gentile, tell us not to know each other after the flesh, only to tell us that there indeed are differences according to our flesh that place us in different administrations. I don't think that was part of Paul's ministry at all. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Seth on November 07, 2014, 09:49:15 PM
Not within the household of the faith though. He was actually pretty clear that once we enter the household of the faith, the flesh creates no such difference, that all are the same man. A single man is not both Jew and Gentile. That's impossible. If all are one man, then all are one, and no differentiations remain according to the flesh.
It was Paul who said, we no longer know man after the flesh. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Why would God create us as a new creature both Jew and Gentile, tell us not to know each other after the flesh, only to tell us that there indeed are differences according to our flesh that place us in different administrations. I don't think that was part of Paul's ministry at all. Just my opinion.
Great point.
It almost seems to read that they will be grafted back in as a nation if they remain not in unbelief? I think that confuses me a bit.
It is ether all the way no more nationality, or there is some reason to know nationality?
:dontknow:
I know what I prefer, but whether I am thinking in the spirit or carnally, I don't know.
.
I believe Christ will be ruling the kingdom of the heavens for the eons of the eons on earth in Jerusalem. I don't believe we who have been chosen and called out of the nations to be the body of Christ are Jews.
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 04:43:08 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 04:13:47 AM
"For the entire law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your associate as yourself."" (Galatians 5:14)
Thanks Tom,
My friend would say,
Shall we break the law because we love?
To know the one true God.
To know the one true God through the Law.
That kind of knowledge will rip apart your mind leaving you insane then DEAD.
Anyone who says they know the Law is blind.
They cannot see God .
Quote from: ed on November 07, 2014, 10:36:32 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 07, 2014, 09:49:15 PM
Not within the household of the faith though. He was actually pretty clear that once we enter the household of the faith, the flesh creates no such difference, that all are the same man. A single man is not both Jew and Gentile. That's impossible. If all are one man, then all are one, and no differentiations remain according to the flesh.
It was Paul who said, we no longer know man after the flesh. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Why would God create us as a new creature both Jew and Gentile, tell us not to know each other after the flesh, only to tell us that there indeed are differences according to our flesh that place us in different administrations. I don't think that was part of Paul's ministry at all. Just my opinion.
Great point.
It almost seems to read that they will be grafted back in as a nation if they remain not in unbelief? I think that confuses me a bit.
It is ether all the way no more nationality, or there is some reason to know nationality?
:dontknow:
I know what I prefer, but whether I am thinking in the spirit or carnally, I don't know.
.
Yes, they will be grafted in when they say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." When that happens, and regardless whenever anyone believes it will happen, they will join us as one people, one new man. We will not know eachother after the flesh.
As far as being as chosen nation, that identity was always conditioned on obedience. It was never an unconditional identity. It was also based on God's prerogative to define the the lineage through a single chosen son regardless of genetic heritage. It happened with Isaac, Jacob, and now Christ.
I'd also want to clarify about the term "replacement theology." I actually think that is a misnomer, the idea that the church replaces Israel.
Israel has always been the tree. God describes Israel as his firstborn son in the Old Testament (Hosea) which Matthew attributes directly to Christ. Israel is not replaceable. But his branches are. If it's a question of Israel being replaced, not possible. But if it's a question of the wild branches replacing the natural ones for a time, I don't see how that could possibly be refuted since it is a clear teaching of the Bible.
I think it is God who has temporarily blinded the Jews until all those who have been chosen of the nations will be called out to be the body of Christ, and then the Jews will get their promised earthly kingdom of the heavens which will subject the nations.
I agree, although I go by the Romans 2 definition of what it is to be a Jew, not outward according to the flesh, but inward according to the circumcision of the heart by the Spirit.
I understand the "circumcision of the heart, in spirit."
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 11:28:57 PM
I understand the "circumcision of the heart, in spirit."
Whenever Paul refers to Israel "according to the flesh" is to teach that such a thing (the flesh) does not define a Jew.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 09:27:04 PM
Like I said, sis, I understand what you're saying, and I know it is popular on this site. I'm not trying to offend you. You're my sister in Christ. I realize we are one with the Jews in spirit through Christ, but I think they still have an earthly mission to perform during the eons while we have been chosen to minister in the celestial realm. I'm aware of the scripture about there being no difference in Christ, and that all believers are one with Christ and the Father. But I also believe God chooses different folks for different tasks and operates differently at different times. That's why I don't think we're subject to the law and traditions of the Jews.
Hi Tom . I am not offended at all , just really trying to understand your point of view , that is all
you said
QuoteBut I also believe God chooses different folks for different tasks and operates differently at different times.
I do not see this in the scriptures , It clearly states that
Jesus Christ come to finish the work And to finish means have an end , not others or other times , just me though
He come in the fullness of times [time in the full complete ]"But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law" (Galatians 4:4)
this to me is the completing and finishing the law age eon ,,,, and the new age eon begins The sign and significance of the cross completeness or fullness of time
John 4:34 Jesus said unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
preparing for the Cross
Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit... Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. (John 12:24-27)
Now this work that Jesus had to complete was the FULL work of redemption.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
(2Co 5:17-21 ESV)
It is interesting in this regard that the single word that Jesus spoke (which we translate as 'It is finished') was 'tetelestai'. This certainly has the meaning of completion (which is what it primarily means in the context of John 19:30) but it can also mean 'discharge a debt' or 'paid in full'. It was common to the Jews and Romans of that time because it was the word they wrote on a debt that someone had, once it was paid. So this victory cry of Jesus would have also meant to His hearers "Paid in full!
