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Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Eze 43:13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.
Eze 43:14 And from the bottom upon the ground even to the lower settle shall be two cubits, and the breadth one cubit; and from the lesser settle even to the greater settle shall be four cubits, and the breadth one cubit.
Eze 43:15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.
Eze 43:16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.
Eze 43:17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.
Eze 43:18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
Eze 43:19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze 43:20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
Eze 43:21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze 43:22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze 43:23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
Eze 43:24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Eze 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze 43:26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
Eze 43:27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.
Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.
Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.
Is Ezekiel still a future prophesy for Israel?
Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.
Is there a future blessing for Israel on earth, or is the Kingdom now firmly a Spiritual Jerusalem?
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Matthew 21:43
"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
I agree. I think it's a prophecy about Christ, who is Israel. I believe Israel has been wiped off the face of the earth and is now heavenly.
I believe God has paused in his dealing with Israel until all those who are chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and then is when the book of Revelation kicks in which describes the future kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem ruled by Christ.
I don't believe there will ever be any kingdom chosen according to the flesh.
I also agree with the guys here
when you read Hebrews 9,10 of the new covenant " in Christ" and ONE of the main reasons for the Cross of Jesus Christ [the LAMB OF GOD ] and bringing in the new EVERYTHING , BY GODS OWN SPIRIT &TRUTH ,
inheritance according to the PROMISE OF GOD
and ask the questions , "what exactly are the new creatures in Christ ?" what do they look like ? , what is their purpose ?
and why is it no man can see them ?
are they here now? and in what way do they come ?
Paul hit upon it some
Being a new creature in Christ has passed from death to Life in Christ and the new heavens and earth has begun by the SPIRIT &TRUTH and HOLY worship in the narrow path of following Christ and bearing His Image , name and birthright for the inheritance of all things new and perfect that has come ,, and the natural man has no part of and can never see nor hear or ever have the heart to understand the wisdom of GOD
2 Cor 5 ;17 We are Christ's Ambassadors
...16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;
even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation
Testator one who has made a will or given a legacy.
The Old Agreement
9 The first ·agreement [covenant; contract; C given to Israel through Moses; 8:7, 13] had ·rules [regulations; requirements] for worship and a ·place on earth for worship [L earthly sanctuary/holy place]. 2 The ·Holy Tent [T Tabernacle; Ex. 25:8–9; 26:1] was ·set up [constructed; prepared] for this. The first area in the Tent was called the Holy Place. In it were the lampstand [Ex. 25:31–39] and the table [Ex. 25:23–30] with the ·bread that was made holy for God [consecrated bread; bread of presentation/offering; Ex. 25:30; Lev. 24:5–8].
3 Behind the second curtain was a ·room [section; L tent] called the ·Most Holy Place [T Holy of Holies; Ex. 26:31–34]. 4 In it was a golden altar for burning incense [Lev. 16:12–13] and the ·Ark [box; chest] ·that held the old agreement [L of the covenant/contract; Ex. 25:10; 26:33], covered [L completely; on all sides] with gold. Inside this Ark was a golden jar of manna [Ex. 16:33–34], Aaron's rod that once grew leaves [Num. 17:1–11], and the stone tablets of the ·old agreement [covenant; contract; Ex. 25:16; 40:20; Deut. 10:2]. 5 Above the Ark were the ·creatures that showed God's glory [or glorious cherubim; Ex. 25:18–22; C angelic beings representing God's presence and glory; Gen. 3:24; Ezek. 9:3; 10:1–22], ·whose wings reached over [L overshadowing] the ·lid [mercy seat; atonement cover; Lev. 16:2]. But we cannot ·tell everything about [discuss in detail] these things now.
6 When everything was made ready in this way, the priests went into the ·first room [outer room; L first tent] ·every day [regularly] to ·worship [serve; minister; perform their priestly duties; Num. 28:3]. 7 But only the high priest could go into the ·second room [inner room; L second one], and he did that only once a year [Ex. 30:10; Lev. 16:15, 34].
He could never enter the inner room without taking blood [C from the sacrificial animal] with him, which he offered to God for himself and for sins the people did ·without knowing they did them [unintentionally; in ignorance].
8 The Holy Spirit uses this to show that the way into the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] ·was not open [or had not yet been revealed] while the ·system of the old Holy Tent [or outer room of the Tabernacle; L first tent/Tabernacle] was still ·being used [in place; standing]. 9 This is an ·example [illustration; symbol] for the present time. It shows that the gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the conscience of the worshiper ·perfect [clear; pure].
10 These gifts and sacrifices were only about food and drink and special [ceremonial; ritual] washings. They were ·rules for the body [or external regulations], ·to be followed [in force; applying] until the time of God's ·new way [reformation; new order].
oddly enough , the eating and drinking and given in marriage is when Christ returns[Days of Noah ] and Paul said the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking , but peace and joy and the Holy Spirit ^ above verses
The New Agreement
11 But when Christ came as the high priest of the good things ·we now have[a] [L that have come], he entered the greater and more perfect ·tent [T tabernacle]. It is not made ·by humans [L with hands] and does not belong to this ·world [creation; created order].
12 Christ entered the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] ·only once—and for all time [L once for all; 7:27; 10:10]. ·He did not take with him [L ...not by means of] the blood of goats and calves. ·His sacrifice was [L ...but by means of] his own blood, and by it he ·set us free from sin forever [L obtained/secured eternal redemption/liberation].
13 The blood of goats and bulls [Lev. 16:14–16] and the ashes of a ·cow [young cow; heifer; Num. 19:2, 17–18] are sprinkled on the people who are [C ritually] unclean, and this ·makes their bodies clean again [restores their body to ritual purity].
14 How much more is done by the blood of Christ. He offered himself through the eternal ·Spirit [or spirit; C most likely the Holy Spirit, though possibly Christ's own eternal spirit, or as a "spiritual" and eternal sacrifice] as a ·perfect [unblemished] sacrifice to God. His blood [C signifying his sacrificial death] will make our consciences ·pure [cleansed] from ·useless acts [or acts that lead to death; L dead works; 6:1] so we may ·serve [worship; offer priestly service for] the living God.
15 For this reason Christ ·brings a new agreement from God to his people [L is the mediator of a new covenant/contract]. Those who are called by God can now receive the eternal ·blessings [inheritance] he has promised. They can have those things because Christ died to ·set them free [redeem them] from the ·sins [transgressions; violations] committed under the first agreement [covenant; contract].
