The unpardonable Sin is one hell of a Sin

[dajomaco]

I have been told that the spirit teaching me that there is no hell,
that there is no place of eternal torment, is the spirit of anti-Christ.

This guy is either right or wrong.

If he is wrong and he most certainly is.
(the spirit within me witnesses the wrong).

He is claiming the works of the Holy Spirit to be anti-Christ.
The unpardonable sin can only be committed by those who believe in Hell.

  what fellowship can light have with darkness?

If you have hell as part of your creed

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.


Hell is darkness

[Tom]

I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons, but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).

[dajomaco]

I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons,

I believe it was a miracle of the Holy Spirit who clearly showed me there is no hell.
ETrs say the spirit that showed you there is no hell is Beezeboul chief of the demons.

Has the ETr committed the unpardonable sin?

but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).

[Tom]

I don't think I would call it a miracle, but I also believe I was guided by holy spirit when I was mysteriously bounced from a die hard KJV site to one about universal reconciliation. I first thought it was just a strange coincidence as I've been told about when I was compelled to look in the drawer beside a hospital bed and found nothing but a Gideon Bible. I think mystical experiences happen to lots of folks in various ways, and those who are spiritually discerning eventually recognize what's up. I think the miracles Jesus performed were in a different class though because they were obvious visual phenomena that were mind blowing to all who saw them, and I think they were meant to show the power of God. So the folks who claimed they were being performed by the power of the chief of demons weren't just doubting Jesus. They were insulting God. That's why it was called an unpardonable sin, but even the folks guilty of that will eventually be reconciled with God at the consummation of the eons. I think folks now who are deceived by church doctrine about torture in fire forever are simply misinformed, but may even be believers in God. Since Christ was sacrificed for the sins of the whole world, I think we are in the time when God is conciliated with mankind, and mankind needs to be conciliated with God. I don't think what you read in Matthew 12:31 applies to folks today because justification, not pardon, is what we have now. A pardon can be withdrawn, but there is no condemnation in Christ. So I think, even though believers may be misled by some false doctrine, those believers who have been taught torture in fire forever are saved.

[dajomaco]

In Other posts there has been a suggestion that we as people
who believe in universal reconciliation.

Should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship.

I have met men who were so adamant that there was a hell.
That me saying there was no hell was the same as saying there was no Jesus who saves.

It seems to me that the enemy is having fun at their expense,
by getting them so riled up and calling me a heretic and
don't teach any of( this crap) to the youth.

My daughter was not welcomed to discuss UR at her school.
She had a revelation of no hell in the last year of her Christian school.

The enemy mocks the atheist when I witness to him and that seems not so bad.

Do I give the enemy the opportunity to mock believers , by witnessing to church people about UR?

My definition of the enemy  mocking a believer ,
Is having the (believer ) telling a fellow believer
that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell.

Apparently this is the sin that the blood of Jesus does not cover.

[Tom]

I don't agree "that the blood of Jesus does not cover" "telling a fellow believer that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell." Usually the folks telling other folks that believe it because that's what they've been taught, but I don't think a believer is not saved just because they're misinformed. I also disagree with "we as people who believe in universal reconciliation should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship." I've been in a discussion about this recently. I think we can share the truth with fellow believers outside the church, and being in church actually shows that we agree with the false doctrine being preached. So I think it's better to communicate outside the church.

[dajomaco]

It is funny how upset the leadership of various churches get ,
when you question them about hell.

It's like some how you are trying to steal their power.

[Tom]

That's right. It's all about worldly power. That's why the church preaches the doctrine of hell fire, to control its followers with fear. "Hell," the Old English word used to translate the Greek "hades," literally "unseen," in the King James Version morphed into what it is through the deception of the church. So don't even waste your time asking the church about it because you won't get the truth. For that you need to go to the inspired written word of God accurately translated.

[eaglesway]

In Other posts there has been a suggestion that we as people
who believe in universal reconciliation.

Should continue to go to church and continue to witness and fellowship.

I have met men who were so adamant that there was a hell.
That me saying there was no hell was the same as saying there was no Jesus who saves.