Now, this work of redemption involved the completion or end of many other things. So as a secondary application you could say that 'It is finished' applied to the following as well (remember, this is not the primary meaning of those words in context but is a part of Jesus' work in dying for our sins...)
'It is finished' applies to:
· The work of redemption
· The Mosaic covenant with it's priesthood, temple and sacrifices
· The curse of the law
· Sin (in the sense that it was all placed upon Christ - past, present and future)
· The prophecies and types concerning the Messiah's death
· The old fallen creation (which was placed 'in Christ'). God's purposes are now centered on a 'new creation' in Christ.
· Satan's dominion and hold over man
· The separation of Jew and Gentile
and death reigning
I do and will always believe Jesus Christ is reigning now and al those gathered into Christ , they have passed from death to life
literally in the sense of this death has no power over those in Christ ever again
not in this life on , they shuck the mortal coil /husk and the new creature in Christ was there all along but Hidden in the mortal body /husk, Just as Jesus Christ was in the WORD ALL ALONG but hidden till the fullness of time had come
I think Jews, proud of their fleshly circumcision, but not having a "circumcision of the heart, in spirit, not in letter," are not living truly as Jews.
There was a time I thought I should try to be Jewish and almost joined a Messianic congregation until I found out they were just Jews who followed church doctrine.
Quote from: Tom on November 07, 2014, 11:59:05 PM
I think Jews, proud of their fleshly circumcision, but not having a "circumcision of the heart, in spirit, not in letter," are not living truly as Jews.
I don't believe they are Jews at all. I believe they are living as Gentiles. To be a Jew, you must have received the promise of Abraham: the Spirit. If Jesus Christ is one man, and he is a Jew, all those outside him are not. That's why I believe that revelation says that our Lord was crucified in Sodom and Egypt, and why Paul says, in Galatians that the present city of Jerusalem corresponds to Egypt and they are the children of Hagar, Gentiles.
this is why the Gospel was so controversial. They were being asked to give up everything they took pride in in order to win Christ.
That's where we disagree, bro. I think they're Jews who have not yet received their Messiah.
As I said before, I think it is God who has caused them not to see the light yet, but he has not un-Jewed them.
I think Paul was simply saying they were Jews only in appearance just as there are many church folks today who seem to be Christians only in appearance, but that didn't cancel them being Jews and the promise given to them of their future kingdom.
That's why I don't think we need to think we need to be Jews to be in the body of Christ because we came to Christ in grace through faith not being Jews but of the nations.
But God made a promise to us, and we are waiting for a new heaven and a new earth where goodness lives.
14 Dear friends, since you are waiting for this to happen, do your best to be without sin and without fault. Try to be at peace with God. 15 Remember that we are saved because our Lord is patient.
Peter
But I don't think we need to let this difference of opinion divide us. Just as I tend to interpret things a little more literally while others seem to interpret things a little more figuratively, I don't think that really affects our being one in spirit with each other, Christ, and the Father. We just have different perspectives which is to be expected considering we all have different past experiences that have brought us here. I think we can quibble and squabble or we can enjoy the diversity. I tend to enjoy the diversity just as I do in life in general while some other folks get tense about it. I think we are a family tapestry not a single color. I try to keep a sense of humor about differences because it keeps me happier about life.
Quote from: Tom on November 08, 2014, 12:19:27 AM
I think Paul was simply saying they were Jews only in appearance just as there are many church folks today who seem to be Christians only in appearance, but that didn't cancel them being Jews and the promise given to them of their future kingdom.
Paul was much more specific than that. He said that being a Jew was not according to the flesh but according to circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. In order to have the spirit you must believe. And for those who do not believe they have no inheritance and are therefore not sons of Abraham. Only sons have an inheritance. Those who are not sons of Abraham by definition are not Jews. This follows along with how God said that isaac was Abraham's only son even though Ishmael was a living literal person. This shows that it is not about literal vs not literal. It's about how God defines the seed from the very beginning which is for a chosen son not according to genetics. He has chosen to define a Jew through Christ by the Spirit and a Gentile as those who are not of the Spirit. And this is a very consistent thing all throughout the Bible, God choosing a son through which the inheritance passes. Not having anything to do with the flesh or genetics but according to God's chosen son.
the fact that paul calls them children of Hagar is proof of itself that God does not consider anyone who is outside of Christ to be a Jew but actually consider them to be a Gentile.this is what made the gospel so difficult for them to accept. Because they had pride in the flesh and they were being told that the flesh doesn't count for anything and does not seal them children of Abraham or Jews.
As I said, I understand your perspective, but I disagree.
Quote from: Tom on November 08, 2014, 01:15:04 AM
As I said, I understand your perspective, but I disagree.
:friendstu:
IMO, Jews according to the flesh, but without faith in Christ, still are the recipients of certain gracious promises given by God to natural Israel, "For all Israel shall be saved". For the moment, they are enemies of the gospel, but God is reconciling His enemies and even Esau and Ishmael are still inheritors, though their inheritance is waiting on the backside of kolassis(correction) in this age and to some extent as far as I can tell also in the age to come.
Unfaithed Jews have been pruned from the olive tree as I read Paul in Romans, but they can be grafted back in again by grace through faith. Abraham is the root of the olive tree.
Gal 3:6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore,be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer........ 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
The root is now the faith of Abraham, and it is in Christ Jesus, for the olive tree, and there is neither Jew or Gentile in Christ Jesus but a new creation. "Neither circumcision or uncircumcision is anything but a new creation."(Gal 6:15)
Many Jews who think they are still in the olive tree are not(imo) and many Christians who think they are in the olive tree also are not, because God knows those who are His and many will hear the words, "Depart from me I never knew you" because faith in Jesus involves Lordship- not just mental assent to His having existed and being alive, as James said, "You believe God is One? The devils believe also and tremble".
