What is Ezekiel talking about?

[dajomaco]

 I thought or may-be assumed we were in agreement that
we were talking about one kingdom

[Seth]

Maybe I misunderstood you.

[Seth]

I'm talking about Jewish believers and Gentile believers.

[dajomaco]

The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.

:iagree:

One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application,

I was agreeing with this.

[Tom]

I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.

[Seth]

The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.

:iagree:

One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application,

I was agreeing with this.

I agree. You'd have to read the whole conversation to know why I misunderstood.

[Seth]

I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.

I believe they are the same because I don't believe there are inheritances of reign distinguished by race. I think all the saints shall do all things together as one.

Because we see "Israel" in Revelation does not mean it's referring to the flesh.

[dajomaco]

The Jew and the Gentile must accept Jesus as Lord to enter the kingdom.
But before the Jew can accept he must reject Moses. The difference.

[Tom]

I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.

I believe they are the same because I don't believe there are inheritances of reign distinguished by race. I think all the saints shall do all things together as one.

Because we see "Israel" in Revelation does not mean it's referring to the flesh.

I understand your position, brother, but, despite the fact that all believers are in "the kingdom of God" and it is in them, I don't see it that way as I don't see "the body of Christ" and "the bride of the lamb" as the same. We agree that all believers are one in Christ, but there are different interpretations regarding what it seems is indicated about Israel and the nations. I think those chosen and called out of the nations to be "the body of Christ" during eonian time will be ministering in the celestial realm while the Jewish people will be ministering in "the kingdom of the heavens" in Jerusalem on planet earth subjecting the nations. It seems God has given each specific tasks during eonian life. Then at the consummation of the eons all power on earth will be nullified, and scripture doesn't say what happens after that except that all will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God, and God will be "all in all," which should be sufficient information for us. We will probably never agree on our interpretation of scripture on some things because I think I tend to interpret some things a little more literally than you do, but we can still share the bond we have in the holy spirit. I don't think everybody needs to agree on everything to fellowship because we all have different perspectives in life and about scripture. I think we can discuss our various viewpoints intelligently and in love even if we disagree sometimes. There seems to be much debate among believers especially about the end times, Revelation, and how much is literal or figurative involving those things and scripture in general. I don't get upset if somebody doesn't see things my way, and I never intend to offend when I share a different perspective. So I hope anybody who reads my humble opinions knows that they are just that with no claim of authority. Likewise I consider only the word of God to be the authority and realize there are as many interpretations of it as there are believers.

[Seth]

No disagreement about the fact that we are believers talking about what we believe. No offense is taken at anytime about that.

We probably also have a disagreement about what "eonian life" is. I actually see it as spiritual life in Christ today and onward rather than a future period of life only.

Anyway, I believe Paul says that the saints shall judge the world, and angels, and that the heart circumcised Gentile will judge the heart uncircumcised Jew.

The reason I think he says that is because all judgement is conferred to Christ who is the single seed of Abraham and in him is no differentiation according to the flesh.

[eaglesway]

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 

Jesus said he was speaking in parables "mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world". Paul referred frequently to the "mystery of the gospel".

To me the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the heavens are the same and only kingdom, which is the coming all in all of God. In this age, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation", leading to the "whole creation eagerly awaits the unveiling of the sons of God" who will set the whole creation "free from futility" by gathering all into Christ in the ages to come.

But this is an "administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times. pleroma is the same word used in "For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross" and "For in Him dwells all the fulness(pleroma) of Deity in bodily form."

Meaning, imo, it is one gospel not fulfilled until all the ages are complete/ all time fulfilled.

These ages to come are referred to in the original gospel proclaimed by Peter at Pentecost in the beginning.

Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time(olam/aionios).

And this is the gospel Peter received at the mouth of the Lord and Paul as well.

IMO all the overcomers of all the ages will participate in this one gospel, as Paul said, "They labored and we have entered into their labors" and "They foresaw that they could not be complete without us".

The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you."

"This is the inheritance of those who seek your face, Selah"

"In Him we have also received an inheritance according to His purpose" this purpose just having been stated as the "anakephalaiomai"- the gathering together of all into one in Christ.

Looking at 1 Cor 15, and Hebrews 1 and 2, we also see the kingdom expressed as Christ enthroned until every adversary is subjected, which is the gathering into one- the "conversion" if you will, of all things into oneness with God.

"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout all ages" Ro 11:36

[Tom]

No disagreement about the fact that we are believers talking about what we believe. No offense is taken at anytime about that.

We probably also have a disagreement about what "eonian life" is. I actually see it as spiritual life in Christ today and onward rather than a future period of life only.

Anyway, I believe Paul says that the saints shall judge the world, and angels, and that the heart circumcised Gentile will judge the heart uncircumcised Jew.

The reason I think he says that is because all judgement is conferred to Christ who is the single seed of Abraham and in him is no differentiation according to the flesh.