16 When there is a ·will [last will and testament; C the same Greek word translated "agreement" in v.
15; the author develops his illustration from the various meanings of the word], it must be proven that the one who wrote that ·will [last will and testament] is dead.
17 [L For; Because] A ·will [last will and testament] ·means nothing [carries no force] while the person is alive; it can ·be used [take effect] only after the person dies. 18 This is why even the first ·agreement [covenant; contract; C the same Greek word as "will" in vv. 16–17] could not ·begin [be inaugurated/put into effect] without blood [C the death of a sacrificial animal]. [/color
]19 First, Moses told all the people every command in the law. Next he took the blood of calves and mixed it with water. Then he used ·red [scarlet] wool and a branch of the hyssop plant to sprinkle it on the book of the law and on all the people.
20 He said, "This is the blood ·that begins [that seals/confirms; L of] the ·Agreement [Covenant; Contract] that God commanded you to ·obey [keep; Ex. 24:8]." 21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the ·Holy Tent [T Tabernacle] and over all the ·things [vessels; utensils] used in worship. 22 The law says that almost everything must be ·made clean [purified; cleansed] by blood, and sins cannot be forgiven without ·blood to show death [the shedding of blood; C signifying death to pay the penalty of sin].
Christ's Death Takes Away Sins
23 So the ·copies [symbols; models; prototypes] of the real things in heaven had to be ·made clean [purified; cleansed] by animal sacrifices. But the real things in heaven need much better sacrifices.
24 [L For] Christ did not go into ·the Most Holy Place [a sanctuary; L holy things] made by ·humans [L hands], which is only a ·copy [model; or prefiguration] of the real one. He went into heaven itself and ·is there [appears] now ·before [in the presence of] God ·to help us [for us; on our behalf].
25 The high priest enters the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] once every year with blood that is not his own. But Christ did not offer himself many times. 26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world]. But Christ ·came [appeared] ·only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10] at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all [nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself.
27 Just as ·everyone [L people] ·must [is/are destined/appointed to] die once and ·then be judged [T after this the judgment], 28 so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to ·take away [bear] the sins of many people [Is. 53:12]. And he will ·come [appear] a second time, not to offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. :thumbsup:
Footnotes:
Hebrews 9:11 good ... have Some Greek copies read "good things that are to come."
Hebrews 9:19 calves Some Greek copies read "calves and goats."
could this be any plainer ? more simple ? more perfect than explained ?
Sounds like a now thing to me and saying this by faith in the Will /testament of God and not some other age , unless we miss the mark or any one born of the Spirit and truth being a new creature in Christ /anointing of that same High calling , called out of the world , yet in it but saved by Grace Jesus same prayer in John 17 comes to mind
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN+17&version=EXB (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN+17&version=EXB)
THIS GLORY , SAME GLORY OF THE FATHER AS THE SON AND THOSE CALLED AND CHOSEN TO GLORIFY IN THE EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN this image bearing of the HOLY ONE
New heavens and earth and kept from the evil one most certainly a very important clue to be made known to those with ears to ear , eyes to see and heart to understand it AS GLORY !!
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 03:56:16 AM
I believe God has paused in his dealing with Israel until all those who are chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and then is when the book of Revelation kicks in which describes the future kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem ruled by Christ.
I think God is never pauzing anything. The ancient Jews were in captivity several times in history. They were ruled by pagan kings. Was God pauzing while His people were in Egypt?
Then there is the passage of the sticks. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms. They once will be both Father's hand again and made one.
Only one kingdom came back from exile. The other never did. Also called the lost tribes. The present day Jews have quite a bit of interest of who where there brother and sisters of the other kingdom/stick are right now. They researched that in several independent ways and it all seems to point to that the other kingdom is in the present day Christian countries.
If you keep looking at those sticks you will see the replacement theology is false. Superiority complex. Racism. Both sticks are different but both have their own unique qualities.
Still looking at the sticks you will find they only will be reunited when there is peace between Israel and it's neighbors. That simple fact rules out the view that all that kingdom stuff is only taking place in heaven. Unless there are muslims in heaven.
There is a lot more to say about those stick but I leave it at this.
:gimmefive:
Anyway what I'm trying to say with the part about the sticks is that if one stick is Christianity He's dealing at least with one stick.
Ezek 37:15-28 (HRB2012)
15 And the Word of YAHWEH was to me,
16 saying, And you, son of man, take one stick to yourself and write on it, For Judah, and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.
17 And draw them one to one for yourself, into one (echad) stick. And they shall become one (echad) in your hand.
18 And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you?
19 Say to them, So says Adonai YAHWEH: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions. And I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and I will make them one stick, and they shall be one (echad) in My hand.
20 And the sticks shall be in your hand, the ones on which you write before their eyes.
21 And say to them, So says Adonai YAHWEH: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one (echad) nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations anymore. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
23 And they will not still be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places where they have sinned in them, and I will cleanse them. So they shall be for a people to Me and I will be for Elohim to them.
24 And My servant, David, shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments and keep My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons, and the sons of their sons, forever. And My servant David shall be a ruler to them forever.
26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant it shall be with them, And I will place them and multiply them, and I will put (Aleph/Tav) My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27 And My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
28 And when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever, the nations shall know that I, YAHWEH, sanctify Israel.
When I said "paused" I meant in the sense that the Jewish hope of the kingdom of the heavens will not happen until a later time. Of course the Father is continuously "dealing with" all of the universe because he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). I think it is the Father's will that Israel is temporarily blinded to the truth about Christ until all those who have been chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and it is then that the Jews will have their kingdom of the heavens.
"God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Romans 1:18)
"For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (Romans 11:25)
Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.
Yes, Bro Seth , the
new creature in Christ / anointing has no earthy ties :thumbsup:
:thumbsup: :dsunny:
I believe the gifts and callings of God are without repentance and there is still a promise working in natural Israel, even as there is a promise still working in natural Ishmael.
I believe God is at work in America and raised it up, -and will also lower it in time. God raised up Egypt and Pharoah and Babylon and Assyria.
I love the verse in revelations.... "The kingdoms of this world are now the kingdoms of our God and His Christ!"