It seems to me that the enemy is having fun at their expense,
by getting them so riled up and calling me a heretic and
don't teach any of( this crap) to the youth.

My daughter was not welcomed to discuss UR at her school.
She had a revelation of no hell in the last year of her Christian school.

The enemy mocks the atheist when I witness to him and that seems not so bad.

Do I give the enemy the opportunity to mock believers , by witnessing to church people about UR?

My definition of the enemy  mocking a believer ,
Is having the (believer ) telling a fellow believer
that he is going to hell because he says there is no hell.

Apparently this is the sin that the blood of Jesus does not cover.

I personally do not think rejection of the message of the salvation of all is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. The message of the salvation of al is the only gospel. many rejected Christ and the apostles and their message- even killing them, mocking them, etc.

[micah7:9]

Good :dsunny:

[Tom]

I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.

[Shev]

I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.

Well said Tom! It is important for us to also remember that by loving those who abuse us and falsely call us heretics and say all kinds of evil against us, we are demonstrating our gospel of unconditional love, even as those who believe ET demonstrate their "gospel" by walking in condemnation. The kinder we are, the gentler we are in our responses, the better testimony of the true light is shining through.

[eaglesway]

 :thumbsup:

James 3:13
Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

[Tom]

I think the fear today of being guilty of the unpardonable sin is just a result of the religion propagated by the church to control its followers with fear, and it's based on the same misreading of scripture out of context that is used to distort the evangel the same way that Paul warned about in the epistle to the Galatians. The blasphemy of the spirit that occurred when Christ performed his miracles was a direct insult to God when people were instantly healed of diseases and raised from the dead. So called miracle healings are done today by TV evangelists, but they seem to be just a scam to hustle money. The point is the unpardonable sin of the blasphemy of the spirit that happened in the presence of Christ back then was before this era of grace now when there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1). Our salvation is based on faith, not sight, as it was for those who witnessed the miracles that the Pharisees claimed were done by the power of Beezeboul, the chief of the demons. So stop letting the fear of the Roman Empire control your thoughts and deceive you into thinking you are doomed for eternity because you think you committed the unpardonable sin. There is no eternal damnation for anybody including those who committed the unpardonable sin because that judgment was limited to the eons. God loves you, and you and your loved ones, saved and unsaved, will all be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when God will be all in all.

Well said Tom! It is important for us to also remember that by loving those who abuse us and falsely call us heretics and say all kinds of evil against us, we are demonstrating our gospel of unconditional love, even as those who believe ET demonstrate their "gospel" by walking in condemnation. The kinder we are, the gentler we are in our responses, the better testimony of the true light is shining through.

I agree. The only way to overcome evil is with love. I think that is what God is demonstrating with this drama/comedy called life.

[dajomaco]

Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?

If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?

[eaglesway]

Many will say unto me in that day, "Lord, Lord" To which I will reply, "Depart from me lawless ones, I never knew you"

The Lord knows them that are His, by the secrets of their hearts.

"I am the one who tries the reins and the hearts"

I have known a person to be bound in sin and hate it and wrestle with it.

I have seen another person in the same sin revel in it.

Outwardly they may seem the same, be judged the same, seem destined to the same judgment, but man looks on the outward appearance, God looks on the heart.

A broken and a contrite heart O God, you will not cast out.

Come the day I imagine some will rejoice to discover they were deceived about eternal torment.

I can imagine that some will be disappointed, and that they may experience the fire that consumes the wood hay and stubble of their life's work.

[Tom]

Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?

If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?

I think those who believe in torture in fire forever are misinformed because they think the church is telling them the truth, but they could still be fellow believers. I also think we all may receive some "future correction" at the dais of Christ in the form of having some of our work "burned up" if it didn't have the foundation of Christ, but I think that's a different story than the condemnation that unbelievers will receive when they are judged before the great white throne. 

[eaglesway]

 :iagree:

[jabcat]

 :iagree:  two  :)

[dajomaco]

Will there be some future correction for those who believe
Jesus will torture forever those who displease the Father?

If you say Jesus is Lord.
Does it matter what you say he is Lord of?