I agree that we are experiencing "eonian life" now in a sense because we are living during the eons, but I think those words usually refer to the last two eons when we will be beyond death which is what a lot of folks call "eternal life."

http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html

[Tom]

I also agree that the saints will judge the world and messengers (1 Corinthians 6:2,3), and those of us who will be snatched away to meet the Lord in the air will always be with him (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

[Seth]

When I take a look at the Biblical definitions of the phrase "aionios zoe" here is what I find:

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

When I see those definitions, I don't believe they are talking about being physically alive during a specific future eon, but that they speak to receiving the Holy Spirit in ANY eon.

From what I see, "aionios zoe" is 1) the love of God, 2) WITHIN 3) Something we are able to pass into away from death in sin today by way of loving our brothers 4) That we may know him 5) that we are in Him

Now, I believe this applies to future generations, but each one of those definitions applies primarily to the Pentacost experience of every believer, not relegated "primarily" to the future. For as Paul said "Today is the day of salvation."

[eaglesway]

I believe the Bride and the body are just different ways of expressing the same thing.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.

I see this expressed also in hebrews 12

2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

and Eph 1

2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Vine, the tabernacle of living stones, a habitation of God in the spirit, the city of God, the bride, the body are all analogous perspectives on one thing imo.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb......
......22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

To me this is a picture of Hebrews 12, the gates "Lift up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors"...,the foundation stones......Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever"......

"And we all as living stones, Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone, are being built into a habitation of God in the spirit"

I do believe that each of these images expresses particular aspects of the whole that may differentiate to some extent, but all of these images were used by the prophets in the OT and Jesus and the apostles in the NT alike, of the people of God.

[Seth]

 :iagree:

My little girl likes the "banana buddy" so here he is:  :banana:

[Tom]

When I take a look at the Biblical definitions of the phrase "aionios zoe" here is what I find:

1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?

John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.

When I see those definitions, I don't believe they are talking about being physically alive during a specific future eon, but that they speak to receiving the Holy Spirit in ANY eon.

From what I see, "aionios zoe" is 1) the love of God, 2) WITHIN 3) Something we are able to pass into away from death in sin today by way of loving our brothers 4) That we may know him 5) that we are in Him

Now, I believe this applies to future generations, but each one of those definitions applies primarily to the Pentacost experience of every believer, not relegated "primarily" to the future. For as Paul said "Today is the day of salvation."

I think we do receive the blessing of "life eonian" at this time just as we are a "new creation" at this time, but I think this is one time I'm thinking more figuratively because I think we aren't literally yet because we aren't yet immortalized in spiritual bodies just as those who are figuratively dead aren't literally dead.

[eaglesway]

LOL I like the banana buddy too LOL

:banana:

[Tom]

I believe the Bride and the body are just different ways of expressing the same thing.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.

I see this expressed also in hebrews 12

2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

and Eph 1

2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Vine, the tabernacle of living stones, a habitation of God in the spirit, the city of God, the bride, the body are all analogous perspectives on one thing imo.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb......
......22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

To me this is a picture of Hebrews 12, the gates "Lift up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors"...,the foundation stones......Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever"......

"And we all as living stones, Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone, are being built into a habitation of God in the spirit"

I do believe that each of these images expresses particular aspects of the whole that may differentiate to some extent, but all of these images were used by the prophets in the OT and Jesus and the apostles in the NT alike, of the people of God.

I think we are the body of Christ and new Jerusalem is the bride of the lamb (Revelation 21:2,9,10).

[Seth]

I think we do receive the blessing of "life eonian" at this time just as we are a "new creation" at this time, but I think this is one time I'm thinking more figuratively because I think we aren't literally yet because we aren't yet immortalized in spiritual bodies just as those who are figuratively dead aren't literally dead.

And this is probably another way we see through the prism in a different way. I actually think that aionios life and immortality are not the same thing, but are linked. I see aionios life as a deposit available now unto a future glorification by which immortality will be added to our life in Christ.

I primarily think of "aionios zoe" as the implanted love of God by the Spirit, and that immortality is the doing away of any further physical death.  :HeartThrob:

LOL I like the banana buddy too LOL

:banana:

:laughing7:

[Tom]

I agree with what you're saying except I would say given not "available."

[Seth]

I agree with what you're saying except I would say given not "available."

:iagree:

I just mean we don't have to wait until a future time to receive it. But I agree, it is given according to election.

[Tom]

I think I already said I agree that we have it and are a new creation now.

[Seth]

Yes, but I think we take aionios life to be a different thing. Alive now could mean physically alive or metaphysically alive (dead to sin). I take it as the latter.  :HeartThrob:

[Tom]

Yes, but I think we take aionios life to be a different thing. Alive now could mean physically alive or metaphysically alive (dead to sin). I take it as the latter.  :HeartThrob:

I don't go for the "metaphysically" alive or dead. I prefer figuratively or literally alive or dead because I do not believe spirit dies, and I think I have already agreed we have life eonian now.