But the abiding Zion and Jerusalem are in the heavenly realms according to Hebrews 12. In Revelations we see them "coming down out of heaven", covered in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints- which to me means manifesting on earth and being revealed to men.
Jesus said, "I am the bread coming down out of heaven". The bread of life manifesting in the earth, revealed to men.
All of natural Israel will be absorbed into heavenly Israel- as will all men.
Psalms 48
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised,
In the city of our God, His holy mountain.
Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion in the far north,
The city of the great King.
God, in her palaces,
Has made Himself known as a stronghold.
For, lo, the kings assembled themselves,
They passed by together.
They saw it, then they were amazed;
They were terrified, they fled in alarm.
Panic seized them there,
Anguish, as of a woman in childbirth.
With the east wind
You break the ships of Tarshish.
As we have heard, so have we seen
In the city of the Lord of hosts, in the city of our God;
God will establish her forever. Selah.
We have thought on Your lovingkindness, O God,
In the midst of Your temple.
As is Your name, O God,
So is Your praise to the ends of the earth;
Your right hand is full of righteousness.
Let Mount Zion be glad,
Let the daughters of Judah rejoice
Because of Your judgments.
Walk about Zion and go around her;
Count her towers;
Consider her ramparts;
Go through her palaces,
That you may tell it to the next generation.
For such is God,
Our God forever and ever;
He will guide us until death.
Psalm 87
His foundation is in the holy mountains.
The Lord loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God. Selah.
"I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"
But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
The Lord will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there." Selah.
Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."
The only gift and calling that was unconditional, and therefore irrevocable, that Paul speaks about was the future salvation of sin for Israel. But, their position in sonship was always based on obedience, and was therefore always revocable. That is the very reason that only those who believe in Christ are sons. That could never be if their sonship was unconditional.
Yet Paul says to the assembled at Mars Hill, "For we are all His children".
I agree that "sonship" in Christ belongs only to those who believe. But God is working on many levels and I think He still holds natural Israel in the crook of His arm.
since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 05:38:58 PM
Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.
Yeah Seth,
The whole thing stinks of flesh motive..................
But still I wonder, what is it to me if God does some sort of kingdom on earth with Isreal?
Seems to be what Ezekiel was saying. What do I care? Does it somehow make me jealous? Can't God do as God pleases? I was arguing against it, but now I am wondering if I have enough information to go on. Agnostic on the matter? Either way fine by me?
:Peace2:
I actually think that Ezekiel is talking about New Jerusalem. I actually believe that the saints will rule on the earth. I don't agree that there are separate kingdoms, one for this race and one for that race. The dividing wall is down.
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 07:04:22 PM
since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.
Absolutely, He has the whole world in His hands for sure. His heart is big enough for ALL. But since the beginning, He has called out some, in different times for different purposes, and I think His purposes are still being demonstrated on natural Israel, whom Paul said, were "Beloved for the sake of the patriarchs", and for having kept "the oracles of God" even tho they are "enemies of the gospel".
Yea, I think all the verses posted in this thread find there ultimate fulfillment in the tabernacle of God, which began with Israel, then moved to the body of Christ, and will eventually incorporate all, when God is all in all.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2014, 07:15:02 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 07:04:22 PM
since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.
Absolutely, He has the whole world in His hands for sure. His heart is big enough for ALL. But since the beginning, He has called out some, in different times for different purposes, and I think His purposes are still being demonstrated on natural Israel, whom Paul said, were "Beloved for the sake of the patriarchs", and for having kept "the oracles of God" even tho they are "enemies of the gospel".
I definitely agree. And I think God is planning a special thing for them as the glorious final act to bring them in and complete the salvation of all. This whole separation thing is only a way to get everyone saved in a special order. Their rejection as branches was so Christ would be killed and resurrected, given to the Gentiles then back to the Jews. It's definitely not because he doesn't love them.
Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations; and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.
"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)
"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)
"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)
But later in Galatians it also says...
"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)
And Colossians says...
"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)
So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.
"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)
That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.
response to Seths last post
Exactly. "Making them jealous" as the fulness of the gentiles is brought in, a partial hardening resulting in mercy for the Gentiles.
15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
Interesting in Romans 11 that Paul clearly shows the root of the salvation of all is Israel. And the discourse ends celebrating the salvation of all.
They were to be the Lampstand, but the Lampstand has passed to the wild branches for a time, but it will eventually pass to the "one new man" composed of Jews and Gentiles, a nation of priests, who will, with Messiah, gather all into one so that God becomes ALL IN ALL.
In the tabernacle, in the outer court, there are multitudes of sacrifices for sin. Then into the holy place, a submission of the will(washing, yield your bodies) and the beginnings of revelation(Lampstand) and fellowship(table of presence bread)-
Then before the curtain the golden altar of incense, where the spotless lamb was offered, all these things revealing the tabernacle in the heavens where the souls beneath the altar cry out "How long O Lord" and the incense of there prayer of intercession rises up amid thunders and lightnings until eventually -THE VEIL IN THE HEAVENS IS ROLLED BACK LIKE A SCROLL and as it is written in Isaiah- "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers all the people"
I see this as wheels within wheels. Christ and the two anointed ones the innermost wheel, then the 24 elders surrounding the throne, then the souls beneath the altar(if you can see it, working your way out from the throne- or the mercy seat between the wings of the cherubim).
It is like the tabernacle is being turned inside out through revelation, each wheel serving the next wheel untill all that is out is drawn in and that which is innermost is poured out into all.
" one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
8 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
10 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things --
Jesus led captivity captive and "ascended" into the innermost and then "poured out" that innermost upon the new tabernacle of living stones at pentecost.
Jesus is eternally(time-transcendently) ascending and always leading captivity captive(the subjection of all adversaries and the reconciling of all into the all in all) and at the same time always "filling all things"-
like a big heavenly updraft drawing all things into the all in all, in the form of a great heavenly vaccuum sucking the new creation out of the chaos(the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the face of the deep" and "light shall shine out of darkness" to reveal the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ".
So while some people worry about the overcomers message being elitist and exclusive- it is really that the innermost wheels serve the outer. The high priest the servant of all, and His disciples, those who serve as He does and all that "service" flowing out as love and the light of revelation until all are drawn into the innermost and the innermost is poured out into all.