:2c:
Lordship, imo, is about yielding to the divine nature as branches in the True Vine.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."
The only way to abstain from wickedness is to walk in the Spirit.
If you would like to read my debate on this..................this is the thread that I took the OP from.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1548411
wild and wooly :o)
Is the law of liberty different from the Mosaic law?
James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons , ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said , Do not commit adultery , said also, Do not kill . Now if thou commit no adultery , yet if thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye , and so do , as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Quote from: ed on November 08, 2014, 05:43:21 PM
Is the law of liberty different from the Mosaic law?
James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons , ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said , Do not commit adultery , said also, Do not kill . Now if thou commit no adultery , yet if thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye , and so do , as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Hi Ed , the law of liberty in Christ , we cannot abuse or stumble anyone where ever they are at in the faith
weak , small , poor , rich etc and still in sin , if you are free from sin and yes this is possible with God , I believe its being consciously aware all the time of sin and not free from it yet
some are still under the old covenant of moses and are under the water baptism [1st the washing of the water of the word and its temporary , it makes you more aware of sin and need for repentance as we notice sin increasing , lawlessness no laws and no obedience to any law
and the need for laws to bring death and a reality for the man of sin to be done away with in Christ
to me and this is just me Christ brings the HOLY SPIRIT and Fire baptism keeping the man of sin in a world of hurt destroying those things melting those elements by the breath of His coming sweeping the house , you are the temple of the Loving Living God , while the new man , new creature in Christ keeps the law this one is without sin[new heavens mind of Christ and new earth body of Christ] and the Fire and Light of Gods presence are dwelling within , the assembling in the Body of Christ Christ is also the head of the church, which is his body. ... And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead and are new and alive in Christ the seed /Word is living with in you
everything that come out of Christ will go back into Christ , the man of sin is dealt with as Jesus comes to cleanse and claim His rightful place the throne of your own heart this seat / 1 Thess 5
we cannot judge or will be judged if that man of sin within us starts to accuse the brothers &sister in the faith till the man of sin is taken out of the way
all is the process and perfect work of God , we are only here for a very short time in these clay vessels , when the rods of Iron[rods of correction ] begin to break the clay in shattered pieces and burst open the true natures of both the evil one being exposed and the holy one also we can begin to see [tree of knowledge of good and evil] just what has been going on for a long , long time , before us and during and long after , the vessels of wrath are always fitted for destruction to be remade into something new and useful to the LORD and His purpose
This will make sense to only some and will not ever make sense to those still being processed by the mighty works of God
we wait on the Lord
8 This royal law [C because God the king decreed it, or because it is the supreme law] is found in the Scriptures: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself [Lev. 19:18; Matt. 22:37–40]."
·If you [or If you really; or If you, however,] ·obey [fulfill; carry out] this law, you are doing ·right [well].
9 But if you ·treat one person as being more important than another [show favoritism/partiality; 2:1], you are sinning. You are ·guilty of breaking God's law [L convicted by the law as lawbreakers/ transgressors].
10 [L For] A person who ·follows [keeps; obeys] all of God's law but ·fails to obey even one command [L stumbles/falls in one point] is guilty of breaking all the commands in that law.
11 [L For] The same God who said, "You must not ·be guilty of [commit] adultery [Ex. 20:14; Deut. 5:18]," also said, "You must not murder anyone [Ex. 20:13; Deut. 5:17]." So if you do not ·take part in [commit] adultery but you murder someone, ·you are guilty of breaking all of God's law [L you have become a breaker/transgressor of the law; Matt. 5:18–19; Gal. 5:3].
12 ·In everything you say and do, remember that you [L So speak and so act as those who] will be judged by the law ·that makes people free [L of freedom/liberty]. 13 ·So you must show mercy to others, or God will not show mercy to you when he judges you [L For judgment is without mercy to the one who does not act mercifully]. ·But the person who shows mercy can stand without fear at the judgment [L But mercy triumphs over judgment].
Yes. The law of liberty is the law transcendent love for God and man that comes by the Spirit and generates good attitudes and good works that magnify Jesus and glorify God. "It is the "new commandment".
IMO, It is the key to the salvation of all.
"Behold i make all things new"
"If any man be in Christ Jesus he is a new creation, old things pass away, behold all things become new." 2 Cor 5:17
"For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered(liberated/set free) from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now." Ro 8:19-22
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". Eph 2:4-10
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34, 35
This process of the reconciliation and restoration of all is converting the whole creation from hostility and futility into loving God and one another from the heart. That is the perfect law of liberty- love, honor, and faithfulness generated out of a freely given love for God. It is you "in Christ" and "Christ in you, the hope of glory".
To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Col 1:27
Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:
"Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband."
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
Those who are in Christ have died unto the law and made alive unto Christ.
If you think marching into the throne room and demanding,
that God do what you tell him to do is a Sin
Then every time you relate to God through the Law that is exactly what you are doing.
If you think that sounds evil imagine what it smells like.
Yes you would literally be stinking up the throne room.
If God showed you what you looked like through the eyes of the law you would die of embarrassment.
Grace and mercy a contrite heart are a sweet aroma.
We are a new creation with new sight lines.
We see brother and sister as sweet.
Quote from: ed on November 08, 2014, 05:43:21 PM
Is the law of liberty different from the Mosaic law?