I think those who believe in torture in fire forever are misinformed because they think the church is telling them the truth, but they could still be fellow believers. I also think we all may receive some "future correction" at the dais of Christ in the form of having some of our work "burned up" if it didn't have the foundation of Christ, but I think that's a different story than the condemnation that unbelievers will receive when they are judged before the great white throne.

I knew about hell long before I ever read a bible.
Amazing how well the teaching of hell goes with this worlds wisdom.
Spiritual discernment seems to be lacking in church leadership.

[Tom]

I was raised in a church that didn't tell us to read the Bible, but it sure told us about hell, purgatory, and limbo. I think folks who have never been to church know about hell.

[marie glen]

I think the unpardonable sin (Matthew 12:31) is the attributing of Christ's miracles done by the power of God's spirit to Beezeboul, the chief of the demons,

I believe it was a miracle of the Holy Spirit who clearly showed me there is no hell.
ETrs say the spirit that showed you there is no hell is Beezeboul chief of the demons.

Has the ETr committed the unpardonable sin?

but, at the consummation of the eons, all mankind will be more than pardoned when they are justified (Romans 5:18) and reconciled (Colossians 1:20). Now, in this era of grace, our salvation is not based on miracles but on faith, and we aren't pardoned but justified (Romans 3:24,26). There's no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1).

Even though I view the 'hell' doctrine as blasphemy against God's good nature and character.. blasphemes Him every day and keeps thousands or more from being able to "believe", I do not believe it is the unpardonable sin.. I think the unpardonable sin is a habitual hardening of the heart against God.. which makes it hard for them to believe, thus receive or be forgiven..

But I do not believe it is a 'for ever' state! but these, to me, would be of the few stubborn holdouts who make it to the lake of fire for a time of cleansing after an age of 'judgment'/review..

Romans 8:1 being assurance of salvation, regardless of some doctrinal errors, imo..

[anti_nietzsche]

I believe when Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin he was actually, before the Jews blasphemed him, trying to forgive the Jews in a special way. He had been casting out demons by the Holy Spirit and tried to arouse them to faith. But when the Jews blasphemed the Spirit in this way, Jesus said no, this way I cannot forgive you. In effect this means, for there to be forgiveness there has to be repentance. But everyone of us is brought to repentance by God, "as every knee shall bow".

[Patinak]

I believe when Jesus spoke of the unpardonable sin he was actually, before the Jews blasphemed him, trying to forgive the Jews in a special way. He had been casting out demons by the Holy Spirit and tried to arouse them to faith. But when the Jews blasphemed the Spirit in this way, Jesus said no, this way I cannot forgive you. In effect this means, for there to be forgiveness there has to be repentance. But everyone of us is brought to repentance by God, "as every knee shall bow".

Daniel,
I agree with your take on what was going on:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Personally, when I read that the blasphemy would not be forgiven in 'this age' or 'the age to come'; to me, 'this age' was in the presence of Jesus, and 'the age to come' was the time between the cross and the destruction of the Jerusalem temple, being relative to the Jews he was speaking to at the time. (my leaning at this point) - Pat

[Dandelion]

It seems to me that many sincere Christians see the negation of Hell as removing a pivotal part of Christ's teachings.

It is almost like our fellow Christians think we, meaning UR believers, are trying to circumvent punishment, and make Jesus's teachings null and void, as they see punishment as such a vital aspect of the Gospel. And, as we have said other times, to dilute the Gospel, so that the 'fear of the Lord' will not be viewed upon as something we must do.

Below is the passage about Jesus speaking to the Pharisees about the evil in men's hearts and speaking against the Holy Spirit.

Note that Jesus said that speaking against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven in this age, nor 'that which is coming'. It does not say eternity. Many Christians look at the age to come, as equalling eternity, as they believe the the Bible quote saying, 'For once a man dies and it judged', means that once you die, there is no more that can be done to save your soul. This translation below is from Young's Literal Translation Bible.