That to me is the signifigance of the verses in Ezekiel and also Psalm 48 "Walk about Zion, go round about her, tell the towers thereof, mark ye well her bulwarks and consider her palaces, that you may tell it to the generation to come."
We measure the foundations and the fittings so that in our generation we do our part to open the portal always wider so that that which is hidden may be revealed and all that is darkness can be drawn into the light.
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 07:37:44 PM
Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations, and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.
"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)
"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)
"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)
But later in Galatians it also says...
"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)
And Colossians says...
"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)
So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.
"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)
That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.
Wonderful, edifying post!
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 07:37:44 PM
Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations, and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.
"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)
"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)
"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)
But later in Galatians it also says...
"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)
And Colossians says...
"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)
So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.
"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)
That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.
While I agree that the ultimate reconciliation of man shall occur, I don't believe that there ever was a difference in
content toward any race concerning the a Gospel. To me, "evangel of the circumcision" is like saying "the vanilla ice cream of the circumcision." The ice cream comes from the same source and is the same stuff, but one set of Apostles takes it to one group, while the others take it to another group. I don't believe that the Jewish believers were ever ordered to maintain the Law as mixed with Grace, but that all believers were under the same grace.
Comparing James to Paul:
Titus 2:11
11For the
grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12instructing (paiduo - chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
James 1
21 So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.
Both James and Paul talked about the healing from sin according to an inward manifestation of the Word. I don't believe any of it had to do with following the letter for Jewish believers, and grace alone for Gentiles. I believe both were under Titus 2:11 grace alone (no letter) at all times.
The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.
Application does not mean mixing grace with law in my opinion. The law is always a ministration of death, for both Jew or Gentile.
I agree, there is no mixture of law in the gospel of Jesus Christ. it is the revelation of the grace of God and the only law is the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, which is the perfect law of liberty, love.
Quote from: ed on November 03, 2014, 12:43:18 AM
Quote
...Is there a future blessing for Israel on earth, or is the Kingdom now firmly a Spiritual Jerusalem?
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Matthew 21:43
"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Paul, as we know said Israel fell away so the gentile nations (non-Israel) could be grafted in.. he also said "if their falling away is salvation, what shall their gathering (back in) be? but life from the dead" which i figure is a reference to life from the dead as the resurrection at Jesus' return.. how Paul wrote, they who are alive (and remain) at the time, will no proceed the dead in Christ, but the dead will rise, and those who are his and are alive and remain shall meet the Lord in the air (at his coming) and so shall we all ever be with the Lord..
Zechariah 14:4 says his feet touch down on Mt of Olives (from where He left, Acts 1:19? "He shall return just as you have seen Him go..")
In the Book of Rev of course is the reference to the twelve tribes of Israel being sealed on their forehead just prior to some big event which i believe is the signal of an escalation of eschatology/end time events and prophecy.. There's the numbering 12,000 from 12 tribes, then there's a great crowd too huge to number, from all nations, tribes and tongues.. gentile nations (non-Israel) (some think this is a literal view in the heavens, but what it says is "were sealed on their forehead" (100% clarity? to go with the seal on their heart? when saved?) ...there's another 'scene' in Rev where 144,000 are said to be 'seen' on Mt Zion.. but it is to Mt Olives He returns to..
Then of course is the measuring in Rev 21, that the New Jerusalem is shown as descending to the Earth and covers Israel and plus, lots of plus.. I've always assumed the New Earth will have the "chosen land" of israel and then some as the capital, a new jersusalem
----------------
Also when Jesus wept over Jerusalem, He said "Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. you shall not see me again until you say 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD'...." And I think the last verses of Rev 12 also refer to Israel (as "the rest of her seed", "she" Or "her" portrayed as having twelve stars around her head, imo, Israel then Christendom/the faith) "the dragon turns his attention to the rest of her seed, who have the commandments of God and (by then?) hold to the testimony of Jesus" - "and the armies of the world were gathered to Harmegeddon"-Rev 16:14-16 (which cannot, imo, be 70 a.d. Rev being written about 90 a.d.)
..it's my belief the prophets are full of references of blessings of Israel in the Kingdom age..
Just did a google, and am now reading this page - http://kingwatch.co.nz/Times_Seasons/israel_blessing.htm haven't looked to see who wrote yet or anything..
- this quote from it -
"God's promise to Israel is most clearly stated in Romans 11. Paul says that although the Jews have stumbled, they did not fall beyond recovery (v.11). He promises that the time will come when Israel is reconciled to the Lord and grafted back into his olive tree. So the Lord promises that all Israel will be saved (v. 26)."
- reminds me how I think Israel is a microcosm of the whole of humanity.. wandered from god, under His 'wrath'/nonlife or leading to nonlife, dragon's wrath, then gathered to God - All Israel/all humanity will be saved..
It's my belief Jesus said to Thomas, touch my side and hands (wounds) and see I am not a ghost.. And also Jesus ate after His resurrection.. "We shall be like Him" I believe includes having a body, not disembodied spirits as much of the church seems to believe(?) spiritual only, but a new earth and universe / paradise un-breakable, is what I believe God is creating.. "each one under their vine and fruit tree" - "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow".. [Micah 3:4 & Is 11:7]
"It is sown a corruptible body, it is raised an incorruptible" (body).. 1 Cor 15:42
I'm terribly behind in this thread, sorry :smile: :pointlaugh:
Zechariah 14
Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!
6 In that day there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light.
8 And in that day living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.
Here is my view on that scripture. I believe it is beginning with physical Jerusalem and ending with New Jerusalem. When his feet stand on the mount of Olives, notice what happens: it creates a valley so that the rest of Jerusalem's inhabitants flee the city through a valley. The other half are exiled. So the culmination of the judgment is that Jerusalem is left completely empty. In Ezekiel, God says that he will send a famine and the sword and that is how Jerusalem will be judged. I believe that speaks to the word of God and lacking of the true bread, who is Christ.
When I see the imagery of God's people fleeing through a valley parted by God's power, I am reminded of another scripture that speaks about how God parted the Red Sea so that they could escape Egypt. Revelation says that The Lord was crucified in Sodom and Egypt.
God always said he was going to to completely destroy Jerusalem but leave behind a remnant, which Paul identifies himself as being in Romans 11. And it is after the Zechariah remnant flee through he parted mountains that God describes the city of New Jerusalem, having neither day or night for there shall be no moon or sun, and the living waters that flow from the city.