James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons , ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said , Do not commit adultery , said also, Do not kill . Now if thou commit no adultery , yet if thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye , and so do , as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
I think James is writing to those under the law, which we are not, but "love your associate as yourself," which Paul says fulfills the entire law, is actually found in the law (see the attachment). I don't think the "Mosaic law" could be called "liberty" by any stretch of the imagination. I think the law was given to the Jews to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice and to show them they couldn't save themselves, but Paul calls it "the yoke of slavery."
"the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God" (Romans 8:21)
"where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom" (2 Corinthians 3:17)
"For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery." (Galatians 5:1)
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: ed on November 08, 2014, 05:43:21 PM
Is the law of liberty different from the Mosaic law?
James 2
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:9 But if ye have respect to persons , ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said , Do not commit adultery , said also, Do not kill . Now if thou commit no adultery , yet if thou kill , thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye , and so do , as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
He is definitely referencing the Mosaic Law, no question about it. But, I think the context is showing how that the Law was hung upon love, as Christ said.
James 1
19 This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; 20 for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility
receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. 22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
James was clear that the implanted word is what saves our souls, from "filthiness and all that remains of wickedness," the word being written on our hearts by the Spirit. So, it's not following the letter that saves. James is pointing out that the "implanted word" ought to result in bringing us into natural conformity with the love upon which the Law was hung upon.
It's very similar to what Paul said and notice how similar the language is:
Romans 2
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law
do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
It's the same message. Walking in love ought to become a matter of instinct for those who have had the word implanted in their inward parts. So, even without the law, they walk in such a way that conforms to the law of liberty, freedom from sin.
This is what it means that he who loves has fulfilled the whole Law:
Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law,
will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? In other words, if we love our neighbor, God regards that we have kept all the law, circumcision, tithing, Sabbath, hand washing etc. Those things are regarded by a God to be wrapped up in one which is to love. Circumcision is of the heart. Sabbath is of the heart. Washing is of the heart etc.
James may have been speaking to those under the law(but I think he was speaking to ALL who would read his words), but IMO he was not equating the law with the perfect law of liberty, which transcends the law. For this reason he uses the "royal law" as Jesus did, to explain how ALL the law is fulfilled in the prefect law of liberty, which is the royal law, love, and is fulfilled by the Spirit.
This is the same as Paul speaking of the "fruit of the Spirit" to the Galatians, who were being seduced back into lawkeeping for righteousness, saying "Against such(the fruit of the Spirit, there is NO LAW)
Ro. 5:5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Yeah, I was in a group that taught that same thing.
What do you renew your mind to?
Romans 12
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
They taught that you renewed your mind to the Word of God. It is a good teaching, but it is not talking about the written word of God.
If the written word was God's desire for us, then we go back to be lawyers and such, and we judge one another continually.
Breaking the law is deeper then the written law as well. Breaking the law of love is higher then breaking the Mosaic written law. It is disobedience to the very Spirit of God.
Be not conformed to this world is set in opposite to what we are to be conformed to. We renew our minds to the kingdom of heaven that is present in the moment. It is higher then following a written law.
If sin is breaking the law, we are no longer talking about the written law, but the law of liberty and the law of love the law of the Spirit.
Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles, and nowhere in all of Paul's writings does Paul tell us to follow the Mosaic law.
Following the Mosaic law is the Old Testament. Sin was breaking that law in the Old testament.
Following Christ is the New Testament. It is higher and deeper and better then the old. That is why the Old IS replaced.
This is great turmoil for those who don't want to change. The turmoil is what Jesus was talking about in the Book of Matthew. The kingdom of God was taken from the House of Israel, and given to the Christ from the House of Israel.
At this present moment we gentiles are not be following what was taken away, we are to be in the present reign, the body and bride of Christ.
The Mosaic law is the Old Testament.
The Law of Christ, liberty, and love is the New Testament.
New Testament believers are not following the Mosaic law, and we are not intentionally sinning. For The New Testament believer Following Christ in His present reign is our desire and what we renew our mind to.
First off not all sin in the OT required the death Penalty.
The first sinner was Cain. "sin is at the door, but you must master it". Cain sinned, Cain did not master it, Cain lived on to a ripe old age.
Second, all of your trying to put the New Testament church under the Old Testament law is not what Paul was preaching. Paul never tells us to follow the Mosaic law, not once ever.
Sin in the Old Testament is violation of the Mosaic law.
Sin in the New Testament is not following Christ.
As long as you continue to preach the Old Testament, you remain under its curse, you remain in death...........it is dead.
We follow the Spirit of the new testament, and this is where life is, this is what we renew our minds to, and this is how we remain "IN HIM".
Disciples of Christ are not in the business of sinning at will. Disciples of Christ are not under the Old Testament Law.
Not the Mosaic law Brasso. The Mosaic law is the Old Testament. Nowhere in the New Testament are we instructed to follow it or be under it. It is a hard thing to loose your religion. I see your struggle. Lay down your heavy burden and put yourself in the place of rest, in Jesus Christ.
That is the New Testament.
Judaism against the world. The struggle. The loosing of the religion. The replacing of the Old with the New.
:lifeandpeace:
QuoteFollowing the Mosaic law is the Old Testament. Sin was breaking that law in the Old testament.
Jesus went to be baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness , this was to show us humility and repentance [fruits ] of the good in the Law
Make the tree good and its fruit good or make the tree corrupt [evil] a tree is known by its fruits
the Law to me knowledge , It is the tree of'' knowledge'' of good and evil , how we react to understanding this knowledge , this is how we learn to hate evil Psalms 93
this is fulfilled in Christ according to the Law
9For You are the LORD Most High over all the earth; You are exalted far above all gods.