Matthew 12Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

12 At that time did Jesus go on the sabbaths through the corn, and his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck ears, and to eat,
2 and the Pharisees having seen, said to him, `Lo, thy disciples do that which it is not lawful to do on a sabbath.'
3 And he said to them, `Did ye not read what David did, when he was hungry, himself and those with him --
4 how he went into the house of God, and the loaves of the presentation did eat, which it is not lawful to him to eat, nor to those with him, except to the priests alone?
5 `Or did ye not read in the Law, that on the sabbaths the priests in the temple do profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 and I say to you, that a greater than the temple is here;
7 and if ye had known what is: Kindness I will, and not sacrifice -- ye had not condemned the blameless,
8 for the son of man is lord even of the sabbath.'
9 And having departed thence, he went to their synagogue,
10 and lo, there was a man having the hand withered, and they questioned him, saying, `Is it lawful to heal on the sabbaths?' that they might accuse him.
11 And he said to them, `What man shall be of you, who shall have one sheep, and if this may fall on the sabbaths into a ditch, will not lay hold on it and raise [it]?
12 How much better, therefore, is a man than a sheep? -- so that it is lawful on the sabbaths to do good.'
13 Then saith he to the man, `Stretch forth thy hand,' and he stretched [it] forth, and it was restored whole as the other.
14 And the Pharisees having gone forth, held a consultation against him, how they might destroy him,
15 and Jesus having known, withdrew thence, and there followed him great multitudes, and he healed them all,
16 and did charge them that they might not make him manifest,
17 that it might be fulfilled that was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying,
18 `Lo, My servant, whom I did choose, My beloved, in whom My soul did delight, I will put My Spirit upon him, and judgment to the nations he shall declare,
19 he shall not strive nor cry, nor shall any hear in the broad places his voice,
20 a bruised reed he shall not break, and smoking flax he shall not quench, till he may put forth judgment to victory,
21 and in his name shall nations hope.'
22 Then was brought to him a demoniac, blind and dumb, and he healed him, so that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said, `Is this the Son of David?'
24 but the Pharisees having heard, said, `This one doth not cast out demons, except by Beelzeboul, ruler of the demons.'
25 And Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said to them, `Every kingdom having been divided against itself is desolated, and no city or house having been divided against itself, doth stand,
26 and if the Adversary doth cast out the Adversary, against himself he was divided, how then doth his kingdom stand?
27 `And if I, by Beelzeboul, do cast out the demons, your sons -- by whom do they cast out? because of this they -- they shall be your judges.
28 `But if I, by the Spirit of God, do cast out the demons, then come already unto you did the reign of God.
29 `Or how is one able to go into the house of the strong man, and to plunder his goods, if first he may not bind the strong man? and then his house he will plunder.
30 `He who is not with me is against me, and he who is not gathering with me, doth scatter.
31 Because of this I say to you, all sin and evil speaking shall be forgiven to men, but the evil speaking of the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.
33 `Either make the tree good, and its fruit good, or make the tree bad, and its fruit bad, for from the fruit is the tree known.
34 `Brood of vipers! how are ye able to speak good things -- being evil? for out of the abundance of the heart doth the mouth speak.
35 The good man out of the good treasure of the heart doth put forth the good things, and the evil man out of the evil treasure doth put forth evil things.
36 `And I say to you, that every idle word that men may speak, they shall give for it a reckoning in a day of judgment;
37 for from thy words thou shalt be declared righteous, and from thy words thou shalt be declared unrighteous.'
38 Then answered certain of the scribes and Pharisees, saying, `Teacher, we will to see a sign from thee.'
39 And he answering said to them, `A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;
40 for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
41 `Men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah, and lo, a greater than Jonah here!
42 `A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, a greater than Solomon here!
43 `And, when the unclean spirit may go forth from the man, it doth walk through dry places seeking rest, and doth not find;
44 then it saith, I will turn back to my house whence I came forth; and having come, it findeth [it] unoccupied, swept, and adorned:
45 then doth it go, and take with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and having gone in they dwell there, and the last of that man doth become worse than the first; so shall it be also to this evil generation.'
46 And while he was yet speaking to the multitudes, lo, his mother and brethren had stood without, seeking to speak to him,
47 and one said to him, `Lo, thy mother and thy brethren do stand without, seeking to speak to thee.'
48 And he answering said to him who spake to him, `Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?'
49 And having stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, he said, `Lo, my mother and my brethren!
50 for whoever may do the will of my Father who is in the heavens, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.'

D.