At one point Paul thought himself a part of a remnant, a remainder of a judgment. And he applied that teaching to the fact that the rest of Israel has been blinded and cut off and was reassuring people that God has not abandoned Israel because he promised to leave behind a remnant. That remnant was to rebuild Jerusalem, David's tent.
Isaiah 56
6 "Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples."
8 The Lord God, who gathers the dispersed of Israel, declares,
"Yet others I will gather to them, to those already gathered."
I see New Jerusalem all over that scripture. I see the Sabbath being Christ himself.
What I believe the prophets declare is that Jerusalem would be removed from the earth, and that a remnant would escape and survive (not be blinded) and that New Jerusalem would to be built using a that remnant to add the Gentiles to Israel.
That is why, I believe, that the prophets prophecied until John the Baptist, because Christ was to come fulfill the prophets with himself, that he would create Israel as the single seed of Abraham, having cut off the other branches, and then graft the remnant to the true tree on Pentecost to begin the Isaiah 56 process of bringing the Gentiles into the land which is heavenly.
I kind of like chocolate ice cream, but I think the evangel for today is clear.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:20:10 PM
I kind of like chocolate ice cream, but I think the evangel for today is clear.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
I think that evangel has been the same since the beginning for everyone. By Grace we are healed from the carnal mind, not by works of the Law. But grace teaches us to live godly lives. Nobody, in my opinion was ever admonished to continue works of the law,
That is why Ephesians 2 says:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions,
made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),Not a work of the law but of the Spirit...causing us to be those who FORMERLY walked in sin. That was always a word for both Jews and Gentiles to share alike the same union with Christ unto salvation from sin.
QuoteI see New Jerusalem all over that scripture. I see the Sabbath being Christ himself.
What I believe the prophets declare is that Jerusalem would be removed from the earth, and that a remnant would escape and survive (not be blinded) and that New Jerusalem would to be built using a that remnant to add the Gentiles to Israel.
That is why, I believe, that the prophets prophecied until John the Baptist, because Christ was to come fulfill the prophets with himself, that he would create Israel as the single seed of Abraham, having cut off the other branches, and then graft the remnant to the true tree on Pentecost to begin the Isaiah 56 process of bringing the Gentiles into the land which is heavenly.
:2thumbs: Another , so do I bro ! :flowerred:
I see the blinded with the veil over the face of Moses of
those still under the law and not born again yet , making the new creature in Christ or inner man
Israel is the inner man of the heart circumcision of the heart = removing the flesh
I believe a lot of things are happening right under of noses as only the Spirit and those of the Holy Spirit being the teacher can ever know for certain
when Jesus warned'' tell no man'' , it was because they would only hinder and we are under the same warning
no man knows in my opinion the wording is day and hour , why say day and hour as if they both come at once ? and for whom ?
Matt 24 ;36
36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,
but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
and this is why I believe , its individually or in clusters and not some big bang BOOM expectancy that the world is expecting just my opinion
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 09:26:15 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:20:10 PM
I kind of like chocolate ice cream, but I think the evangel for today is clear.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
I think that evangel has been the same since the beginning for everyone. By Grace we are healed from the carnal mind, not by works of the Law. But grace teaches us to live godly lives. Nobody, in my opinion was ever admonished to continue works of the law,
That is why Ephesians 2 says:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Not a work of the law but of the Spirit...causing us to be those who FORMERLY walked in sin. That was always a word for both Jews and Gentiles to share alike the same union with Christ unto salvation from sin.
yes!!!!! Romans 8
9 But you are not ·ruled by [controlled by; or in] ·your sinful selves [your sinful nature; T the flesh], but ·by [or in] the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But the person who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.
10
Your body ·will always be [L is] dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit ·gives you [L is] life, because ·Christ made you right with God [L of righteousness]. 11 God raised Jesus from the dead, and if God's Spirit is living in you, the One who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies that die, through[c] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 So, my brothers and sisters, we ·must not be ruled by [L are not obligated to] ·our sinful selves [our sinful nature; T the flesh] or live ·the way our sinful selves want [according to the sinful nature/T flesh].
13 [L For] If you ·use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want [L live according to the flesh], you will ·die spiritually [L die]. But if you ·use the Spirit's help to [L by the Spirit] ·stop doing the wrong things you do with [L put to death the deeds of] your body, you will ·have true life [L live].
14
For all those who are led by the Spirit of God are the ·children [or sons] of God. 15 ·The Spirit you received does not make you slaves again to fear [or You did not receive the spirit of slavery, leading to fear]; instead, you received the Spirit ·who adopts you as God's children [L of adoption]. ·With [Through] that Spirit we cry out, "Abba [C Aramaic for "Father"; Mark 14:36], Father."
16 And the Spirit himself ·joins with [or testifies to] our spirits to say we are God's children. 17 If we are God's children, we ·will receive blessings from God together with Christ [L are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ]. ·But we must [L ...if indeed we] ·suffer as Christ suffered [share in his sufferings] so that we ·will have glory as Christ has glory [may share in his glory].
I think the epistle to the Galatians shows that some folks were being pressured to keep the law, but Paul set them straight.
The Jerusalem conference where they agreed to let Paul evangelize the nations without the requirement of the law seems to be another time when folks were being pressured to keep the law.
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:35:53 PM
I think the epistle to the Galatians shows that some folks were being pressured to keep the law, but Paul set them straight.
Yes, that is is correct, because Paul drew a distinction between walking by the letter, and walking by the Spirit.
Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24
Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also [l]walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.
Paul taught against being under the Law because he understood the power of the Spirit.
Quote from: rosered on November 03, 2014, 09:35:00 PM
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 09:26:15 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:20:10 PM
I kind of like chocolate ice cream, but I think the evangel for today is clear.
"For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting." (Ephesians 2:8,9)
I think that evangel has been the same since the beginning for everyone. By Grace we are healed from the carnal mind, not by works of the Law. But grace teaches us to live godly lives. Nobody, in my opinion was ever admonished to continue works of the law,
That is why Ephesians 2 says:
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, [d]indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Not a work of the law but of the Spirit...causing us to be those who FORMERLY walked in sin. That was always a word for both Jews and Gentiles to share alike the same union with Christ unto salvation from sin.
yes!!!!! Romans 8
9 But you are not ·ruled by [controlled by; or in] ·your sinful selves [your sinful nature; T the flesh], but ·by [or in] the Spirit, if that Spirit of God really lives in you. But the person who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.