10Hate evil, you who love the LORD, Who preserves the souls of His godly ones; He delivers them from the hand of the wicked.
11
Light is sown like seed for the righteous And gladness for the upright in heart. now the new expounding on the Old
Romans 12:9 ASV
Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
Quote from: ed on November 09, 2014, 06:30:45 PM
At this present moment we gentiles are not be following what was taken away, we are to be in the present reign, the body and bride of Christ.
"Now you are the body of Christ, and members of a part, whom also God, indeed, placed in the ecclesia, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, thereupon powers, thereupon graces of healing, supports, pilotage, species of languages." (1 Corinthians 12:27,28)
"And one of the seven messengers who have the seven bowls brimming with the last seven calamities came, and he speaks with me, saying, "Hither! I shall be showing you the bride, the wife of the Lambkin." And he carries me away, in spirit, on a mountain, huge and high, and shows me the holy city, Jerusalem, as it is descending out of heaven from God, having the glory from God." (Revelation 21:9,10)
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreTheBrideAndBodyIdentical1.html
http://concordant.org/expohtml/CorrectPartitioning/AreWeTheBrideOfTheLamb.html
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
Hey Bro D ,
That is the cool part , when you hate evil
Do you want evil done to you ? so in loving your neighbor your really saying I don't want him to treat me bad so I will not treat him badly
I have always thought its not fair to say your neighbor in the literal physical sense of the guy across the street
so much as it is to say your spiritual inner man , The Word says clean the inside first
so your brother or guy inside needs to be treated as descent as the ol outer first born man of the flesh right ?
He is in charge till the new inner spiritual man
grows in enough truth and grace to be in charge
Its something I have thought of before and its
when Jesus was asked by a guy who wanted to justify himself '' who is your neighbor '' ?
and the parable of one whom a robber and thief was mistreated
Jesus speaks of the strong man of the house too
both are examples to me of the battle between the carnal nature man and spiritual nature new man in Christ
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
How could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, be a problem?
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
Hi Seth and Daj
Because the
spiritual man is the only one that can keep the law :winkgrin:
Roman s 8 ...6For the mind set on the flesh is death,
but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, [Mind of Christ]
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;
for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh
cannot please God. 1 John 3 19
...8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin,
because he is born of God. 10
By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
How could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, be a problem?
It wasn't a problem, for God himself said "they have become like us in knowing good and evil." It was the disobedience that was the problem.
Quote from: rosered on November 09, 2014, 11:36:54 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
Hi Seth and Daj
Because the spiritual man is the only one that can keep the law :winkgrin:
Roman s 8 ...6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, [Mind of Christ]
7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God;
for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
1 John 3 19
...8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him;
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious
anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
:iagree:
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 11:43:46 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
How could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, be a problem?
It wasn't a problem, for God himself said "they have become like us in knowing good and evil." It was the disobedience that was the problem.
The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."The problem 23 So the LORD God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.24 He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden
to guard the way to the tree of life.
Should we judge others as we judge ourselves.
The natural man does not ever keep the law
its the spiritual man that does
seeing the Christ in you and your IN your brother ..
some not born of God are really not your brother
Consider Luke 16 the Children of Light are not as shrewd/clever /crafty as the children of this world /age when it come to being wise in dealing with their own kind !!!
thus the warning be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves
Luke 16:8Expanded Bible (EXB)
8 So, the master praised the ·dishonest [unrighteous; unjust] manager for being ·clever [shrewd; prudent].
Yes, ·worldly people [L the children of this age] are more ·clever [shrewd; prudent] with their own ·kind [contemporaries; generation] than ·spiritual people [L the children of light] are.
5 "So the manager called in everyone who owed the master any money. He asked the first one, 'How much do you owe [L my master]?' 6 He answered, 'Eight hundred gallons [C Greek: one hundred batoi; a batos was about eight gallons] of olive oil.' The manager said to him, 'Take your bill, sit down quickly, and write ·four hundred gallons [Greek: fifty (batoi)].' 7 Then the manager asked another one, 'How much do you owe?' He answered, '·One thousand bushels [Greek: one hundred koroi; a koros was about ten bushels] of wheat.' Then the manager said to him, 'Take your bill and write eight hundred bushels [C Greek: eighty (koroi)].' 8 So, the master praised the ·dishonest [unrighteous; unjust] manager for being ·clever [shrewd; prudent]. Yes, ·worldly people [L the children of this age] are more ·clever [shrewd; prudent] with their own ·kind [contemporaries; generation] than ·spiritual people [L the children of light] are.
9 "I tell you, make friends for yourselves using ·worldly riches [L the mammon/wealth of unrighteousness] so that when those riches ·are gone [fail; run out], you will be welcomed in ·those homes that continue forever [eternal dwellings/tents; C God's presence]. 10 Whoever ·can be trusted [is faithful] with a little ·can also be trusted [is also faithful] with a lot, and whoever is ·dishonest [unjust] with a little is ·dishonest [unjust] with a lot.\
11 If [L therefore] you ·cannot be trusted [have not been faithful] with ·worldly riches [L unrighteous mammon], then who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you ·cannot be trusted [have not been faithful] with things that belong to someone else, who will give you things of your own?
13 "No servant can serve two ·masters [lords]. [L For] The servant will hate one master and love the other, or will ·follow [be devoted/loyal to] one master and ·refuse to follow [despise] the other. You cannot serve both God and ·worldly riches [money; L mammon]."