10 Your body ·will always be [L is] dead because of sin. But if Christ is in you, then the Spirit ·gives you [L is] life, because ·Christ made you right with God [L of righteousness]. 11 God raised Jesus from the dead, and if God's Spirit is living in you, the One who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies that die, through[c] his Spirit who lives in you.
12 So, my brothers and sisters, we ·must not be ruled by [L are not obligated to] ·our sinful selves [our sinful nature; T the flesh] or live ·the way our sinful selves want [according to the sinful nature/T flesh].
13 [L For] If you ·use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selves want [L live according to the flesh], you will ·die spiritually [L die]. But if you ·use the Spirit's help to [L by the Spirit] ·stop doing the wrong things you do with [L put to death the deeds of] your body, you will ·have true life [L live].
14 For all those who are led by the Spirit of God are the ·children [or sons] of God.
15 ·The Spirit you received does not make you slaves again to fear [or You did not receive the spirit of slavery, leading to fear]; instead, you received the Spirit ·who adopts you as God's children [L of adoption]. ·With [Through] that Spirit we cry out, "Abba [C Aramaic for "Father"; Mark 14:36], Father."
16 And the Spirit himself ·joins with [or testifies to] our spirits to say we are God's children. 17 If we are God's children, we ·will receive blessings from God together with Christ [L are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ]. ·But we must [L ...if indeed we] ·suffer as Christ suffered [share in his sufferings] so that we ·will have glory as Christ has glory [may share in his glory].
:dsunny:
I think Paul definitely understood the power of the spirit, but, after he tried to get the Jews to receive the evangel who for the most part rejected it, he was evangelizing folks who had never been subject to the law and insisting that they didn't need to be just because their Jewish brothers still figured they were.
Hi Bro Tom
the law was custom just as the old wine was better they knew it , did not say the kept it just knew it and it was going to be by the Spirit that they could keep it , and that Spirit would be Christ in them that anointing , like a wick to a lamp with oil [ Holy Spirit ] the Light of men John 1 4
...3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it
it was there they just did not recognize it , to me :dontknow:
They may have had it all along yet never took it to heart/ blind to it /Him !!
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:45:29 PM
I think Paul definitely understood the power of the spirit, but, after he tried to get the Jews to receive the evangel who for the most part rejected it, he was evangelizing folks who had never been subject to the law and insisting that they didn't need to be just because their Jewish brothers still figured they were.
But the Jews who rejected the evangel rejected the Spirit. Those who accept the evangel from ANY Apostle were being given the Spirit by which to live. No evangel ever required law keeping, because the evangel is about Spirit receiving, and when that happens, both Jew and Gentile walk in love, not according to the letter, but the Spirit. All the Apostles taught this same thing.
Once the Jews received the Spirit, they didn't need to add anything else to it, but to walk according to the Spirit, just like the Gentiles were doing. They were all unified under one promise and one Gospel of that promise.
I agree, but there were still folks back then trying to put the law on them.
I've got to take care of some biz folks. I'll be back later.
Quote from: Seth on November 03, 2014, 09:49:53 PM
Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2014, 09:45:29 PM
I think Paul definitely understood the power of the spirit, but, after he tried to get the Jews to receive the evangel who for the most part rejected it, he was evangelizing folks who had never been subject to the law and insisting that they didn't need to be just because their Jewish brothers still figured they were.
But the Jews who rejected the evangel rejected the Spirit. Those who accept the evangel from ANY Apostle were being given the Spirit by which to live. No evangel ever required law keeping, because the evangel is about Spirit receiving, and when that happens, both Jew and Gentile walk in love, not according to the letter, but the Spirit. All the Apostles taught this same thing.
To love God first was within them to do so ,,, because they could never love their brother whom they see in the natural
1 John 4 ;20 Love Comes from God
...19
We love, because He first loved us.
20If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother,
he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.
love your brother whom you see trying and doing good
its the age old cain and abel story
God told Cain if you do well will you not also be accepted ?
and here is the warning sin lies at the door but you should master it /rule over it , not allow it to rule over you !!
sin being the evil one or the sinful self serving nature that increases to ungodliness it was anger and jealousy that cause the first brothers to die and to be marked and scattered abroad wandering , like sheep led astray
two marks
mark those whom cause divisions and mark those whom grieve over Jerusalem
we either or agree with God though Jesus Christ where there is no divisions or we are in agreement with the devil and scatter abroad
for me its this simple and truthful , but that is me
I agree
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.
:iagree:
The starting point is the starting point for all eternity.
Once we start walking with the Lord we are all the same.
Where we started is different.
Let look back at a group, the group being Jewish women, in Paul's time.
Paul said there was no difference between male or female in Christ.
To say that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.(in a practical sense )
Is the same as saying there should be as many women leaders as men leading the church.
There's no difference with respect to their unity in Christ and inheritance of the kingdom. In other words, there aren't separate kingdoms based on race. There is one kingdom because that difference is put aside so we can share the kingdom as one.
I think there should be as many women as men leading and walking with the Lord .
At a certain time Paul disagrees with me.
Enough though the holy spirit in planted the idea of no male or female.
Also no Jew or Gentile
Quote from: dajomaco on November 03, 2014, 11:26:01 PM
I think there should be as many women as men leading and walking with the Lord .
At a certain time Paul disagrees with me.
Enough though the holy spirit in planted the idea of no male or female.
Also no Jew or Gentile
That doesn't mean there's a separate kingdom based on gender. We're talking about two different things.
When Paul says that there's neither Jew or Greek, he is talking about the identity of Abraham's seed. Christ is the seed-as-of-one so anyone joined to him is the seed based on Christ's characteristics, not their own. It's like how Isaac was called Abraham's only son, even though Ishmael literally existed. But he still was not counted for the seed. Yes there are literal differentiations between genders but that does not determine who is counted for the seed. There's only one kingdom because there's only one seed which is Christ.
IMO
The gentile is single and when they hear Jesus is available.
They marry him.
The Jew is married (to the Law).
They hear Jesus is available.
They want to remarry but only once the divorce is Legal.
Some Love Jesus so much they marry him anyway.
The majority are still waiting for the divorce to be official in their minds.
Which I believe is an event coming soon. (Their believe)
I thought or may-be assumed we were in agreement that
we were talking about one kingdom
Maybe I misunderstood you.
I'm talking about Jewish believers and Gentile believers.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 03, 2014, 11:15:08 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.
:iagree:
One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application,
I was agreeing with this.
I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.
Quote from: dajomaco on November 04, 2014, 12:10:50 AM
Quote from: dajomaco on November 03, 2014, 11:15:08 PM
Quote from: eaglesway on November 03, 2014, 08:22:54 PM
The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.
:iagree:
One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application,
I was agreeing with this.
I agree. You'd have to read the whole conversation to know why I misunderstood.
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 12:44:55 AM
I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.
I believe they are the same because I don't believe there are inheritances of reign distinguished by race. I think all the saints shall do all things together as one.
Because we see "Israel" in Revelation does not mean it's referring to the flesh.
The Jew and the Gentile must accept Jesus as Lord to enter the kingdom.
But before the Jew can accept he must reject Moses. The difference.
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2014, 12:48:21 AM
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 12:44:55 AM
I agree that all believers are one in Christ which means they all have "the kingdom of God" in common, but I think we need to specify what we're talking about when we're using the word "kingdom" because I believe "the kingdom of God" suggests subjection to the Diety while "the kingdom of the heavens" used in Matthew refers to the eonian kingdom in Israel ruled by Christ that subjects the nations. I realize there are other interpretations of this, but I don't think both kingdoms are the same thing.
I believe they are the same because I don't believe there are inheritances of reign distinguished by race. I think all the saints shall do all things together as one.
Because we see "Israel" in Revelation does not mean it's referring to the flesh.
I understand your position, brother, but, despite the fact that all believers are in "the kingdom of God" and it is in them, I don't see it that way as I don't see "the body of Christ" and "the bride of the lamb" as the same. We agree that all believers are one in Christ, but there are different interpretations regarding what it seems is indicated about Israel and the nations. I think those chosen and called out of the nations to be "the body of Christ" during eonian time will be ministering in the celestial realm while the Jewish people will be ministering in "the kingdom of the heavens" in Jerusalem on planet earth subjecting the nations. It seems God has given each specific tasks during eonian life. Then at the consummation of the eons all power on earth will be nullified, and scripture doesn't say what happens after that except that all will be justified, reconciled, vivified, and subjected to God, and God will be "all in all," which should be sufficient information for us. We will probably never agree on our interpretation of scripture on some things because I think I tend to interpret some things a little more literally than you do, but we can still share the bond we have in the holy spirit. I don't think everybody needs to agree on everything to fellowship because we all have different perspectives in life and about scripture. I think we can discuss our various viewpoints intelligently and in love even if we disagree sometimes. There seems to be much debate among believers especially about the end times, Revelation, and how much is literal or figurative involving those things and scripture in general. I don't get upset if somebody doesn't see things my way, and I never intend to offend when I share a different perspective. So I hope anybody who reads my humble opinions knows that they are just that with no claim of authority. Likewise I consider only the word of God to be the authority and realize there are as many interpretations of it as there are believers.
No disagreement about the fact that we are believers talking about what we believe. No offense is taken at anytime about that.
We probably also have a disagreement about what "eonian life" is. I actually see it as spiritual life in Christ today and onward rather than a future period of life only.
Anyway, I believe Paul says that the saints shall judge the world, and angels, and that the heart circumcised Gentile will judge the heart uncircumcised Jew.
The reason I think he says that is because all judgement is conferred to Christ who is the single seed of Abraham and in him is no differentiation according to the flesh.
In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Jesus said he was speaking in parables "mysteries hidden from the foundation of the world". Paul referred frequently to the "mystery of the gospel".
To me the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the heavens are the same and only kingdom, which is the coming all in all of God. In this age, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation", leading to the "whole creation eagerly awaits the unveiling of the sons of God" who will set the whole creation "free from futility" by gathering all into Christ in the ages to come.
But this is an "administration suitable to the fulness(pleroma) of times. pleroma is the same word used in "For so it pleased the Father for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of His cross" and "For in Him dwells all the fulness(pleroma) of Deity in bodily form."
Meaning, imo, it is one gospel not fulfilled until all the ages are complete/ all time fulfilled.
These ages to come are referred to in the original gospel proclaimed by Peter at Pentecost in the beginning.
Acts 3:20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time(olam/aionios).
And this is the gospel Peter received at the mouth of the Lord and Paul as well.
IMO all the overcomers of all the ages will participate in this one gospel, as Paul said, "They labored and we have entered into their labors" and "They foresaw that they could not be complete without us".
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "All the nations will be blessed in you."
"This is the inheritance of those who seek your face, Selah"
"In Him we have also received an inheritance according to His purpose" this purpose just having been stated as the "anakephalaiomai"- the gathering together of all into one in Christ.
Looking at 1 Cor 15, and Hebrews 1 and 2, we also see the kingdom expressed as Christ enthroned until every adversary is subjected, which is the gathering into one- the "conversion" if you will, of all things into oneness with God.
"For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glory throughout all ages" Ro 11:36
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2014, 01:36:09 AM
No disagreement about the fact that we are believers talking about what we believe. No offense is taken at anytime about that.
We probably also have a disagreement about what "eonian life" is. I actually see it as spiritual life in Christ today and onward rather than a future period of life only.
Anyway, I believe Paul says that the saints shall judge the world, and angels, and that the heart circumcised Gentile will judge the heart uncircumcised Jew.
The reason I think he says that is because all judgement is conferred to Christ who is the single seed of Abraham and in him is no differentiation according to the flesh.
I agree that we are experiencing "eonian life" now in a sense because we are living during the eons, but I think those words usually refer to the last two eons when we will be beyond death which is what a lot of folks call "eternal life."
http://www.saviourofall.org/charts/ChartOfJudgments.html
I also agree that the saints will judge the world and messengers (1 Corinthians 6:2,3), and those of us who will be snatched away to meet the Lord in the air will always be with him (1 Thessalonians 4:17).
When I take a look at the Biblical definitions of the phrase "aionios zoe" here is what I find:
1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?
John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.
When I see those definitions, I don't believe they are talking about being physically alive during a specific future eon, but that they speak to receiving the Holy Spirit in ANY eon.