God's Law Cannot Be Changed
14 The Pharisees, who loved money, were listening to all these things and ·made fun of [derided; ridiculed] Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You ·make yourselves look good [justify yourselves] in front of people, but God knows what is really in your hearts. What is ·important to [exalted/esteemed by] people is ·hateful [detestable; an abomination] in God's sight.
16 "The law of Moses and the writings of the prophets [C the Old Testament] ·were preached [or were in force; L were] until John [C the Baptist] came [3:1–20; C John is the transitional figure between the age of promise and the age of salvation]. Since then the ·Good News [Gospel] about the kingdom of God is being ·told [preached; proclaimed], and everyone ·tries to enter it by force [or is eager to get into it; or is strongly urged to enter it]. 17 It would be easier for heaven and earth to ·pass away [disappear] than for ·the smallest part [L one stroke] of a letter in the law to ·be changed [drop out; Matt. 5:18; 11:12–13].[/b]
For me the true test comes though the Law of Moses to even be able to come to Christ !
Is this not the way everyone Jew or Gentile goes though first ?
Does not death come first from the letter of the Law ?
the body is dead because of sin and you must realize this first before Faith In Christ COMES though the Spirit ,
'
could this be the narrow path that lead to LIFE /CHRIST ? tree of Life
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 12:07:36 AM
Should we judge others as we judge ourselves.
the natural man brother !! is not born of God yet is still condemned with the world
1Corinth 11 ...3
1But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32
But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. 33So then, my brethren,
when you come together to eat, wait for one another. when we eat His body and drink His Blood that we may have Life in us we wait on one another to come to the same place [Christ in our midst ]
He does the correcting with whom ever is being unruly children
You ever baby sit for children of all ages and stages ?
come feeding time its a mess none knows their place and they all want to be waited on first and fuss and act out when they are not being dealt with
we took the 15 month old to the store a bit ago and when he was not getting his way he rebelled and acted up terribly
what did we do ?
we asked him to not be like that, with a stare and voice that has a tone that was not pleasing and he relented /decreased
Just as the Law as John the baptist whom represents the Law and prophets in the SPIRIT OF ELIJAH said I must decrease and the Lord Jesus must increase , grace abounds the more
we left the store with a good boy quiet and humbled , the law was in effect but it was grace that prevailed prove more powerful than opposing forces and persuaded
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:57:46 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 11:43:46 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
How could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, be a problem?
It wasn't a problem, for God himself said "they have become like us in knowing good and evil." It was the disobedience that was the problem.
The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."The problem 23 So the LORD God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.24 He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
The problem wasn't with knowledge, but disobedience. If the problem was the knowledge itself, God himself would die for he had the same knowledge.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 12:07:36 AM
Should we judge others as we judge ourselves.
Having knowledge of the Law does not necessitate being judgemental brother.
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 12:43:56 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:57:46 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 11:43:46 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 11:33:35 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 09, 2014, 10:47:17 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 09, 2014, 07:38:30 PM
To me the biggest problem with the Law,
is the effect my knowledge of the Law
has on my ability to Love my neighbor.
I could know my neighbor was a Law breaker.
Especially if I know more about the Law than I do about my neighbor.
Most of us are not Spiritual enough to be able to Love our neighbor,
while hating that he breaks the Law.
It is hard to hate evil and Love our neighbor when the Law makes them one.
To me, that makes the Law the problem rather than man. But Paul says in Romans 7 that the Law is holy and good. Therefore, the real problem has never been with the Law but with man. If man uses the Law to judge his neighbor, I see that as a continual problem with the carnal nature within him, not the Law itself. For as Paul said,
2 Tim 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
If that is the case, then how could having knowledge of the Law be the problem in itself?
How could the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, be a problem?
It wasn't a problem, for God himself said "they have become like us in knowing good and evil." It was the disobedience that was the problem.
The LORD God said, "Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."The problem 23 So the LORD God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken.24 He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.
The problem wasn't with knowledge, but disobedience. If the problem was the knowledge itself, God himself would die for he had the same knowledge.
Of coarse
God would not die .
He was not evil he was Good he was not disobedient and he had the knowledge of being Good.
It was the
knowledge of disobedience (the Law).
If man ate from the tree of Life he would have been forever separated from God.
Man would have the knowledge of his disobedience and therefore could never be one with God .
It was the knowledge of Man's disobedience that must be wiped from the mind of Man. (erased)
Faith in the knowledge that we have been made righteous.
We are dead to our relationship with the Law.
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 02:24:18 AM
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
For me , the Knowledge comes and goes though the experiences of the Law being in effect , its force changes us temporarily
like being dipped in water does after a bath you feel better for a time
but its not life changing like being born again is , and was not offered till the fullness of time had come by Gods plan [revealing of Jesus Christ] from night to Day
this only comes though Jesus Christ , the law of Moses was the shadow of the good things to come
the shadow is a covering , God made sure the sins would not be counted against any in the shadow of ignorance
He winked at it up to the Time of Jesus Christ and Him crucified [ the change of covenants ] ACTS 17 declares it , Paul whom was Saul and killed many new born babes in Christ /Christians thinking in ignorance he was doing God a service , getting rid of all these new and unknown following / religion and this new one that goes against the very traditions of men !!
death reigned from Adam till Moses than the Law of God reigned
very few true prophets were called out of the world over the course of time /age from Moses to Jesus Christ and all were considered mad and totally against the gods they worshiped as many were deceived in the masses /seas of humanity all ignorant and in the dark and still had no light , but the moon /shadows , they saw something but not clearly
God winked at the ignorance 29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that
the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31
because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." the DAY IS JESUS CHRIST
Many sons of God
The True One would come though , be born from the dead , this one of a kind SON OF GOD in one Day ! Christ is that One Day
and the new covenant being established in the earth ... this is the promises of God all was waiting for that had the faith of the shadow /moon Law of Moses to look forward too and would inherit all things .. Jesus Christ is all things
all come out of Him and all will be brought back into Him to be given to the FATHER COMPLETE /WHOLE and entire without end and without lack
LIFE IN TOTAL COMPLETION ''' SPIRIT&TRUTH ''' these two things will be all in all :flowerred:
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 02:24:18 AM
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience.