From what I see, "aionios zoe" is 1) the love of God, 2) WITHIN 3) Something we are able to pass into away from death in sin today by way of loving our brothers 4) That we may know him 5) that we are in Him
Now, I believe this applies to future generations, but each one of those definitions applies primarily to the Pentacost experience of every believer, not relegated "primarily" to the future. For as Paul said "Today is the day of salvation."
I believe the Bride and the body are just different ways of expressing the same thing.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.
I see this expressed also in hebrews 12
2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
and Eph 1
2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Vine, the tabernacle of living stones, a habitation of God in the spirit, the city of God, the bride, the body are all analogous perspectives on one thing imo.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb......
......22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
To me this is a picture of Hebrews 12, the gates "Lift up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors"...,the foundation stones......Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever"......
"And we all as living stones, Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone, are being built into a habitation of God in the spirit"
I do believe that each of these images expresses particular aspects of the whole that may differentiate to some extent, but all of these images were used by the prophets in the OT and Jesus and the apostles in the NT alike, of the people of God.
:iagree:
My little girl likes the "banana buddy" so here he is: :banana:
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2014, 02:38:52 AM
When I take a look at the Biblical definitions of the phrase "aionios zoe" here is what I find:
1 John 3:14-17
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has aionios life IN HIM. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be IN him?
John 17:3
And this is life aionios: that they might know you, the one true God, and Him whom You did send, Jesus Christ.
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and aionios-life.
When I see those definitions, I don't believe they are talking about being physically alive during a specific future eon, but that they speak to receiving the Holy Spirit in ANY eon.
From what I see, "aionios zoe" is 1) the love of God, 2) WITHIN 3) Something we are able to pass into away from death in sin today by way of loving our brothers 4) That we may know him 5) that we are in Him
Now, I believe this applies to future generations, but each one of those definitions applies primarily to the Pentacost experience of every believer, not relegated "primarily" to the future. For as Paul said "Today is the day of salvation."
I think we do receive the blessing of "life eonian" at this time just as we are a "new creation" at this time, but I think this is one time I'm thinking more figuratively because I think we aren't literally yet because we aren't yet immortalized in spiritual bodies just as those who are figuratively dead aren't literally dead.
LOL I like the banana buddy too LOL
:banana:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2014, 02:48:50 AM
I believe the Bride and the body are just different ways of expressing the same thing.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. 24 But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that He might present to Himself the church [q]in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless. 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies.
I see this expressed also in hebrews 12
2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
and Eph 1
2 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Vine, the tabernacle of living stones, a habitation of God in the spirit, the city of God, the bride, the body are all analogous perspectives on one thing imo.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her [h]brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb......
......22 I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
To me this is a picture of Hebrews 12, the gates "Lift up ye gates and be lifted up ye everlasting doors"...,the foundation stones......Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever"......
"And we all as living stones, Christ Jesus being the chief cornerstone, are being built into a habitation of God in the spirit"
I do believe that each of these images expresses particular aspects of the whole that may differentiate to some extent, but all of these images were used by the prophets in the OT and Jesus and the apostles in the NT alike, of the people of God.
I think we are the body of Christ and new Jerusalem is the bride of the lamb (Revelation 21:2,9,10).
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 02:59:11 AM
I think we do receive the blessing of "life eonian" at this time just as we are a "new creation" at this time, but I think this is one time I'm thinking more figuratively because I think we aren't literally yet because we aren't yet immortalized in spiritual bodies just as those who are figuratively dead aren't literally dead.
And this is probably another way we see through the prism in a different way. I actually think that aionios life and immortality are not the same thing, but are linked. I see aionios life as a deposit available now unto a future glorification by which immortality will be added to our life in Christ.
I primarily think of "aionios zoe" as the implanted love of God by the Spirit, and that immortality is the doing away of any further physical death. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2014, 03:00:07 AM
LOL I like the banana buddy too LOL
:banana:
:laughing7:
I agree with what you're saying except I would say given not "available."
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 03:31:20 AM
I agree with what you're saying except I would say given not "available."
:iagree:
I just mean we don't have to wait until a future time to receive it. But I agree, it is given according to election.
I think I already said I agree that we have it and are a new creation now.
Yes, but I think we take aionios life to be a different thing. Alive now could mean physically alive or metaphysically alive (dead to sin). I take it as the latter. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on November 04, 2014, 04:26:15 AM
Yes, but I think we take aionios life to be a different thing. Alive now could mean physically alive or metaphysically alive (dead to sin). I take it as the latter. :HeartThrob:
I don't go for the "metaphysically" alive or dead. I prefer figuratively or literally alive or dead because I do not believe spirit dies, and I think I have already agreed we have life eonian now.
I don't believe the spirit dies either. But metaphysical refers to "beyond the physical." When the body dies we go unconscious (my belief). But the manner in which someone is dead in sin while physically alive is metaphysical death because it is not referring to the physical. That's just what I call it. I think all the definitions of aionios life are speaking about life from the dead in terms of loving our brothers and being free from sin. I personally don't go for "literal death" vs "figurative death." I refer to it as "physical death" vs "metaphysical death." That's just my own approach to the dual understanding of death taught in scripture.
I say toe MAY toe, and you say toe MAH toe.
Quote from: Tom on November 04, 2014, 04:39:55 AM
I say toe MAY toe, and you say toe MAH toe.
But lets not call this off: :friendstu:
OK, lets call it on as long as there's no quibbling.
It's been interesting, bro, but I think I'm out of here for the night.
:thumbsup: peace, brother
quib·ble
"the only quibble about this book is the price"
synonyms: criticism, objection, complaint, protest, argument, exception, grumble, grouse, cavil; More
2.
archaic
a play on words; a pun.
verb
verb: quibble; 3rd person present: quibbles; past tense: quibbled; past participle: quibbled; gerund or present participle: quibbling
1.
argue or raise objections about a trivial matter.
"they are always quibbling about the amount they are prepared to pay"
synonyms: object to, find fault with, complain about, cavil at; More
Origin
early 17th century (in the sense 'play on words, pun'): diminutive of obsolete quib 'a petty objection,' probably from Latin quibus, dative and ablative plural of qui, quae, quod 'who, what, which,' frequently used in legal documents and so associated with subtle distinctions or verbal niceties.