God said as far as the east is from the west I will remember no more. Again, not the problem.
Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience.
Jesus Christ himself knew of his obedience to the cross. Not the problem.
If wasn't a problem why was he sweating blood?
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
Sin in the flesh is not a problem when the flesh is dead.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
A person filled with the holy spirit does not need instruction or correction.
God can only be worshiped
in Spirit .
Once again I will say in my opinion you cannot
have a relationship with God through the Law.
You will always disconnect yourself or should I say the line goes dead.
Your end goes dead, your phone is obsolete.
The Law is not connected to anything.
Quote from: rosered on November 10, 2014, 03:22:54 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 02:24:18 AM
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
For me , the Knowledge comes and goes though the experiences of the Law being in effect , its force changes us temporarily
like being dipped in water does after a bath you feel better for a time
but its not life changing like being born again is , and was not offered till the fullness of time had come by Gods plan [revealing of Jesus Christ] from night to Day
this only comes though Jesus Christ , the law of Moses was the shadow of the good things to come
the shadow is a covering , God made sure the sins would not be counted against any in the shadow of ignorance
He winked at it up to the Time of Jesus Christ and Him crucified [ the change of covenants ] ACTS 17 declares it , Paul whom was Saul and killed many new born babes in Christ /Christians thinking in ignorance he was doing God a service , getting rid of all these new and unknown following / religion and this new one that goes against the very traditions of men !!
death reigned from Adam till Moses than the Law of God reigned
very few true prophets were called out of the world over the course of time /age from Moses to Jesus Christ and all were considered mad and totally against the gods they worshiped as many were deceived in the masses /seas of humanity all ignorant and in the dark and still had no light , but the moon /shadows , they saw something but not clearly
God winked at the ignorance 29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." the DAY IS JESUS CHRIST
Many sons of God The True One would come though , be born from the dead , this one of a kind SON OF GOD in one Day ! Christ is that One Day
and the new covenant being established in the earth ... this is the promises of God all was waiting for that had the faith of the shadow /moon Law of Moses to look forward too and would inherit all things .. Jesus Christ is all things
all come out of Him and all will be brought back into Him to be given to the FATHER COMPLETE /WHOLE and entire without end and without lack
LIFE IN TOTAL COMPLETION "' SPIRIT&TRUTH "' these two things will be all in all :flowerred:
:iagree:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 02:24:18 AM
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience.
God said as far as the east is from the west I will remember no more.
In reference to past sins forgiven. I can show you a plethora of scripture that show that God is keenly aware of man's disobedience, when he tramples on the Son of God and counts the blood of the covenant a common thing.
QuoteAgain, not the problem.
Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience.
Jesus Christ himself knew of his obedience to the cross.
Not the problem. If wasn't a problem why was he sweating blood?
"Not a problem" in the sense that knowing man's disobedience was not a negative trait for him, nor did it make him judgmental that he knows the Law.
QuoteSin in the flesh is the problem.
Sin in the flesh is not a problem when the flesh is dead.
Which demonstrates that knowledge of the Law is not a problem, but the sin in the flesh is the problem....when the flesh is alive. When the flesh is dead, one may know the Law and still not be judgmental and legalistic toward his brother.
QuoteA person filled with the holy spirit does not need instruction or correction.
God can only be worshiped in Spirit .
Once again I will say in my opinion you cannot
have a relationship with God through the Law.
You are changing your argument. You began by saying that knowledge of the Law was the problem, and now you are saying that you cannot have a relationship with God through the Law. I agree with the latter, but I still disagree with the former.
The problem has never been with the Law itself but with man's carnal nature. People who have the Holy Spirit still need instruction,
which is why the epistles were written. they were written to people who had the Holy Spirit, weren't they?
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 07:23:58 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 07:12:57 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 02:24:18 AM
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience. Again, not the problem. Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience. Not the problem.
Sin in the flesh is the problem.
PAUL TELLS US THAT ALL SCRIPTURE IS VALUABLE FOR CORRECTION AND INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.
That's pointless for him to say if knowledge of the Law is the problem.
God himself had knowledge of man's disobedience.
God said as far as the east is from the west I will remember no more.
In reference to past sins forgiven. I can show you a plethora of scripture that show that God is keenly aware of man's disobedience, when he tramples on the Son of God and counts the blood of the covenant a common thing.
The best way for man to trample on the Son of God and count the blood of the covenant a common thing is to reinsert the Law.
Gal 5;4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
[/size]
QuoteAgain, not the problem.
Jesus Christ himself knew of man's disobedience.
Jesus Christ himself knew of his obedience to the cross.
Not the problem. If wasn't a problem why was he sweating blood?
"Not a problem" in the sense that knowing man's disobedience was not a negative trait for him, nor did it make him judgmental that he knows the Law.
Why did he say my God my God why have you forsaken me?
QuoteSin in the flesh is the problem.
Sin in the flesh is not a problem when the flesh is dead.
Which demonstrates that knowledge of the Law is not a problem, but the sin in the flesh is the problem. When the flesh is dead, one may know the Law and still not be judgmental and legalistic toward his brother.
If your flesh is dead you have no use of the Law.
Erase your knowledge of the Law and replace it with the knowledge of Christ and him crucified.
[/size]
QuoteA person filled with the holy spirit does not need instruction or correction.
God can only be worshiped in Spirit .
Once again I will say in my opinion you cannot
have a relationship with God through the Law.
You are changing your argument. You began by saying that knowledge of the Law was the problem, and now you are saying that you cannot have a relationship with God through the Law. I agree with the latter, but I still disagree with the former.
If it does not enhance your relationship with God then what use is it.
It has no use other than huff and puff.[/size]
The problem has never been with the Law itself but with man's carnal nature. People who have the Holy Spirit still need instruction, which is why the epistles were written. they were written to people who had the Holy Spirit, weren't they?
[color=green]Can you have the Holy Spirit and a carnal nature?[/color]
QuoteIf your flesh is dead you have no use of the Law.
Erase your knowledge of the Law and replace it with the knowledge of Christ and him crucified.
There is no need to erase knowledge. Ignorance is not the key.
Romans 7
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Paul identifies the problem being sin, not the Law. The Law is holy, just and good, and that which is holy just and good does not need to have knowledge of it erased.
QuoteThe best way for man to trample on the Son of God and count the blood of the covenant a common thing is to reinsert the Law.
Gal 5;4 You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.
You are conflating two separate issues. Nobody is saying we have to live by the Law. But having knowledge of the Law is not a barrier to living and walking by the Spirit. Such ignorance is not necessary.
QuoteIf it does not enhance your relationship with God then what use is it.
It has no use other than huff and puff.
Since the Apostles used the Law and Prophets to teach about Christ and the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if they were true, I can conclude that knowledge of the scripture can indeed enhance our relationship. The scripture is not "huff and puff" brother. I would be a bit less irreverent when it comes to the scripture. Calling it "huff and puff" is pretty derisive.
QuoteCan you have the Holy Spirit and a carnal nature?
Of course.
Since the Apostles used the Law and Prophets to teach about Christ and the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if they were true, I can conclude that knowledge of the scripture can indeed enhance our relationship. The scripture is not "huff and puff" brother. I would be a bit less irreverent when it comes to the scripture. Calling it "huff and puff" is pretty derisive.
Thank you for the sincerity of your warning :rolllol:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 08:12:06 PM
Since the Apostles used the Law and Prophets to teach about Christ and the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if they were true, I can conclude that knowledge of the scripture can indeed enhance our relationship. The scripture is not "huff and puff" brother. I would be a bit less irreverent when it comes to the scripture. Calling it "huff and puff" is pretty derisive.
Thank you for the sincerity of your warning :rolllol:
Go ahead and laugh...
If it does not enhance your relationship with God then what use is it.
It has no use other than huff and puff.[/size]
Calling( does not enhance your relationship with God)Scripture
And then warn me is laughable. :eek:
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 08:16:29 PM
If it does not enhance your relationship with God then what use is it.
It has no use other than huff and puff.[/size]
Calling( does not enhance your relationship with God)Scripture
And then warn me is laughable. :eek:
First, I didn't warn you. I made a suggestion.
Second, you stated that the problem is with the Law itself. I have simply showed you that the problem never was with the Law. Then you said that we ought to erase our knowledge of the Law your reasoning being that it does not enhance our relationship with God, calling it huff and puff. I believe that is derisive.
Sincerity is required for an honest exchange of ideas.
I'm out you win
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 08:20:59 PM
Sincerity is required for an honest exchange of ideas.
I'm out you win
If I am being insincere, prove it. :dontknow:
That will be difficult since you are not me. It is a baseless allegation. I am being completely sincere.
It's sad when the conversation turns from the issue to a personal attack.
Quote from: Seth on November 10, 2014, 08:23:24 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 10, 2014, 08:20:59 PM
Sincerity is required for an honest exchange of ideas.
I'm out you win
If I am being insincere, prove it. :dontknow:
That will be difficult since you are not me. It is a baseless allegation. I am being completely sincere.
It's sad when the conversation turns from the issue to a personal attack.
I am out
I am out of sincerity.
What I really wanted to say to you would be mocking.
The scripture is not "huff and puff" brother.
I would be a bit less irreverent when it comes to the scripture. Calling it "huff and puff" is pretty derisive.
I (Seth) would be a bit less irreverent(than Dale)
Seth says he is less irreverent than Dale.
when it comes to the scripture.
Seth accuses Dale of calling scripture huff and puff.
The very definition of being derisive.
I am sincerely out
No where in my posts do I call scripture huff and puff.
Calling it "huff and puff" is pretty derisive.
QuoteSeth accuses Dale of calling scripture huff and puff.
The very definition of being derisive.
I am sincerely out
No where in my posts do I call scripture huff and puff.
If we need to erase our knowledge of the Law, then we would need to erase our knowledge of the scripture.
Exodus 20
17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
That's scripture and it's the Law. The Law was WRITTEN in the scripture. If I erase my knowledge of the Law, I would by necessity need to erase my knowledge of the scripture.
The letter is the same as
the scripture. So, saying it has no use other than huff and puff is derisive to scripture in my opinion.
:hijacked:
Chill dudes. I'm gonna lock this up for a day or too.